Haredim Refuse To Sit Between Women On Delta Flight, Cause Delay

Again. Another international flight, this one Delta Flight #468 flying on December 20 from New York’s JFK airport to Tel Aviv’s Ben Gurion airport, was delayed when haredi men refused to sit between women.

Above: a haredi man sits on an airplane in 2013 enclosed in a plastic bag meant as a protection against ritual impurity coming from cemeteries the plane flew over

Haredim Refuse To Sit Between Women On Delta Flight, Cause Delay
Shmarya Rosenberg • FailedMessiah.com

Again.

Another international flight, this one Delta Flight #468 flying on December 20 from New York’s JFK airport to Tel Aviv’s Ben Gurion airport, was delayed when haredi men refused to sit between women, the Times of Israel reported based on a report today by Israel Radio.

The flight crew of Delta Flight tried to find other seats for those haredi men, but other passengers, many of them Israelis, refused to move – some because they did not want to be separated from friends or family and others in protest.

The haredi men finally sat down – but only after an American passenger changed seats to accommodate them – and the plane took off after the 30 minute delay.

A similar incident on an El Al flight in September caused a much longer delay described by passengers as a “nightmare.”

Haredim have repeatedly demanded these last minute seat changes and disrupted flights in other ways over similar modesty issues over the past several years and have engaged in conduct that would normally provoke arrests. But airlines have been reluctant to report misbehaving  haredim to police and the air officials, in part because of the fear haredi leaders will order a boycott the carrier involved and in part due fears of violence from haredim similar to the attacks staged by haredim against Egged buses in Jerusalem.

Related Posts:

All El Al Posts.

All Egged Posts.

Comments

[Feminista]

If they refuse to sit between 2 women then they should be required to reserve and pay for all 3 seats in a row, or to travel with a couple of men or relatives that can cushion them from contact with non-related women. Based upon their willingness to violate other rules on a regular basis, I am still not convinced that this ridiculous behavior is not merely a ploy to get a better seat like an aisle or window seat.

[Metzizah b'pagan]

Can we have no Haredim flights? I don't even want to be on a flight with a smelly haredi.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Is there some way I can request to be seated in between two immodestly dressed women?

[jancsibacsi]

This is the latest generation of ultras who has no shame whatsoever,the older generation never ever dared to behave this way ,todays generation thiks the whole world has to bow down to their every idiotic wishes,someone has to stop them form even going further just like the taliban next physical violence on nonjews, on other jews they already accomplished that.

[Flatbusher]

While this behavior on an airplane is reprehensible and make huge chillul Hashems,and Charedi leaders are making it worse by their silence, the comment here "smelly Charedim" ,is equally reprehensible.

[A Yid]

Since the airlines don't want to get them arrested
and this problem is not going away they should accommodate them and other passengers by finding a legal way to sell sits to those who prefer to sit next to the passengers of the same gender. They can even charge an extra fee for this.

[David Foreman]

A Yid: You realize that selling seats based on gender would be illegal right? I wonder how the headlines would read if non-Hasidics demanded to not be seated next to Hasidim and how much would the airlines tolerate that behavior.

[Expatriate Owl]

Flatbusher:

What about the one I sat next to on a flight to Chicago? He really, really did stink of body odor!

Which wouldn't have been so bad, except that he was complaining because the copy of Business Week magazine I was reading had an ad showing a picture of a woman in a bikini. He wanted me to put the magazine away.

[In all fairness, I have also sat next to some who did attend to their personal hygiene.].

[Allan]

@A Yid. - “they should accommodate them and other passengers by finding a legal way to sell sits to those who prefer to sit next to the passengers of the same gender”

No they shouldn’t. It’s not the airline’s job to play matchmaker between passengers. You want to sit next a man? Then have a male friend purchase that seat, or buy it yourself and leave it empty.

I hope that Delta is not getting as bad as El Al in allowing these overgrown children to play musical chairs prior to takeoff.

[Sarek]

No one has the balls to say:
"This is the seat you reserved. You have 2 choices: sit here, or deplane."

[rebitzman - $101 to read my posts]

To be fair, 30 minutes late on a Delta flight means that it's actually 2 hours early.

[egar]

How about...if you want to sit ONLY next to a man, find a man who wants to sit next to you and buy your tickets together. DONE! (But the airlines should remove anyone who causes this kind of disruption on the plane.)

[jancsibacsi]

rebitzman-- I came back from israel on delta about 4 years ago and they were punctual.

[egar]

Just out of curiosity...the photo accompanying this article shows a man in his seat on the airline, and it appears he's shrouded in plastic (as if it's raining or some such). What's that about? And, please don't tell me some bubbe meinse that it's halacha.

[light]

egar, see

http://dovbear.blogspot.ca/2013/04/by-azigra-this-picture-was-posted-on.html

[dh]

light, thanks for the link. Someone sent me the top one this morning, but I'd never seen the one on the bottom. Funny.

rebitz, lol.

[Rocky]

Just put them on a no fly list and let them take a ship nexttime, or let them stay home.

[David]

I am not aware of any halacha that prohibits sitting next a person of opposite gender in public transport. In any case wouldn't the armrest act as a mechitza?

If they don't want to sit next to women they can try to make that request when they book the ticket. If the airline can't do that they can purchase empty seats next to them or organize to fly with friends or relatives as others have said.

Under no circumstances should they make a chillul hashem and disrupt flight operations like this which is probably illegal anyway and enough to get them thrown off or even prosecuted.

[AndrewMelville]

I always carry a small spray bottle of water, bacon and a used tampon - highly effective if a smelly Hassidic tries to sit beside me.

[S M L]

At some point they're going to have to be forcibly stopped. Bloc voting, bloc boycotts - enough! They're like army ants, swarming over and taking over everything in their path.

[hia5]

I've discovered one sure-fire way of avoiding such problems. Book a flight that leaves the US on a Friday afternoon on any airline (other than El Al, of course). You're guaranteed a haredi-free flight. And do the same on the return flight.

[ruthie]

if i were on that plane, i would have been arrested

[Enoch]

Or he could sit at the bathroom the entire travel.

[m]

haredim should be banned by law to ride planes with normal ppl .

haredim should have their own planes ,
3 times the ride of a reg plane ticket .

just like their food , ' kosher 'meat X 3 times the price of reg meat AND COLD CUTS
X 4 times the price of reg cold cuts .

[Bina]

If that ever happened to me, I would not have budged. They would have had to drag me off, and if they did that, I would have sued. I wish I could throw some period blood on them. Maybe that would render them impure for life? Haha! That would be a good tool to shut them up! Stupid dumbass mothrrfuckers!

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

I don't believe this.....even after reading similiar stories on here for years about haredis and airlines, I just don't believe why the airlines aren't doing one of several things ----->

1. The "No-Fly" list as suggested by Rocky.

2. Giving them the choices that Sarek suggested.

Between my nephews' Bar Mitzvah and an Immigration Trial in Seattle over the last week or so, I've spent quite bit of time on planes, and they clearly announce that when you are on a plane, you must obey the orders of the Captain and crew. Not "should", but "must".

I still don't believe why the flight crew is not calling the TSA to have a disruptive passenger or passengers removed. Just beyond my comprehension....

[Heblew]

There is another angle to this story which no one is discussing. Even if a Haredi man be OK with sitting next to a woman, he must still protest from peer pressure. Being a Haredi Jew is like being a gang-banger. You must periodically force a woman or gentile out of their seat to prove your worthiness. Don't want to raise holy hell on a goyish flight? Then your kids will be kicked out of yeshivah.

[dh]

Geeeez, they just kicked a guy off for getting upset for getting told "Merry Xmas" one too many times.

[Yair Davidiy]

The airline wants their money.
The airline should therefore find a way to accommodate them and be happy about bit.
Ten to one that is what will be done.
What's the big deal?
Same in Israel with the buses.
Why the hypocritical criticism?
I travel on a bus.
I pay for my seat.
I prefer a certain order of seating.
No-one is doing me a favor.
In Israel Egged has a monopoly on bus lines.
Egged will supply separate seating for the Orthodox community or else the Hareidim will break their monopoly and create their own bus lines as they have already done in some places.
These lines are cheaper, more efficient, and more frequent.
Down with secular hypocrisy and systematic extortion of the weak.

[jewish patriot]

Once as a teenager I traveled to Isreal on an Elal flight I sat next to my cousin , in the back compartment there was a group of gerer chasidim and in their section were some non chareidie people so they told us to switch seats with them . It was my worst flying experience they didn't let the stewardess do the serving 2 gerer guys did it , they turned off the flight entertainment , it was 11 hours of hell .

[Jeff]

"it was 11 hours of hell"

You see what they're like. You see how they impose their will upon everyone around them, Jew and gentile. Why do you then ask Shmarya why he's bothered by Satmar's takeover of a neighboring town that doesn't want them?

[Jeff]

"Down with secular hypocrisy and systematic extortion of the weak."

Yair, you should stick to looking for the ten lost tribes. This is obviously above your level of mental capacity.

[Joseph]

Posted by: Yair Davidiy | December 28, 2014 at 12:40 AM
Please, start your own bus lines, airlines and your own country, Let the Palis merge with Haredistan and separate.

[Wigmore]

I wonder if the concept of Chilul Hashem is even taught in chareidi schools any more.

[Jeff]

I'm sure it is, but they're taught that a moser, an informer, is committing chillul Hashem. I'm sure they're taught that someone who inconveniences others to avoid sitting next to a woman or seeing a film is full of yiras shamayim.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@Yair ---------->
I travel on a bus.
I pay for my seat.
I prefer a certain order of seating.

Let me explain something to you...we live in AMERICA. In America, the Supreme Court has ruled that segregation by race, gender, etc, is illegal...meaning, not legal, meaning, "You can't do that."

There are white people in the South (and probably other parts of America who also travel on buses, and pay for their seats, just like you do- but who don't want to sit next to, or near black people. But the Supreme Court has said that blacks can't be forced to sit in separate parts of the bus.

By analogy, your refusal to sit near women (or allow a woman to sit near you, using a ticket she has purchased) on a plane, is gender discrimination.

We don't do that in America.

I think you have two choices.

1. Charter a plane (meaning, essentially, rent a plane) that way, you can fill the plane with your fellow hasidim, none of whom would be women.

2. Simply not fly on a gender-integrated plane.

It's not about doing you a favor. This is not about you. This is about you obeying the laws of the country in which you reside.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@Jeff ----> You see what they're like. You see how they impose their will upon everyone around them, Jew and gentile.

I agree with you, for the most part. But as far as the airlines are concerned, there are some airlines with backbone. I think it was reported on this blog around/about eight or nine months ago that AirTran kicked a number of haredi students off a flight b/c they would obey the orders of the crew to put away their cell phones.

Frankly- in my opinion- all it would take would be for El Al and the US Carriers who fly to Israel to have some of these folks 1) thrown off flights, 2) placed on a no-fly list, and 3) prosecuted in Federal Court on disorderly-conduct charges for word to spread like wildfire in that community...."Don't fool around on an airplane. Take your seat and be done with it."

In that sense, that community is childlike. You make it very clear that unacceptable behavior will not be tolerated, and then after a punishment or two...they will get the message.

[old time brooklyn]

rjb - all reasonable point.

I would have asked for $500 and taken it from there - cash only. I actually did something likes that a few years ago but another time.

[mythreecents]

I have to confess that I, also, would be concerned about ability to breathe, hygiene being an uncommon concern in the frum community. (Sorry, I live here, and have also attended schul a few thousand times since moving here). While a majority of frumma may take showers, once again we see a great example of a minority disrupting the peace of the majority?

... Unless, of course, you've figured out a way we can hold our breath for so many hours.

[Jeff]

You're right, Robert, but who among them has the backbone? I'm sure they'd be terrified of a discrimination lawsuit.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

Jeff, you make a good point about the airlines being scared of discrimination lawsuit.....

Now, from what little I know about the law in that area, I'm pretty sure they would win such a lawsuit, b/c when you are on an airplane...there ain't so such things as "rights"...LOL LOL LOL.

Simply put, the directions of the Captain and crew have to be obeyed. Not "should" be obeyed, but have to be obeyed. And by booking a ticket on that aircraft, you are agreeing to those terms and conditions.

But quite frankly, I would not be surprised if it's the cost of defending such a lawsuit or lawsuit(s) that makes the airlines a bit hesitant to take on the haredis. Yes, airlines have their own legal departments. But those folks (from what I understand) are transactional lawyers. To defend a lawsuit, you need a litigator/litigators.

And we aren't cheap. Delta or El Al would probably end up having to hire a some lawyers in some blue-chip, white-shoe firm where the billing rates start- I mean START- at 300/hour and go up from there. And those firms don't assign just one lawyer to work on a matter- there are usually two or three associates, two partners, etc....not to mention the support staff.

Yah, Delta and any other airline would probably win - or have the case dismissed on summary judgment- but after having paid how many thousands in legal bills? They may say to themselves that it' just isn't worth it.

[Jeff]

>> Posted by: Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law | December 28, 2014 at 09:43 PM

Well, you know I already don't have a high regard for your profession, and you know the reasons.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@Jeff----> Well, you know I already don't have a high regard for your profession, and you know the reasons.

Yup. But I think you have lots of company- I don't think too many people have a high regard for my profession!

[Jeff]

:-)

[Elijah]

Saudia, the national airline of Saudia Arabia has recently announced that they will segregate men and women on all flights. The only exception to this is if the woman is the wife or female child of the man travelling. Where seats are not available, the females will have to move to the segregated sections.

Examples are given where a male stranger sits next to the traveller's daughter as this would be a breach of customary or religious law.
Only Saudia staff of the same sex are allowed to serve in the segregated sections.

Further good news is that all Saudia flights have a segregated prayer area on board and segregated lounges at the airport. None of the meals on the plane have pork, other special meals are available.

You can book a Saudia flight from New York to either Riyadh or Jeddah, then with Saudia to Amman. From Amman fly with Royal Jordanian to Tel Aviv (Yaffo).

Royal Jordanian does not indicate if segregated seating or airport lounges are available, however, Kosher meals are provided on board. For the return trip, Royal Jordanian passengers are provided access to the Dan Lounges in Tel Aviv (Yaffo).

[Carol Myers]

As a Jewish woman, I find the Haredim to be offensive to my gender, not to mention a mockery to Jews, whom most are reasonable, and law abiding.