New Square Modesty Rules Order Gender-Segregated Sidewalks

The beit din (religious court) of Skvere hasidim released a letter detailing modesty rules hasidim must follow. Among those rules is the order that men and women have to walk on gender-segregated sidewalks, women on one side of the street (or a wholly different street), men on the other.

Please click to enlarge:

Comments

[gevezener chusid]

It is talking to people coming to (New) Square for Shavuos (as well as other times)... but in any case, not "new"

[jewish patriot]

On what side do tranny's go on

[jancsibacsi]

Its like the planet of the apes here we have (square)=Anthropoids trying to domintae humans

[JACK]

This is at least 2 years old,
must be running out of stories,
even though personally i think these rules are idiotic and have absolutely no basis in HALACHA whatsoever,being it's voluntary and not being enforced it does not violate the law

[Sarek]

("The Sidewalks of New York" a/k/a "East Side, West Side")

East Side, West Side, we each will stay apart
Our kids think this is normal, just like the days of pushcarts
Boys and girls can’t mingle, just like we can’t eat pork
We must not walk together on the sidewalks of New York

East Side, West Side, not only in Brooklyn
We just came from a bris, poor kid just lost his foreskin
It is considered modest to walk on separate sides
If we don’t our tuchus will get a patch on our backsides

[gree]

oiy ve now I cant git intoo mye has. it on the wrong sid of de strit

[JACK]

Someone should tell that ignorant so called REBBE,that instead of worrying about husbands and wives walking together on the street,he should be worried about the multitude of child abuse that has come to light in the last few years in New Square

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@JACK-----> even though personally i think these rules are idiotic and have absolutely no basis in HALACHA whatsoever,being it's voluntary and not being enforced it does not violate the law

Once again, JACK...you show that you are a product of 1) a dysfunctional school system and 2) a dysfunctional (and completely bigoted, but that's another issue).

If you use your computer search functions, and do a search on "Jim Crow", "Separate but Equal", and "African-American living conditions in the American South 1870-1954".....and you will see that no, it's not legal to separate the races, the genders, etc.

You'll learn discrimination is illegal, and that there's really no such thing as "Separate but Equal".

Not that that will make a difference to you and the rest of the haredis, b/c as we have seen time and time again (especially by the growing numbers of haredis in Otisville) you people have no real regard for the laws of the country where you reside. You regard them (at best) as "Goy Laws" and compliance is voluntary at best.

And you wonder why numerous other Jews view you and your cult as an embarrassment to the rest of us.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

I meant to say "Once again, JACK...you show that you are a product of 1) a dysfunctional school system and 2) a dysfunctional (and completely bigoted, but that's another issue) way of thinking.

[dh]

I dunno, Robert. Hasn't there got to be something illegal about this? Subversion, or something? I'll bet we could find it.

[dh]

If someone can translate this and I can use a copy of it, I'd cite the intent to change or subvert the social order of the United States and send it to my hero, Preet Bharara.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@dh----> I don't do civil rights law, so I don't know what specific provisions...actually, I think there's got to be something under (I think) it's Title 1983 or something of the US Code..or Section 1983....but again, I don't do civil rights law.

(My own practice area is Title 8, so I don't really pay attention to the other areas...)

I'm assuming you are being sarcastic about Mr. Bharara. However, I don't think it would be too hard to get a Federal Magistrate Judge to issue a preliminary injunction blocking the enforcement of this.

[Jeff]

Anyone ever do anything wrong in Chabad, Jack?

[Nacho]

Don't they also control what you must serve at Shabbos meals, so everyone eats the same?

[JACK]

Robert
Separate but equal is illegal if it is enforced,but not if it is VOLUNTARY,the residents living in New Square voluntarily decided to use separate sidewalks why would that be illegal?.
There is a popular Wedding hall in New Square that is being used by the general public,you have nightly hundreds of people coming and going from that hall who don't belong to New Square and those rules are completely ignored,
How a supposed attorney (if you really are one) does not see the difference is beyond me,
wouldn't want you to represent me,that for sure.
by the way Robert,why all that hate and rage against religious Jews?

[jancsibacsi]

JACK--Voluntary is when someone on his own does it and not when being asked,asking implies coercion,especially in new square.

[dh]

Nacho, that's inside one's own domicile.

But the streets are public. These are rules that attempt to change how the public utilizes government (our) funds and property, by order of the Beit Din. Is it not true that certain secular courts in NY give a nod to the rule of the Beit Din?

We already know how the community enforces community mores such as reporting crime to police and dress codes not met by students, use of electronics, penis sucking of infants and youth etc.

[dh]

Thanks, Robert.

[Dovid]

Jack, if the signs were in another town and said Jews keep to one side and don't mingle with Christians, you'd be ok with that and claim it's not against the law?

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@dh----> Anytime.

@Dovid---> Brilliant point.

@Jancsi---> Brilliant point...as usual.

@Jeff ----> Again, a direct hit.

@JACK----> by the way Robert,why all that hate and rage against religious Jews?

It's because you (and your fellow Jews) aren't really Jews, per se.

As Jeff has said here many times, (and better than I could have said it) you have taken the Jewish religion, and grafted it onto ---->

1) a cult (with several different sects- Satmar-Lubavitch, Bobover- but it's still a cult)

2) a longing for a way of life that is gone forever and not coming back (ie; we aren't living in 18th century Poland anymore, and we never will again)

3) a rejection of all things modern (except basic conveniences like cars, dishwashers, computers), in the mistaken belief that this somehow makes you more holy

5) A rejection of anything-beyond-basic education for your children and youth. I'm sorry, but a Yeshiva degree is not much use in the USA in the year 2014.

Basically, most of us (modern) Jewish folks don't really consider you so much "Jews", as "Jews who inhabit their own world".

I could go on and on and on, but I have things I need to get done today.

[dh]

It's okay with Delta, so they think it should be okay with everyone. And so far, it is.

[dh]

It used to be that when ppl asked if the Chabdniks in our neighborhood were Amish, I would explain. Now I just say "Yes." I hate to compliment them, but it's easier.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

JACK----> What I should have added (even though I do have things I need to get done today)

...is that the end result of the behaviors that I have described in 1-5 above is that most of you (not all, but most) live in poverty and ignorance.

Poverty b/c your large families and lack of income force you to rely on Local/State/Federal government for housing, food stamps, Medicaid, etc....not that there is anything wrong with that per se, but to voluntarily place yourself in a situation to where, if you don't receive those things..you don't survive...I don't see what's admirable about that.

Ignorance because of your refusal to attain anything but the most basic secular education (and sometimes not even that) for your children. I'm sorry, but being ignorant of US History, basic English, math, and all the subjects taught in modern-day American Schools is nothing to be proud of.

As Jeff has said here numerous times, poverty and ignorance in and of themselves are not crimes. But the deliberate embrace of them is.

[dh]

I think forcing that on one's children is the crime.

[Flatbusher]

A respected Rabbi , father of 20 (twenty) children, Taubenfeld, whose wife I assume goes on the other side of the street,(but in the nocturnal hours not ) and whose children too probably separate by gender on the sidewalks of New Square; who wears his tzitis outside (not chas vsholom under his shirt) has long rekel/jacket (not chas vsholom 3/4) was arrested due to credible evidence and testimony that he sexually molested a child over a long period of time.

So did the other Taubenfeld brother.

Here is the $64. question:

if the Square Town is so holy, the Rebbe so scrupulous , the Beth Din so attentive to the slightest detail in the code of Jewish Law, how could this crime --- which the lowest 'goy' considers immoral --- happen in Holytown. Bigger question: : how could they cover up and protect these criminals?

Why the obsession to the fringe details, while trampling the core?

Where is their morality? Do they think that people don't notice?

Perhaps one question answers the other: because they obsess on sexuality, and repress it so deeply , the human psyche after a while rejects it and rebels.

They eventually abhor this fundamentalism which causes the Rebbe et al to become even more fanatic and the cycle continues!

Oy ... how do you break this stupid cycle!

[Michael-Meir]

Is the New Square Beit Din Tzedek an agency of government whose edicts can be enforced by official municipal police officers? If not, then the segregated sidewalks edict is merely an exhortation to the faithful by a private religious body that has no secular legal standing and its edicts cannot be enforced by sworn police officers or village executives.

I don't think the government has any ability to ameliorate the non-violent social "punishments" imposed on segregation violators. Shunning, for instance, is part of the constitutional right to free association.

The edict seems odious but legal.

[dh]

I disagree. This uses my money, my property for abuse of civil rights towards protected classes. If they want to do it on their private property, go ahead. And they are doing it under color of authority. At the very least it needs to be tested.

[dh]

I know nothing about Jewish law, have not researched its effect on secular law. This is from one single Google search, but it produced this: "decisions of a beit din are routinely upheld by courts". Certainly there is sufficient more, both pro and con, to test this.

Who will have the guts to do so?

[Miami rocks]

Old news makes paper for fish n chips.

[dh]

Yep. Well, Silver taking money for ten years is old news too, but the FBI and USDOJ just got their hands on it, didn't they, genius?

[jancsipista]

Flatbusher----The only way to understand them is by comparing new square to iraq under saddam hussein if you remember iraq under saddam was called the republic of fear,fear in new square is their ultimate weapon.

[JamesMadison]

Dh- Ur ignorance is truly shocking! Courts regularly upholds Beth Din rulings because Beth Din's constituents Arbitration Panels. When people agree to binding arbitration, the Arbitrators decision is binding according to federal law! That's why courts uphold BD decision, not because federal courts like the Jewish rabbis... Of course, arbitration is only applicable to civil cases and is not related to discrimination on public streets.

As far as these posters go, these posters are not issued or posted by governmental agencies but rather by private organizations. These organizations have no legal authority and, as long as they are not posted on public property, probably constitute protected speech. These rabbis, misguided as they are, have the right to free speech. That they choose to exercise their right for this purpose is wrong headed, misguided, and just plain wrong.They have the right in America to be all those things.

As far as

[JamesMadison]

*Beth Din constitutes Arbitration Panels

[Nacho]

Do gay Squarer men walk in the middle of the road, or with the other men?

[dh]

JamesMadison, when you can decipher the English language, give it another try.

Further, these were posted on public property - but then again, since you can't properly compose, I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Also, it is customary to add enough verbiage to at least complete a thought and hopefully a sentence. Perhaps you became so agitated you dropped dead.

[dh]

Nacho, no. The middle of the road is where Ms Watts is. They send the peekers there for spankings.

[A woman rabbi]

Here's an important distinction - what happens if people violate this edict? If compliance is enforced in some way, the enforcers may be acting under color of state law and thus violate federal civil rights statutes enacted to prohibit such abuses in the South. (I'm also an attorney).

[dh]

Isn't that already going on in every religious school that gets even one cent of government money? Isn't that going on in the East Ramapo School District that's being investigated up one side and down the other? Isn't that going on in California where His Royal Majesty Cunin got his slimy hands on government money and then distributed it to Chabad schools who enforce modesty dress codes and don't report child abuse?

What happens is nothing.

[JACK]

James Madison,
you are wasting your time with these Jew haters,facts don't matter to them they say don't confuse me with facts as long as they can bash the religious Jews,
I responded to this idiot Baron (who claims he is an attorney,but i highly doubt it) with exactly your argument,and his only answer was,that he hates me and all frum Jews,these idiots hanging out in Shmaryah's basement behave like little kids in grade school,when they have nothing to answer back with,they start spitting and cursing

[dh]

The only ppl that aren't afraid of taking the very religious crooked Jews to task are racists that aren't Jews.

[dh]

And Shmarya...and a couple others.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@Flatbusher----> Perhaps one question answers the other: because they obsess on sexuality, and repress it so deeply , the human psyche after a while rejects it and rebels.

Flatbusher, I'm not sure. As I've said previously, it's been years since I have done criminal defense; and while I was doing it, I didn't get cases dealing with child abuse/child molestation.

Most molestation is not done by strangers, but rather by family members or friends of the childs' family. What drives someone to molest- I have no idea. A number of molesters have wives and children and function in "normal" society; so they aren't doing it (entirely) for sexual gratification; I've always believed that there is some sort of power trip or authority trip going on; ie, the person molesting the child is doing so because he or she can; and/or is in a position of authority.

I'm not sure how much the repression of sexuality and sexual behavior come into play. The Catholic Church was rocked by child molestation scandals during the 2000's; and some people opined that it was the forced celibacy of the priesthood that led to child molestation. Given that a priest could very well hire a prostitute for sexual release, I frankly question the extent of the "celibacy leads to molestation" equation.

As far as the haredis go...I don't know if in fact there is a causal connection between repressed sexuality/repressing normal sexual behavior and child molestation. Remember, correlation does not necessarily equal causation.

But I'm sure it would be a fascinating research study.

[dh]

It's a way of life.

[JamesMadison]

Ok dh, so after I point out your lack of knowledge and reading comprehension, you attack my writing skills... You are truly a professional idiot and troll. After you figure out basic American law, please come back and offer a cogent argument...

BTW how do you know it was posted on public ptoperty? And if it was posted by private individuals, what crime did they commit? Doesn't even the KKK have the legal right to scream their hate speech in the public square? I'll await you ignorant answer as soon as you dig you head out of your ass..

[JamesMadison]

JACK - at least Barron usually examines the issues before commenting...

[dh]

JamesMadison, who wrote that for you?

Actually, I pointed out my lack of knowledge. My reading comprehension is fine, yours is not in that you couldn't even remember or comprehend that.

No, I am not a professional idiot. I am a professional lawyer. I am merely an idiot to my family and friends on the weekend.

There is no "basic American law". Do you refer to the Common Law? That is entirely different and was born in England. Of what do you speak you brain dead idiot?

I know it was posted on public property because that was made public and also posted on FM. You can determine what crime they committed by looking that up as well as following up the reasons why those postings were taken down.

As far as the KKK, no, I don't think they have the right to "scream." They have the right to march. You may want to research what occurred in Skokie, Illinois.

My head doesn't fit in my ass. But yours certainly would. You are a pinhead.

[dh]

JamesMadison | December 30, 2014 at 09:09 PM With you, one needn't examin. You are one of the stupidest ppl in the universe.

[jimmy]

Robert Barron,
You are quite the windbag and I"m sure I"m not the first that has told you that.
Your posts are pompous,way to looong, boring and very ignorant.
I know that statistics are not you strong points (though pomposity is..)but do you know how many Haredis are in Otisville,the example you used and where a large portion of Hareidy inmates are jailed (probably no more than 50)Do you know how many Hareidis reside in this country?(my guess would be a ball park figure of 250 to 300k)
The incarceration rates in this country are over 700 per 100 000, over 1 percent of the adult population is incarcerated.
The Hareidi percentage is way lower than the rest of the country and I dare say way lower than the rate in the general secular Jewish population.
Calling Janci brilliant, something even Jancis mother would not call him, just shows what an ignorant ass you are

[dh]

Therefore, JamesMadison, since you know nothing from Common Law to Skokie to current events, it is not humanly possible to have a conversation with you.

If you wish to learn and display an opinion from which we can all interpret and learn, pro and con, agree and disagree, fine. Until then, you are relegated to the inhuman form and I shall not recognize It.

[jimmy]

"@Jancsi---> Brilliant point...as usual. "

[JamesMadison]

Actually basic American law refers to the federal Arbitration Act of 1925, buttressed by state laws which regulate Arbitration. Beth Din's operate under that authority, and under that authority alone. That you didn't understand that from the article you read about BD demonstrates your inferior comprehension skills.

Once again, where did you see that the poster was placed on public property? The poster was hung inside the New Square synagogue and was distributed to families in New Square. How do you know it was posted on public property?

Actually, I suggest you research the Skokie case. The Supreme Court AFFIRMED the right of the KKK to march and proclaim their message, irrespective of the offensive nature of the message. I do not believe that you are a lawyer, and if you are, you must be a subpar one.

[dh]

Let me reiterate this to It. There is no such thing as "basic American law". There never has been and there never will be. This is an impossibility. The Common Law is as close as one can come.

Let me also reiterate this to It: "I know it was posted on public property because that was made public and also posted on FM. You can determine what crime they committed by looking that up as well as following up the reasons why those postings were taken down."

Let me reiterate, sigh, to It: "As far as the KKK, no, I don't think they have the right to "scream." They have the right to march. You may want to research what occurred in Skokie, Illinois."

Inhuman things do not have the apparatus to "believe". It needs to oil its springs thoroughly and stay away from the damp.

I shall not recognize It again. I have been kind enough to repeat to It that which It could not understand the first time. As an It, It does not have the capacity to learn not comprehend.

Poor, poor It.

[JamesMadison]

Jeff - as per our conversation yesterday, do you honestly think that an ignorant ass like dh needs to be commenting? I honestly think that we can use less ignorance in the public square, not more. Commenter like dh do a disservice to themselves and the readers. The sad thing is that dh actually thinks he is making strong points when he points out the "vital" distinction between "American" law and "federal" law. Whatever. Who gives a damn about some wannabe lawyer who quotes Skokie without having the decency to actually know what the SCOTUS decision was.

[JamesMadison]

As far as this poster goes, I will reiterate. It's stupid, childish, wrong, and should not be posted. It's also not illegal.

[dh]

There is a distinction between federal law and state law. Neither is "basic American law". There is no such thing as "basic American law". There never was, there is not now and there never will be. Common Law grew out of the laws of England. Common Law is the foundation from which the laws of this country were born.

Poor, poor It thinks dh is a "he" and fails to realize that "Skokie" cannot and was not quoted, but was referenced by the It regarding the word "scream" as a means of expression of the KKK. Poor ole rusty It fails to realize little dh is on his side and stated such regarding the right of the KKK to march. It needs his Ovaltine.

dh and others would agree that It is, as stated, "stupid, childish, wrong, and should not be posted" but disagrees that It is illegal, as far as little dh knows. dh does not know what It is doing with his scotus or to whom.

dh makes reference to another story on FM tonight and as the late great Luise Ranier said to Louis B.Mayer, little dh says to It, "It, you are an old man, by the time I am 40 you will be dead."

God bless you, It, and happy new year.

[JamesMadison]

Oh, so now we have a funny wannabe lawyer... At least you find yourself funny...

One thing is funny though, watching dh backtracking on Skokie....

Wth gonna go to sleep and let the funny wannabe lawyers laugh themselves to sleep.... GOOD NIGHT SEATTLE!

[dh]

It: Doesn't even the KKK have the legal right to scream their hate speech in the public square?

little dh: As far as the KKK, no, I don't think they have the right to "scream." They have the right to march. You may want to research what occurred in Skokie, Illinois.

It (agrees with little dh): The Supreme Court AFFIRMED the right of the KKK to march and proclaim their message, irrespective of the offensive nature of the message.

little dh reiterates what It doesn't understand that he agrees with: "As far as the KKK, no, I don't think they have the right to "scream." They have the right to march. You may want to research what occurred in Skokie, Illinois."

little dh tries AGAIN to explain to It that YES, in Skokie, the KKK had the right to march (not to "scream"):the word "scream" as a means of expression of the KKK. Poor ole rusty It fails to realize little dh is on his side and stated such regarding the right of the KKK to march

It (completely lost): watching dh backtracking on Skokie

RIP, It.

[nachos]

Somebody stole my identity. There is only one nachos

[JamesMadison]

Whoa dh is backtracking so fast he is tripping over his spindly legs....

You were agreeing with me with that Skokie comment, right...

Once more let me point out that dh agrees that the Beth Din in NS has a constitutionally protected right to publish and disseminate offensive materials in the public square, and the law cannot stop it. Yet dh also believes that there is a crime being committed gere. Got it, bozo. Dh is a lawyer, see...

[dh]

Well, there. I've gone and done it. I've picked apart the nonsense of someone who was probably born the same year as his moniker and who has Aricept for a snack. I can't begin to tell you how proud of myself I am.

Now I'm going to go write a hundred times, "Don't engage with the Its".

[JamesMadison]

Damn it's tiring arguing with brain - damaged idiots. I'll just go to sleep now. I'm sure I'll wake up to another funny comment from the king of jackoffs...

[dh]

A woman rabbi @ 8:43, Anyway, I think "compliance is enforced in some way,". It must be, particularly based on what jancsi said, fear. They are kept in line by fear. So I think you are likely right. They are enforcers acting under color of (I call it) authority, violating federal civil rights laws.

Realistically, though, looking at what is going on in this country at the present time, I wonder who would take this issue and put it in front of the black issue.

Dividing the public thoroughfare by gender based on religion under order / color of authority of a religious court - it is screaming to be tested. So ripe.

[jimmy]

DH
I guess I must be very dumb
I just can't figure out why JamesMadison is so stupid?
I don't know who is right or wrong, but I see nothing "stupid".In fact he is quite articulate.
Oh!
Maybe that's the problem.
You like sounding smart and he is not letting you.
Time to use ad hominems,eh?
Oh what an ass you are!
(whether you are a he or a she)

[ruthie]

the more i see of these subjects......it seems all they think about is sex.

[Jeff]

"Jeff - as per our conversation yesterday, do you honestly think that an ignorant ass like dh needs to be commenting?"

"Oh, so now we have a funny wannabe lawyer..."

JM, dh actually happens to be a lawyer. She won't bother to tell you so herself.

I'm not really following this thread and I haven't read all of the comments, but you must realize that I agree with her in principle. She and I have had issues with one another, but at the end of the day, I'm far more toward her side than I am toward yours. This can't come as a surprise (although I do see your point about batei din being equivalent to arbitration panels - but of course, that doesn't mean I think the power they wield is morally acceptable).

It may very well be against the law to post these pashkvilim (sp?), but there is a much larger issue here. New Square has become, essentially, North Korea. It's a completely psychotic parallel reality. No one, even in the frum world, should be tolerating it. We had some hope a couple of years ago, after that horrible incident with Aron Rottenberg, that the feds and/or state authorities would go in there and take over, even that Twersky would be prosecuted, or at least forced to step down. Of course, all that happened was that a disturbed, misguided (and probably not overly bright) kid, very possibly obeying instructions, took the fall and has had his life ruined - and you know the reason. Everyone is scared to death of Haredim because of bloc voting. It's the reason, among other things, that Haredi schools are able to get away with not meeting state requirements.

Bloc voting, while legal, is a terrible scourge and a shander. It's a tragedy we can't find some way around it.

[JamesMadison]

Jeff - I'm not talking about the slissue at hand, and I do know your opinion. What I'm talking about is the public lying, deception, and ignorance with ad homing attacks which are uncalled for and don't add anything to the discussion. Dh is a perfect of all that above. As far as being a lawyer, I'll take your word for it even though I find it difficult to believe.

[jimmy]

"the more i see of these subjects......it seems all they think about is sex."

Ruthie,
I wonder if you an translate what you wrote into English
OR, maybe you are Jancis stepdaughter?

[Jeff]

Well, I'm sure she isn't lying and and she isn't ignorant, certainly not about the law. Robert Barron is also a lawyer, and he agrees that posting these to enforce gender segregation is illegal. If you claim it's merely a suggestion and that it isn't enforced - well, that wouldn't be apparent to anyone on the outside looking in (and it likely doesn't affect the legality, in any case).

The problem is that Haredim, especially Hasidim, live in isolated enclaves and are used to answering to no one but their rabbonim and rebbaim. They're often unaware of secular law, and don't much care about it when they are aware of it. If you're serious about wanting to change things in your world, this may be a good place to begin.

And again, the larger issue in this thread is New Square. That's just a horrible situation and another potential disaster waiting to happen.

[jimmy]

Jeff,
Square is not representative of many Hareidim, certainly not of the Yeshiva world.By that I mean the Chareidim who are part of the Lakewood community for example.
They have specially built up a community of like minded followers who choose to live together because they seek to live a more spiritual, in their eyes at least,life law.Nobody is forced to live there and in fact its very difficult if not impossible for someone who did not study in the local Square Yeshiva to live there even if he is a follower.

I"m just giving the background a bit because reading what Scott has to say about them you get a terrible idea about these people.
They are by and large kind, good people.Like anywhere else not everybody is a saint.After all about 8 thousand people live there.
Scott, was a member of Lubavitch and had very little interaction with regular Chareidim who are very, very different.The average Lubavitch follower does not have all that much in common with the Hareidim Scott reports on and Scotts ingnorance and lack of understanding shows all the time.On top of that Scott does not know Yiddish or Hebrew which really handicaps his understanding and reporting.
Now, I"m not a lawyer but I"d be surprised if what they do in Square is illegal.It's a request to segregate the sidewalks and to dress in a certain way.It's not enforced, and just to prove the point, the signs are in Yiddish not English, meaning that its a request geared towards community members

[noname]

@jimmy
You havent responded to what it means "they don't enforce"

Are you suggesting that a local who doesnt follow the rules wont have their kids thrown out of school? Really? Really? Mothers who proudly walk on the wrong side of the street suffer no social consequences from doing so?

The entire world already knows that davening at the main shul is not voluntary.
If there were any flyers saying "daven in the main shul" its not likely the flyers would have said this is 'required'. It is simply not necessary to use such language - it is muvan me'elav. The few people who might have been too stupid to realize that indeed it is not voluntary have been told loud and clear with the Rotenberg case.

You know very well that at the end of the day it is actually required- in legal terms this is "under color" as the woman rabbi said earlier. Suggesting that a flyer of this sort in this type of neighborhood with the history they have is voluntary is hogwash.

[noname]

And speaking of the main shul, not sure who above admitted the flyer was posted there but yet claimed the shul is "private property".

Davening in the main shul is required (unless you didnt go to their Yeshiva in which case you cant even really live there as per jimmy at 10:22) - more like its the city hall - not private property. Most likely built with all tax or government money anyway.

[noname]

Jack, if the signs were in another town and said Jews keep to one side and don't mingle with Christians, you'd be ok with that and claim it's not against the law?

Posted by: Dovid | December 30, 2014 at 03:46 PM

Dovid, good question but I will edit slightly for proper relevance:

If the signs merely asked the Jews not to mingle with the Christians that would be a GOOD THING in the eyes of the Chareidim. On the other hand, if the sign said White Christians on one side and Jews Blacks and Hispanics (no matter what religion) on the other, THEN the Chareidim would complain....

[noname]

@jimmy
"Nobody is forced to live there and in fact its very difficult if not impossible for someone who did not study in the local Square Yeshiva to live there even if he is a follower."

You tell only part of the truth.
True: You cannot live there if you arent one of them and or went to their Yeshiva or whatever other criteria they've decided upon.

Not true: Nobody is forced to live there. Really? What about someone who wants to daven in another shul (and is willing to walk a few extra minutes)? What happens to custody of the children when someone who is supposed to live there doesnt want to anymore? Hmmm...

So while it may be true that its difficult to move in, it is none too easy to move out (kinda like the Hotel California...)

[Jeff]

"They have specially built up a community of like minded followers who choose to live together because they seek to live a more spiritual, in their eyes at least,life."

Yeah, maybe a long time ago. Now, it's just about power, primarily the Rebbe's. Even as far back as the seventies, when the Jewish Catalogs came out, they were telling people that if one wanted to explore Hasidism, New Square was not a welcoming place to go.

"Nobody is forced to live there"

I rather doubt that - I'm sure there are people who *are* forced to live there - but even if it's the case, as others are saying, once you're there, it's a dictatorship. Aron Rottenberg was set on fire because he and a group of friends were walking down the road each evening to daven with a friend who was in a rehab facility, undergoing chemotherapy. They were not merely visting the sick, they were forming a minyan for him - two of the greatest mitzvot one can perform - and Twersky was losing his mind over it.

And then, when he tried to move out (which was what they wanted him to do), each time he had a buyer for his house, the buyer was called anonymously and threatened. They told Aron, "We want you to leave with nothing!" These are not heimishe or ehrliche people, by your standards or mine.

Honestly, jimmy, there is just no way to paint a rosy picture of New Square.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

"@Jancsi---> Brilliant point...as usual. "
Posted by: jimmy

Jimmy, (and JACK, for that matter), I rather happen to think that Jancsi makes brilliant points. I don't know how far he went in school, but I think he (and Ruthie) have a great deal of wisdom, and I always enjoy reading his (and Ruthie's) posts.

I think both he and Ruthie make you two very uncomfortable because they live in, and see the Haredi up close.

BTW, Jack, you seem unconvinced that I am in fact an Attorney.

Feel free to look up my information in places:
www.utahbar.org and www.okbar.org

I'm licensed (at the State level) in both Utah and Oklahoma; and my attorney registration numbers are Utah- 8741, and Oklahoma- 18337.

Yes, I realize that will require considerable effort on your part to operate the computer machine and actually look for something, but trust me- you can do it!

[noname]

@Jeff

I heard he was davening in the rehab/senior center with his son because his son or his sons' friends had been molested in the main shul and he was keeping his son away from that environment.

Noone is forced to live there - as long as they are willing to flee with just the shirts on their backs....
(leaving behind real estate for which there is otherwise a market and possibly even children makes sense in a dictatorship, happens all over the world all time time)

[Jeff]

"I heard he was davening in the rehab/senior center with his son because his son or his sons' friends had been molested in the main shul and he was keeping his son away from that environment."

I didn't read that, but it might have been part of it - but there was an ill friend in the local rehab facility for whom they were making a minyan regularly.

The point is that they were schlepping a half mile, mile down the road each night and back in the winter cold and snow to help out a sick man. This is already tzaddik territory - and Twersky lost his shit over it.

"Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?"

[Jeff]

Meanwhile, I was thinking we could hire someone to go to Williamsburg, Boro Park, Monsey, New Square, etc. and tear down these leaflets.

We could call him "The Hound of the Pashkevils".

[jancsibacsi]

Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law----"What drives someone to molest- I have no idea. A number of molesters have wives and children and function in "normal" society; so they aren't doing it (entirely) for sexual gratification; I've always believed that there is some sort of power trip or authority trip going on; ie, the person molesting the child is doing so because he or she can; and/or is in a position of authority".
You hit the nail on its head power and a position of authority i know it first hand i wont go into it but i wrote here many times i think you know about it as a 10 year old in europe i was in the mikva molested luckily if you can call that luckily just one forndles by no other then our elder shohet and moel he was in his 60 s i was like paralyzed never ever told my father out of fear and thinking back came to the same conclusion as you, he the shohet felt he can do anything this is whats happening in new square and all the other hassidishe place he was so respected he felt he is infallible and in a way he was right he got away with it.

[jancsibacsi]

Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law---Meant to write fondled just once by our town shohet and moel sorry for the mistakes.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Jeff: brilliant

[Jeff]

;-)

[old time brooklyn]

Very good Jeff - I have had men and women tell me of one experiences that have never left them