So by now most of you know the family that owns Agriprocessors – Aaron's Best, David's, Supreme, Shor Habor, etc. – is Chabad. A FailedMessiah.com reader decided to see what Chabad rabbis would say about animal cruelty, factory farming and the like. He sent me the correspondence between himself and the Chabad rabbis and told me I could publish it. So I have, after the jump, in full.
You'll be treated to Chabad rabbis, including, I think Yossi Jacobson, supporting throat-ripping, electric cattle prodding to the face of animals and other abuses.
That's right – according to AskMoses.com, ripping the throat out of an animal five seconds or less after the shechita cut is made is not only kosher – it is humane, as well.
Read it all, after the jump …
Rabbi E: Welcome. I'll be with you in a moment..., but you should know, I AM SO GLAD YOU ARE HERE! DevonKurta: even though kashrut provides a more human slaughtering process, how do jews negotiate around the awful conditions in which animals live in factory farms. if animals are God_s creatures, how can we live with ourselves while putting them in tiny cages and
DevonKurta: ok. cool. thanks
Rabbi E: i am not an expert on this subject. i certainly share ur concern regarding how animals are treated. but i can tell u that i trust the rabbis who say that meat is kosher, that they mean that all of the conditions are kosher as well.
DevonKurta: right, but you cant deny that kosher mean still comes from factory farms
DevonKurta: i mean, i have seen videos of kosher factory farms
DevonKurta: msg 1
Rabbi E: do u mean the videos that were on the peta website?
DevonKurta: yes, but not limited to PETA
Rabbi E: i am not sure what is considered inhumane as far as animal treatment is concerned so i cannot really answer in an intelligent manner. sorry.
DevonKurta: i was on chabad.org asking the same question, and chaim posner ever corroborated the fact that there are indeed factory farms for kosher meat. im not trying to give you a hard time, but as a jew who is really struggling with their faith, i really want to make my peace with judaism
Rabbi E: in other words, i don't know how many square feet an animal needs according to jewish law etc.
Rabbi E: i understand ur question
Rabbi E: just b/c it is a factory farm doesn't mean -- by definition -- that the animals are treated inhumanely.
DevonKurta: you're not sure what is considered humane? is being locked in a tiny cage where you can't turn around humane? i mean, even veal...how can veal be kosher when the calf is not allowed to move in order to keep the meat tender?
Rabbi E: i am not sure all veal is treated the same way. i am not sure all farms are run the same way. etc.
Rabbi E: that is what i am saying
Rabbi E: i don't know what is allowed by halacha
DevonKurta: do you know who Rabbi Natan Slifkin is?
Rabbi E: i would say if it is allowed by halacha it cannot be considered inhumane.
Rabbi E: i don't know who he is
Rabbi E: sorry
DevonKurta: do you know what tzaar baalei hayyim is?
Rabbi E: i am NOT saying that the farms ARE humane. i am saying that i simply do not know
DevonKurta: who does know
Rabbi E: and i would be VERY disappointed if it were true that rabbis allow inhumane treatment of animals in kosher slaughterhouses
Rabbi E: u can write to [email protected]
DevonKurta: im just confused how this has never been brought up or even explored by religious jews who study Torah all day
Rabbi E: i am sure it has been brought up
Rabbi E: i just don't know
DevonKurta: so who is the authority?
DevonKurta: i'm not trying to be rude, i just feel very passionate about this issue, and i just expected some clarification.
Rabbi E: u can call rabbi yosef shusterman at 310-271-9063 who is an expert in jewish law. even if he does not know the answer to this specific issue he can probably point u in the right direction.
DevonKurta: ok. thanks.
Rabbi E: i am glad u care so much! it is a good thing to care about. i wish i personally knew more so i could satisfy ur questions
DevonKurta: what does the Torah say about aliens and extra terrestrials
Rabbi E: nothing as far as i know
DevonKurta: what is the halacha on aliens
DevonKurta: are they ever acknowledged in any of the seconday texts?
Rabbi E: i am not sure there is any halacha that deals with aliens as i am not sure the torah says there are any
DevonKurta: so how come the Talmud speaks about Maroz?
Rabbi E: i am not aware of any acknowledgement or anything else concerning aliens
Rabbi E: Thanks for coming. My shift is over and I have to go, but another agent will be happy to chat with you.
DevonKurta: what is MAroz?
Rabbi E: i see that there is an article about this in chabad.org
Rabbi E: please check there for further info, but i have to get going
Rabbi Jacobson: Welcome to askmoses. How can I be of help today?
devonkurta: Do Jews believe in demonic possesion and exorcisms?
devonkurta: Do Jews believe in demonic possesion and exorcisms?
Rabbi Jacobson: Good morning! How can i help you?
Rabbi Jacobson: no
devonkurta: can a jew be possesed?
devonkurta: if a jew cannot be possesed, what is the reason?
Rabbi Jacobson: i am not familiar with all these ideas,
devonkurta: what do you mean
devonkurta: msg 1
devonkurta: msg 2
Rabbi Jacobson: these are not jewish ideas & concepts, & i am not familiar with them
devonkurta: do you know what tzaar baalei hayyim is?
Rabbi Jacobson: yes
devonkurta: with that law in mind, how can kosher meat really be kosher when the animals are kept in inhumane conditions in factory farms?
Rabbi Jacobson: i disagree with that statement completely
devonkurta: today's factory farming methods are clear violations of tzaar baalei hayyim law.
Rabbi Jacobson: this is anti semitic garbage which is false
devonkurta: im jewish
devonkurta: how can it be anti-semitic
Rabbi Jacobson: there is no greater compassion for any creatures then the compassion which the Torah prescribes
Rabbi Jacobson: well the idea is antisemitic, no matter how many jews "repeat" that accusation
devonkurta: right, but you are aware that there are factory farms, right?
devonkurta: i understand that while the slaughter may be humane, the treatment of animals (God's creation) is really awful. I was just wondering Judaism's view on this.
Rabbi Jacobson: there was recently a jew who said that blood inmatza is...true! the fact that he said it doesn';t make it less antisemitic, a false accusation created by the hatemongering christians priests in the middle ages
devonkurta: i dont understand, how can you compare my very real concern to something ridiculous like "blood in matzoh"
Rabbi Jacobson: as i said in judaism there are laws for the kind & merciful treatment of animals matched by no other society
devonkurta: i dont any medieval "hatemongering" priest cared about animal rights.
Rabbi Jacobson: are u aware that in jewish law, a person is not allowed to eat before he feeds his animals?
devonkurta: well, what about the societies that abstain from eating meat at all?
devonkurta: i know that.
Rabbi Jacobson: do animal rights advocate this same kind of behaviour??
devonkurta: well, they dont consume the animals at all...so im sure a cow would rather eat after his master and not be eaten at all, rather than eat before his master and then killed.
Rabbi Jacobson: that is not based on Torah, & has no credibility
devonkurta: im just wondering why you can't just acknowledge that factory farms are cruel and inhumane
Rabbi Jacobson: b/c i don't agree with ure agenda, & i will not agree with it
Rabbi Jacobson: farms whatever they may be, has nothing to do with kosher slaughtering
Rabbi Jacobson: do u wear shoes?
devonkurta: and that the slaughtering technique is really secondary to the awful conditions in which the animals are kept.
devonkurta: not to be rude, but do you know what factory farms are?
devonkurta: so treatment of animals has nothing to with their slaughtering..
devonkurta: of course, but animal friendly shoes.
devonkurta: no leather, no suade
Rabbi Jacobson: u mean u use nothing that animal products in it?
devonkurta: i do my best, i make an effort.
devonkurta: it seems that the jewish factory farms really don't care about the treatment of the animal, but instead focus on the actual slaughtering
devonkurta: which to me, would upset God, because cows are his creation.
devonkurta: it seems foolish to adhere to the method of slaughter, while giving no concern to the animals feelings and wellbeing while it is alive, dont you agree?
Rabbi Jacobson: i already told you - the most compassionate way of slaughtering is the kosher way which G-d presribes in the Torah.
Rabbi Jacobson: no person has more compassion than that which the Torah says
devonkurta: what about BEFORE the slaughtering?
Rabbi Jacobson: a totally differnt issue
Rabbi Jacobson: non realted to kashrut
devonkurta: ok, lets discuss that issue. i am not really interested in the slaughtering process anyway
Rabbi Jacobson: i was scheduled to go ofline a while ago, i can't discuss the farms issue now
devonkurta: Either animals are part of God's creation or they are not.
Rabbi Jacobson: be well
Rabbi Jacobson: Welcome to askmoses. How can I be of help today?
Rambam123: what is jewish insight?
Rambam123: are you there?
Rabbi Jacobson: Hello, how can I help you?
Rambam123: well, i was asking about the farm issue before and you said " i was scheduled to go ofline a while ago, i can't discuss the farms issue now"...so i was wondering why you're online now.
Rambam123: and how it was ok to be so dismissive when you're supposed to be giving jewish insight and answering questions.
Rambam123: msg 1Rabbi Ovadia G : Welcome. I'll be with you in a moment...What's on your mind?
devonkurta : i have a question regarding asking questions
Rabbi Ovadia G : Can you be a little more specific?
devonkurta : and if any questions are off limits to ask
devonkurta : is asking a combative question considered hate speech?
Rabbi Ovadia G : We are still connected. As I am currently chatting with 5 people please be patient.
devonkurta : ok
Rabbi Ovadia G : I have not forgotten about you. We are currently experiencing high volume of traffic, please continue to hold.
devonkurta : ok
Rabbi Ovadia G : ok. lets have the question
devonkurta : well, obviously, you're familiar with rabbi josephson.
devonkurta : i mean jacobsen
devonkurta : he wasnt really able to answer my question, so he suggested i speak to someone else
Rabbi Ovadia G : ok
devonkurta : my question involves tzaar baalei hayyim. i was wondering kosher meat can be considered "kosher" if the animals are living in poor conditions. i realize the slaughtering process is more humane, but what about the horrible living conditions in kosher factory farms? would Hashem advocate for the mistreatment of his creations?
Rabbi Ovadia G : no He would not. However mistreatment can mean many differewnt things to many different cultures, peoples etc.
devonkurta : Rabbi Feinstien r
devonkurta : efused to eat non-union produce and issued a pesak din in relation to this â€" and the tzaar baalei hayyim issues of caged veal â€" again, Rav Moshe refused to eat it and issued a pesak din in relation to this
devonkurta : how does judaism define mistreatment?
Rabbi Ovadia G : not feeding the animal for example or causing it undue harm.
devonkurta : so why is veal kosher?
Rabbi Ovadia G : why not?
devonkurta : because, the calfs are placed in tiny cages to keep their meat tender
devonkurta : they can't move around, they are separated from their parents, and they must remain there until a farmer decides that they are ready to die.
Rabbi Ovadia G : firstly who define tiny, secondly how do you know that this is causing them undue harm?
devonkurta : well, i can't see an animal meant for grazing being ok with being imoble in a tiny cage
devonkurta : and in addition, Reb Moshe found this to be inhumane as well.
devonkurta : in addition, chickens are de-beaked so they don't peck the slughterhouse workers. they are placed in mass cages where they are practically ontop of each other
devonkurta : i firmly believe that this is not how Hashem intended his creations to be treated. Even kosher slaughterhouses, where no doubt the slaughering process is more humane, disrespect the existence of these animals.
Rabbi Ovadia G : that is an opinion and you are free to act upon it. Obviously the Kosher organizations who certify it do not see it that way.
devonkurta : right, but the slaughtering of the meat deems it kosher...what about tzaar baalei hayyim. i'm not discussing the slaughtering method
devonkurta : i'm asking a simple question: the mistreatment and disrespect for animals in factory farms...how would Hashem be ok with that treatment of his creations?
Rabbi Ovadia G : I understand you well. Like I said the organizations certifying the meats do not agree with your feelings.
devonkurta : all of the examples i've listed, they are obviously inhumane.
Rabbi Ovadia G : to you.
devonkurta : are they inhumane to you?
Rabbi Ovadia G : I have not had the opportunity to observe these farms etc. Nor am I an expert in the halachos of animal cruelty
devonkurta : lets say, for arguments sake, the conditions i've listed for you...are they inhumane in your opinion?
Rabbi Ovadia G : The question, description and purpose is to hypothetical for me to give a logical and hionest answer
devonkurta : There are some modern-day considerations; it seems that some current farming methods are inconsistent with Torah principles (although this does not render the meat unkosher). It also seems that the current fashion of eating meat gluttonously is not a Torah ideal.
Warning : You have been inactive for 4 minutes. Unless there is a resumption of activity, in one minute you will be automatically disconnected from the AskMoses chat system.
Rabbi Ovadia G : OK
devonkurta : there is a process performed immediately after shechita, of ripping out the tracheas and esophagi of conscious cattle. in addition,
devonkurta : the misuse of
devonkurta : electric prods on animals' faces and the use of are straining pen which has been condemned as a violation of tza'ar ba'alei hayyim (the torah mandate not to cause pain to animals)
Rabbi Ovadia G : That is whay there are Rabonim who give a hechsher
Rabbi Ovadia G : and then you can choose to eat or not.
devonkurta : agriprocessors, the biggest glatt kosher slaughterhouse in the country AgriProcessors accounted for more than half of all slaughterhouse complaints submitted to the Federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration this year in Iowa, a state with scores of meatpacking plants
Rabbi Ovadia G : It also has many different Kosher organizations, represented by tens of well repected Rabonim who give a hechsher there.
devonkurta : im not asking about kashrut or hechsher; it's obvious why things are kosher or unkosher. i'm asking how a disregard of tzaar baalei hayyim doesn't affect kashrut
Rabbi Ovadia G : We are going in circles. The Rabonim al asar are at least as concerned with tzaar balei chayim as you are.
Rabbi Ovadia G : They obviously disagree with your assesment.
devonkurta : why did Reb Moshe abstain from eating veal? the veal he could've eaten WAS KOSHER...so please stop mentioning hechsher. He chose to NOT eat veal for humane reasons. what are judaism's views on tzaar baalei hayyim and it's affect on something being deemed kosher or not kosher
Rabbi Ovadia G : Is there anything else I can help you with?
devonkurta : if they are as concerned as i am, why are there allowed to be kosher factory farms?
Rabbi Ovadia G : See above
Rabbi Ovadia G : Since thye DO NOT agree with your assesment
devonkurta : you're purposely avoiding the questions.
Rabbi Ovadia G : Again, your opinion.
devonkurta : these arent my opinio, theyre documented facts
Rabbi Ovadia G : Diocumented by who? Drawing what conclusions?
devonkurta : you can find them anywhere. it's not a matter of opinion...cattle prod jolts to the face are inhumane.
Rabbi Ovadia G : acoording to whom?
Rabbi Ovadia G : When a horse rider of old would wip the horse was that humane?
devonkurta : well, agriprocess has the reports on their site. PETA has many articles.
devonkurta : yes it is inhumane. wait...you're telling me that prodding a cow in the face is humane?
devonkurta : while its caged up?
Rabbi Ovadia G : no the horse is not caged up
devonkurta : the cow
devonkurta : you're telling me that prodding a COW
Rabbi Ovadia G : did you consider the PAIN of the vegetable when it is TORN from its lif source. Just becaus you can't hear it SCREAM???
Rabbi Ovadia G : I am asking about whipping the horse?
devonkurta : one has a central nervous system, one doesnt
devonkurta : whipping a horse, to me, is inhumane
devonkurta : how can you compare a vegetable and a cow!?
Rabbi Ovadia G : and yet the Torah ALLOWES it except for Shabbos
Rabbi Ovadia G : why not?
devonkurta : A cow has feelings, emotions, children, motherly instinct, blood, organs, intestines...
Rabbi Ovadia G : what do we REALLY know about the feelings of the vegetable?
Rabbi Ovadia G : and how it reacts when it iis TORN fromn its life source
devonkurta : im not discussing whipping. i'm discussing treatment of cows, i dont advocate for everything in the Torah.
devonkurta : so, why don't we execute vegetables?
Rabbi Ovadia G : and the delicate indicernable PAIN we may be causing it?
devonkurta : why don't we keep vegetables as pets?
Rabbi Ovadia G : there an easier way, JUST RIP it form its life sustaining force.
Rabbi Ovadia G : som do they keep gardens and tend to them lovingly
devonkurta : if you think vegetables and cows are the same...well, i don't know, that's bizarre to me. and the fact that a vegetable can't speak or visibly emote is a testament that a cow is both more developed than a vegetable anyway
Rabbi Ovadia G : Look, I got your point. I don't agree with you and it is obvious to e that many great Rabboninm dont either.
devonkurta : cant we move past vegetables. you're begging the question: we're discussing factory farms.
Rabbi Ovadia G : So what so it is MORE DEVELOPED it does not speak for you tearing it away form its ONLY SOURCE of life.
devonkurta : you didnt get my point. you said that you weren't sure if prodding a cows face was inhumane
Rabbi Ovadia G : you dont want to speak about the vegeatable and i wonde rwhy?
devonkurta : because we're discussing cows
Rabbi Ovadia G : your feelings a re based only on what YOU personally can identify with
Rabbi Ovadia G : I dont get it?
devonkurta : my question was about cows
Rabbi Ovadia G : I want you to be consistent
devonkurta : im asking your expert opinion as a rabbi...
Rabbi Ovadia G : and you dont seem to be
Rabbi Ovadia G : I am nopt an expert in the field of animal cruelty.
devonkurta : is prodding a caged cow in the face considered humane according to jewish law?
Rabbi Ovadia G : In Jewish law it is not a matter of humane or not it is a matter of undue cruelty to an animal.
devonkurta : hwo can you say that?
devonkurta : in your opinion...is it cruel or not?
devonkurta : thats all im asking
Rabbi Ovadia G : What about the Tomatoe. I am asking you, just because you cant hear the tomato scream and you cant identify eith its pain being torn form it life source does that mean you do it???
devonkurta : we're talking about cows! theyre not even the same species as cows.
Rabbi Ovadia G : I am still asking your opinion?
Rabbi Ovadia G : How about stepping on the ground? Do you think you are allowed to hurt the ground???
devonkurta : if a vegetable is picked from it's stalk, i find nothing wrong with fruit bearing trees or vegetables.
devonkurta : vegatables, shmita, harvesting etc. is mentioned and sanctioned in the bible
Rabbi Ovadia G : TEARING IT AWAY from its LIFE SOURCE is not abhorent to you??!
devonkurta : and there are very specific rules for it.
Rabbi Ovadia G : As is in the case of cruelty to animals.
devonkurta : if it's not "abhorent" to Hashem, who am i for it to be abhorent to me?
Rabbi Ovadia G : I must go now. It was interesting chatting with you.
devonkurta : no, there is no law about "cruelty to vegetables"..there is however a law regarding cruelty to animals.
devonkurta : and Reb Moshe saw my point of view, so i'm not really interested in what rabbonim who aren't sure if prodding a cow in the face or tearing it's trachia out is inhumane or not. if these are the views of these great rabbonim who share your views, then judaism is in a sorry state. in addition, your avoidance of this question is des
Rabbi Ovadia G : correct
devonkurta : picable.
devonkurta : i know im correct
devonkurta : you cant answer the question, because there is no real answer.
Rabbi Ovadia G : I am sorry that you fee that way about me and find it dispicable. I truly find that there are many issues that are dipicable and need our attention. we will continue to do our best in fulfilling Hashems will.
devonkurta : and you've been talking in circles for 15 minutes instead of just explaining that the treatment of animals might not be according halacha.
devonkurta : you havent given one staright answer...do you realize that?
Rabbi Ovadia G : I said from the beginning that I am no expert in this field
Rabbi Ovadia G : No, I do not.
devonkurta : you've either answered questions with questions
devonkurta : you're an expert in jewish law...it seems simple to apply law to any circumstance
Rabbi Ovadia G : I do however except that this is your opinion and do not find it dipicable.
devonkurta : how come "seething a kid in its mother milk" was able to become "dont eat milk and meat."
Rabbi Ovadia G : Again, i am sorry that you feel that way.
devonkurta : the rabbanim werent experts in seething baby goats, they were experts in application of law.
Rabbi Ovadia G : Is there anything lese I can help you with?
devonkurta : you can either apply this law of tzaar baalei hayyim to animal cruelty or you cant...
Rabbi Ovadia G : ?
devonkurta : you can help me with understanding how you can be so avoidant and dishonest
Rabbi Ovadia G : Wow you are full of accusations today.
devonkurta : your only response to this argument was talking about cruelty to vegetables
Rabbi Ovadia G : see above
devonkurta : dont you see how not ok that is?
Rabbi Ovadia G : Being more forceful and convinced of your opinion does not make you right. Hurtling acuusations and insult only belittles your position.
devonkurta : you havent given one honest answer, you havent acknowledged Reb Moshe once, you havent explained why prodding a cows face isnt cruelty...the only thing you've done is ask me whether or not picking a vegetable is cruel.
Rabbi Ovadia G : see above
devonkurta : im not being forceful. i dont know your position, because you havent given it.
Rabbi Ovadia G : I uderstand.
devonkurta : you've only made vague statments about mashkiachs
devonkurta : and you havent made any sort of stance or opinion on the facts and issues i've brought up.
Rabbi Ovadia G : see above
Rabbi Ovadia G : is this another insult?
devonkurta : i am seeing above. i see an argument laden with bullshit.
Rabbi Ovadia G : I am sorry that you see it that way.
devonkurta : what a worthless website
Rabbi Ovadia G : you seem angry.
devonkurta : im sure you're so sorry.
devonkurta : do you think that vagueness and skirting issues endear people to this religion.
Rabbi Ovadia G : You seemeed angry form the get go
devonkurta : nah, i wasnt angry
Rabbi Ovadia G : good.
devonkurta : im not angry now...just frustrated and mildly insulted
devonkurta : it's ponderous how this site can be an ambassador for judaism.
Rabbi Ovadia G : I understand.
devonkurta : rather than ackowledge that their might be discrepancies in jewish code and law, you just avoid the issues.
Rabbi Ovadia G : There are many people that see it differently.
devonkurta : and ask other innane, irrelevant questions. i'm sure there are people that see it differently.
Rabbi Ovadia G : I do not agree with your sumation of our discussion, but then again I am me.
devonkurta : i'm trying to take a practical stance with my judaism...you obviously aren't used to speaking with people who aren't ok with you avoiding questions and being disingenuous in general.
Rabbi Ovadia G : I would sure appreciate if you held off on continuing to insult me.
Rabbi Ovadia G : and acusing me of things. however if this is an avenue of venting that you choose I will try to oblige
devonkurta : ok, can i ask you three questions and you must answer either yes or no to them?
Rabbi Ovadia G : You can try.
devonkurta : i think that will make this a little more clear to me where it is exacly that you stand on these issues
devonkurta : ok.
devonkurta : would Hashem condone prodding a caged cow?
devonkurta : (
devonkurta : in the face)
Rabbi Ovadia G : To vauge a question for a yes or no answer. However It would seem that if you were doing it for no purpose then, of course Hashem would not condone that.
devonkurta : if kosher food prepared on shabbat is not considered kosher, then doesnt it stand to reason that animals treated cruely in factory farms (but killed halachically) shouldn't be deemed kosher?
Rabbi Ovadia G : Without comparing it to Shabbat, I would say that if an animal was shechted halachically but was not treated according to halalchic standards of tzar balei chayim a decnt rabbi should never give his shechser on that.
devonkurta : so in your opinion - if a cow who is caged and frightened (who doesn't have a rational mind like a human being) is "misbehaving" - Hashem would condone prodding it in the face?
Rabbi Ovadia G : What was your third question?
devonkurta : so in your opinion - if a cow who is caged and frightened (who doesn't have a rational mind like a human being) is "misbehaving" - Hashem would condone prodding it in the face?
Rabbi Ovadia G : I am no expert however, I bleieve that in many such instances it is obvious that Hashem would NOT condone this.
devonkurta : so i ask, finally, does prodding a caged cow in the face oblige with halachic standards?
Rabbi Ovadia G : Look I am no cow and you are either stuck with your question and or opinion, not intellignet enough to understand my responses or are just prodding me in my face for no real or practical reason.
Rabbi Ovadia G : I alreaqdy told you that your last question is to vauge to be able to be answered
devonkurta : oh, one more...does keeping a cow in a cage slightly bigger than it's body oblige with halachic standards
Rabbi Ovadia G : Same as my last response.
devonkurta : ok, shabbat shalom and go fuck yourself
Rabbi Ovadia G : If there is no reason for it then I do not think one would be allowed to do that.
Rabbi Ovadia G : hey take it easy man.
devonkurta : im converting and its all your fault
Rabbi Ovadia G : you are truly an angry person. I meet many people who claim to be sensitive to animals who have no sensitvity to their fellow human beings, especially whne they dont like what they say.
devonkurta : no, i think they should stick you in a cage and see how halachly sound it is.
Rabbi Ovadia G : Again, why are so many people who clainm to be sensitive, so angry?
Rabbi Ovadia G : iT BOGLES MY MIND.
devonkurta : im not angry, i just have so patience for religious zealots with no trace of practical application of information
Rabbi Ovadia G : I doubt that it is limited to that. But that is my opinion.