A Brief Word On Suicide

I didn't want to have to write this. A very tragic part of life is that some people commit suicide. They often do so even when they have loving families and a good support system. But that does not mean the shunning many ex-haredim suffer at the hands of their families and former communities doesn't play a role.

 

I didn't want to have to write this.

A very tragic part of life is that some people commit suicide. They often do so even when they have loving families and a good support system.

The questions for our community in wake of the latest suicide are as follows:

1. Does the shunning ex-haredim by their family increase the risk of suicide?

2. Does that shunning increase the actual number of suicides?

3. Do generations of marriages from within a very small gene pool contribute to the mental illness and depression that can lead to suicide?

4. Is there more the ex-haredi community should be doing to prevent suicide?

5. Is there more the haredi community should be doing to prevent suicide of ex-haredim?

6. What about suicide within the haredi community by haredim who are not skeptics or leading double lives or trying to leave? Is there more haredi community leaders could be doing to prevent it?

7. What role should the wider Jewish community be playing to stop suicide?

8. What roles should government and the media play?

The first answer is that, as far as I know, no hard statistics exist – in part because the US and state governments don't collect data by religious (or former religious) affiliation and in part because people don't like to talk about suicide and even in secular communities often associate it with shame and moral weakness, rather than viewing it as a public mental heath issue. So what we have is strong anecdotal evidence.

That evidence appears to show that being shunned by family and your former community may increase the likelihood of suicide.

So does living in a community that stigmatizes mental health issues and punishes the siblings and other relatives of mentally ill members, primarily by making it much more difficult to find ‘quality’ marriage partners and by pushing families with a mentally ill member down to the bottom of the community’s social hierarchy. No family wants to suffer this way and many go to great lengths to conceal the family member’s illness. That stigmatizes the ill family member in the one place s/he should expect unconditional love and support.

We also know that marriages to close relatives and from within a small gene pool – both very common in the Ashkenazi Jewish community until rather recently and still common in parts of the hasidic community even today – increases certain birth defects and some genetically-based illness, including some forms of mental illness.

So it’s reasonable to conclude that when an ex-haredi person commits suicide after being shunned by her family and former community, that shunning was a contributing factor in the suicide. So, too, the haredi community’s attitude toward mental illness. And so too it’s relatively constricted gene pool.

But that doesn’t mean the latest suicide was completely or even primarily caused by that shunning or the other problems just mentioned. We simply do not know that it was.

Obviously, this shunning should stop, but it is probably unrealistic to think it will any time soon.

About all we can hope for is that haredi rabbinic leaders both publicly and privately urge their followers to stop stigmatizing mental illness and urge that they get mental illness treated by competent licensed mental health professionals who do not answer to haredi community leaders, so the temptation to act in the haredi community’s “best interests” rather than the patient’s actual best interests is hopefully removed.

When an ex-haredi person who has been shunned by his or her family and former community commits suicide, haredi trolls often flood the Internet, posting comments under false names or pseudonyms attacking the deceased or lying about the deceased history. (You can see some of that in the comments to this recent post, and you can see similar comments from haredi trolls in the comments section below this one.) These haredi trolls do this to protect the reputation of their purportedly holy community, and more importantly to hurt other ex-haredim while scaring haredim thinking of leaving the haredi community in an attempt to keep them from doing so.

Haredi rabbinic leaders should strongly condemn this trolling, which should never be tolerated.

I think most of us realize, however, that the rabbis will likely never do that, and this awful lying by haredi trolls will continue unabated until the media exposes it and demands answers from haredi rabbinic leaders – or until a creative US Attorney or DA finds a way to prosecute a few of them.

We can also hope and expect that medical examiners and coroners in heavily haredi areas will stop allowing haredi fixers – not the actual medical evidence – to determine cause of death, that suicides will be called suicides rather than accidents or undetermined deaths, and that autopsies will be done whenever they are necessary to establish cause of death, whatever it may be.

As it stands now, haredi fixers and their organizations help to cover up suicides, and this makes the awareness of the problem of suicide within the haredi community much less than it should be.

As for the wider Jewish community, it has to do more than it currently does, and since it currently does almost nothing to help ex-haredim, it shouldn’t be too difficult to show marked improvement.

People who leave closed haredi communities – Satmar, Tosh, etc., – often leave with nothing. They have no high school diploma. They are barely literate in English if literate at all. They don’t know even basic science or algebra or geometry or history. They also don’t know much about American culture, even if they and their parents were born here. They’re completely adrift in avery unfamiliar sea, and they need much more than an occasional tabloid article or free meal to survive and thrive.

Footsteps, the organization founded by Malkie Schwartz a decade ago to help ex-haredim like herself, does what it can. But it needs much more money than it has, a larger staff and more resources, and it needs to have a welcoming non-haredi Jewish community, often a welcoming secular Jewish community, to help ex-haredim integrate into.

But as lots of Federation studies and anecdotal evidence shows, the Jewish community is not a welcoming place for most people, and it is certainly not a welcoming place for near-indigents who don’t know what Camp Ramah or NIFTY are.

The Jewish community could change this if it made an effort to do so. But in almost four decades of working in and around the Jewish community, one thing is very clear: effort and Jewish community are two terms that rarely go hand-in-hand. Effort is what the non-Jewish janitor puts in when he cleans and maintains a multimillion dollar building on near-poverty wages with little or no benefits, not what the shul’s or organization’s members do, even when all that is asked of them is to be welcoming.

So, too, as FailedMessiah.com has reported for years (and as the Metropolitan Council on Jewish Poverty scandal shows), the services the Jewish community claims to provide needy members are in actuality for less than advertised.

Federation leaders and other Jewish community leaders could change this. They could also stop the nepotism and cronyism that also seriously weakens the services they claim to provide. Unfortunately, it is unlikely they will do so any time soon.

As for the media and government, both can do more.

The government can do more to target mental health programs for ex-haredim and for haredim, and it can do much more to make mental health services widely available and affordable for all Americans. Just think of how many suicides (or horrific acts of violence like school shootings) could be prevented by doing so.

For its part, the media could stop focusing almost exclusively on the most lurid aspects of suicides of ex-haredim. The shunning is wrong. It is awful. It plays a role in suicide. But so does lack of mental health resources. So does a cold Jewish community led by nepotistic leaders and their cronies. So does lack of research money and treatment center beds.

Suicide is a package, not a discreet one-off item, and it’s long past time for the New York tabloids to treat it that way.

If you or a friend needs help, please call the National Suicide Prevention Hotline immediately at 1-800-273-8255. It's open 24/7 and you can (and halakhicly must) break  Shabbat or Yom Tov to call if you know or even suspect suicide is possible.

Comments

[Ryan S.]

Amen! Fantastic post.

[mike]

great post, thank you

[a good jew]

Yiddish religion,,Hasidic religion is a cover up for every single crime against humanity,, covering up // sexual abuse//domestic abuse//all kinds of abuse,, and lots of Hasidic organizations in the Hasidic community's did cover up abuse in the Jewish communities,,till today's day,, the Jewish religion needs a make over,,it needs a make over in,,loving each other,, helping each other instead of hating each other,,welcoming each other,,welcoming each jew as he/she/ is? ,,as /he/she/ looks,?,tell /him/her/ I love you? how can I help you?? Not shunning /him/her/?? But for sure not when a Jewish victim of sexual abuse comes forward? you don't shun him ? And his/hers/ entire family,,?? You don't shun them from all shulls,,from their own community?? From their own families?? Its so wrong? ,wrong ?,but wrong ? With this kind of terror against a victim and his/her/ family?? You just make them to hate the Jewish religion?? You took them away from their Jewish roots??

[Howard]

Scotty(ex-haredi name Shmarya)--
You must have forgotten to list your own blog as one of the causes of the problem:
You add fuel to the fire on your incendiary blog by igniting haredi-phobia in those within and without the frum way of living a G-dly life.
To save Jews shut down your cite.

[tucsonjew]

Sad this post needed to be posted

[sol]

Nice article.
But....'
Please when you write "we know" and "we also know" please source it. Otherwise your "therefore" we conclude, is idlers.

[Yecheskel Yaakov]

Certainly one major issue is “Jewish Guilt”.
We become so ingrained from birth with Orthodox Jewish Rituals and we are programmed early on that in order to be a “good Jew” in the eyes of GOD and our families and friends, that we have to practice all these proscribed rituals in an exact and time dependent fashion or we’re not good Jews. I call this “RBC; religion by the clock”. We have to do so many things by certain exact times during the day (daven, light candles, eat or not eat (on fast days), etc.) and if we miss by a minute, the mitzvah is gone or the Aveirah is here, and now we’re a bad Jew. For example, the sof zman tefilla was 10:21 today. So what happens at 10:22 ? I can’t daven anymore since my prayers won’t be accepted ? Our Rov says a quick D’var Torah on shabbos from a sefer called “Shorim B’Tfillah”. He recently cited a paragraph where the author wrote that if someone has “bad thoughts” he should recite a certain posuk over and over at least 500+ times until the bad thoughts go away. Well, of course, they’ll go away, since by the 400th verse one is certifiably OCD and on his way to becoming bi-polar.
Imagine the Jewish guilt when someone goes off the D. Couple that with the BS and Jewish guilt/hate that the Chareide family dumps on that person, and he/she is doomed. If someone doesn’t quickly find an understanding therapist, they are so consumed by Jewish guilt and total self-loathing that the best way out is over the railing. I could go on and on but I haven’t davened yet and I’m running out of time.

[Bas Melech]

Sàd but necessary post.

[Shayna G in NZ]

Excellent and timely article.
Thanks.

[martin Samuels]

Basically this article says we have no idea why this woman committed suicide but why not seize the opportunity to write an "excellent and timely" piece of crap in which you tell everyone what could have happened.

There is no doubt that you and your friends would do much better watching porn than reading this I really did not want to write this but I have to.

[Mark S]

Front cover of today's New York Post: a picture of (I presume) Feige, and the headline "LEAP OF FAITH", with a subhead about how she "fled her Hasid family". So rightly or wrongly, religion and/or leaving it is being blamed for contributing to the suicide. Um, I mean, blamed for it by people *other* than the ones here.

[Bas Melech]

The ultra orthodox do not know how to define, let alone, deal with mental illness. They quickly label anyone who questions or deviates from the community's norm as "having problems" or mentally ill. Then they send the inquisitive, different individual to a counselor who reflects the community's values and expectations and agrees with the assessment of the Community.

Associating with a "confused" person would label anybody who attempts friendship with the same stigma. This includes families who welcome them. And of course, the labeled individual can't remain at home to influence siblings.

Rarely does a family admit to a psychological problem or OTD, because of the effect on their standing in the community and all important shiduchim.

Sad, very sad.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Never shun your children. They are still your children, no matter what.

[jancsibacsi]

Bas Melech---Mentally ill people(ultra frummies) dont like competition they themselfs are mentally disturbed its a no brainer.

[MM, Too]

Various reports have surfaced that she had been on medication. A known and ironic side effect of certain anti depressants is the increased risk of suicide during the first few weeks of initiation and during the last few weeks of going off it. One has to wonder if that was a factor.

[Deremes]

Mental illness shouldn't be taken lightly.Any family that has a member with even slight mental issues should go for professional help.

I didn't know the woman im just speaking in general terms.
Leaving the Haredi world in other words an observant Jew who becomes secular cant expect their family to support and still love them as before.If one wants to become modern such as shaving the beard a woman not to dress as she used to etc etc many many parents/families although they will be upset they wont shun their child.Many will understand that their children are not meant to be frum frum.

Once a child decides to be Mechalel Shabbos OPENLY in the neighborhood their parents live or posting pictures online how they eat bacon,dress almost naked or pictures on shabbos no sane observant/Haredi parents will open their arms saying:oh you still my child and i love you as before"

In the very olden days pre ww1/ww2 a big part who left the observant world were learned people they were able to struggle with the new world they found.For the most part they never returned.

Today's days most (not all) who leave the fold are troubled and empty headed.They think they will find happiness in their new found world.After years of good times they see themselves with no accomplishment no money and no family so they become depressed.
There is a famous OTD with excellent writing skills if anyone follows his writings you can see pure loneliness and depression.

The blame should be put on Footsteps.
From what i read and heard about Footsteps its not only the education they are helping they are also encouraging to become secular. They can do whatever they wish but if they will serve non-kosher food on shabbos that doesn't do any good to today's OTD. The outside world which all ex-Haredim are not use to is very tough and strange to the ex.

Footsteps should rather encourage them to become Modern Orthodox which is no big deal and its far from strict and many parents will still except them.Instead they promise them the world and then they are in for disappointments.

Yes, they will put them through an education.But education doesn't mean they will make it and be accepted in the new world. I truly wonder how many who went through Footsteps getting a good education have good well paying jobs. I bet many came back to their Haredi families asking for a job or help with money issues.

Footsteps was originally founded so if anyone wants to leave observant Judaism they shouldn't fall into with the wrong crowd with drugs or suicide. etc etc. Just look at how many lonely people they created.

[Lematameasara]

MM
Can't be... Science is truth. Science is perfect...

[Lematameasara]

I just reread this article. Sounds like an advertisement for the **** Malkie Schwartz and her brothel Footsteps.

[Mark S]

"Can't be... Science is truth. Science is perfect..."

Ugh. Obviously you're no scientist. The best part about science is that we know it isn't perfect!

[Mark S]

MM: I mentioned the medication angle above, and someone else did before me as well. The "story" I told there (not actual happening, but explanation) is from a medical professional, but I do not have personal or first-hand evidence for the truth of it. It does make a lot of sense, especially for the "just starting to take it" part.

[Mark S]

MM: (Sorry, my mention of meds was on the other thread, not here. My mistake.)

[Michelle Marks]

A couple years back, PBS ran a series about the Amish, a group that in some ways is structurally similar to some Haredi communities. One program focused on people who left the community and often ran into the same problems as those leaving Haredi sects. In addition to an organization similar to Footsteps, the segment featured a network of Christians of various denominations who took renegade Amish people into their homes and supported them. These families often included the ex-Amish in their religious activities, not necessarily to convert them, but to make the renegades aware of other faith communities that they could turn to as an alternative to being Amish. Like many fleeing ultra-orthodoxy, the Amish often lacked knowledge of other ways to be religious and had believed that there was no other spiritual option for them.
Since that broadcast, I have often wondered whether non-Haredi Jews (Modern Orthodox, Conservative, Reconstructionist, and so on) could do the same thing -- welcome renegade Haredim into their homes, take them to shul and expose them to alternative ways to be Jewish.

[jancsibacsi]

The secret in being content is not to severe you connection to your family or past it is too drastic to fast from one day to the next if you want to have conflict with your family it is not the way to do it, just go your way gradually.

[a good jew]

If a jew doesn't feel excepted in his own Jewish community?? He doesn't want to live period?? The attitude in our Jewish community must change for the batter ?? The hate must stop,?, the shunning,,the terrorizing must stop?? If not?? the suicide will not stop,? to much Jews in their own Jewish community are so not happy in their own Jewish Hasidic religion,?, because of the/ hate/shunning// terror//ostracism// this must stop,?, today?? In order to stop suicide,?,

[Bas Melech]

Deremes-

The people who seek the services of Footsteps were lonely BEFORE.

[Bas Melech]

Jansci-

The ultra charedim don't like any competition.

All their learning hasn't given them any better analytical skills, comlrehension or common sense. In fact, they decrease.

[Alter Kocker]

The truth of the matter is that those that leave are treated as if they are dead. The shunning is calculated to cause the most pain possible. They want that person to experience grief at the loss of family and friends. That coupled with the realization that the religion you followed has prepared you to do absolutely nothing. You are unable to read, do simple arithmetic, understand science, civics, history, anything. You understand that a secular 10 year-old has a better grasp of the world than you do. That is what the cult wants. The cult wants you to give over everything that is yours. In return, they provide a clean and sheltered world, which while nice, is not real. It provides simple answers to complex questions and is filled with people like Jack, Jimmy, n'aron etc etc who are more than happy to remind you that you are counter to their beliefs, ridicule you for not wanting to be like them, and actually are threatened by your beliefs. All told, they breathe a sigh of relief when you take your own life. If you succeed, it means that they are what we all know they are; so full of shit their eyes are brown. This, kosher conspiracy, keeps em down on the farm, and keeps em ignorant. If they leave, the rabbis want them to pay with their lives. Otherwise, the community sees that the Emperor has no clothes.

[Shmarya]

Bas Melech –

Deremes is one of the haredi trolls I was thinking of when I wrote this article.

His persistent lies, his complete inability to ever admit he was wrong, his complete lack of concern for the damage his lies do to ex-haredim and others – this is what the haredi community really is. It is what their leaders' silence encourages, what some of these leaders privately encourage, and what some of them openly encourage. (I think here of the two Teitelbaum brothers, both stains on the fabric of the Jewish community. One of them is Deremes' rebbe.)

These people are truly the lowest of the low, scum of the earth. And the sooner the rest of the Jewish community admits that, the better it will be for all of us, haredi or not, Orthodox or not.

[Mark S]

Deremes already showed his lack of regard for the truth back in http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2015/07/lying-to-protect-haredi-judaism.html

What actually happened and what people actually said isn't so important, as long as we follow the halacha, he says.

[Mike]

Deremes, you sound like someone who's very happy in life, oh before I forget my point is to counter your post. I am OTD and very happy

[Chafraud-Depravitch]

jancsibacsi,
"The secret in being content is not to severe you connection to your family or past it is too drastic to fast from one day to the next if you want to have conflict with your family it is not the way to do it, just go your way gradually."

Great point. It often seems that Hasidim who leave do so in dramatic ways fueled by rebellion. Sometimes it appears to me that they go too far by throwing out the entirety of Judaism because it's associated with the Hasidism/Haredism that failed them.
If more would have gradual transitions there may not be so much tragedy for all parties. Haredi families might see their loved ones not stray as far if connected by love instead of being rejected, shunned, and isolated. And those seeking some freedom would have the necessary support systems to offer the time to find out who they really are as Jews and as people.

Michelle Marks,
"I have often wondered whether non-Haredi Jews (Modern Orthodox, Conservative, Reconstructionist, and so on) could do the same thing -- welcome renegade Haredim into their homes, take them to shul and expose them to alternative ways to be Jewish."

It's a brilliant idea that would likely save lives and improve the quality of many more.
Leaving the Haredi lifestyle shouldn't be a choice of all or nothing.

[jancsibacsi]

I know of a hassidishe family this happened over 15 years ago whos son jumped of a roof in willimasburg in fact i think it was a teittlebaum the son was married with i am not sure 3 or 4 children i knew the son and the family since he was born,the family was ultra religious the son just could not take it anymore since many of them feel like they are enslaved to their elders and their elders watch every move they make and judge them harshly constantly

[a good jew]

The problem is,,if you are in a religion where your parents promised you that in this religion you will be very very happy it will be,,(( a religion like eretz zuvas chuluv idvash)) and suddenly someone from this sweet religion?someone from your own religion ? damages your (( disabled child)) and your doing the right thing by taking off the dangerous pedophile off the streets,,normally such a father should get the biggest thank you for taking off such a dangerous pedophile off the streets??

[Joseph]

I just reread this article. Sounds like an advertisement for the **** Malkie Schwartz and her brothel Footsteps.

Posted by: Lematameasara | July 22, 2015 at 02:10 PM

If YOU say it's so bad, all the more reason to donate to Footsteps.

[a good jew]

But instead of thanking him his disabled child was being thrown out of his special ed school,,his parents life suddenly changed right away in their own Jewish religion,?, they became terrorized//shunnend//ostresized//harrased in the Williamsburg streets?? The victim is still ,,7,,years at home like a prisoner under house arrest?? Do we blame why we have suicide in our Jewish communities?? Are we kidding?? Who loves to be Jewish today?? To be shunned when you're child is being molested?? Your getting punished for crying out why your child was molested?? Is that so??

[Rebitzman]

Are we really to the point where we can cast aspersions at any one, at any time and without a shred of empirical evidence.......just as long as we phrase it as a question?

And I'm not just asking about the story - half the responses.......

The death of this young woman is a terrible thing - shunning a child is a terrible thing - mental illness is a terrible thing. We can leave it there.

[yossi]

it really doesn't matter if a few jump off the roof or suffocate by hanging or overdose. Jewish life will not change because of some suicides. why would the religion adjust for a few who have mental problems ? Thousands of people die from suicide every year and they are not religious,have no pressure from their community. They just fed up with life.
Those kids are nebech loosers and they don't see any better life by joining footsteps or other organizations who help them to walk away from yiddishkeit.
they will never be happy and are lost neshumes who at the end find them self in a dead end and decide its not worth living anymore. Every jew feels the terrible pain of those kids and their parents but life goes on. we can pray for those neshumes,light a candle or learn a mishne,or give charity for them.

[Deremes]

Posted by: Shmarya | July 22, 2015 at 03:15 PM

As much as you try to portray the orthodox world as the most vile people on planet earth it wont change the facts. In general they/we are good people and good law abiding citizens.

In a way you are doing a "good job" by making us look foolish,but that's life.

About your comment about me writing attacking the deceased or lying about the deceased history it is plain simple not true. I didn't know the woman and didn't write anything bad about her in particular.I wrote in general terms and the facts are facts.

Hardly ever you will find me commenting on abuse issues.

[a good jew]

Yossi you are a shmuk,,from experienced I could tell you that. A child or children or adults who are not happy with life.?? There Jewish life,?, is because they have a problem and there is unfortunately in the Jewish community nobody to who to go to cry out your problem,?, instead yull be shunned and ostracized for crying out ??are you kidding?? Nobody is running away from a religion for no reason?? Okay??

[Deremes]

Btw,i will say this those OTD supposedly friends of hers who attended her funeral are the lowest.They acted like its a celebration.All they wanted is to be noise about the whole sad story.

[Shmarya]

+++"Hardly ever you will find me commenting on abuse issues."+++

When you have you have almost always posted comments supporting the abuser or the rabbis who covered for him.

And on this article, your comment blames Footsteps for the recent suicide – even though Footsteps is the only organization helping ex-haredim and is an organization that connects ex-haredim to social services, including mental health services, and provides much good for them.

You are a disgusting person, Deremes. Your rebbe and his brother are even worse.

[Terrible tragedy]

Shmarya
You are using this tragedy to further your personal agenda.
If you really wanted to help you would call on organizations such as Footsteps to do more with regard to mental health,despondency and suicides

[Shmarya]

WTF are you talking about?

Footsteps – which is a TINY, underfunded organization – does extensive mental health work.

If anyone is using this tragedy to further a personal agenda – one, I might add, that is based on lies and deceit – it is you and your fellow haredi trolls and the rabbis who fail to even try to rein you in.

[a good jew]

Stop bashing or blaming shmarya,,for our problems,?, a jew should be happy in /his/hers/ Jewish religion,?, okay,?,a religion should not be bitter,?, a religion should not feel the worst thing on life,?, A person must be happy in his //her//religion period,,shmarya is not to blame why so many people in our religion are not happy or suicidal,?, we should blame our self,?, we shunned and ostracized lots of,,yiddisha kinderlech,?, unfortunately,?, we didn't give a dam on Jewish crying children,?, and now we have the chutzpah to blame shmarya for our problems,?, for creating a religion where children are taking suicide?? Children going off the Yiddish derech,?, we created that religion,?,

[Chafraud-Depravitch]

yossi,

"Every jew feels the terrible pain of those kids and their parents but life goes on. we can pray for those neshumes,light a candle or learn a mishne,or give charity for them."

You don't feel jack shit and your "Every jew feels terrible pain..." is obviously nothing more than a feeble attempt at giving a little lip service.

Actually saving one of those lives is worth far more than all your prayers, all your candles, your mishna learning, and your symbolic charity ritual combined.

Those are just designed to make you feel good about yourself. Your true feelings are spelled out in your first sentence:

"it really doesn't matter if a few jump off the roof or suffocate by hanging or overdose. "

Really? It doesn't matter?
If that's what's in your heart then your stupid prayers, candles, mishna and charity don't mean a damn thing.

I don't know all of the regular posters here, but if you're an example of Haredi culture, then Jews who need to get out of that culture deserve every opportunity to do so.

[shoshana]

It's a very sad story, but I don't think that using it to attack the Orthodox community is justified. Faigy was clearly mentally unstable, and, as we can see, she wasn't able to fight her personal demons.

She had a potential to be a success story for Footsteps until her tragic end. She was well educated and I'm sure she would have been able to find a decent job, if she wanted to.

She was 30 years old. She wasn't a kid anymore, but people who try to use her to justify their attacks on Jewish Orthodox community, present her as a much younger person. When you are 30 years old, you are on your own. You are really too old to justify your sadness, your shortcomings, or your troubles in life with the fact that Mommy didn't love you. It's time to be an adult. I understand that there are people who due to their mental health issues never truly grow up. However, it doesn't mean that they are not responsible for their lives, or their decision to end it.

Her problems were not specific to a person growing-up in an Orthodox community. Many people from a secular background commit suicide.

One thing that puzzles me is: she went to this bar completely alone? Why? What for? I can't imagine that she was with someone and this person just let her jump. But what she was even doing there?

[yossi]

Posted by: Chafraud-Depravitch
Yes you sure make a point and maybe I written the wrong way. of course I never meant It dosent matter: I lost a very close friend to suicide and know the pain and suffering of the person who took his life and the family left behind.
i expressed it wrong and pull back my words.
thanks for bringing it up

[Bas Melech]

Shoshana-

I asked the same question about the circumstances of the tragic death. Supposedly she ran off the roof. Did someone chase her?

[Terrible tragedy]

Shmarya
When someone wants to help they try to be *smart* not *right* or *I told you so*
I do not believe that it's realistic to expect the Chareidi community at this point to be able it help people who are seeking to help others leave the fold, not respect the community and family when coming to visit dressed inappropriately post about bacon etc
The community may be wrong about this, but it takes a long to change attitudes. Footsteps would and should be the address to help with crises. Did they fail here? Dont know

[yossi]

Shoshana-

I asked the same question about the circumstances of the tragic death. Supposedly she ran off the roof. Did someone chase her?

The Malech Hamuves chased her.
All her problems nebech chased her.

[Elliot]

From the general discussions, it sounds as if there may have been some underlying mental health issues. What if Faigy had a loving family that helped her received the treatment she needed? Unfortunately, the question will remain a hypothetical one.

When the chareidi community loves its OTD children as much as its children who go to prison, I will be happy.

[Shmarya]

Terrible tragedy –

Yes. You're so right. It is unrealistic to expect haredi rabbis and the haredi community to care about human life.

And why should we blame them for shunning and abusing people who choose to leave it? After all, the haredi community may be sick, but it's God's sickness, isn't it?

As for Footsteps, the fact that it was founded only a decade ago by a 20-year-old ex-haredi woman with no money who was demonized by haredim and haredi leaders for founding it – that shouldn't matter. Neither should the fact that with almost no money Footsteps managed to help hundreds of ex-haredim, including with mental health counseling from licensed professionals.

Instead, we should do the haredi thing and demonize Footsteps as we continue to shun and abuse people who leave the haredi community.

That's your argument, you stinking POS. Rot in in it.

[WoolSilkCotton; I must be seen to be believed]

Elliot 6:19,

That last sentence you wrote was brilliant. Thanks.

[Terrible tragedy]

Shmarya
I'm not used to people being so rude and nasty
Can't you try and be civil?
P.s are you familiar with The tu quoque fallacy?

[Mike]

Deremes, you mentioned above a certain writer, without mentioning his name! Well his name is Shulem and the reason why his posts sound depressing is because he doesn't get to see his kids you moron. Yes so called frum community hired the best lawyers to fight him. There ya go

[Shmarya]

Terrible tragedy –

Since we are discussing actions by your community that are ongoing and have their origin in the past, what I wrote can't be a tu quoque fallacy.

Past that, you are a sick, disgusting POS. I truly hope you rot in a hell of your own making.

[Aaron]

Rest in peace. I think it's really sad how from Jews treat Jews who commit suicide.

[Bas Melech]

Defends and friends-

A Jewish woman died tragically. You claim that she was always mentally disturbed.

CAN'T YOU HAVE RACHMONUS ON HER and consider that her actions were a result of her illness?
You would not blame a cancer victim for dying, would you.

Why do you have to trash her for behavior and death she was not responsible for?

[Bas Melech]

Many years ago I knew a young married charedi woman who jumped to her death, the only way she felt possible to escape her abuse.

When I read the headline, I thought, not another one.

This story is not the same, but it effects me like it is.

[gay frum jew]

In the last few years, suicides of young frum men who were gay, shunned by family and community. That is sad.

[Yosef]

Oy. The posting of suicide prevention and let us not shun our OTD children signs in English and Yiddish in all Chareidi neighborhoods, ideally endorsed by the local community leaders, Rabonim, and kashrut organizations would be a mitsva of saving lives, in my opinion.

Another way to fight depression in the frumma world is to wear colorful clothing with pastel colors. Down with the black and white uniforms!

Part of Charedei culture is to cover up mental illness. Mental health is scrutinized for in shiduchim (and in normative secular dating) There is a genetic component in mental illness as well as many physical illnesses (eg metabolic, some neurological, and lipid storage disorders, colorectal cancer, height and weight issues, etc) so people in general want to avoid marrying into a family with something that may be hidden.

However mental illness and individual susceptibility, resilience, response to various therapies and support, all mean that societies who shun are more harmful than societies that are more open and willing to see and stress the good points in people. I would be very happy if my kids married spouses of excellent character even if they had some mild anxiety or depression or any other illness that did not prevent them from functioning. We all struggle from time to time and need extra support.

I have also seen what some may call a cover up of suicide by blaming death on unintentional drug overdose so the 20 something ex Chasid could have a typical Jewish funeral and burial. "While under the influence, he took more and more at different times until he stopped breathing. Its not that he took all the pills at once. He called for help when he felt ill but help was delayed for 25 minutes and he was too far gone when help arrived." Who knows? Give the deceased and the grieving families the benefit of the doubt and call it unintentional. Have mercy; Don't rub salt in a wound.

There is, however, the lack of ambiguity in Feige's case of intentional behavior EXCEPT if a drug reaction. Hopefully an antidepressant with a bold FDA warning label for increased suicide will be found in her system and this will be publicized to spare her family. Or perhaps another toxin (perhaps a street drug) will be found upon forensic analysis of tissues and fluids. I think Chareidi culture is awful and deserving of constructive criticism but the suffering of her family should be minimized.

[Spaced out BT]

To lay the trolls to rest I must add the following: Modern Orthodoxy has been treifed out of existence in so many Hareidi neighborhoods its not an option. In order to find and integrate into a MO community the individual must undergo a personality transformation since the average Young Israel may not be amenable to those who are poorly socialized. Some MO shuls are already becoming Litvishe wannabes with all the shtarked out bochurim coming back from Israel that the shul reminds OTD's of their former existence.

[Spaced out BT]

OTD's need Ahavat Yisroel- not kiruvspeak and certainly not judgmental scorn like some of the views posted.

[n ' Aron]

A great blog of classic Scott here. He is the prosecutor jury and judge of the situation. She comitted suicide because of her family shunning her. Because footsteps didn't have enough money to rescue her. Perhaps because her boss didn't give her a raise. Soon you'll say it because she was abused and sexuality molested by her father rabbi.
Do a little research. She was a depressed woman trying to impress her world with her wit and wisdom which she failed miserably. In her last move she succeeded beyond her wildest imagination. She is finally getting the recognition she so craved. Sadly she is not alive to enjoy it. Oh well ce la vie.

[Mark S]

n'Aron: okay that last paragraph was just sick and cruel. Talk about blaming the victim.

[Wigmore]

"When the chareidi community loves its OTD children as much as its children who go to prison, I will be happy."

Posted by: Elliot | July 22, 2015 at 06:19 PM

+1

[Chafraud-Depravitch]

n ' Aron,

"She is finally getting the recognition she so craved."

Not yet. But hopefully someone will finish her "Ex Hasid's Guide To NYC" app and dedicate it in her memory.

I wish I had the ability to do it myself.

[Spaced out BT]

Really inappropriate, N'Aron. The best description of Faigy comes from her secular friend posting on Vagabond. Don't judge until you read.

[sam green]

Shmarya your right but the fruma could care less about people personally they just think either your with us or your shit and anyone like footsteps really trying to help people by them are evil its truly sad

[Shmarya]

N'Aron is one of the haredi trolls I wrote about in my article.

And what he wrote isn't just "inappropriate," it is evil, sick and twisted – just like his rebbe.

[Kelly]

Aronchik writes:
"... it['s] because she was abused and sexuality molested by her father rabbi."
That's not nice to say. Even if it's true it's loshon harah. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Read the Chofetz Chaim.

[Abracadabra]

"When the chareidi community loves its OTD children as much as its children who go to prison, I will be happy."

Posted by: Elliot | July 22, 2015 at 06:19 PM

+1,000,000

[Jeff]

n'Aron is a prime example of the sort of personality produced by their system of indoctrination. May their world quickly be relegated to the dustbin of history where it belongs.

[Jeff]

Some MO shuls are already becoming Litvishe wannabes with all the shtarked out bochurim coming back from Israel that the shul reminds OTD's of their former existence.

Posted by: Spaced out BT | July 22, 2015 at 09:56 PM
__________________________________

This is a very important point. As a result of Haredi intimidation and Modern Orthodox insecurity, there has been a sharp move to the right within Modern Orthodoxy over the past few decades. The snatching up of their young people during the customary year in Israel between high school and college has been part of the process.

Shaul Magid wrote an article about this several years ago:

http://www.newvilnareview.com/features/is-there-an-orthodox-war-against-modern-orthodoxy-.html

[Rebitzman]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3171346/Woman-jumped-New-York-rooftop-bar-wrote-harrowing-letter-friends-death-telling-pain-strict-Hasidic-Jewish-upbringing-struggled-life-quitting-faith.html

I stand corrected.

[jancsibacsi]

n ' Aron--YOU ARE A BATLAN AND A MORON, LOOK INTO YOUR OWN BACKYARD WEBERMAN,WEBERMANS FATE IS WROST THEN DEATH

[jancsibacsi]

Meant to write worst then death.

[Danny]

In answer to your question 3, suicide rates are far higher outside the Jewish community, so NO is the answer

[WoolSilkCotton; I must be seen to be believed]

Here is her letter to a friend, as published in the NY Daily News:

I remember being in the third grade and my mom and I wrote a list of all the girls in my girls-only hasidic Jewish girls' school. The school was a part of the Hasidic sect of Belz. The purpose was to find me a friend. We went over the list to see if there was anyone I wanted to be friends with. I don't remember what happened after we went over that list. However, I do remember that clearly nothing was accomplished, and until I left the religion of hasidic Judaism at the age of 24, I would not have any friends. I thought a girl named Chevy was my friend in the 10th grade, but when she had to tell her sister that I was at her house, she said: My classmate is here. I remember being stung by her not referring to me as her friend.

It is now, having recently celebrated my 5 year anniversary for leaving hasidic Judaism that I realize what my problem probably was. It was probably due to the fact that my mom's parents are converts to Hasidic Judaism, my grandmother had most of a college degree from Brooklyn College at the age of 18, is highly intellectual, and I take after her and strongly identify with my American roots. I wasn't able to have anything to dish about with my peers. I couldn't share with them my love for reading books on the Olympics. I liked my teacher Mrs. Binet in the 7th grade. She was "cool." Belz was right-wing enough to make all married teachers wear hats on top of their wigs if they wore a wig and not a silky scarf-covering. Mrs. Binet was chastised for wearing a hat a bit too fancy. Trendiness was not encouraged. That was the austere environment I was in.

I didn't know that leaving the faith was an option to me until the age of 23 when a secular relative told me I could. I didn't know that I will never get married to a hasidic guy. When I was 16 my uneducated mom personally diagnosed me with bipolar and given the family situation when I was 18, I was allowed to attend college and then graduate school. But when I was 18 or so, I remember wondering about what if I would have a boy? A day at Belz school from pre-1-a to the end of high school was divided in half. The two parts of the day were "Yiddish" (the first half), and "English," the second half. I purposely flunked out of Yiddish as I knew there would be no consequences as there were separate diplomas for English and Yiddish. In August 2004, at the age of 18, I was accepted to Touro College with only my diploma and no transcripts as hasidic schools refuse to provide transcripts. But hasidic boys aren't as lucky as hasidic girls. They do not know simple math such as division or fractions. That is because their day isn't divided in two. They have only "Yiddish" all day. I remember wondering what I would do if I would have a son and he would be subjected to the torture of learning Yiddish all day. I remember my teacher Mrs. Gips teaching us the laws of kashrut and she was obsessing over accidentally using a dairy utensil in a meat pot and without knowing the word, Bulls---, that is what I was thinking, and failing that class and so many others was the smartest thing I did. Without knowing I was agnostic I refused to study rules that were clearly not applicable to 2001. This was the same with the Lammed Tes Meluchos already in the 6th grade. The Lammed Tes Meluchos are the 36 commandments kept on Shabbat. I remember one commandment forbids tying knots on Shabbat and my teacher taught us all the loopholes to tying and untying knots. I was chastised to decorating my lammed tes meluchos book and making it too fancy, but the actual studying of the Hebrew words that I wrote so fancily never happened.

I discussed the above to try to explain what happens to intelligent children with American backgrounds. However, I feel as though Hasidic Judaism shouldn't exist at all. My 3 nephews are being raised in a very strict hasidic Jewish environment. It isn't fair to them that they have to live their lives the way they do. The most fun they have is to color with crayons. Even if I would be allowed to be in their lives, they would not be allowed to play games on my iPhone. Basic joys American kids get on a daily basis my nephews don't have. Instead they have long hours at a Cheder, which is a boys' school, where they are forced to sit in one place and study Jewish laws and history with ZERO time for sports. On TV today, I watched Roger Federer play at Wimbledon and the guy I was with explained that the winner needs to win 3 sets. Ordinarily, I would believe that my nephews will never see tennis...But I had a conversation last night with two friends, Yangbo Du and Jason that suggests otherwise.

Jason and Yangbo were talking about how Facebook, in a brilliant marketing effort, created a 501c3 called internet.org which gives free internet connections to those using facebook.com, getting all that ad revenue and making money that way. Then Facebook gets even more money by charging if the user uses any domain other than facebook.com. I disagreed with Jason on his stance that Facebook shouldn't be doing this. I see how atheist hasidic Jews pretend to believe and Facebook is their only outlet for speaking with like minded Jews (unless Facebook is tipped off that their account is fake and automatically deletes it). But rabbis do not allow computers or smartphones, so internet.org couldn't help my people. The next part of our conversation is something I think people would find eye-opening. The austere lifestyle my people face of arranged marriages, strict segregation of the genders, the wife shaving her head, the couple having sex with the wife wearing a bra in the complete dark (hole in the sheet, anyone?) but still producing 13 children generally throughout her lifetime, working for cash only so that Uncle Sam can help with food stamps, section 8, and Medicaid and seeing on average worse doctors because they have the worst insurance...Jason thinks that that might end in 20 years.

Jason has a hasidic landlord so he had a specific example for me to illustrate his logic: His landlord was 3 weeks late replying to his email about a broken air conditioner. Therefore, his electricity bill was through the roof and he refused to pay a month's rent. Jason said his landlady explained that she doesn't have the internet so she was unable to respond to his email in a timely fashion. However, now that she lost a month's rent, will she find a way to check her email every day? Probably yes.

Right now rabbis are winning. One of the characteristics of a cult is a charismatic leader. These charismatic rabbis are saying no to the internet. But can you survive without the internet? I worked for about 5 years throughout college for my aunt on a part-time basis. She and my uncle are running an exterminating business out of their home. They face incredible difficulties by not having the internet in their home. Once I stopped generating a report on chemical usage, they had their consultant do it. Their consultant has to physically come to Boro Park to put the data on a USB drive and then she will work with it. This is now.

When I had to renew my NYS ID, I did so online. what if in 20 years you have to go online to get a birth certificate for your child. I have mine on paper. Does that make sense? A hasidic mom with 13 children needs those birth certificates so that she could get food stamps for her child as soon as that child is born. Will she go online so that she can get her food stamps? I believe she will. And once she is online, she might come across a story on the home screen, and that might make her think about her harsh life, which she embraces, but she is embracing it without thinking. IF PEOPLE WERE ALLOWED TO THINK, THEY WOULD NOT BE RELIGIOUS. Thinking analytically when it comes to basic life decisions is something new to me and something I still struggle with, 5 years after leaving.

[n ' Aron]

Jeff the likes of you have long been delegated to the dustbin while these filthy jews that you so curse are still tickin and kickin. Think Egypt rome greece of long ago...and your dammed jews. It's ok..your curses are a blessing to me and my ilk.
FYI that app you are talking about.. ex hassid guide to ny was nothing more than a figment of ms. Meyers creative imagination. Certainly worthwhile looking into and oursuing.. just call in an ace an ace.

[WoolSilkCotton; I must be seen to be believed]

The haredim have been around for less than 200 years. They are isolated into perverse little self-created ghettos. They are despised by everyone who has the misfortune of interacting with them.
That's what you call success? Congratulations!

BTW, ancient Egypt, Rome, and Greece civilized the world. The haredim have had the opposite effect.

[my humble thoughts]

The chassidim are to blame, particularly the Belzer girls (and the hanhalah)where the problems began.. but so is the UJA Federation that is funding FOOTSTEPS with their $2 million dollar annual budget and
multi-million dollar building.

Faigy said it in writing, herself -- she went to Footsteps being told they will help her become "modern orthodox" but in fact, she learned that is not what Footsteps was about at all -- they help you leave. And when you got nowhere to go
and nothing else, not a roof over your head (bc your family kicked you out on the street), you take kindness from whoever gives it (the documented reason why reportedly so many teenage runaways end up in prostitution -- the pimp started out as a " kind loving boyfriend" when the teen was vulnerable and trying to leave a bad
situation).

The problem with Footsteps is they aren't really there for you all the way. People need support throughout life. You fall on
hard times, lose a job, need a place to live -- basic necessities -- and it can happen at any time in life. 5 years out and Faigy fell on hard times. She was desperately looking for a job, she was being evicted and needed a roof over her head, he owned 12 boxes worth of worldly
possessions and missed and loved her amily dearly -- and still referred to her chassidic community as "MY People." But where were the Footstep people who had convinced her to completely transition out?

I asked another Belzer guy I met in 2010, who was going to Footsteps -- the same time Faigy was recruited there -- "Is it true they are serving 'Chazzir' at Footsteps?" And his response was, "Noone forces you to eat it, you can keep kosher,
but I can assure you that noone is encouraging kosher either."

Now it may be Ysoscher Katz has valid points in his "Forward" article in saying all of the community is responsible for this death, since 'we are responsible for one another', but he has NO credibility. He is using this as a platform to push his own organization "Frum but Stuck". Yet, ironically, he, himself, sent his own son to Footsteps, too -- and now his son Samuel Katz, openly acknowledges he too is a pork eater, on an NPR interview.

Not sure what it is about PORK and BACON and Footsteps' fixation on it. It's as if it is a right of passage there... that's the one thing their alum all come out professing -- the love of bacon or pork.

And there have been many reports how Footsteps doesn't help everyone who comes from a chassidic place and seeks guidance to ahigher education. They will support your desire to "Self-determination" unless you are self-determined to stay Orthodox. In their defense, Footsteps says they have a limited budget and can only help people are willing to get with the program.

So what is their program exactly? To
eat pork? Is that the test -- much like a "hazing ritual."

The religious community (chassidic, charedii, litvish and modern orthodox) is to blame for letting this sore to continue to fester within our community. Either SHUT DOWN FOOTSTEPS or take over Footsteps and get the pimps out of our children's lives.

Malky Schwartz -- we dedicate this korban to you.

[Shmarya]

my humble thoughts –

I really find it amazing that you can lie about something like this.

Footsteps exists to help people who WANT to leave the haredi community leave it as safely and successfully as possible. It has very little money, most of which goes into programing like counseling and in having a safe space for ex-haredim to gather.

They don't make people non-haredi, they don't do secular missionary work to convert haredim into seculars, that don't force ex-haredim to stay away from Modern Orthodoxy or stop helping ex-haredim who choose Modern Orthodoxy.

Those are the facts.

It is also a fact that the vast majority of ex-hasidim want nothing to do with Modern Orthodoxy (or, for that matter Conservative or Reform Judaism). It is very well known (even among haredim who deal with OTD kids) that ex-hasidim almost always move to the opposite extreme. Just as their community was extreme in its religious belief, ex-hasidim often become extreme in their hatred for religion. What makes them this way isn't Footsteps – it's their rebbes and their parents and their former teachers and former neighbors.

This same extreme reaction is seen when non-Jews leave extreme religious communities, as well.

Add to this the fact that Modern Orthodoxy is moving ever rightward religiously, so much so a lot of Modern Orthodoxy is now Modern Orthodox in name only. And the parts of MO that have resisted that push to the right have largely become Open Orthodox, meaning they support greater inclusion of women in public religious roles and are at the left end of the MO religious spectrum – something that is almost never appealing to ex-hasidim.

There are facts, not conjecture.

As for you and the other haredi and haredi-esque trolls here, understand this well: your lies and misrepresentations do not make the haredi community stronger. You're just proving true what Faigy and so many others who have left the haredi world have said about the communities they left. You live in a community of darkness and regression, a community that exploits and damages its weakest members and cares nothing for the truth. Stop your lies.

[Terrible tragedy]

Shmarya
I've addressed you civilly,yet you respond with the most foul mouthed ad hominems. People who have a strong case don't usually resort to nasty curses.
I really wish you find some inner peace so you don't have to project on others

[Shmarya]

Please.

You lie. You troll. And then you whine about how I respond to those lies and that trolling?

Here's a thought for you: waddle out of here.

[WoolSilkCotton; I must be seen to be believed]

Shmarya 12:05, kudos.

Terrible/Humble 12:11, you are a lying sack of shit. Die a painful death, and soon.

[Terrible tragedy]

Woolcotton
Anti Semites don't target only Chareidim they despise ALL Jews.
Your logic is reminiscent of assimilated German Jews,who thought Hitler did mean them

[Terrible tragedy]

Wool
Find inner peace so you don't need to project

[Shmarya]

Terrible tragedy –

Stop trolling or you're done here.

[my humble thoughts]

You know I am not "Lieing" -- if that is Footsteps mission, then they need to be explicit... but they pretend as if they don't push any agenda, while there clearly is an agenda. And lots of peer pressure.

Seriously, a 18, 19, 22, 24 year old is trying to escape the ghetto and soem really bad circumstances, doesn't always mean he wants to throw everything out. what Judaism needs is the quivalent of Covenant House and let people figure the rest out once they have their basic needs secured and provided for -- as Maslow suggests.

Just look above and see what Faigy wrote herself about her introduction to the group. She was told they will help her become modern orthoodox. (Of course, to any chassid, modern orthodox is the same as eating bacon, so what's the real difference?)

I want to know, why do so many Footsteppers boast about their acquired taste for Bacon, Pork, and/or shellfish? I tend to think something more is going on there when people are at the most vulnerable point in their life. If they want to eat pork -- gezunteheit, let them eat pork. But not in the way Footstep encourages it -- a badge of honor to shout from the rooftops.

[my humble thoughts]

here it is in her words:

Faigy wrote, in March:

In November of 2009 I attended a Thanksgiving celebration at Footsteps, the non profit for ex hasids, where I met many ex Hasids for the first time. The funny thing is that I was told they would help me become Modern Orthodox, not leave the faith which is what they do.

On March 26, 2010, my parents and I had a discussion. Probably through a “spy” at Footsteps, my parents knew that I had decided to leave the faith. They asked me if I’m going to Chulent, a place where some Jews smoke weed on Thursday nights. I wasn’t. My mom asked me if I ate ham. I hadn’t tried ham or bacon by then but they knew that I had decided to leave! That was the start of my journey away from the life I knew.

The next five years were incredibly hard but also incredibly rewarding. I’ve sort of lost all my family but I’ve made many amazing wonderful friends instead. I am so grateful for the life I have and the blessings therein! I hope to blog to share my story. I am learning a language called Python so I can create my own blog. I hope to be an inspiration for others who leave, although given my story, I’m not sure I recommend it for everyone.

It’s been 5 years and I’ve made it!

Side note: FB has a pic section for this “life change.” Here’s the background story as to why I couldn’t do a before and after pic:

I think my parents knew that I’ll be strong and manage to leave despite my personal obstacles. My dad in 2012 casually said he thinks I’ll write a book about my experiences. That is probably the reason why they are withholding my photos of my life up until 2012. I do not have any baby pics of myself. I don’t think it’s human to withhold your daughter’s photos from most of her life. I’ll figure this out!

[Singer]

Thank you for this. You're brave and I appreciate your thoughtful logic.

[Shmarya]

Please.

Your BS questions have been answered numerous times. You just lack the ability to understand those answers or the desire to do so.

To recap for you:

1. People who leave closed extreme religious communities rarely choose to more moderate versions of the same religion. They very often choose (note that word: choose) to be secular. They do this in part because of the particular problems specific their former sect or group and in part because of the problems all religions share.

2. Footsteps helps ex-haredim and supports them as they make their OWN CHOICES about what type of religious observance they want to have or not have. Very few choose Modern Orthodoxy for all the reasons noted in my comment above, along with the fact that almost none of the ex-hasidim choose Reform or Conservative Judaism, either. They are rejecting all religion.

3. People eat bacon because they like it. That's the same reason why they eat shrimp. And when you've grown up in a community that teaches you that eating an Entemann's OU-D doughnut is the same thing as eating treife and you will suffer in hell because of it, eating bacon and shrimp doesn't seem like such a big deal.

4. You expect people whop leave the haredi world to remain religiously observant and you blame them and Footsteps and me and everyone else for their lack of religious observance. But you don't blame your rabbis or your community – even though they are who you should be blaming.

5. No one owes you or your religion or your sect or rebbe anything, least of all people who step in to help the ex-members you shun and abuse.

6. As for a Jewish Covenant House to help and house homeless Jewish kids and young adults, Covenant House doesn't exist to keep kids Christian or to convert kids to Catholicism. It exists to help homeless kids, keep them off very dangerous streets and save their lives. Covenant House has helped a large number of ex-haredim and other Jewish kids over the years and had an Orthodox rabbi I know who worked with it. But when he (and later when I) tried to get the Jewish community to fund Covenant House, it wouldn't do it, and it also refused to fund a Jewish version of it, and your rebbes have never done a thing to help these kids.

Work hard on processing all that.

[Shmarya]

+++"…Faigy wrote, in March:

In November of 2009 I attended a Thanksgiving celebration at Footsteps, the non profit for ex hasids, where I met many ex Hasids for the first time. The funny thing is that I was told they would help me become Modern Orthodox, not leave the faith which is what they do.…"+++

~~~~~~~~

Again, what Footsteps does is help people leaving the haredi world become whatever they want to be religiously.

If they want to be MO, Footsteps has MO people it connects members with.

The same for Conservative, Reform, Renewal, etc.

But the vast majority of ex-haredim (especially of ex-hasidim) want nothing to do with religion at all, for the reasons I and others explained several times above.

Faigy doesn't say Footsteps lied to her. What she says is she believed one thing and saw that it was another.

However, WHY it was that other thing and who told her the first thing she doesn't say.

But the facts are as I have repeatedly written. Ex-haredim, especially ex-hasidim, almost never opt to be religious once they leave. They opt to be secular, they opt to be atheists. And they do so for the same reasons people who leave other closed religious communities do so, not because of some dark conspiracy led by Footsteps.

What you don't seem to understand at all is that Footsteps gives their clients something no hasidic or haredi community ever gives its members – free choice.

And given that ability to choose, the vast majority choose to stay away from your religion and from people like you.

[Jeff]

N'Aron - as I keep saying, we'll see who's left standing at the end.

[WoolSilkCotton; I must be seen to be believed]

Terrible tragedy and My humble thoughts,
Fuck both of you.
I wish you both the most painful deaths imaginable.

[rebitzman]

Interestingly enough - the Forward has an OpEd that agrees with Shmarya's POV right down the line.

[WoolSilkCotton; I must be seen to be believed]

And let me add n'Aron and Lematmasara to my 2:10 pm post.

You who mock and spew vitriol at the deceased deserve the worst suffering imaginable. It is already quite miserable for the four of you to look in the mirror and see your own filthy reflections. Loathe and despise yourselves. God hates you. So does the rest of the world. Kill yourselves now. May cancer already be spreading throughout your disgusting bodies.

[Mikal W. Grass]

I saw a video of part of the men leaving the funeral home. I didn't see one woman. Where were they, locked away lest the sympathize with the deceased?

[Shmarya]

+++"Interestingly enough - the Forward has an OpEd that agrees with Shmarya's POV right down the line."

Posted by: rebitzman | July 23, 2015 at 02:25 PM +++

I doubt that very much, and I suspect you are mistaken about what my point of view is.