"…There are those who opt to leave yeshiva and join the working community." "Are they called haredim?" "No they are not! I do not accept this. It does not exist. One who does not learn [full time] in kollel and works has left [the haredi community].…"
Above: Rabbi Moshe Gafni
Haredi Member of Knesset Rabbi Moshe Gafni of the non-hasidic faction of the Ashkenazi haredi Untied Torah Judaism Party was interviewed on the haredi Kol Berama Radio Tuesday morning.
Yeshiva World posted the following excerpt, which I edited slightly for clarity and consistency of spelling:
Gafni: I do not accept the categorization [that there are working haredim]. There are those who opt to leave yeshiva and join the working community.
Kol Berama: Are they called haredim?
Gafni: No they are not. I do not accept this. It does not exist. One who does not learn [full time] in kollel and works has left [the haredi community].
Kol Berama:: Is it true that at times children are discriminated against due to their ethnicity?
Gafni: I tell you now as in the past this is simply not true. There are children who are not accepted for one reason or another. Sometimes because the parents work, at times other reasons. There are many. Now we are speaking about something else.
One can go to work and that is fine but they are not the same as those immersed in Torah study. By the way, to my sorrow, I too am working and it is not the same.
Kol Berama: Yes but your children are accepted.
Gafni: Please, we are not speaking about this. I know there is a person who turned to me about this. I know what you are talking about…In the time of the Chassam Sofer [the Hatam Sofer, Rabbi Moshe Schreiber Sofer, 1762-1839] there were those who worked and those who did not but the difference is they all adhered to his word, unlike today…
I do not accept the category. There is no such thing as working haredim and I do not need an religious-political gathering similar to a protest called by haredi rabbinic leaders]. This is the fact.
Kol Berama: But these people do not know who to vote for. Who represents them?
Gafni: [Talks about his work to get students rejected by yeshivas accepted into other ones.] I have my record that speaks for itself and I do not need elections to make the point.
Kol Berama: Can you admit there is a group that feels the United Torah Judaism Party is not their home, that you do not represent them? Perhaps the people Aryeh Deri [the chairman of the Sefardi haredi Shas Party] and Eli Yishai {Shas’ former chairman who left Shas last month to form his own political party] are working to attract?
Gafni: It is not a “group”. There is no group like this. [Deri and Yishai] are trying to drum up votes. I cannot speak for them. I know we cannot compete with one another or worse, then one [of our parties] will not pass the minimum [votes] threshold [to have a seat in the Knesset] and the votes [cast for us] will be wasted. Those evil people with their evil decrees [the government] did not differentiate between us and we should not differentiate between one another.
Kol Berama: What is a working chareidi? One who wears a shirt that is not totally white? What is he called?
Gafni: Finally we get to it. Anyone who adheres to Torah and [haredi] rabbis and wants his children educated as they should [be], I will work to assist him. I do not understand from shirts. I deal with the person, not clothing.
Honestly, I do not look at one’s clothing but I look at the person. It is possibly competition between [yeshivas].
Kol Berama: Rabbi Gafni, you are avoiding the issue. Is there such a thing as working haredim?
Gafni: No there is not. There are haredim who adhere to gedolei yisrael [the ‘great ones of Israel’ – i.e., the top haredi rabbis]. That is it.
Kol Berama: Have you visited the Kiryat Ono haredi college?
Gafni: No. It is not my job. My job is to concern myself with the needs of those who study Torah [i.e., haredi men and children] and that is it. One wishing to attend a haredi college may [do so] but it is not my job [to care about them or help them]. I do not represent academics.
Kol Berama: That is exactly the point. That is what they say. You and United Torah Judaism do not represent them. Don’t you understand this is how they feel? They are looking for representation.
Gafni: From my perspective, I represent them too – but not regarding academics.
Kol Berama:: No you do not and that is where we started. They are without representation.
Gafni: They must consult with their rabbi[s], the same rabbis who permitted them to attend a college, even a haredi one. We [the United Torah Judaism Party] have to worry about the students of Torah for that is our goal and our future. I do not encourage academics and it is not my job [to do so]. The thousands in these colleges do turn to me and I do my best to assist them.
Let one person come off the air and tell me he came to me and I refused to assist him.
Kol Berama: I have him on the air. Are you willing to debate him?
Gafni: No.
Kol Berama: What scares you so much? I do not understand.
Gafni: For me it is ideology. It has not and will not change no matter how good they are. I am here for Torah study, not academics. Since the students of Torah keep us all going and they are targeted [by the government] it is my job to assist them, no one else. Anyone who approaches me as an individual that I can assist I have and will always continue doing what I can to assist.
There are many including a person close to me that shifted to academics but that is not what I do.
Kol Berama:: What about ‘chardakim’ [cockroaches, a haredi slur for haredi IDF soldiers]?
Gafni: Please, I told you I do not know about all these titles. I follow what I was taught by Rabbi [Elazar Menachem Man] Shach [the late leader of non-hasidic Ashkenazi haredim who passed away in 2001] and do my best to assist anyone and everyone that comes to me.
Kol Berama: I never heard you stutter like today. I have mercy on you. You are in an untenable situation. Perhaps it is time to reconsider and look at the generation and [admit] it is time to change things around.
Gafni: You can say what you need to and I will respond as I do. Thanks for having mercy and I need it for certain due to the load [I carry]. However there is nothing to change, not even one millimeter. This is what it is and will continue to do. This is our job and our responsibility. Hence, I have mercy on you that you thought Gafni will say different things on the air and I disappointed you.
Kol Berama: You believe it works like that?
Gafni: No but you have mercy on me so I return it.