Study Shows Haredi Community Would Likely Be Almost Extinct – If Not For The Holocaust

Dr. Michal Shaul found that the haredi community was rapidly shrinking in the decades before the Holocaust and likely would be virtually nonexistent today if the Holocaust had not spurred a rebuilding effort by a few haredi Holocaust survivors who used a combination of the lie of haredi authenticity and survivor guilt to rebuild.

 

Study Shows Haredi Community Would Likely Be Almost Extinct – If Not For The Holocaust
Shmarya Rosenberg • FailedMessiah.com

A new study shows that if the Holocaust had not happened, the haredi community would be virtually nonexistent today, Ynet reported.

Dr. Michal Shaul found that the haredi community was rapidly shrinking in the decades before the Holocaust and likely would be virtually nonexistent today if the Holocaust had not spurred a rebuilding effort by a few haredi Holocaust survivors who used a combination of the lie of haredi authenticity and survivor guilt to rebuild.

"In the early 20th century, the world of Torah was in a deep crisis. Jewish Orthodoxy was nearly extinct. It was consumed by the Jewish Enlightenment movement, Zionism and Socialism, and there was a major shift towards those movements. According to estimates, there were only several thousand yeshiva students in Eastern Europe before the war,” the study’s author, Dr. Michal Shaul, told Ynet.

But the Holocaust (and the successful founding of the State of Israel, which many haredi rabbis opposed) spurred an urgent rebuilding movement led by survivors who realized that if urgent action was not immediately taken, there would be no haredi community to speak of in just a few years.

"It's likely that without the Holocaust, the Torah world [i.e., the haredi community] would have become extinct," Shaul said.

But the denial of what European Jewry was like before the Holocaust and the impact of the Holocaust on the haredi community are often subjects that are swept under the rug by the haredi community.

"The haredi society sees itself as an authentic memorial of what existed before the Holocaust, although that's far from being accurate. This [false myth] is what allows them to overcome,” Shaul said.

She also noted that hasidic communities try desperately to ignore the fact that when rebbes were rescued from the Holocaust – often after telling their hasidim for years leading up to the Holocaust not to leave Europe – their hasidim were left behind, and most were slaughtered.

When these hasidic dynasties – like Satmar, for example – rebuilt after the war, they instituted days of celebration for the day their rebbe was rescued – all but forgetting the duplicity and manipulation that often preceded the rescue and which left the hasidim behind to die.

"The day of salvation celebrated by many hasidic movements is presented today as the joy over the salvation of the Torah and of the entire Hasidic dynasty, rather than as a day of personal joy for the rabbi. The day of salvation strengthened the myth of the Torah rescue miracle in our time, and the status of rebbes as those who restored the world of Torah. Once the hasidic movements grew, these gatherings turned into a show of force of the hasidic movement, which aims – among other things – to strengthen its pride and serve as clear proof of the victory of its way,” Shaul said.

Shaul’s thesis has been published in book form as in Hebrew as “Beauty for Ashes."

Comments

[Max Ponzi (the one from Cedarhurst)]

Almost? My uncle told me that I committed suicide when I was 25. Only the good die young. My mother in law was not good and still isn't.

Chag Sameach, mon imbecile.

[jancsibacsi]

Self aggrandizemnet is the trademark of the satmerer hassidim, there is a lot of truth in what dr.Michael shaul wrote in his book

[(The other) Eli]

And haredim will use this as part of their "Hashem was punishing reformation and preserving true Toyreh Judaism" in 5....4....3....2....

[Rocky]

If you have seen pictures of shtetl life taken before WWI and look at pictures taken in the inter-war period, you immediately see a difference in how people dressed. The beards had for the most part disappeared after the war, especially among young men. Jews tended to be more assimilated. Secular education was the norm. Pictures taken in the 1920's of Moty Stromer's family in Kamionka-Strumilowa show young people in western dress with clean shaven faces. A sign over the doorway of the Stromer family store in 1934 reads PIWA BROWARU HR. BADENIEGO W BUSKU. ("Beer and wine for sale here" maybe?) A picture of my grandfather taken in the same village in the late 1890's shows a handspome young man (25?) in a full beard. He could have fit in as an extra in "Yentl". Barbra Streisand's paternal grandfather came from the same part of the world (Galicia).

See "The Diary of Moty Sromer" part of Yad Vashem's "Holocaust series".

[Barry 1]

As they say, "figures lie and liars figure."

That's what people with agendas often do.

[Jeff]

I can't WAIT to hear how the trolls will spin this one after they've woken up from their post-Shabbos stupors.

"Shmarya, you idiot! Of course a liberal leftie is going to write a book making such a claim! She probably also sleeps with goyim! You know nothing about Toyreh-true Yiddishkeit! You need to get out of your mother's basement!

"All of you bitter, angry, self-hating losers need to get lives! You're just jealous of us, because we've survived while your synagogues are empty! We've existed unchanged since Moishe Rabbenu came down from Har Sinai, and we will exist unchanged until moshiach arrives from heaven in his shtreimel and kapote!"

Then there will what appears to be the now-obligatory, "Chag samyeach" or "Be sealed for a good year", which they seem to think somehow renders all of their hatred and vitriol muttar to the "heavenly court".

Did I leave anything out?

[kjdude]

How sad is Jeff that he needs to leave idiotic comments "ahead" of the troll comments just so he can make himself feel better. I would write "lol" but I know that pisses you off....

[kjdude]

There is actually very little to "spin". The numbers of Yeshiva bochurim were dwindling due to large scale upheavals caused by WW2. Of course, yeshivos is general were still a newish concept which had not penetrated fully in Poland and Russia, therefore using those numbers are spurious.

The thesis as presented here is untenable. The holocaust and its tremendous trauma would have pushed more people away for religion and it certainly did so. The fact that the yeshivos grew so powerfully was due to the work of the Hazon ish and Rabbi kotler is Lakewood and could have theoretically happened in Lithuania as well. The unity of the chareidin in centralized areas is the driving factor, not the holocaust.

The celebrations on the Rebbis day of redemption in no way minimizes the pain felt by the death os the millions who died but they do celebrate the continuation of Jewish life after the war. Not sure what the problem is but Scotty knows...

[Jeff]

"I would write "lol" but I know that pisses you off...."

It doesn't piss me off at all. I was merely pointing out that like your evangelical counterparts, you people seem to think that including it somehow validates your statements.

It's impossible to take anything you say seriously. You're just a sad product of your subculture. If you really believed the things you say here, you wouldn't be bothering; you'd simply walk away - but you keep coming back, like a moth drawn to a flame.

[Sarah the Sotah]

It's impossible to take anything you say seriously. You're just a sad product of your subculture. If you really believed the things you say here, you wouldn't be bothering; you'd simply walk away - but you keep coming back, like a moth drawn to a flame.
Posted by: Jeff | October 12, 2014 at 07:18 AM

Sounds like you're talking to yourself again, Jeff.

[Jeff]

"Sounds like you're talking to yourself again, Jeff."

That makes no sense. Once again, you people really don't get it. Someone who supports the site owner cannot, by definition, be a troll. I come here because I agree with Shmarya, and because I am welcome here. You people don't and aren't - and once again, there is an example of something else you appear to be incapable of getting. This man, whom you trip over one another in your eagerness to condemn, is quite literally the only liberal Jew in the world who'd tolerate your presence.

I keep hearing about the superior reasoning skills supposedly resulting from a frum education. So far, I've seen no evidence of it.

[kjdude]

Jeff how does it feel to be the adult in the room?

[kjdude]

Jeff you should know that I am glad you decided to come back. It was getting boring with illiterates like jancsi. Now at least we have literate fools like yourself telling us we are going extinct....

[Jeff]

You are going extinct. Your leaders recognize it, and will acknowledge it in unguarded moments among themselves. It's now beginning to filter down to the laypeople as well, which is how I come to hear of it.

You're young, if you're telling us the truth. Get out now, while you have time to create an alternate life for yourself.

[Ron]

It's just crap. First of all Mizrachim are simply ignored. Then the basic fact that entire Hasidic dynasties were wiped out by the Holocaust is not mentioned. Third, the researcher "Michal Shaul" actually did a work on how the Holocaust was absorbed in the Haredi culture. This fuss about demographics is just a way to have a headline in ynet, it's not her doctorate thesis.

If you look at the comments in ynet, many readers are disproving the author. Some descendants of Haredim killed in the Holocaust are actually angry with her.

[kjdude]

Jeff which leaders have you spoken with in "unguarded" moments? Iam getting nervous that we have leaders who speak to you...

BTW if you want to see a community going extinct come to kj. Between the hundreds of new homes going up everywhere you can see extinction creeping.... Sad little old man, toddle off as Scott says...

[jancsibacsi]

kjdude--The yeshivas grew so fast because of the massive fraud that they are perpetrating almost 50 years ago when i went yeshiva during the vietnam war the yeshivas promised me that they will after high school take us back if we signs a student grant paper they took the money and kiked us out,the only reaon the hassidism survived like it does today is for one reason massive fraud on a biblical proportion.

[kjdude]

Explain Jancsi. They kicked you out, therefore they grew? Are you senile, old Hungarian Naar?

[Jeff]

"Jeff which leaders have you spoken with in 'unguarded' moments? Iam getting nervous that we have leaders who speak to you..."

That isn't what I said. You've consistently shown your reading skills to be sub-par. Pitiful.

WHY ARE YOU HERE?

[Jeff]

"If you look at the comments in ynet, many readers are disproving the author."

I looked at the comments on Ynet. All I saw was the predictable reactionary crap. No one is "disproving" her.

[jancsibacsi]

kjdude--Moron that you are, its not only me its hundreds of kids who graduated how stupid can you get?.

[Bas Melech]

Charedi life diminished prior to WWII. Rabbis have assertertd that the lack of Torah and Torah study were a major causes of the holocaust. My relatives arrived in the US prior to WW2. They came from religious homes and valued secular education. The rabbis arrived beardless.

The charedim today have created a mythical pre War way of life. Few people remain capable of remembering the truth.

[kjdude]

Jeff I figured out why I'm here. Its to antaganize the old bitter men like you and Jancsi who find their spiritual home on this site. You see, when you read this site only and comment you bitterness on it you forget of all the people who dontvgive a rats ass about your opinion and laugh at you idiocy and obstinacy. I'm here to remind you. Your opinion is worth as much as the stain on your shorts....

[Jeff]

Pitiful. You're just a sad, frightened little boy.

[Chaim Z]

When Shmarya heard this he got very upset about the holocaust.

[jancsibacsi]

kjdude---You are more bitter then all of us put toghether,you are just to stupid to see it,di shoite vegoylem.

[kjdude]

Jeff I would say you have horseshit for brains but I don't want to insult the horses.

[Avi Rosenthal]

Shmarya got it wrong and Bas Melech almost got it right. Maybe Ynet got it wrong too. You can see an article based on Michal Shaul's PhD thesis at http://in.bgu.ac.il/bgi/iyunim/20/f3.pdf. The Hareidim in Eastern Europe outside the USSR were recovering, between the two World Wars, from their near collapse prior to and during WWI. See in particular the bottom of page 363 and the top of page 364 of that article. The European recovery was cut off by the Holocaust but resumed in Israel after WWII as a continuation of the growth of Haredi institutions that had been established in Mandatory Palestine before WWII. One of Shaul's central points is that one of the foundations of that recovery was the creation of the myth, for the purpose of coping with the trauma of the Holocaust, that the Haredim in Israel were reconstructing what Jewish life had been like in Europe before the war.

[Bas Melech]

Thanks, Avi, for the added information.

During the past 30(?) years, frumma have attempted to copy the Eretz Yisrorel life. In EY, young men remain in kollel to avoid the draft. Now it has become acceptable in the US to remain in kollel to avoid work. In Europe yeshiva learning was a privilege after bar mitzvah. Poverty forced all members of the family to work. Wealthy sons entered family businesses. Accepting charity was an embarrassment for individuals capable of working.

Today the myth has replaced the truth.

[Jeff]

They've become a caricature of themselves. This is something the trolls here are incapable of understanding.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

kjdude---> Jeff how does it feel to be the adult in the room?

kjdude ----> It was getting boring with illiterates like jancsi.

Kjdude, I have news for you. Jeff is not the only adult in this room, and I consider Jancsi to be quite literate.

As a matter of fact, I think Jansci is far more educated that the masses of haredim who graduate "high" school in Monsey, BP, Lakewood, Baltimore (and other places where Haredim congregate in large numbers) and who have only the barest grasp of English and Math, and know virtually nothing about science, history (World and American) and are pitifully unprepared for a 21st century economy.

I think what Jeff probably meant to say that is your "community" is not going extinct- given the massive birthrate and (as you pointed out) the increasing amounts of housing being built to house the growing numbers of haredim- but that the lifestyle that this community practice is eventually going to go extinct.

Simply put, as the cost of living continues to rise, and as the cost of raising a child continues to rise, the practices of your community (no usable education for the men beyond high school, huge families with only one person working outside the home) are going to become unsustainable.

There's only so much money that Section
8, Food stamps, and Medicaid pays out.

Eventually, more and more secular Jews are going to lose their idealized views of what the Haredim in America are like (Most secular Jews, like I used to, view your community through the prism of "Fiddler on the Roof"- I'm being entirely serious when I say that) and they are going to slow down/diminish the amount of charity they are giving you people.

Of course, it does not help that people in your community (on a per capita basis) go to jail at a higher rate than secular Jews, based upon financial chicanery. For every Bernie Madoff, there are (or at least seem to be) five or six Sholom Rubashkins.

That's another reason why your "Rabbonim" are scared to death of the Internet. The Internet does not necessarily provide knowledge; it provides information, and your "Rabbonim" are (rightfully) afraid that your youth will see on the Internet that it's possible to live a Jewish life (see: Modern Orthodox, Conservative, etc) yet not be struggling in poverty and backwardness their entire lives.

Anyway...when something becomes unsustainable, it tends to stop, or at least slow down. And when people get access to information that had previously been unavailable...it sometimes changes their mind.

I'm giving your lifestyle (at least in the US) another twenty years or so...maybe thirty.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@Jeff ----> I keep hearing about the superior reasoning skills supposedly resulting from a frum education. So far, I've seen no evidence of it.

LOL...Jeff, you are forgetting that you have previously stated on here (several times) that that community is has almost no (or no) connection to objective reality.

Ergo, when "superior reasoning skills" are applied to facts (and a worldview) that are/is imaginary, then you can't expect to see results that are going to approximate reality.

It's like the guy who puts garlic soup in his car instead of gas; of course the car isn't going to go anywhere. (Crude analogy, but you see my point)

[jancsibacsi]

Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law----For one kjdude is not from kj, he thinks he duped us all with his name,no kj hassid can write as well as he does, he is here for thing to drey everyones kop,twist reality to his liking since he cannot bear the thought of his world being a world of sheker, lies

[Bas Melech]

Many years ago a friend raised by survivors in chasidic Brooklyn told me that more people leave the frum world than enter as BTs. Today young people reject their parents' and schools' chumrahs and choose a more "modern" lifestyle and shul. Young married women partially cover their hair or refrain from it. They choose MO schools for their children.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@Bas Melech ----> The charedim today have created a mythical pre War way of life. Few people remain capable of remembering the truth.

@Bas Melech ---> Today the myth has replaced the truth.

Bas, I think you are directly on point. Frankly, I think my own family's experience/viewpoint bears that out. While they have both passed on, I'm pretty sure both my Father and Mother had this view of the Haredim in America as living the life portrayed by "Fiddler on the Roof."

And both my parents were quite intelligent- my Mother taught French Literature, and while my Father did not have education beyond High School, very little got past him; and he read a great deal to educate himself.

And to be quite honest, that's the view that I myself had of the haredi lifestyle. And not to brage, but I've got a Bachelor's Degree, a Law Degree, and did 90% of a Master's Degree (would have gotten the Master's, but I blew off the thesis), so I'm not exactly unaware of the world around me.

Quite frankly, it's not hard to be captured by, and subsequently believe in a myth; depending of course, on how that myth is "handed down". (or to be crude about it, "marketed">)

And let's face it- when a myth points to a simpler, and what seems to be spiritually richer existence- it's hard not to have some admiration for that myth, and a certain appreciation of, and admiration for, the people who are (currently) living in that myth.

I think it's one of the main reasons this community is so successful at "Fundraising". Modern, secular, Jews who don't know the reality of (current) haredim life in the United States, have bought into this myth, and are happy to give money to assist he people living in the myth.

From a marketing standpoint, you can't beat this with a stick.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@Jansci ---> -For one kjdude is not from kj, he thinks he duped us all with his name,no kj hassid can write as well as he does.

Jansci, great to see you posting. I'll take your word for it- you live amongst those people. There are very few Haredim in Colorado (my current state) and I've never seen any in Colorado Springs. (my current city).

And now that you mention it....KJDude does show pretty good enunciation and sentence structure. I'm guessing that he is either not a Haredi, or he is a BT who got his education before adopting that lifestyle. Meaning, he went to schools where he learned correct English.

[jancsibacsi]

Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law---Thank you for your kind words,you are absolutly right the hassidiom created a mythical pre war life ,my grandfather was a satmerer hassid pre war my uncle who just passed away went to heder in satmer pre war he told stories about them fighting all the time amongst themselfs just like you see it today he my uncle took of his payes of and became semi frum sort of he hated them he told me the rebbes were sadistic beating children for no good reason i myself lived in the shtettel my parents lived in until the age of 11 went heder the rest i wrote here many times,we were beaten just as pre war tragecally the survivors of aushwitz were dameged mentally i wrote this before one yom kippur our town shohet was the cantor all of a sudden he turned around came towards me picked me up this all happened next to my father and threw me down for absolutly no reason i was taken outside since i could not stand up my i was in so much pain my father did not want to attck the shohet since it was yom kuppur and he was some 25 years older then my father somehow he survived the holocaust so this is the lifes that was pre war similar to when i was growing up all over europe especially were hassidim were in charge of the school.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@Jancsi ---> I think that's why your postings are so valuable. You saw life as it actually was back then.

[kjdude]

Wow l leave for a few hours and fond some backwoods lawyer piled shit with abandon! Kudos for putting out so many words while saying so little of substance (to paraphrase Sir Churchill).

I'm on my cell here so I'm not going to go through each point with you, but I am willing to bet any amount of money that in 30 years Satmar, bobov, chabad, Lakewood etc. will have at least double the current adherents with more and more dedication and cohesion growing by the year. Its quite amusing to watch the MO community moving to the right while the centrists and left fade away even more.II'm sure you think that your parents 25 dollar donations kept us going all these years... lol

The point is this: The explosion in our community will continue apace. The government will support our community to gain votes. The niyy will vontinu

[jancsibacsi]

kjdude--The explosion in chillel hashem that you guys are commiting will also continue to explode,you are mentally disturbed go get help ,di rutzer vus di bist.

[SkepticalYid]

Satmar is a parasite that owes its extraordinary growth to the generosity of the American public. Take away Welfare, Section 8, Medicaid and SNAP and they'd crumble overnight.

[kjdude]

That may be true skeptic buy since the black community also needs these benefits we will continue to have these forever buddy, forever!

[jancsibacsi]

kjdude--Your still here didnt i tell to go get help you are mentally deranged dude farrikt, you know what that means sick in the head.

[Jeff]

Guys, why are you even bothering? He's the product of generations of inbreeding.

[kjdude]

Good one Jeff, as usual...

Jancsi, the more you comment your Hungarian roots shine through. I'm starting to understand the hick lawyer with his appreciation for your incisive wit and quick intelligence.... You dimwitted fool....

[Jeff]

Kjdude, you are the trailer park drek of the Jewish people. You always have been and you always will be, for the few brief years you have left as a subculture.

You infest every area you move into, like vermin, and do nothing but depress property values and spread discord. You are the reason antisemitism exists.

Your very existence is an offense against God and humanity. I take pleasure in the knowledge that you'll never amount to anything more than an ignorant, useless, semi-literate Internet troll.

Do the human genome a favor. Throw yourself in front of a moving train, you useless piece of filth.

[johnjill]

Jeff, you are losing it. You are cursing now like a child. Grow up you old man...

[jancsipista]

kjdude---Idiot you are amongst hungarians there in your orei miklot that is called kj.

[Bas Melech]

Robert J. Barron--

My family and I had no clue as how American charedim lived. My family came to the US in the early 1900s and left ghetto Judaism in Europe. They practiced American style traditional Judaism, kept kosher, Shabbos, and yom Tov. The land of opportunity allowed some of them to become doctors, dentists, and successful businessmen. They valued their Jewishness. The refugees who immigrated must have brought a new form of yiddishkeit.

I want to return to my American minhagim. I am not European. Why should I adopt European ghetto behavior? In fact, the extreme separation of men and women was not practiced by my family in Europe. It was not even practiced in Eretz Yisrorel to the degree it is now.

Many of my relatives escaped the ultra orthodox life when they immigrated to the US. Yes, it was diminishing before WW2. The rebbes preyed on lost souls/soles who survived, like cult leaders of all kinds do.

[MarkfromShortHills]

kjdude:
You and your filthy worthless ilk have no right to call yourselves Jewish.

Jews are educated. They are leaders in all fields of intellectual endeavor. They win Nobel Prizes at many times their representation in the general population.

Haredi scum are generally ignorant. Many do not speak English at other than a rudimentary level. They generally do not attend college and in spite of living in America they know no American history. In Israel, they entirely reject learning English, science, math, and the history of Israel.

Jews are scientifically literate. They have historically been leaders in medicine, physics, math, chemistry, and biology.

Haredi are horribly and dangerously scientifically ignorant. Leading haredi rabbis reject vaccination. Whole herds of worthless haredi shitheads insist on sucking the penises of defenseless baby boys, causing illness that can lead to brain damage and death.

Jews are assets to the places where they live. They participate in community activities of all sorts, they give charity to all worthy causes, and they respect secular law.

Worthless haredi garbage isolate themselves to the maximum extent they can get away with. They actively discourage interaction with non-haredi individuals (unless they are selling something to them or stealing from them), they give charity only to their own, and they do not regard secular law as anything other than a nasty impediment that they have no qualms about circumventing.

Jews are just. They apply the same standards of conduct to themselves and to other people.

Haredi shit consider themselves superior to secular law. They treat sexual abuse of children as the rightful perogative of rabbis and cantors. They accept donations of organs from others, but refuse to donate organs to others.

Haredi Jews are not generally Jewish.

[johnjill]

Short Brain- I just don't have the patience to write a response so just suck it.

[johnjill]

But one quick point that you already know. From time immemorial Jews have never been considered just and were in fact known as thieves, Usurers, and unpleasant. Read your history, starting from the new testament through mein kampf

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@MarkfromShortHills---> Jews are educated. They are leaders in all fields of intellectual endeavor. They win Nobel Prizes at many times their representation in the general population.

@MarkfromShorthills---->Jews are scientifically literate. They have historically been leaders in medicine, physics, math, chemistry, and biology.

VERY, VERY well said....but you left out a couple of points, so allow me:

1. Not only are we educated and leaders in fields of intellectual endeavor...when you look at our percentage of the (total American) population, we are extremely over-represented in those fields.

2. The best example that I can offer ---> The United States Supreme Court. Nine members. Three of them Jewish. We comprise ONE-THIRD of the Supreme Court.

That's something this Jewish Lawyer is very proud of.

[johnjill]

Bas Melech - You are certainly free to practice your own version of Judaism. So are we. If you don't like our version, you are welcome to leave. And take Barron along with you.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@Bas Melech ----> My family and I had no clue as how American charedim lived. My family came to the US in the early 1900s and left ghetto Judaism in Europe. They practiced American style traditional Judaism, kept kosher, Shabbos, and yom Tov. The land of opportunity allowed some of them to become doctors, dentists, and successful businessmen.

Bas, your family's story is virtually and completely identical to my family's story...and I suspect, to the story of millions and millions of other families that came here in (what I call) the "Great Wave" of Emigration, from around/about 1880, to..I'd say around/about 1920 or so. (That was the "Wave" that brought huge numbers or Russians, Poles, Germans, Italians, etc.....and helped make this country what it is today.)

And now we have the Haredim.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@johnjill----> Short Brain- I just don't have the patience to write a response so just suck it.

Actually, your response illustrates the points that Mark, Jansci, Jeff and I make, vis-vis your community's lack of (secular) education and inability to communicate beyond a grade-school level.

Rather than answer and/or debate Mark on the merits of his statements, you respond "...so just suck it."

But then again....what else should we expect of you? You probably didn't go past high school.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@johnjill----> From time immemorial Jews have never been considered just and were in fact known as thieves, Usurers, and unpleasant. Read your history, starting from the new testament through mein kampf.

You are either kidding, or your ignorance is even more shocking than I suspected. I would hardly expect "Mein Kampf" to be a disinterested exposition of Jewish history.

[dh]

I never considered the Torah an "old testament".

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@kjdude-----> I'm starting to understand the hick lawyer with his appreciation for your incisive wit and quick intelligence..

@kjdude ----> Wow l leave for a few hours and fond some backwoods lawyer piled shit with abandon....

As if it's any of your business, this "backwoods, hick lawyer" has more (secular) education than, I'd say, 99% of your fellow haredim, so....then again, you probably consider it "goy/worthless" education....

....and I notice how you didn't respond to any of the points that I made. Just like johnjill- nothing to contribute of any real substance...so you just resort to name-calling.

[kjdude]

Barron Mein Kampf was the way Jews were viewed by MOST Germans in the 1930's.

[kjdude]

Barron let me explain what JohnJill meant. As a society, hasidim are not interested in what the outside world thinks of us. We are more than happy to live in anonimity, elect our preferred candidates, live in our own neighborhoods, and study our own curriculum. When we require the use of a professional, we are more than happy to hire someone from outside our community to represent us and serve us. So when you say that Jews are known for their prowess in the sciences, I say hallelujah but we want our children to know halacha instead. In short what we say is, take your values and follow them closely if you wish but don't impose them on us. We don't want them, and don't mind them. In short "suck it"!

[S M L]

Eventually enough normal folks in NY state will see what's going on among you Haredim and Hasidim, breeding like rabbits and not working and the boom will fall. Your lifestyle becomes less sustainable the more you multiply and as your population, originally small enough to fly below the radar, become highly visible and your impact on budgets and all the rest becomes a major drain. Eventually some crusader will raise high holy hell about you, possibly in a truly antisemitic fashion, and he will find a following and things will get ugly - which is precisely what you and yours deserve. Remember the backlash against the "welfare queens" during the the 80s and 90s? History has a way of repeating itself.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@kjdude ---> So when you say that Jews are known for their prowess in the sciences, I say hallelujah but we want our children to know halacha instead.

@kjdude ----> take your values and follow them closely if you wish but don't impose them on us. We don't want them, and don't mind them. In short "suck it"!

Frankly, I find your statements to be some of the most frightening and (literally) chilling statements I have ever read on the Internet.

And I'm beginning to get a much better understand of the anger displayed by Jeff and Jansci.

You are actually proud of your isolation and ignorance?

You are actually proud of your communities' rejection of any (real) education beyond High School?

You are actually proud of rejecting (in this instance) science in favor of rules that were written centuries ago, in and for a world that no longer exists?

I think you are proud of everything I have just stated.

Good Lord. Is this what our ancestors left the ghettos of Europe for? So that some of descendants could one day, re-create the poverty and isolation that they fled?

Mark and Jeff are entirely correct. You have no right to call yourself Jewish.

Your cult has taken Jewish beliefs, and bootstraped onto those beliefs, behaviors that no thinking Jewish person would recognize, much less have anything to do with...if you'll pardon my tortured grammar.

Good Lord. I have never been as horrified by what I have seen on the Internet as what you have just written.

[dh]

And that, I think, is why Shmarya lets them continue to post here. So that they can expose themselves in their own words of their own free will.

[kjdude]

Barron- Yes we are most definitely proud of all those things you mentioned.

And BTW our ancestors were dragged out of the ghetto by the Nazis. We didn't leave voluntarily because we wanted to preserve our religion. We are very grateful to be here in America the free but we want to continue living in the ghetto to a certain extent. That's our prerogative. And if you could kindly point me to where Judaism rejects that thinking I would be much obliged....

Its amazing to Mr how little you know about the beliefs of the people you comment about, that my comment shocked you...

[kjdude]

Dh nothing is being exposed here. Any chasid will tell you the same.

[n ' Aron d']

Mark from short hills
So tell us in which field did u win the Nobel prize.
Pity that they don't have a nobel prize for self hating jews. You wouldn't win shmarya would but you might come in the top 10 contenders

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@kjdude ---> And if you could kindly point me to where Judaism rejects that thinking I would be much obliged....

Judaism rejects that thinking by everything that MarkfromShorthills pointed out. Judaism rejects that thinking.... by actions. The actions of myself and every other Jewish individual who does what Mark pointed out.

And by the (previous) actions of millions of people who came here from the old country, and wanted a better life for their children than what they had experienced. Here's a hint ---> they didn't create that better world for their children by isolation in a ghetto. They engaged with America, and sent their children and/or grandchildren to colleges and universities, whereupon we then rose to the heights that Mark mentioned.

And now we have the Haredim. This is what some of their descendants of those immigrants have now (apparently) come to. Ignorance, rejection of education, and isolation from the larger society. And all of that deliberate.

I was shocked, not simply by your comment- but by your apparent embrace and celebration of ignorance, poverty, and disconnection from the outside world.

I can understand someone growing up and following a way of life that their parents are living...but so many of you people (the BT's, at least) choose ignorance. Choose poverty. Choose disconnection from the outside world.

Horrifying.

And also near-incomprehensible to those of us raised to respect education, strive for success, and be part of the world in which we live.

[Bas Melech]

Kjdude--

I don't think anybody wants you not to learn Torah and halacha. We criticize learning it exclusively. An understanding of modern technology is necessary for halacha, such as using electric appliances on Shabbos and kashrus of factory produced food.

You can't totally isolate yourselves from the secular world. Driver's licenses require rules of the road. You use public hospitals. Therefore, you need to know how to comply with civil laws and how to behave and communicate with people outside your self imposed ghetto.

[kjdude]

Bas and Barron - of course whatever learning we need we learn but we do not want more than that. If we need a drivers license we attend the required courses. If we want to work as accountants or lawyers or physicists we attend schools for those studies. But you will not see us studying philosophy, theoretical sciences etc. Our preferred schools are trade schools and the like. All study is for practical reasons only. We don't look to win Nobel prizes or to construct theorems etc. We would rather spend out time studying Torah and working. If the only way to get an education is by jeopardizing our religion then we are not interested. Simple as that and no secret at that.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@kjdude ---> Our preferred schools are trade schools and the like. All study is for practical reasons only.

umm....even given my (limited) knowledge of my own faith, I think that I've heard something to the effect of the Jews being "The People of the Book".

@Kjdude ----> If we want to work as accountants or lawyers or physicists we attend schools for those studies.

Yes, but that requires study at a college or university....where you people will come into contact with (gasp) goyim and (gasp) non-haredim Jews.....so your people will have none of it.

It's part of that (general) refusal to engage with the outside world that you are so proud of.

And I have news for you ----> studying accounting or physics (or basically, anything in college) requires graduating from a High School and knowing how to speak and write proper English.

It requires knowing mathematics. (for accounting) For physics, it requires knowing and understanding science per se, and understanding science means you don't accept that the world was created 5,700-something years ago.

Studying law requires not just graduating High School, but also graduating from a four-year college (see, "Mixing with Goyim", above) and having a solid command and use of the English Language, and being able to express yourself well in both written and spoken English.

And that disqualifies many of your people.

But that's okay...you can hire professionals to serve your needs.

Horrifying.

[dh]

"Dh nothing is being exposed here. Any chasid will tell you the same" kjdude | October 12, 2014 at 10:11 PM

I rest my case.

[johnjill]

Barron- Actually you don't have to graduate high school, you can get a GED. Today you can do college in a segregated environment in Touro, etc. You can also do online courses.

Accepting physics does not require accepting evolution, as Im sure you know. All in all I have many friends who are professionals such as Teachers, accountants and even some lawyers. They all got their degrees without attending a four-year college.

Again, Im not asking you to agree or disagree. Im just letting know the facts. Your opinion is worthless to us, as is dh's (let him know, he doesn't read all that well...)

[Another Holocene Human]

"Eventually, more and more secular Jews are going to lose their idealized views of what the Haredim in America are like (Most secular Jews, like I used to, view your community through the prism of "Fiddler on the Roof"- I'm being entirely serious when I say that) and they are going to slow down/diminish the amount of charity they are giving you people."

Yes. And I think I missed the part of "Fiddler" where Tevye's wife is (barely) supporting the family doing menial labor in a gentile or liberal, non-Torah-observant Jewish family's home while Tevye learns all day ...

Thanks to the internet I know Yiddish isn't just the language of Isaac Bashevis Singer, it's also the proud mamaloshen of illiterate and ill-tempered frummie trolls who hate truth, compassion, and most of all justice. I think we all lose.

[Another Holocene Human]

Pre-war Yiddish movie, Grune Felder

"A yid muss lernen."

The whole family was out breaking their backs in the fields.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Fields_(film)
(omg did not realize it was filmed in New Jersey--lol!)

[Another Holocene Human]

"Actually you don't have to graduate high school, you can get a GED."

Sure, if you don't care about getting a job afterwards. Good luck getting employment with a GED and no work history. They'll think you're a quitter or an addict or a criminal or something else is 'wrong' with you that you couldn't show your butt up to school for four years.

"Today you can do college in a segregated environment in Touro, etc. You can also do online courses."

Doesn't mean you received the same learning experience and trust me, discerning employers will weed you out. Of course, if you already have a job lined up "in the family" who cares, right? GWBush hired a bunch of half-educated, highly-indoctrinated Christian Soldiers from scam-schools like Patrick Henry College and Liberty University into his DOJ. However, nobody else wants anything to do with them. What if the wingnut welfare dries up?

"Accepting physics does not require accepting evolution,"

Hahahahaha physics PhD's have the highest percentage of atheists after psychology PhD's who know how like minds work'n'stuff.

This is relevant because there are basically no evolution-deniers out there who aren't religious believers because it's an easily-observable, physical FACT. It just causes yucky feelings of doubt in the highly indoctrinated who are deeply invested in some various BOOK OF ALL NAWLIDGE or other.

" as Im sure you know. All in all I have many friends who are professionals such as Teachers, accountants and even some lawyers. They all got their degrees without attending a four-year college."

hahahahahaha

"Again, Im not asking you to agree or disagree. Im just letting know the facts."

Facts like the accountants and lawyers and teachers without college degrees? Maybe you are thinking of paralegals, who do like really technical, important lawyer-y thingies, Cousin Bob who puts his shingle out every tax season charging $30 to file 1040EZ's for particularly dumb neighbors, and substitute teachers who have certificate requirements but those requirements aren't as strenuous as for actual FT teachers?

"Your opinion is worthless to us, as is dh's (let him know, he doesn't read all that well...)"

Consider the source....

[Another Holocene Human]

johnjill's Teachers, Accountants, and Lawyers

Private Religious School Teachers don't need no stinking degrees

Bookmakers and loansharks don't need to pass the CPA exam

Jailhouse lawyers - if MO or Conservative/Reform/Non-Jewish, but true Torah learning is like 5 secular law degrees, they will be astounded with the wisdom of the bochurim!

[Another Holocene Human]

@Robert Barron you are so right on all of your points.

I think Jeff is right that the lifestyle is unsustainable and you are right that people are going to start wondering where their money is going -- to organizations that systemically cover up the rape, physical, and spiritual abuse of children and young people?!

[Another Holocene Human]

Where are the true Torah Jews studying physics? Don't they have Rabbis to provide the answers to all of life's burning existential questions?

Lots of Jews in Physics, not a lot of haredis.

[Jeff]

You see their pride in their ignorance, their inability even to understand the statements being made, the irrelevance of their responses. I mean, Mein Kampf? Seriously?

This is the reason I keep saying gradual change is impossible. I respect organizations like Footsteps and Yaffed that are trying to effect change gradually, but I feel very strongly that for any real change to take place, it must be imposed upon them from without.

If that involves threatening to take away their children unless they educate them, I have no problem with it. Unfortunately, it most likely won't be done. It will be as I say - within a generation, their world will collapse into a fragmented, chaotic mess, and they will unfortunately be taking most of "Modern Orthodoxy" (which I place in quotes because there's really no longer any such thing) with them.

[Jeff]

"Mark and Jeff are entirely correct. You have no right to call yourself Jewish."

I say it again. We now have two distinct religions and religious subcultures. It is beyond time for us to go our separate ways. I think I am immovable on this - or you'd have to work very hard to get me to change my mind, in any case.

I have nothing but contempt for those pitiful apologists and Haredi wannabes (most of them Modern Orthodox) who insist, out of a misguided nostalgic impulse, upon some form of unity. It's childish, and I have no respect for them. In fact, my relationship with the Modern Orthodox rabbi I've often mentioned here is pretty much over, primarily for this reason.

We are where Judaism and Christianity were during the first generation after Jesus. We have a shared history and a few vestigial beliefs in common, and that's about it. It's time for us to stop viewing these parasites as a source of authenticity.

And frankly, in my view, that will entail stopping support for Israel unless and until it agrees to stop capitulating to them.

[kjdude]

Jeff and human for the hundredth time, good bye and good riddance!!

[Jeff]

"Jeff and human for the hundredth time, good bye and good riddance!!"

Fine - then YOU go away. This is a blog maintained by a liberal Jew. You want to spew your venom and bile? Go hang out on Crosscurrents, or on a blog maintained by someone defying his rebbe by being on the forbidden Internet.

The really sick, sad, pathetic thing is that you seem to think you're the ones cutting US loose. It's the other way around, idiot. You bring NOTHING to the table. You have nothing of value to offer. All you are, collectively, is an embarrassment and an expense.

Now, if we could get the U.S. and Israeli governments to tell you that the free ride is over, that would be a happy day.

[Jeff]

And another thing; this:

"So when you say that Jews are known for their prowess in the sciences, I say hallelujah but we want our children to know halacha instead. In short what we say is, take your values and follow them closely if you wish but don't impose them on us. We don't want them, and don't mind them. In short "suck it"!"

Fine - then get the fuck out of here. Crawl back into your shtetl hole and mind your own goddamn business. You don't see us trolling frum blogs. You want to denigrate us? Start your own blog and do it there.

You keep saying you don't care about what we think, about you or anything else. Then WHY ARE YOU HERE?

[kjdude]

No Jeff I will be here to antaganize you and crow about our every victory whether at the polls, in court, etc. Every time we suffered I will come here to watch your poor little mind go all haywire as you contemplate another success for your wretched Hasidim with their poor English and lack of education....

You are a poor, unsuccessful, and pathetic old man whose only lease on life right now is to express you hatred of hasidim. Well guess what, I'll let you know when we win our next battle at the polls, in court, or otherwise because Jeffie, we play to win and we mostly win! You can continue living your sad life here and go back to your menial and sad existence. Its always there waiting outside of your computer screen... sad pathetic old man....

[jancsibacsi]

jeff-This kjdude is on a payroll from the satmerers no satmerer or other hassid is as literate as he is, so he is a fraud is here just to stir the crap get others angry,he is not worth answering,kjdude ver geharget.

[Jeff]

And you're just an angry, bitter young man who realizes he's facing a dead-end life of poverty, ignorance and repression. You haven't been able to respond successfully to anything that has been said here, by me or by anyone else. All you can do is crow about your purported "victories", most of which are imaginary.

The clock is running out for you and your ilk. You are and always have been the trailer park garbage of the Jewish people, and soon your obscene, perverted world will be gone.

Tick, tock, little man. Tick tock.

[kjdude]

Jancsi, right back at you.

Jeff, I'll leave you with the final word and the ticking sound in you ears.

[Aaron]

Well, I'm reading the comments here and here is what I'm observing:
The liberal Jews here have a deep-seated hatred for the Haredi. I have to tell you, the only time I've seen comments like this before about Jews was when I was looking at Neo-nazi websites.

I think Jeff has a point, the split between the Haredi and the secular Jews is indeed wide. I disagree though, that Haredi culture will disappear though. That is, unless the modern world persecutes it to extinction.

[Jeff]

"That is, unless the modern world persecutes it to extinction."

It is collapsing before your eyes. All they have are vast numbers for whom they can no longer provide. They have a generation left, at most.