Gil Student has a post on Halav Yisrael (so-called Jewish milk).
But, as is the norm for Rabbi Student, comments that raise questions that he cannot answer or that pointedly challenge his mentors are deleted. Rather than answer the challenge – or admit that he cannot – Rabbi Student resorts to censorship to retain his hegemony.
What follows after the jump are three comments from that thread and my (now-deleted) response, Rabbi Student's 'reason' for the censorship and my response to that.
Gil:
Another point in favor of the heter: It is evident from the sugya in Avoda Zara that the supervision by Jews need not be direct observation. For example, if Jews are present where the milk is being drawn, even if the Jewish mashgichim are sitting down in such a manner that they cannot see the milking process directly because their view is obstructed, this nevertheless qualifies as proper hashgacha because the possibility of the Jew standing up to see what is happening is sufficient to prevent the gentiles from mixing non-Jewish milk. The FDA supervision of large dairies certainly accomplishes this task very powerfully. And also, according to this reasoning, all milk in the US drawn in dairies under FDA inspection is in fact Halav Yisroel even though no Jew is directly present for the hashgacha.
Nachum, You are following R. Moshe Feinstein's approach, which I don't really understand.
Homepage | 05.16.05 - 11:16 am | #
Nonsense about there being less preservatives in CY. Milk is preserved by pasteurizing, and all milk is pasteurized the same way. BTW, for all you CY drinkers, see if it contains vitamin d3. Almost certainly derived from treif.( Don`t worry, it`s batel b`shishim)
Rav Moshe`s tschuva is based on a Gemara that talks about a Jew being around at the time of milking, but a cow walks in the way and can`t actually see it. Kosher. Rav Moshe said that the Government is a surrogate for a Jew and therefore it is CY, and you can trust the fear of Government etc.
The OU do not have dairy equipment designation anymore and state all such products as dairy.
That brings a question for all of you that are machmir on CY, but will eat one of those products that is OUD but has no dairy ingredients, and others that will eat it after meat. Seems that you are trusting the FDA labelling laws, doesn`t eat?Nachum Klafter is correct.
Today, Halav Yisrael is an issue of societal conformity and, of course, keeping more $$$ in the haredi 'food-chain' as opposed to out of it.
By the way, there are Rishonim – Moshe HaDarshan comes quickly to mind – that permitted Gevinat Akum if the normative method of making cheese was with non-animal rennent. This is the case in America where almost all commonly available commercial cheese is made with synthetic rennent. That is why the common practice among non-Haredi pre-WW2 Orthodox American Jews was to eat non-Jewish commercial cheese.
The original gezera against non-Jewish cheese can be found in Talmud Yerushalmi Shabbat 1:4. You'll note that the gezera was passed only after Beit Shammai used thuggery and force to obtain the majority. You'll also note that the Yerushalmi calls that day the "blackest" ever to befall the Jewish people (except for Tisha B'Av).
If there was not so much money being made from 'Jewish' cheese, you'd all be eating Kraft today at a price that is less than half of the 'Jewish' cheese.
Take all that money and put it into Jewish education. It would make quite a difference.
ShmaryaShmarya: Because you are disparaging Beis Shammai.
I suppose Rabbi Student learned this type of debate from his mentors, Rabbis Hershal Schachter and Mordechai Willig.
While it is difficult to imagine Rabbi JB Soleveitchik behaving in such a childish manner, such behavior is perfectly in character for Rabbis Schachter and Willig – and their students.
Sad.