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February 17, 2009

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agnes kravitz

Great post. He's right on the money with it. Remember. Queen Esther was intermarried!

Chicago Samson


Spoken once more like a neophyte; where in the Shulchan Aruch or the Rambam does it even state that a Beth Din must be made out of three Rabbis for conversion. I really feel quite embarrassed for you, I suspect you must be one of those Ba'ale Teshuvah who never studied in yeshiva.

I suggest you consider enrolling in one soon if you wish to sound remotely literate wrt this topic.

Archie Bunker

Sam, do you even know what planet you are on? Your question doesn't have a leg to stand on because for the umpteenth time, there is no such thing as a Conservative beis din.

Chicago Sam

Friends, I would not waste too much time arguing with Bunker, he has demonstrated that he is illiterate when it comes to reading original texts of Jewish law. Such amai haratzos (ignorance par excellence) is what we typically have come to expect from the Bunker archetype that values opinions and bubba ma'asehs above actual knowledge.

Let me repeat my earlier challenge: Show me where in Hilchos Gerim (in Yoreh Deah) the law that would allow anyone or any Beis Din to retroactively negate a convert's status? I honestly don't expect an answer, I doubt Bunker even knows how to translate a Siddur or Thillim (Psalms), let alone read and understand Talmudic Aramaic or understand Biblical Hebrew.

The Torah lists 36 prohibitions against mistreating the ger, and I dare say that a lot of self-righteous zealots will have plenty to answer for their mistreatment of these wonderful Jews by Choice.

itchiemayer

neo - sorry for you, but Arch is right.

Archie Bunker

Pish Posh, you are dead wrong. EVen the original Torah interpretations of all future rabbis was transmitted at Sinai.

And you are very confused. The mix up of nations only pertains to certain non-Jewish nations with a special status. Any time there is any doubt as to Jewish lineage, they must convert.

Archie Bunker

Neo, are you the COnservative flag bearer? You've got all their talking points to twist Torah out of context down to a tee.

ANd you are either a liar or a blithering ignorant idiot with almost everything you say. A woman does not become a Sotah so easily based on someone's say so. And that's just one example.

PIshPosh

God gave Torah at Har Sinai, he did not give Moshe Rabbeinu Judaism. We alreay know that since the nations are mixed up that you cant tell who falls under the ban of intermarriage and who dosent. How many so called Jews are actually the descendants of non jews? Plenty including even the pious ones.
Some of our greatest ancestors have come from a non Israelite heritage and Judaism, the bastardization of Torah and the self righteous proclamations of the Perushim does not make it right in every thing that it says is what the Torah wants you to do.

Neo-Conservaguy

Whatever it is they are keeping alive, I would not call it Judaism. There is only one Judaism, and that is Torah Judaism, which requires shabbos observance, kashrus observance, taharas mishpocha, no gay marriage, no inter-marriage and many other issues on which the other branches are clearly lacking any Torah foundation.

Really? "Torah Judaism"? So, I can have multiple wives? And, if I want to accuse her of adultery - a rather clever way of getting out of paying for divorce per the ketubah - I can make her endure the ritual of Sota? We can add some slaves to the mix here are well - that should make for some interesting changes around the household.

Hint: "Torah Judaism" died with the sadducees, and good riddance. We practice "Rabbinic Judaism", that while based on Torah, most assuredly has changed and progressed. It's a good thing, really.

itchiemayer

Yochanan HaLevi - I understand. However, the reform and conservative movements are a huge reason why Jews are becoming unaffiliated, intermarrying, etc.. Clearly they are not nurturing Jewish neshomas. If the reform and conservative movements had a track record of keeping their members within the faith, marrying within the faith, then I would be much more tolerant of them. However, the opposite is true. For every one like you who it did light a spark which caused you to seek further, there are many more that were raised in reform or conservative temples and either unaffiliate, intermarry, both, or just are uninspired Jewishly. I think those movements do far more harm than good. By the way, I wonder how many temples would use a Hertz Chumash today. On a side note, I have a cousin who married a non-jewish man. Their daughter, obviously a Jew, had her bas mitzva recently in a reform temple so I did not attend (it was out of town so I got out of it easily). Anyhow, my gift to her was a Stone chumash in hopes that she would read it and a spark would be lit. I realize there is a good chance it will remain on the shelf, but you never know.

Yochanan Lavie

Itchie: As an ex-Reform Jew, I am not thrilled with that ideology either. However, given the choice of all or nothing, most people prefer nothing. At least they're not joining churches, or becoming atheists, which is what would happen in all probability. If someone tried to shove Orthodoxy down my throat, I would have ran the other way. Although I'm not really Orthodox, I lean towards it, because I came to it on my own. If we didn't have a Reform Temple to go to (which used the Hertz Chumash, which I read while bored during services) paradoxically (no pun intended, for once) I never would have stepped foot in an Orthodox shul.

Itchiemayer

Clearly, these "Apikorsim" are doing a damn good job keeping Judaism alive in their communities, so sayeth Chitown Sam.

Whatever it is they are keeping alive, I would not call it Judaism. There is only one Judaism, and that is Torah Judaism, which requires shabbos observance, kashrus observance, taharas mishpocha, no gay marriage, no inter-marriage and many other issues on which the other branches are clearly lacking any Torah foundation.

Of course, I agree that many of their constituents are Jewish, but these apikoris Rabbis are giving them a false idea of what the Torah is.

I was at a baby naming of a goyishe baby (don't ask), and the woman reform Rabbi, well known here, "Rabbi" Susan Talve was quoting the Ba'al Shem Tov. My thoughts were that she should quote the Reform gedolim as the BST would be turning over in his grave at being quoted in this setting. I kind of doubt they have their own "gedolim".

By the way, some may resent that I put "Rabbi" with respect to a non-orthodox one. That is because a Rabbi is a teacher, and one who teaches things which are false cannot have that title. Kind of like I would write "Rabbi" Sholom Rubashkin.

Archie Bunker

Neo really has a knack for uttering misnomers that epitomize pot calls the kettle black.

Here goes again this smug COnservative heretic lecturing religious Jews about "mangling" Torah and "lost" tradition. As Tiggr would say, that's what the Conservative do best.

And it's precisely for these reasons that their offspring will one day be known as Neo-Conserva-Goys as they will feel no compunction marrying out of the faith and becoming forever "lost" indeed.

Neo-Conservaguy

Simon Rose, you are dead wrong. Sadly secular Jews like yourself falsely claim that every bit of the Oral Torah transmitted to Moses at Sinai was "made up by rabbis".

Not every bit, just most bits, and then was transmitted by, among others, R. Meir - the son of a GER. We'll never know, because if the written Torah comes to us in the mangled state as we know it, all the more so for oral teachings. So what? The Sages were not concerned with this litmus test of faith that you propose - they cared about things that mattered: understanding halacha that would work for the Jewish People. Something that is, sadly, a lost tradition for those like you.

Dave Marshall

Archie, I fully understood the points you made. I regard your last posting as a kind of "shoot the messenger" tactic.
You have never once addressed the shrinking demographics of Jews as a whole.
I also fully understand that you are deeply scared of promoting Judaism. You hide this deep fear behind all kinds of rationalizations supposedly based on the most perfect form of Judaism known ie. your form. In other words it's "my way or the highway". I bet even if we could get millions of converts to submit to the most strict form of Orthodoxy, you would still find fault. Why. Because you are fearful.
I regard your last statement as tantamount to an ad hominem attack.
I will not waste my time, nor yours further discussing. I am absolutely convinced that I am right, and that you are wrong.
G-d willing, we will both be alive 50 years from now, and we'll see who's right.

Equal Ti me

--Unequal slime, your dishonest word games are really boring.--

Coming from you - that really says something.

You can't find the post where I made the claim you accuse me of (perhaps, because said post does not exist?) so again, you resort to name calling.

Someone above wrote referring to you - "in fact, I am starting to wonder if it's really Shmarya in disguise, pulling everyone's leg!".

I'd like to think this isn't the case - but again, your behavior is simply not that of an Orthodox rabbi - or ANY rabbi, and it seems very VERY clear that whoever you are, your goal is not to argue, but to stain Orthodox Judaism.

Archie Bunker

Regarding Rabbi Horowitz, he is very mellow but would still be attacked and mocked by some of the lowlives here while he just went about his business of being a nice guy believer in G-d.

People in his position who hold a pulpit and/or major office at an organization must refrain from public shows of putting the scum in their place. I have no such restrictions.

Archie Bunker

Simon Rose, you are dead wrong. Sadly secular Jews like yourself falsely claim that every bit of the Oral Torah transmitted to Moses at Sinai was "made up by rabbis".

Archie Bunker

Dave Marshall, all the points made to you obviously flew right over your head. I just wish you knew enough that you wouldn't waste your time with that futile pipe dream.

Archie Bunker

Sam, you are out to lunch and sadly full of hatred for orthodox Jews while you kiss the derrieres of heretics.

Now I finally understand the concept of "pluralism" touted by YCT.

WoolSilkCotton

YL, excellent puns and bon mots throughout the day!

I will indeed breathe, but with official protest that I am doing it on my own accord, and not because someone told me to do so.

Yochanan Lavie

Chicago Sam, good points. Most of us non-ghetto Jews just don't like being told what to do.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | February 18, 2009 at 07:20 PM

"Breathe!"

Simon: If chareidi standards were in place in biblical times, we'd be Ruthless.

Chicago: Given the choice of all or nothing, most people take nothing.

Dave: I think it will 3 million beggars and less than a million MO, because their kids are taught and indoctrinated by chareidim and their pulpits are increasingly manned by such. It's MO's own fault for chosing Ortho-yuppism over Jewish skills.

WoolSilkCotton

Chicago Sam, good points. Most of us non-ghetto Jews just don't like being told what to do.

Dave Marshall

Yochanan and Neo, thanks for your support.
Itchie, you are so stridently denouncing my ideas- quote: "I DON'T WANT A WATERED-DOWN JEWISH PEOPLE"- in capital letters, yet already ! Sure, you'll get a very "concentrated" Jewish people- an over-worked group of possibly 2 to 3 million Modern Orthodox and about 1 million Haredi quasi-beggars. Is that what you really want? It's your choice. G-d helps those who help themselves.
I am telling you for absolute certain that those Modern Orthodox are going to get very fed up in a few years of supporting about 1 million Haredi quasi-beggars.
Archie, you put up a straw man about the American Conservative movement's acceptance of gay ordination. I repeatedly said that I deplore and deeply regret the American Conservative movement's gutlessness on the issue of Jewish family values, and caving in to political correctness. However there is still Israeli Masorti, South American Masorti, and Modern Orthodox.
I think you and Itchie are so comfortable with the present situation of the Jewish people, and so happy with the supposed "quality instead of quantity argument" that you are failing to understand, if we don't encourage and talk to those non-Jews who are interested in converting to Judaism, we're going to be a shrinking group. Do you not understand the word "shrinking"?
We're not talking about stable numbers here, we're talking about shrinking.
I throw out the challenge to anyone on this website. If you are interested in the growth of the Jewish people, please help me and e-mail me at superdave8002@hotmail.com and we will solve this problem, with G-d's help, of course. Because G-d helps those who help themselves, not people who sit on their behinds.

WoolSilkCotton

++Dr. Dave | February 18, 2009 at 06:20 PM++

Years ago, my parents told me the same thing about life in pre-war Eastern Europe.
A respected religious Jew was called 'ehrlich', and a sleazy religious Jew was called 'frum'.
I guess some things haven't changed.

Chicago Sam

Clearly, these "Apikorsim" are doing a damn good job keeping Judaism alive in their communities; I suppose the zealots would prefer that either (1)these synagogues be all frum (2) or that these synagogues simply assimilate and disappear from Jewish life altogether.>>

I forgot to add that most of the outer Jewish communities would not ever want to be frum, so assimilation is the only alternative--the real issue is that of autonomy, a reality that Haredi wish to snuff out in their dreams and political machinations.

Simon Rose

There was NO conversion process in the Torah or Tanach

Conversion was achieved through naturalization of women or men coming into contact with the Hebrews or Israelites through marriage.

The fact is the Rabbi's sect created this whole " the mother must be Jewish" and strict conversion processes etc...

Even Ruth is proof that simple acceptance of Jewish customs in the basic sense was enough to be a Jew or part of the tribe.

IMO the Jews need to accept as many people who would like to be part of our people and will follow basic Jewish life styles and basic religious tenants, another words you don't need to be Haredi or Orthodox to be a legit Jew.

the Heilige Rebbe of Otisville

Maybe there's something to right-Orthodox Judaism. That Archie is such a mensch!"


Would not happen, Shmarya likes him here because he proves his view of haredi Jews as small mind bigots and crooks. If someone like rabbi Yakov Horowitz was posting here, Shmarya would not know what to do

Chicago Sam

I find it amazing how the zealots among us are so willing to carte blanche designate the rabbis who serve non-Orthodox synagogues as Apikorsim (a term these folks have yet to define in non-circular words).

Clearly, these "Apikorsim" are doing a damn good job keeping Judaism alive in their communities; I suppose the zealots would prefer that either (1)these synagogues be all frum (2) or that these synagogues simply assimilate and disappear from Jewish life altogether.

Haredi Jews owe these "Apikorsim" a debt of gratitude for keeping Judaism intact within their communities, for it ought to be obvious even to the most dim-witted among the non-OJ zealots, the rabbanim are doing a great service for all Israel.

Let's hear it for religious pluralism! BTW, the Haredi hegemony in Israel is soon about to dissolve once the new Israeli govt is established--and when that happens, the Haredi political element of Israel will lose their political power; oh well ...

Dr. Dave

Archie et al.

Once upon a time, a religious Jew was known as an "ehrlicher" yid. Now he is "frum", and that, unfortunately,has made all the difference in the world.

Yochanan Lavie

Herzl thought that out of ignorance, not malice. As he got older, he began to appreciate religion more, and the role it has played in keeping our people together. That said, I don't think he would have wanted a theocracy, because he wanted a Jewish State for all, not just the Orthodox.

And thanks for your kind words. One catches flies with honey, not vinegar.

Archie Bunker

The problem with Herzl until the end is his idea of a paradoxical secular Zionism as well as Socialist "utopia" that goes against everything in the Torah.

Archie Bunker

Unequal slime, your dishonest word games are really boring. You need a makeover.

Archie Bunker

Yochanan, I can assure you that although that is not the only pshat, there is NO opinion or pshat that Moshe Rabeinu went anywhere near that Black woman. Go through the 100s of commentaries and you will not find it anywhere. And the reason is because of Kush's lineage.

And I doth protest that you put yourself in the same boat as the others. You are a baal madreiga and light years beyond them.

I think that you have not finished your journey in learning about Judaism and in stark contrast to the others, you do not despise orthodox Jews with a hatred that seems irrational, yet which is very malevolently rational & calculated.

Archie Bunker

Shore,

I had missed that it was a female specific chromosome and I will take your word for it. Even still, there were plenty of proper female converts as well.

In one very large case, the entire Khazar Kingdom converted. After massacres by Genghis Khan and his horde, the remnants of this community settled in Eastern Europe.

Yochanan Lavie

Archie: We disagree like oil and water, yet you don't slime me, and I don't slime you. I am just as much a heretic as WSC or anyone else. Why not extend the same meschlichtkeit to them you extend me ESPECIALLY if you don't think they'll reciprocate. Then they might think: "Maybe there's something to right-Orthodox Judaism. That Archie is such a mensch!"

I know you can do it.

Equal T ime

--YOU WERE until Yochanan spoke up--

No, Archie - that simply isn't true. There is no post in this thread or any other that you can reference where I deny that any rapes took place.

--I may not be a "big enough man" but you are the SMALLEST man to ever "debate" here.--

And again - by ducking issues and relying solely on personal attacks, you prove many of my points.

The least being that you are lying when you claim to be an Orthodox rabbi - because no legitimate OJ rabbi would act as shamefully as you do - no legitimate OJ rabbi would be unable to produce sources when challenged - no legitimate OJ rabbi would engage in the character assassination that you engage in at the absolute expense of any and all discussion.

I have in the past jokingly prodded you by accusing you of being a liberal Jew. I genuinely think you are. A liberal Jew creating an ugly character that everyone reading will associate falsely with Orthodoxy.

Yochanan Lavie

Archie:

1. That is one interpretation of the psuk. Even I can tell it's not pshut pshat. Moshe miscegenated, unless the marriage wasn't consummated, which is unlikely. It was a lawful marriage I'm sure- no biggie.

2. Herzl was a tinok shenishba, raised w/o any Jewish education. Uganda and Madagascar were supposed to be temporary refuges. He visited Eretz, and wrote about it in Altneuland. It is a chareidi error to say he thought Africa was as good as Eretz. When he was older, he became a semi-baal teshuvah. Some Modern Orthodox rabbis befriended him, and he started goig to shul regularly and learning. Alas, it was too late; he was so exhausted with getting apathetic Jews and hostile Turks to be enthused about Israel that he died young. Had he lived, I am sure he would have become more observant. But chareidim continue to denegrate him- in Hebrew!

Thanks for keeping the tone civil. You have always been a gentleman to me, even when we disagree. Be the bigger man when others are playing you.

face

My dream is to dance at Shmarya's Chasuna at the backyard BBQ in Compton.

Walking Along the Shore

Even if the majority of European DNA is traced to before the Crusades, there were still proper conversions before that time just as their were rapes before such time. There were Viking marauders, highway robbers and local ruffians

This article is talking about the genetic contributions of non-Jewish (or non-Jewish born) women.

If your proposed answer were correct, then the Y-chromosomal DNA similarity between Jewish males world wide would not occur.

If that many gentile marauders and Crusaders raped to the degree that Ashkenazic Jewish women differ in their DNA from other Jewish women, then, seeing as the rapists were males and the contributors of the Y-chomosome, Ashkenazic Jewish males would have substantially differing Y-chromosomes compared to other Jewish males. However, they do not.

This, therefore, points to the non-Jewish influence on Ashkenazic genetic ancestry being largely one-sided, falling on the side of it being mostly non-Jewish females.


ML

Keep convincing yourself, Archie. Keep deflecting. It's all about someone else, right? It's all THEIR fault, not yours.

Will G-d accept those excuses? Will your children?

And no, I have no other alter egos. Nice try.

Itchiemayer

WSC - That last comment was as hateful a comment as I have seen on this blog. I respect your right to write it, but I just thought I would point out what could be perceived as hypocritical.

Archie Bunker

COnsidering the hatred that WoolSilk starts spewing first, anyone who is the target of it would have to be out of their minds not to hate him back. In his case, the target of his deep hatred is orthodox Jews for the reasons mentioned.

The guy is so consumed & twisted that every post for a while recently he repeated a false story he concocted that the majority of men in the closest orthodox outpost near his home are hanging out at porno shops.

Very mature I will add for the grown baby WSC who is 52 years old.

WoolSIlkCotton

ML, the troll is the perfect voice for black hat Judaism. He confirms what the rest of us always suspected the black hats were thinking about us.
Maybe it's good to have a daily reminder of the hate and ugliness that lurks in the mind beneath so many of the black hats, and that's why Shmarya lets him keep belching.

Archie Bunker

While no one is perfect and I have gone a little over the line sometimes with certain posters, I have no misgivings slamming jerks like Shmarya & WSC and other heretics who hate orthodox Jews with a passion and get perverse satisfaction from smearing them.

I also have no plans on apologizing to figures like Rangel when all I do is repeat exposes already published about them.

"ML" .... the 3rd alter ego for Maven / alternative childcare?

Itchiemayer

ML - I do agree we should be careful with our speech and our pen. Nevertheless, noone should turn away from God because of something they read on this or any blog.

I do applaud Shmarya's no censorship policy.

ML

Archie,

I know you think you're doing a service (somehow) and that you've got it all. I know you think that your words are only 'hurting' people who deserve it anyway.

But this is a blog. These posts of yours will be here forever. Forever.

Now if it was just a few 'liberal' who's goat you were out to get, that's one thing.

But for every good person who is hurt by what you write, you will have to answer for it to the Almighty. And since the totality of your postings here, which will remain forever, is quite large, you will likely be spending all of HaOlam HaBa answering for why you chose to hurt so many people.

Your hatred, racism, and general attitude toward fellow Jews and fellow humans is baffling. You don't have to be mean. You don't have to act and write like an arrogent jerk, but you choose to do so.

As long as you remember that everything you write here G-d reads, then fine go ahead. Everyone who is turned away from G-d by what you write, everyone who is hurt and harmed by what you write, you will be held accountable. Not by me, by by G-d.

Be careful with your speech and with your pen.

I know that you will attack me personally, I'm okay with that. I know that you will question my observance, instead of looking within. I'm okay with that too.

Just ask yourself why? And remember, G-d knows the answer.

WoolSilkCotton

Equal baby, I agree with you, but in the case of an internet troll, any attention he gets satisfies him. Any response to him, no matter how well argued,validates the drek he posts. The troll only seeks attention; he doesn't care if you agree with him or not- in fact, he relishes it when you don't agree with him.

That being said, I salute your ongoing efforts to disqualify the troll at every opportunity. The vast majority of us here know that he is bogus; in fact, I am starting to wonder if it's really Shmarya in disguise, pulling everyone's leg! That would explain it nicely!

Archie Bunker

"interested in Judaism to various degrees"

Like WSC having sex with non-Jewish women & pretending to be interested.

Archie Bunker

"No one is arguing the rapes"

YOU WERE until Yochanan spoke up and stopped your retarded denials.

I also never said spoke of "entirety". You did as a twisted effort to make me look stupid.

I may not be a "big enough man" but you are the SMALLEST man to ever "debate" here.

Archie Bunker

Translation of WoolSilkCotton:

Hey guys, I am a failed BT Lubavitcher who left the fold to have sex with my Irish Catholic girlfriend and since orthodox Jews follow the Torah that classiifies this as a cardinal sin, I hate their guts and wish they would just become extinct, even though that's exactly where I'm headed.

Archie Bunker

Yochanan, the Sages of the Talmud write what I said specifically. Also Kush comes from Canaan as stated in the Torah who Abraham says in the Torah none of his descendents should marry. (got that Shmarya?)

""You complain that she's black; I'll make you even whiter!"

There are plenty of Blacks who try to make themselves whiter out of shame. Whether it's complex medical procedures a la Michael Jackson or the ridiculous belief that suntan lotion does the trick. Charlie Rangel was once caught in an audit misusing taxpayer funds while flying first class by ordering everything off the cart, including suntan lotion. The WSJ mockingly "speculated" that Rangel may have applied it to his chicken cordon bleu to make sure it did not overcook.

WoolSilkCotton

Itchie, you are wise enough to know that statistics can be presented any way you want to.

The most important statistic to me is the number 52. That is my number of years on this planet, observing the evolution of Judaism in the metro-NY/NJ area. I see decades of ongoing polarization and isolation self-inflicted by the black hat crowd, and a large mass of the rest of us Jews of various backgrounds, interested in Judaism to various degrees, but adamant about not wanted to be what we see orthodoxy as being.

Equal Ti me

--Here is a good explanation of what's going on here,--

I know exactly what is going on - I am just a bit opffended that he is masquerading as a rabbi to do it.

Equal Ti me

--The things I cite are historical facts that do not have to be proven--

No one is arguing the rapes - what IS being argued is your contention thatthey explaining the entirety of the intermingled DNA - especially in the face of genetic evidence that disagrees.

OK - I get it. You have nothing, and are not a big enough man to admit it.

No problem.

Itchiemayer

WSC - The statistics Archie cited speak for themselves.

WoolSilkCotton

Equal Time, my cyber-friend:

Here is a good explanation of what's going on here, and how you can save a lot of energy by not responding to an internet troll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Archie Bunker

"Herzl's crackpot theory that there would be a Jewish State, preferably in Palestine"

Well, that guy who didn't have a bris mila first wanted to take either Uganda or Madagascar first. Jews would have been mince meat for the likes of Idi Amin and Communist guerillas.

Archie Bunker

Miriam was punished because of the untrue insinuation that Moshe had something going on with the Black woman.

You are confused if you ask why Moshe was not punished. As I said, he had nothing to do with that Black woman in Ethiopia. She was gifted to him when he was made King but he never went near her.

WoolSilkCotton

90% of American Jews vote with their feet every Saturday morning by not going to an orthodox shul.
Until the ortho's drop their medieval 'our sages were infallible, and so you must not change anything' mindset, it's ortho that's doomed. More babies does not equal more orthodox.

A religion where everyone must be made to do what they don't really want to do, is heading in the wrong direction. People don't respond to fear and guilt like they used to. Itchie and Isaac, please come up with better ideas for the future of Judaism.

Yochanan Lavie

א וַתְּדַבֵּר מִרְיָם וְאַהֲרֹן בְּמֹשֶׁה, עַל-אֹדוֹת הָאִשָּׁה הַכֻּשִׁית אֲשֶׁר לָקָח: כִּי-אִשָּׁה כֻשִׁית, לָקָח. 1

And Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married; for he had married a Cushite woman.

י וְהֶעָנָן, סָר מֵעַל הָאֹהֶל, וְהִנֵּה מִרְיָם, מְצֹרַעַת כַּשָּׁלֶג; וַיִּפֶן אַהֲרֹן אֶל-מִרְיָם, וְהִנֵּה מְצֹרָעַת.


10 And when the cloud was removed from over the Tent, behold, Miriam was leprous, as white as snow; and Aaron looked upon Miriam; and, behold, she was leprous.

This is the 1917 JPS translation, which is a Jewish translation, albeit one influenced at times buyy the KJV. (The more recent JPS is better, but is not online).

Clearly pshat said that Moshe married a Cushite; usually understood to mean Ethiopian or black African. Secular scholars think it meant from Upper Egypt/Sudan, whose people were of mixed Black African, Semitic, and North African (dark caucasian) ancestry. That would still make the Cushite a shade or so darker than the Semitic Jews, who themselves were of dark-olive complexion (this is before they went north and married local women, who "whitened" their color).

Tzara'at, mistranslated as leprosy, are snowy scales, like psoriasis. The punishment is midah keneged midah: "You complain that she's black; I'll make you even whiter!" (This disease was a punishment from God, and found only in miqra.)

Following Occam's Razor (the simplest explanation is usually the best), if the miqra can best be understood by pshat, that is what I go by. If pshat seems to contradict known facts, then I go by an allegorical/homeletical reading, as rationalist rishonim such as Saadia and Rambam advocate.

I see no good reason to reject the idea that Moshe married a black woman; whether the verse indirectly refers to Tzipporah or a second wife. I can see many bad reasons to use mental gymnastics to deny pshat.

Archie Bunker

Blah blah blah, "equal time".

The things I cite are historical facts that do not have to be proven just like the Holocaust & WWII need not be proven, except to lunatics.

ANd there are plenty of mentions in Jewish writings over the centuries about converts & rapes. If you weren't so uneducated you would be familiar with it.

Equal Ti me

--Miriam was not punished regarding her brother's "wife" but for making a disparaging remark about a Black woman who Moses never lived with or even looked at. She was a Black Kushite descended from Canaan who the forefathers implored that no Jew should marry. (Do you get that, Shmarya?)--


If it was so wrong - why then did HaShem punish Miriam and not Moshe?

Equal Ti me

--Unequal Time, you really are a fool.--

And you continue to make my case with each and every nasty post you make.

--I said that over the course of 1000 years there were proper converts and rape cases in Europe that could account for the DNA findings.--

And I said prove it - and you have failed to produce a single source in support.

The problem you have is that genetic research is to the point (if you'd read the two studies I've already referenced, you'd know this) that it can effectively establish WHEN a genetic string enters the mix AND whether it entered on the matralineal or patralineal side.

THIS is how we know that Kohainim has a common anscestor that joined on the father's side ~5000 years ago - THIS is the evidence that actually supports the article Shmarya posted to began the thread (matralineal DNA added ~3000 years ago v. YOUR scenarion where it would be patralineal - less than 1000 years ago).

He has facts - you have insults, wishes and unsupported opinions.

I'll leave it to the readers to determine who the real foll is in this discussion.

Archie Bunker

Sorry to put the kibosh on PishPosh but his/her logic is difficult to follow.

While it's true that acceptance of mitzvos is the determining factor to receive a Jewish soul, here as elsewhere the Torah vests in the rabbis the authority to set up structures that must be followed. The Torah actually commands the Jewish people to listen to the rabbis.

Miriam was not punished regarding her brother's "wife" but for making a disparaging remark about a Black woman who Moses never lived with or even looked at. She was a Black Kushite descended from Canaan who the forefathers implored that no Jew should marry. (Do you get that, Shmarya?)

Yochanan Lavie

Archie: You are a valuable resource when you make the right-centrist Orthodox case. I don't FM to become an amen choir. But you loose me when you make fun of people's screen names, or attack their personal integrity. And I don't like it when people do it to you. Stick to the issues, please.

Yes, it's true that valid conversions and ch'v'sh rapes occured in the past. But it is easy nowadays to trace both paternal and maternal lineages. The Y chromosome is passed (either unchanged or at a predictable rate of mutation) from the father. The mitochondrial DNA is passed (either unchanged or at a predictable rate of mutation) from the mother. That way, scientists can tell if Hagar the Horrible, or Helga was your ancestor.

Itchie: Neo was merely reporting on what he sees in his community. It may just mean that Orthodox Jews are moving to other areas, and no one is replacing them in his area. He is not dishonest. Personally, I think Reform, Recon, and conservative will merge, as R&R become more traditionally flavored, and conservative becomes more "progressive." But I could be wrong.

Dave Marshall's idea is as absurd and quixotic as Herzl's crackpot theory that there would be a Jewish State, preferably in Palestine, in 50 years. We all know how that turned out.

Itchiemayer

Arch's comments about percentage of Jews who intermarry from the different branches of Judaism really says it all. Game over.
Reform and conservative Judaism, they are dying. It's over. They have lost because they have no core principles other than making people feel good by permitting them to do whatever they want. These numbers are extremely relevant and noone can argue against the picture they paint, that the liberal streams are dying.

Itchiemayer

I would call the "Rabbis" in the conservative, reform, and reconstructionist groups to be apikorsim. I believe they know what they are doing, going against the ways of the Torah in a blatant manner (as with their policies with regard to homosexuals), and they deceive their congregants into thinking that which is not ok, is ok. I do not call their followers apikorsim because they don't know better, and deserve the benefit of the doubt. I am not sure how these leaders who, in most cases will allow mixed marriages and in some cases gay marriages can be considered anything but apikorsim.

Dave Marshall, you are truly wasting your time with a hopeless fantasy. G-d promised that the Jewish people will never disappear. Sadly however, it is those who stray from the Torah who write their own obituary. Those who stay true to the Torah are the manifestation of the promise.
Posted by: Archie Bunker

Archibald - Amen to that, brother. I even here the Jeffersons, next door, giving you a standing ovation!

PIshPosh

Hashem gave the Torah at Har Sinai, not Judaism. The point is that when Israelites took wifes outside of the tribe the wifes were expected to follow the husbands lead in all things.
Like Ruth, any non Jewish woman who tells her Jewish boyfriend that his God will be her God, is acceptable in Hashems eyes.
The Rabbis are the ones who made a big to do about studying for conversion etc. The Torah is very clear on its demands on the Israelite nation. Miriam got punished for her shamefull behavior towards her brothers wife. The Rabbis also are worthy of leprosy for disdaining the non Israeiite/Jewish partner in a marriage.

Solomon sinned for having wifes that followed Elilim Achairim, strange Gods. If they all had been dedicated to the one true Borei Olam, it wouldnt have mattered one iota where they came from.

Archie Bunker

"safek d'oraita l'humra; safek d'rabbanan l'kula"

Nothing of the sort. Try reading what I wrote again as it is almost a word for word translation from the Hebrew.

"my kids attend religious day schools"

Let's see if they make it to the next generation as Jews.

"Will Your Grandchildren Be Jews?"
REVISTED 10 YEARS LATER

By: Antony Gordon and Richard Horowitz[1]

Intermarriage Rates and the Dwindling Jewish Population

The NJPS 2000 found that 47% of Jews who married in the past five years had wed non-Jews, up from a readjusted intermarriage figure of 43% a decade ago. The rate of intermarriage has risen dramatically in the past 30 years, from an average of 9% before 1965 to 52% in 1990.

The 1990 NJPS indicated that Secular, Reform and Conservative Jews are far more likely to intermarry than Orthodox Jews. Secular Jews have doubled their intermarriage rate, while Reform and Conservative Jews have tripled theirs. Secular Jews in the 18 to 39 year age group have an intermarriage rate of 72%, while those over age 39 have an intermarriage rate of 35%. Younger Reform Jews now at a 53% rate, compared to a 16% rate for the older group. Among younger Conservative Jews, the intermarriage rate has increased to 37%, compared to 10% for those over age 39. Only Orthodox Jews have reversed this trend: Their intermarriage rate has fallen from 10% among those over 39 to 3% of the 18-39 group today.

Archie Bunker

I can't sleep on the right night as this thread is still lively with more nonsense from Neo-preservative and Son of Sam.

Just listen to the nerve of Neo. His COnservative come along after thousands of years to make a break with Torah Judaism ans he is chewing out others about supposedly creating divisions.

And you can't make this stuff up. He grunts about "hateful rhetoric of Orthodoxy" when he is the most acerbic poster on this blog.

Sam, you keep repeating the same bubkis that the COnservative have valid batei din. That doesn't even deserve a response.

How dare YOU twist the Shulchan Aruch and Rishonim to apply to disqualified heretics.

The poskim outline the definition of a heretic. I'm not going to get sucked into silly exercises with you while you try to distort the Torah here too.

Neo-Conservaguy

Neo-preservative is either a liar or incredibly ignorant (or both).

Again, there is a specific halacha that it is forbidden to seek out every leniency but Neo wouldn't be able to justify his pathetic COnservative existence unless he denied it.

Are you referring to "safek d'oraita l'humra; safek d'rabbanan l'kula", or something else? Every time previously I've asked you for specific text references you've blustered and avoided providing them. Put up.

The guy is also a practical joker. It may be possible that one ortho shul near him is declining but that is the story of the Conservative movement's life. Every month, there are temples closing with the scattered remnants merging with each other.

The simple fact is that all three Orthodox shuls in my area are at bare minimum levels to keep the lights on. Those shuls once were full with hundred of families.

It's precisely because they don't follow halacha that their kids have no interest in even a watered down semblance of Judaism and marry out of the faith.

Dodos like Neo are "shining" examples how the the entire movement is going the way of the Dodo.

My shul is usually packed on Shabbat, my kids attend religious day schools, and you are an idiot.

Chicago Samson

I find it remarkable that despite Archie's Haredi bravado, neither he or his colleagues have yet to answer my original challenge that one Beth Din has the right to invalidate another Beth Din's converts. Notice my friend has yet to substantiate a scintilla of evidence cited from the Shulchan Aruch, or for that matter from the MT. In Talmudic nomenclature, I say LHDM.

You clearly do not know the texts you are attempting to talk about, your lack of textual knowledge in the Shulchan Aruch is embarrassing, as it is alarming. Study the Hilchot Gerim, and you will see that you are dead wrong re/ the negation of Beth Din's conversions.

You should not try to be holier than the great Rishonim and Acharonim who never utilized or subterfuge such pseudo-piety in their deliberations of the Halacha.

BTW, Care to define an Apikoris???

Neo-Conservaguy


Chicago Sam - I am skeptical of your claim that there are several MO communities that have accepted a conservative conversion. How can Rabbis that preach apikorsis, which by definition includes all conservative "Rabbis", convert anyone to Judaism. I find this very difficult to believe. Moreover, any MO communities which allow this are doing a disservice to the "converts".
Dave Marshall - We don't have to have big numbers to be a light unto the world. The fact is reform and conservative (what a misnomer) Judaism are dying. I DON'T WANT A WATERED DOWN JEWISH PEOPLE.

You have drunk the kool-aid, which has led you to these conclusions. But, what if your basic premises are mistaken? Think about it. What if: many Conservative rabbis encourage their congregants to observe more mitsvoth, including being shomer Shabbat? What if the definition of "apikorsis" has been in the eye of the person spitting it for thousands of years, and it has changed now to suit the hateful rhetoric of Orthodoxy? What if: your desire to avoid "a watered down Jewish People" is, in historic fact, a modern bizarre invention of thought that occurred as a result of the breaking up of Askenazi Jews into 3-4 political/theological groups? What if: in traditional Jewish groups, there was always a diversity of thought and practice, and the rabbinic leadership understood that fact?

Archie Bunker

Shmarya is trying to weasel his way out of a jam with misleading information again, but what else is new?

Even if the majority of European DNA is traced to before the Crusades, there were still proper conversions before that time just as their were rapes before such time. There were Viking marauders, highway robbers and local ruffians all over the place.

Shmarya thinks that manufacturing a historical fiction about improper conversions will help him make violating halacha easier in today's age as a widespread thing.

Doesn't he wish.

Archie Bunker

Now it makes sense why WoolStink hates orthodox Jews so much. It's bad enough that he was once a failed Lubab but he resents that orthodox Jews follow teachings that utterly oppose his choice of bed mate.

No wonder he went on & on about guilt. He lives with guilt inspired hatred every day. What a miserable man and poor excuse for a Jew.

Archie Bunker

"anyone who feels pink pants are mens clothing is just wrong"

I think a whole host of "guys" including RIchard Simmons & Elton John would be offended by that statement.

Archie Bunker

"cherry picking is a proud Jewish tradition going back thousands of years"

Neo-preservative is either a liar or incredibly ignorant (or both).

Again, there is a specific halacha that it is forbidden to seek out every leniency but Neo wouldn't be able to justify his pathetic COnservative existence unless he denied it.

The guy is also a practical joker. It may be possible that one ortho shul near him is declining but that is the story of the Conservative movement's life. Every month, there are temples closing with the scattered remnants merging with each other.

It's precisely because they don't follow halacha that their kids have no interest in even a watered down semblance of Judaism and marry out of the faith.

Dodos like Neo are "shining" examples how the the entire movement is going the way of the Dodo.

Archie Bunker

Sam, those left-wing modern orthodox rabbis are unfortunately rubberstamping the great disservice perpetrated by the COnservative. While it is technically possible in the odd case for a convert to have sincere kabalas ol mitzvos in front of a fake beis din, the halacha is that ANY Conservative conversion must be redone out of doubt. Any so called modern orthodox rabbi who ignores this is violating halacha on that end AND because he is giving credence to heretics.

Get a clue, please.

And Charedi molesters are "leading" rabbis? Nice try at smearing the Charedi world. Scum like Mondrowitz were further down the totem pole than modern orthodox perverts like Lanner.

Your hatred of anyone to the right of Avi Weiss is very apparent.

Archie Bunker

Dave Marshall, you are truly wasting your time with a hopeless fantasy. G-d promised that the Jewish people will never disappear. Sadly however, it is those who stray from the Torah who write their own obituary. Those who stay true to the Torah are the manifestation of the promise.

Archie Bunker

Ahavah, I think you misunderstood me, at least as far as my overall thinking.

And may I ask why you are against Charedi control of conversions if let's say charlatans like Tropper and corrupt figures in the Israeli govt rabbinate are excluded?

Archie Bunker

Unequal Time, you really are a fool. I said that over the course of 1000 years there were proper converts and rape cases in Europe that could account for the DNA findings.

It is not an entire "community created by the offspring of rape" as you so crudely framed it while sleazily attributing ugly words to me that I never said.

Chicago Sam


Thanks for the feedback Ichiemeyer, I enjoy a good-hearted discussion,but the response you wrote indicates a large part of the problem: Who is an Apikoris? According to R. Moshe Feinstein, it was anyone who denies the Thirteen Principles of Faith as articulated by Maimonides, but every true scholar knows full and well that there exists many contrasting principles on virtually every one of the Thirteen Principles, so what does this prove?

If you can define who or what is an Apikoris, then we can further investigate whether or not a non-Orthodox practicing or believing Jew deserves to be designated by such a disparaging epithet. I can certainly argue that nowadays this is certainly not the case.

Even today's atheist needs to be treated with respect and dignity, for more often than not, the atheist today is the product of a "religious" society that acts contrary to its highest principles and merely pantomimes religious ferver--today's Haredi rabbi, IMO, more typically acts insufferably self-righteous and is indistinguishable from the Taliban Muslim.

Tragically, as Prof. Norman Lamm has often said, today's Rabbinute in Israel would rather that Jews in Israel and elsewhere believe in NOTHING rather than be good Conservative or Reform Jews.

Frankly, this website does a wonderful service that all Frum Jews ought to appreciate: Failedmessiah gives them a good kick-in-the-ass, and Kudos go to Shmarya for showing a shadowy side of the Orthodox world that its members refuse to look at.

Reality bites, and when leading Haredi rabbis are open pedophiles in their community, the integrity of the entire Jewish frum world is at risk.

If Freud were alive, he would have had a field day dealing with these self-righteous pismires.

For the Modern Orthodox world, I would encourage you to stop enabling those forces that seek to destroy you. Show some backbone and stand up for religious pluralism--which is a good thing for everyone--even the Haredim.

Itchiemayer

A great story Dr. Dave. I have so much admiration for those who commit to true Torah Judaism when they have no obligation to do so. It is overwhelming. Some of the best Jews I know are Jews by choice, which of course means to me an orthodox conversion.
Dr. Dave, If I can find a woman that keeps taharas mishpocha, shabbos, and kashrus, I'll buy her the pink pants! Now, I really don't condone the wearing of pants by women, but chas v'shalom that it would ever invalidate a geirus. That would be criminal. I would go out with a woman who might wear pants from time to time, but if they would not be committed to kashrus shabbos, and taharas mishpocha, then I could not consider them. You are a lucky man!

Dr. Dave

The love of my life was born catholic. She constantly got in trouble as a child for wanting to pray directly to G-d and not jc or mary. She was in tears when a nun told her that Jews had no hope of salvation (until another kinder nun told her that not all Jews would go to hell).

She went to church only when with her parents at the time that I had met her, and was in a rebelious phase myself. Not knowing who to talk to she went to a reform rabbi who when apprised of my orthodox history told her to forget it, she would never be accepted.

We married and I did not ask her to convert. My parents sat shiva and disowned me. Without any coercion on my part, my wife seeked out education and first converted reform and then webt to the mikva before an orthodox (hareidi) bet din and along the way brought me back.

She is shomer torah u mitzvot - kashrut, shabbat taharat mishpacha - but does wear pants - again anyone who feels pink pants are mens clothing is just wrong (and just a little too precious) - and she spends so much time and effort quietly helping unfortunate individuals with tzedakah that I think she is working on becoming a lamed vavnik.

My parents accepted and loved her at least as much as the spouses of my siblings.

Our genetic material may not have mingled in millenia but we are stronger for it. I have daughters who are beautiful inside and out, who are at the top of their classes in limudei kodesh and chol, who will have Jewish homes while becoming doctors or lawyers or whatever they wish.

I look at my girls and I have hope for the future of our people that strongly counteracts the shtuyot I read posted here by the choteim umachteim who deny legitimacy to geri tzedek an thus deny the torah and HKBH!!

Yochanan Lavie

I will worry about my beshirt after I pull up my bepants.

Mordecai: I am praying for you and your wife, assuming God listens to heretics like me.

WoolSilkCotton

Mordecai, so sorry to hear. Love will be the source of comfort for you both. Enjoy your precious time together.

WoolSilkCotton

Itchie, what you feel about Mordecai (or me) is your business. I was already married for 20 years, and then divorced 9 years ago. The whole 'bashert' thing is just another way to drive ourselves nuts and feel guilty about nothing. I was already married to my bashert. It didn't work. Yeah, yeah, you'll say she wasn't really my bashert, but- sorry, Itchie- I can't waste any more personal energy worrying about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Betrayed my parents, etc? Nice try with the guilt trip. I have had a Jewish mother, wife, sister, and daughter. Think you can induce a guilt trip in me? Guess again. What kind of religion do you believe in when we must remain in a constant state of misery in order to satisfy the always-pissed-off Jewish God?

Eventually, we all choose our path to spirituality. Good luck with your journey.

Itchiemayer

Mordecai - While I can't take back what I wrote, please know that however strong my beliefs may be, I still don't lose sight of having compassion for my fellow man. May God give you the strength to get through your trying situation.

Itchiemayer

Chicago Sam - I am skeptical of your claim that there are several MO communities that have accepted a conservative conversion. How can Rabbis that preach apikorsis, which by definition includes all conservative "Rabbis", convert anyone to Judaism. I find this very difficult to believe. Moreover, any MO communities which allow this are doing a disservice to the "converts".
Dave Marshall - We don't have to have big numbers to be a light unto the world. The fact is reform and conservative (what a misnomer) Judaism are dying. I DON'T WANT A WATERED DOWN JEWISH PEOPLE. You are damn right I am protective of my Jewish blood. This Kushner or whatever his name is decides to date Trumpess and is willing to pay big bucks to get her converted. What a joke. I don't want the trumpess. They should just fornicate and call it a day.
Chicago Sam - I do agree that no ortho conversions should be undone, assuming the Beis Din took the proper steps. However, shame on those Beis Dins that convert people for the wrong reasons (money). That person will then be judged as a Jew, which if they don't intend to keep the mitzvos, only makes their judgment day more difficult.
Dave Marshall - I don't care what percentage we are of the world population. I think your "opening the flood gates" idea is a simple-minded idea.
I have seen your posts, and you seem like a really nice guy, so forgive me for being so harsh, but you really have touched a nerve. Look at how many muslims there are, and how little they contribute to society relative to their population. Look at how much Jews have contributed, in many ways we are a light unto the world even with our small numbers. We still have a long way to go spiritually, but we are the most successful people in the history of the world relative to population. Thank you, and good night!

mordecai

Friends Yochanan & WSC:

And the love of my life is ill and now in hospice care. As I look to the end of her life, recognizing that we are all here for a limited time, I am increasingly saddened by hypocrisy and prejudice. Man is a tribal beset by partisan bickering and factionalism. Of course there is never an end to it. Even among our own tribe (Jews) we have bitter disputes among the various denominations. Such is the lot of manking, it seems. At the end of the day we must recognize the genuine people among all the nations and find common cause.

WoolSilkCotton

YL, as always, you rule.

At the end of the day (as it literally is right now), you sip your nightcap, watch the news, and think about what really matters. 99% of what I read on this site does not qualify.

Earlier today on this site, I saw a comment where Conservative Jews were insulted because seltzer they drank on Pesach might have contained gas that had been derived from hametz sources. What an insult to God Almighty that some people here think that He would become angry at Jews for drinking seltzer on Pesach that had CO2 derived from grain. What have religious Jews become, when this is their concept of God?

But I digress. My special love feels the same towards her religion as I do towards mine. It is amazing that our complaints at the religious powers-that-be are so similar; and then, I realize how very similar we all truly are. At age 52, you start to realize what is truly important to you and what isn't. Love is all that is truly important.

One of the guys I work with recently was diagnosed with cancer. He underwent radical surgery and is now getting chemotherapy and radiation. He recently returned to work. His future remains uncertain, and yet he has become the most open-minded, liberal, kindest person at work (he was a pretty decent guy before all this, too). Nothing rankles him anymore. One day at work, I became very stressed out over some nonsense, and I was rude to another guy. My friend with cancer interrupted me, and said "Mark, you know what you need? You need to get cancer." I was jolted back into realizing how derailed I had become over some stupid unimportant matter at work. i immediately apologized and then thanked my friend for restoring my perspective.

Well, goodnight, and love to you and all the chevra here at FM.

Itchiemayer

Mordecai - Anyone who believes in the Torah is saddened by a Jew marrying out of the faith. Nevertheless, I decline the offer to kiss your behind. I also feel sorry for the woman that was destined for you, because she too is suffering without her bashert. It's bad enough that you married out, you make it even worse by flaunting it. You betrayed your parents, your grandparents, and all of the generations prior. It is very sad.

Neo-Conservaguy

Let me also add a personal story about the impact of haredi insanity upon the RCA and the "Modern Orthodox" community in the USA. I know two people that were the most sincere potential converts one could hope to have attracted to the 'Am Yisrael. Both were comfortable with Orthodoxy in terms of halachic positions, but also made friendships in the Conservative community and/or the liberal halachic "independent minyan" community. The RCA, having bent over for the Israel haredim, no longer perform local conversions.

As a direct result of the inability and/or unwillingness of local RCA rabbis to work with these candidates in a rational manner, both people decided to pursue alternative routes to geruth. While I think those paths are halachic, they will not be accepted by many in the Orthodox communities - which is a loss for involved.

Let me be clear: these two people are willing to lead a life of mitsvoth unknown (God forbid) to the vast majority of Jews. At the end of the day, they have learned to temper their love of Judaism with hurt (and I suspect, anger) toward some of the very rabbis that should have encouraged their path with loving kindness.

Yochanan Lavie

Neo: great to hear from you. My ortho shul is small but growing, because our rabbi is old-school Modern Orthodox and is very caring and welcoming. The people we're getting are not Ortho- BTW.

In some areas, conservative is losing ground to Reform or ortho. It depends. Rather than keep score, like this is a sporting event, why not just be the best you can be?

Neo-Conservaguy

Chicago Sam, Orthodoxy needs more ravs like you. But, from what I've seen, you guys are mostly from the older generation and have fought a losing battle to the agudath and haredi influenced day-school generation of "Modern Orthodox" rabbis. It's a true tragedy for the Jewish people, and despite the perceptions of some fanatics that post here, it has lead to the strong downward trend in memberships to Orthodox shuls located outside of a small number of high density urban places. Every Orthodox shul in my area is dying and only the Conservative shul is doing well in terms of membership.

Yochanan Lavie

And, as you so astutely observe, anybody who doesn't like it can kiss my ass.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | February 17, 2009 at 08:47 PM

I believe the Irish term is "Pogue Mahon."

The love of my life turned out to be an agnostic Italian Catholic girl. I find Jewish women attractive, and I don't buy into the JAP stereotyping, but the heart wants what it wants, and will have it no matter what your ideology is. Provided, of course, one has a heart.

Neo-Conservaguy

You cannot scour history for leniencies whilst ignoring the stringencies of history as well.

Sure you can, and such cherry picking is a proud Jewish tradition going back thousands of years. Any time some well-known rabbi makes a decision, he backs it up with "selected" text, often ignoring other "not selected" text which would refute his position. So what? That's the way the halachic game has always been played.

Chicago Sam


Without going into specifics, I know for a fact that there are several Modern Orthodox communities where the rabbanim have accepted Conservative conversions on the basis of the latter's sincerity in their kabbalat hamitzvot, calling CJ rabbis "villains" is nasty, for one could say the same about Haredi "villains" where IMO, the epithet is much more well deserved.

Chicago Sam

Archie,

Every Beth Din has the right to make a decision that is apropos for its community. That is a simple Halacha you cannot ignore or shove under the carpet; this concept has several important implications, namely, if a person wishes to be accepted by a different a community, that community has the right to define its expectations and criteria for social acceptance.

Example: If I wished to be a rabbi in a Haredi community, the Haredi community would have every right to expect that I subscribe to their religious standards before I would become a rav in their midst. By the same token, if I wanted to become a convert in a Haredi community, they would have every right to make the standards as strict as they like.

A more liberal community could not realistically expect it to be otherwise, since they have no jurisdiction over that Haredi community.

By the same token, a Haredi community has no jurisdiction over those Orthodox communities that adhere to a more liberal view of the Halacha.

Therefore, the more Haredi community would not be able to geographically invalidate the conversions, marriages, or divorces of another community that is more lenient than they are, kapish?

Let me repeat: A community, does not have the right to invalidate the religious status of someone, whose community of origin has already accepted them as bone fide members.

Lastly, you have not cited any textual support for your Halachic position re. conversions from the Shulchan Aruch, or for that matter--Maimonides MT.

However, at least your tone is mildly more civil and that is much appreciated!

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