What It Really Means To be Poor

After your housing costs and cost of medical insurance, can you and your wife live on less than $700 total for food, transportation, clothing, non-covered medical, dental and eyecare expenses and OTC medicine like Tylenol, especially in New York City and especially if you keep kosher?

 

Some haredi rabbis have told members of their synagogues not to give tzedaka (charity) to beggars because they already get food stamps and other government aid.

I've previously pointed out this position has no actual support in halakha, and these rabbis are either ignorant of the halakha or decitful.

Some of these rabbis – for example, Rabbi Landau from 'Landau's Shul' in Flatbush – also ban non-haredi beggars from begging inside their synagogues, even when the beggar is a known Orthodox Jew.

Landau's also won't let beggars who beg outside the shul to use the bathroom or get water from the tap. Meanwhile, hasidic beggars are allowed to beg inside.

The Sefardi minyan factory synagogue Bnei Yosef on Ocean Parkway and Avenue P keeps the women's restroom locked. So while male and female beggars can be inside the shul building in the hallway, women have to walk blocks to find a rest room to use – a real difficulty for many of the beggars due to age and infirmity. You'd think the shul would open the bathroom for them, but it won't.

Wedding halls like Ateres Chinka ban beggars – even though allowing beggars to beg at weddings and eat from a special food table set up for uninvited guests has been normative Orthodox practice since Talmudic times.

All of these religious institutions and rabbis are breaking normative halakha.

But the average haredi person does not know the halakha and, quite frankly, doesn't like being asked for money by "schnorrers" – especially when they are falsely led to believe those schnorrers get more than enough government support through SNAP (food stamps) and other government payments to live comfortably.

Posted below is a New York State SNAP notice for a disabled family of two adults.

Until the Republican-engineered cuts in SNAP late last year and early this year, the family got $367 per month in SNAP benefits.

Now that same family, with the same income and expenses that have only increased (just as your food and other costs have), gets only $167 – $200 less than it received in December.

After your housing costs and cost of medical insurance, can you and your wife live on less than $700 total for food, transportation, clothing, non-covered medical, dental and eyecare expenses and OTC medicine like Tylenol, especially in New York City and especially if you keep kosher?

What about poor people who are not disabled or who are but have not yet been approved as so by the government? (That process can take 18 months.)

They don't get any disability payments.

Can $83.50 (or even $125) cover an individual's entire food for a month? In New York City? Keeping kosher?

Haredim, especially hasidim, are so used to having various charities (and scams) to rely on to supplement government programs that they often don't realize what it's really like to be poor in America without them.

The only people living well off government welfare and support programs are the people who are scamming them and have other undeclared income.

What do you do when your TV or radio breaks? Your shoes wear out? Your pants tear?

What if you need a new blanket or your doctor has just told you to eat at least three ounces of meat or fish at every meal and eliminate all carbohydrates except for slalds and fresh greens and fruits?

What if you just want to able to buy your granschild an ice cream cone?

Halakha has never viewed tzedak for the poor as a subsistence proposition, and poor people are expected under halakha to be supported with dignity at as close to their pre-poverty level of existence as possible.

People like Rabbi Landau spend more on food for themselves in any given week than many beggars have the money to spend in an entire month.

There are haredim who daven at Landau's who spend more on one dinner at Prime Grill than any of these beggars have to spend on food for an entire month.

God gave Jews two specific missions to complete in this world: 1) Be a light onto the nations by upholding the principles of the Torah and by being kind and decent, and 2) taking care of the poor.

Treating non-haredi beggars the way Rabbi Landau and an increasing number of haredi shuls and institutions do violates both of those two Divine-given missions.

And its long past time haredim realized this and stopped supporting those rabbis and those institutions.

Please click to enlarge:

Related:

All Landau's Shul Posts.

All Poverty Posts.

Comments

[jancsibacsi]

Fascinating piece, in my shul here in bp we only see hassidim schnorr rarely or never do i see a non hassid begging,i must say i just abhor those hassidim who scnor here and i see them go out of our shull and drive away in a nice car i never ever saw a non hassid beggar driving i think the non hassidik beggars are infinitly more honest then the hassidishe ones.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Many chareidim are voluntarily poor because they refuse to get an education that would enable them to earn a living. (Yes, trolls, not ALL chareidim...).

[Yehoshua David]

When the black hat communities cheat and fraud the system, which is a violation of the 8th commandment, they receive curses. Since they base their LIFE on being dependent on sin, this will curse them. It will make them try to CHANGE the spirit of the real halakha to fit their sins. That is another forbidden act. And from there it starts to snow-ball until they lose the difference between 'right on wrong'.

Some people hate on the owner of this website. Do you know why? Because Shamya understands the difference between right and wrong. Those who hate on him obviously do not understand right and wrong.

When you lose this basic understanding of what is right and wrong, it means you are cursed. You're lost and 'off the path'.

When you set up whole communities and townships that are based off of 'wrong', then bigger curses will happen that effects the greater community.

The owner if this website is not attacking a 'group'. He's attacking what is 'bad'. His work is for their OWN good. Sure there are pedo's, but at-least now parents are comfortable enough to report them to the police. This is good not bad. It's for their own good. This means he cares. It's love.

The owner of this website suffers the 'pain' of work every day by working on this website and being constantly insulted and threatened. He's living his commandment of work when Hashem sent Adam out of the garden. Others may get bullied in the workplace or laid off and have that constant worry.

But the black hat community evading Gods command to suffer work and then stealing on-top of all this destroys the soul and is unhealthy.

You can wear the largest hat. You can read Torah all day. But if you don't follow Hashem's basic will, then it's all meaningless. It's possibly to be righteous by evading Gods will, but very, very difficult. The curses come in indirect ways. When they are made 'normal' and 'ok', then we all have something to worry about.

Shamya is being a real Jew. He's being a light onto the nations (in this context other Jewish nations). He shows he loves his neighbor as himself by dedicating his time and life to loving his community.

Remember, 'love' is how much *responsibility* you are willing to take for someone else. Shamya is willing to give his whole life to loving his neighbor.

This is a real Jew. The Jew that was 'more German than the Germans'. 'More American than the Americans'. The light onto nations to show people how it's done.

You don't show love by funding these groups and encouraging them. This creates dependency on people, promotes idolatry, and robs people of their dignity. It's an amputation of the soul. These people are not a rich mans way to heaven so they should think again. Worshiping another Jew is not a way to heaven actually. That is bloodline/ancestor worship and a form of tribal pagan idolatry.

Where is Hashem involved in holding other Jews as sacred just because their Jews? Let them do whatever they want as long as they say their Jews? No. You need to love your neighbor as yourself. Abused adults largest complaint against their bad parents is they were not disciplined enough. They were left alone to make all their bad decisions that hurt them later in life. The parents didn't show love. Meaning, they weren't willing to take *responsibility* for their children. This means they were not loved.

People who can't see Shamyas 'love' is lacking ruach haqodesh (Holy Spirit). You can only get ruach haqodesh by understanding Hashems 'Will/Word' (not so much law per say). You do NOT need to sit and read Torah for this. You only need to follow an examples of those who already understand this (reading books is fairly recent in history so the key is not in the book per say).

Shamya is loving his neighbor like himself. He is doing the greater good. He is an example for all of us to follow. A light to the nations. He's a real Jew like Jews through history.

Don't justify bad deeds. Don't condemn those who love their neighbor. If black hats are associated with this life and their Rebbe's claim it's ok to steal, then it's time to take off the black hat and re-examine yourself. Do you think Hashem cares about hats and coats and colors of socks? No. Hashem wants you to love your neighbor as yourself and be a light onto nations. Shamya lives this every day and needs recognition for this.

[Alms for the Boor]

Playing loose with facts again, old miserable blogger?

There is a process where legit beggars can take paperwork proving they are in need to certain rabbis & Rabbi Landau will respect their intervention on behalf of the beggar. You don't like it? Too bad. No one has to let a horde of beggars overrun private property when many of them are not even legit.

And if you are so concerned, why don't you share some of your own shone ring largesse from the "donation" button at the upper right of this page? After keeping enough money for a few pairs of your pants that split at the seams, you can help a few others with ripped pants too.

[Alms for the Boor]

And you can't even read Hebrew so what the hell do you know of Halacha? You have never read Shulchan Aruch.

Amazing how people like you make stuff up as you go along

[this is a name]

All of you fucking liberal retards keep voting Democrat so they can keep printing and borrowing and devaluing the dollar so that people who aren't rich have less and less purchasing power.

fucking liberal retards.

we need a return to the constitutional gold standard to protect the purchasing power of americans who aren't rich.

[Doug0909]

I agree with the general point of this post but Shmarya you misunderstand the numbers. The maximum SNAP benefit for a household of 2 only went up from $347 to $367 under the stimulus and that $20 is what is now lost because of Republican refusal to extend the program.http://www.dhs.state.il.us/page.aspx?item=67790
The couple in your example is not getting the maximum benefit based on their income and expenses. They would probably get a slightly higher amount (maybe close to $10 more) if the stimulus program were still in effect. You should correct this to show the numbers were never good (even though I can't stand Republicans...)

[this is a name]

government spending is making us all poor.

[Refugee from Boro Park]

Yehoshua David - I couldn't agree with you more. Including your standing up for Shmarya. What he does is a labor of love and it has already improved Jewish life by empowering the Jewish public with knowledge.

[Franklin Clinton]

The article is misleading, the $367 is for a family two, the $167 is only for one member of the family. The actual cut of a family of two is $347 from $367,
only $20!
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3899

We do not know anything about the income and benefits of the other person.

While it is definitely not fun to be poor , the person in the article does not have that bad:
(1) He or she already is using public housing where the person and his or her partner pay only $221 for housing including utilities!!
(2)
If the person is eligible for SNAP is also eligible for free cell phone ( (Assurance Wireless/SafeLink).
(3)
With income of $750 the person is eligible for medicaid so he would not have to pay anything (or very little) for medical care.

(4) Looking in feedingamerica.org there are few food banks in New York.

When a person gives money to individual beggar he does not know where the money is going to, it is much better to give the money to credible organizations like Feeding America or local food banks

[Sarek]

Thisisaname -
I would have thought a good Jew would agree with the statement, "you shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold."

[this is a name]

a good jew does not want his money to be worth shit cause the government printed too much of it without backing it up.

[swamp gas]

I don't think plunging the economy into deflation is something anyone should want. Besides, we need inflation to make it easier to repay debt.

[oyvey]

Nu Nu, The poor people in Israel are also in a harder situation since Lapid cut off the stipend per child to almost half.

You just defend him, not thinking about the truly poor who can't buy an extra loaf of bread because of it.

[this is a name]

we need to not have debt and go down the road of Weimar republic.

[swamp gas]

we will never repay even the debt we have without inflation

[this is a name]

we certainly can pay it back little by little.

making everyone except the ultra rich poor via inflation is not the answer.

[Alms for the Boor]

A word about beggars at Brooklyn wedding halls. For many years already many of them have no bounds. They steal food off the plates of invited guests should the guests even very briefly step away.

The beggars of old did not behave so badly. And it is brought in Halacha (something that Shmarya knows NOTHING about) that certain bad behaviors of a beggar is a sign that such a person is not really in need)

And consider who Shmarya's sources in these areas have been in the past - mentally ill conspiracy theorists, one of whom was a miser sitting on a fortune

[Alms for the Boor]

There are also a lot of subliminal messages in Shmarya's latest rant.

He must be jealous for instance that some members of Landau's shul can afford a Prime Grill dinner when all his own shnorring on the blog scores him is some treif Chinese slop at a greasy spoon joint

[Alms for the Boor]

Janc Bachi, how old are you? You never saw the non-Chassidish nut known as "the Mechutan" shnorring in Boro Park? Or the Puerto Rican wino on 13th Ave dressed in yeshivish clothes?

[Shari]

@swamp gas--We've already cut the deficit, brought to us by George 43 waging a war on two fronts while slashing taxes and bringing us the Great Recession, in half.

[jancsibacsi]

Alms for the Boor-- I wrote many times before that in pre war europe there was much much less schnoring then here in usa were you get all the goodies,all this schnoring is making a mockery out of judaism its like the whole religion is a big joke,and that is an abomination.

[Alms for the Boor]

The Great Recession was thanks to Clinton placing minorities into homes they couldn't afford by threatening banks they would be punished for "discrimination" if they didn't lend

And the next one will be thanks to Obama opening the Southern border like a sieve to illegal aliens & the fallout from the unworkable Obamacare

[Shmarya]

>>>"…And consider who Shmarya's sources in these areas have been in the past - mentally ill conspiracy theorists, one of whom was a miser sitting on a fortune"

Posted by: Alms for the Boor | August 02, 2014 at 08:45 PM<<<

WTF are you talking about?

The only mentally ill person talking about this issue is you – the pathological liar.

[Shmarya]

Franklin Clinton –

Idiot.

The family of two got $367. It was then cut to $347 in January, and CUT AGAIN NOW TO $167.

Over and over and over again, you lie, you mislead, and you fuck up, and never to you ever correct or apologize for your BS.

That stops now.

The next time you lie, mislead or simply make a mistake and then don't correct it or apologize, you're done here.

[polka]

The fat man heath spoken... hear ye hear ye

[Alms for the Boor]

You know exactly what I'm talking about. Your sources are shnorrers. Many shnorrers are mentally ill & misers. And your late friend Howard was sitting on a fortune.

[Shmarya]

1. Many beggars are ill physically and mentally – that's often why have to beg.

2. You're ass and a psychopathic liar, Archie. And you're done.

[old time brooklyn]

yd

very good points
charity though is fo
r all g-ds children

[Shmarya]

>>>"You know exactly what I'm talking about. Your sources are shnorrers. Many shnorrers are mentally ill & misers. And your late friend Howard was sitting on a fortune."

Posted by: Alms for the Boor | August 02, 2014 at 10:28 PM<<<

Just more proof that Archie (Alms fore the Boor, etc., etc.) is an ignoramus.

A person who has assets that he can liquidate at a ***fair price** is forbidden from accepting charity.

"Fair price" is not fire sale prices or 1/10th of retail value prices, etc.

And if those assets are what he derives income from – i.e., his business – in most case he does not have to sell them at all.

Howard's business was renting and leasing those assets – the pictures – and the only offers to buy those pictures were well below fair market value.

You are a sick person,.

[Franklin Clinton]

show me where SNAP monthly allowance for family of two was reduced from $347 to $167 and then I will apologize, please research something before you write about it.

You can ban me or whoever you want but you cannot ban the truth.

You are just an insecure BT like Gil Student who also banned me for saying the truth (which he did not like).

You did few good things like exposing sexual predators and crooks but overall you are a low class bully picking up on weaker people, exaggerating and laying, basically you are not much better than the Satmars you so despise and just as mean spirited as your arch enemy Archie Banker.

You are consumed by hatred, rage, resentment and pathological embitterment

and as wise haredi rabbi (yes, there are some..) said:
check yo self before you wreck yo self

[Barry 5]

IF the Chareidim are so terrible why are the poor people asking them for money?
Answer:Whatever you say about the Chareidim they acgtually are the ones who do give!.

I daven in Landaus and and the situation there is not simple.People want and do give charity but do not want to be hounded.I do not know what the solution is, but can tell u that many times i skip going to Landaus because of this

[Shmarya]

Please.

If you READ THE DOCUMENT I POSTED you will clearly see that the recipient is referred to as a family of 2 in the notice which also says "the following individuals [PLURAL] are approved for SNAP benefits."

This is proof you would have had all on your own if you had bothered to read the documents – but you didn't do that. You just mouthed off like you always do in a sick mixture of half-facts, half-truths and lies.

[Yahoshua David]

"You are consumed by hatred, rage, resentment and pathological embitterment"

No he's not. Quite the opposite. You just cant see it though because your not able to see right and wrong. This happens when you lack holy spirit. If Halakha is not sound, or is interpreted wrong, then you will not gain holy spirit. You dont even have to read, it can simply be passed down to you through role models and parents. Only real Torah gives mankind the holy spirit. When you lack holy spirit, you dont know right from wrong, when this happens, you the suffer curses.

You can even go further and say ypur not a Jew. Seriously aside from man made rules if you dont have the holy spirit you can make a claim that your actually no longer a jew because your not taking up Hashems *offer* (not birthright) to follow/live his rules.

The Chabad people have more holy spirit than anyone simply because the Rebbe often gave them authentic Torah which resenated with an inner truth that we all have. When you cant recognize truth, its because your cursed and corrupted right now. This is like living with an aputation.

[jancsibacsi]

Franklin Clinton----'and as wise haredi rabbi (yes, there are some..) said:
check yo self before you wreck yo self"
Thats the biggest lie of them all,are you for real, a rabbi said that? wasnt it jimmy hendrix or some other musician?

[Wigmore]

"Wedding halls like Ateres Chinka ban beggars – even though allowing beggars to beg at weddings and eat from a special food table set up for uninvited guests has been normative Orthodox practice since Talmudic times."

I am sorry, but I do not believe that if I throw a party, Halacha requires that I allow in uninvited people, especially those who are beggars.

[Shmarya]

Wigmore –

Believe whatever you want, but the actual halakha is as I wrote.

One of the really sad things about many people with haredi and even MO educations is how little they actually know about halakha.

[Wigmore]

Then educate me. Where does it say this in the Torah?

[Shmarya]

Do you know the difference between a d'orita and d'rabbanan mitzvah?

[Wigmore]

Yes.

[Shmarya]

So why did you ask me to show you where the Torah says it?

[Wigmore]

Because I am asking you for a citation, in the same way I would ask a rav. If you believe that what you said is indeed Halacha, then do me the courtesy of giving me a bit more, e.g. a reference that I could look up.

[Shmarya]

First of all, you have asked where in halakha it says this.

Past that, any frum person who has ever lived in a large Orthodox community sees that weddings always have a special table of cake and other food and drink set up for people who come to weddings just to dance and for poor people and other uninvited guests.

Not knowing this tells me you either very inattentive or you that you don't live in a community where such people exist.

As for your contention that you can hold a public event like a wedding and bar "uninvited people, especially those who are beggars," it displays a level of appalling ignorance of halakha, or history or the gemara – of Judaism.

Kamtza and Bar Kamtza and the copious rabbinic commentaries on it throughout the corpus of hakakha and gemara literature would be a good place for you to start.

After that, look at Yoreh Dayah in teh late 240s and earlu 250s.

[sifter]

I'm not in NYC and I'm not Hareidi, and after insurance and mortgage I have about that or less to live on. For everything. My bad, should've could've would've, but I don't sit in a Kollel all day, I'm lucky just to make it to shul every Sat. morning. So, no, it's not enough, especially for a family of 3 like mine.

[Wigmore]

Shmarya,

Your message is appallingly rude and you owe me an apology.

First, I am not one of the people who come here to insult you. Indeed, my record is more of support and in fact I have privately emailed you with various news tips.

You don't know me and how you presuppose to know where and how I live is ridiculous. You like to look up people's IP addresses. Go ahead with mine and it should say Verizon as the ISP and New York City as the location. More specifically, I live in Borough Park and a search of past messages would show this.

That being said, your comment that, "Past that, any frum person who has ever lived in a large Orthodox community sees that weddings always have a special table of cake and other food and drink set up for people who come to weddings just to dance and for poor people and other uninvited guests" is absolutely not true when it comes to Young Israel shuls, whether mine or any of the ones in Nassau County.

I am indeed quite attentive but certainly in a better position to look at things here that you are from far away in Minnesota.

Regarding Kamtza and Bar Kamtza, I'm sorry, but you are using the story for something other than it was intended. The moral of that story is that is wrong to humiliate someone in public as indeed is noted in Pirkei Avot. The moral of that story is absolutely NOT to excuse "gate crashing."

There is no authority whatsoever in Halacha to take food from a party to which you were not invited. In point of fact, that is geneiva. In my shul, and in others, sometimes the entire congregation is invited to a Kiddush and other times only the guests of the people making it. That is true in many modern Orthodox shuls.

It is true that some people--especially Chasidim--believe that a minhag equates to Halacha but you know that is not true.

[Shmarya]

That Young Israel shuls misbehave shouldn't surprise you given how Young Israel was run for the last couple decades.

Past that, I didn't mean to insult you. But there are halakhic and historical facts.

That you don't know them is likely the fault of your Young Israel rabbis.

I just read a piece by a right wing Zionist Orthodox rabbi in Israel holding that you don't have to give large amounts of tzedaka to beggars (unless you know they are absolutely legit). But you have to give something.

And his entire argument is based on the idea that the Jewish community funds these beggars and provides for their needs according the rulings of the Shulkhan Arukh – but this is demonstrably false, just as Rabbi Landau's claims are demonstrably false.

In America, a single poor person does not qualify for Jewish communal housing unless s/he is very disabled or a senior citizen and getting safe public housing is extremely difficult unless your inside Satmar or some other haredi group that has scamming the system worked out down to an art form.

So that poor beggar may have to pay $1,000 or $1,500 per month in rent on top of food and medical expenses and clothing.

What's s/he getting from the government? Far less than $200 in food stamps and possibly a small disability check or welfare.

Do the math.

They don't have enough money to live.

The Shulkhan Arukh says the Jewish community must support poor people at the level they were accustomed to (or higher) before they became poor.

We don't do that, however, even though we do support rabbis at far greater levels of lifestyle than the rabbis of the Mishna and Gemara would have ever imagined.

That you can live in BP as an Orthodox Jew surrounded by haredi and be unfamiliar with what the Shulkhan Arukh requires, what the Gemara requires and what loads of rabbinic literature requires in terms of charity and the poor tells me your rabbi needs a new job dishing out food in a soup kitchen.

God left helping the poor to us.

More than prayers (which are only d'rabbanan, BTW) you don't want interrupted and the simchas celebrating religious events you throw, taking care of the poor is our responsibility.

It's a fundamental lesson of Judaism that needs to be reinforced and taught – and practiced.

[jancsibacsi]

Shmarya---People are fed up with all day seeing schnorers all over coming and ringing the bell i get that here in bp,and those that come into our synagougue are 99 per cent fakes especially the chassidim i see it going out and getting into their nice cars they are laughting how they can dupe others what a shame.

[dh]

Is 'Shamya' the new 'Shamwow'? Not that that's a bad thing.

[Chum Lee]

Dude, do you make enough money to file a tax return? Then show us a scan where you are deducting charitable contributions to the poor. Or else this whole post is just a bunch of sanctimonious crap on your part.

People can also make donations to feed poor people instead of letting any vagrant mosey on in to their wedding party. These are not the poor Jews of European villages of old. Street bum of every creed are walking around Briooklyn with attire stolen from synagogue coat rooms. Strange that someone with no plans of his own to get married is imposing a guest list on everyone else.

[Shmarya]

Idiot.

You are the antithesis of everything the Ba'al Shem Tov stood for.

When the Rebbe was alive, little man, did he throw beggars out of 770? Did he charge them a fee to beg inside? Did he ban them from attending weddings and other events? When he gave out dollars did he ban them?

The answer to each of those questions, little hasid, is no.

Amazing, isn't it, how you know more than the man you worship?

[Chum Lee]

I don't worship any man, fat man, who hath no G-d.

The Halacha is we give to non Jews except when they pretend to be Jews. There are a staggering number of beggars today who are not Jewish but cloaked in Jewish attire, often stolen from Shuls & yeshivos.

The problem is much more pronounced today than when the Rebbe was alive.

Now cough up proof that you give money to the poor.

[Topsy Turvy]

Government spending appears to have taken place also in Hungary, however the degree of it is unclear.

Most of the votes of the individuals in the last presidential election were rather stimulated by a insurmountable fear that republicans will cut benefits.And it appears that tis pattern will continue to be prevalent in future elections.

[Wigmore]

To me, Halacha represents the requirements of Jewish law, whether positive or negative. Deliberately violating Halacha without a legitimate excuse would be a sin.

That said, there are surely disputes over what Halacha requires.

Should we give charity? Yes. Should we help the poor? Yes. Ideally, we can combine them.

Is a Jew required to give money to every single person who asks him? No. (Doesn't it say something like "each according to his means?")

I went the full 12 years to Orthodox yeshivas and was never taught the view of Halacha that supposedly obligates me to welcome beggars into my party. Interestingly, none of my friends, relatives or even old summer camp buddies were taught this and that means we are talking about at least two dozen different yeshivas now.

No one is obligated to give charity beyond his or her means. When I donate to Masbia or Tomche Shabbos I am indeed giving charity and feeding the poor. To say otherwise flies in the face of the facts.

If it is true that saying prayers in a synagogue is simply a rabbinical edict, then surely there is plenty in Jewish teaching about conduct and manners that also applies to disturbing those praying.

I am sure Jancsi can attest to the behavior of people at the Borough Park congregation called Shomer Shabbos on 13th Avenue and 53rd Street. I used to go there when I had yahrzeit until I could no longer put up with people INTERRUPTING my saying Kaddish to ask me for money. Does Halacha excuse such vile behavior? I think not.

As to who is poor and who is not and who needs what and who doesn't, I visited a Masbia facility and found that they ask no questions of anyone who wants a meal. (They say that if you plan on coming regularly they would like some sort of evidence of need but read there materials and found their enforcement of this requirement extremely flexible.)

Here in New York City, in addition to having the largest public housing system in the country, the poor have available:

Welfare
Medicaid
NYC Health and Hospitals Corp. (Completely free even if not covered by Medicaid)
Section 8 (rent payments)
HEAP (heating bills)
Cooling Assistance
SNAP (food stamps)
WIC
Free cell phones, and a number of other things. http://www1.nyc.gov/nyc-resources/categories/social-services/benefits-support/index.page

I file honest tax returns and I give to my congregation as well as a few charities. If you believe we are all judged by the "heavenly tribunal," I'll take my chances.

Inasmuch as Tisha B'Av is upon us, I think I've had enough "sinas chinum" for now.

[Shmarya]

"….Should we give charity? Yes. Should we help the poor? Yes. Ideally, we can combine them.

Is a Jew required to give money to every single person who asks him? No. (Doesn't it say something like "each according to his means?")…"

Sad to say your rabbis have done a horrible job of education on this issue.

You simply do not know the halakha.

One of the D'ORITIA mitzvot is giving charity to the poor.

If a person needs food you have to give him some immediately, unless you have none.

You list all the supposed benefits poor people get when the reality is most poor people only get SNAP and nothing more.

You don't care about the facts. You want to live your comfortable life, facts be damned.

[Wigmore]

Why must every disagreement here be so abrasive and personalized?

"One of the D'ORITIA mitzvot is giving charity to the poor."

Agreed, but you can set a limit. I seem to recall something about ten per cent. I'm not required to bankrupt myself.

"If a person needs food you have to give him some immediately, unless you have none."

If by this you mean that if someone asks me for money for food I am obliged to give him money as long as I have SOME money, then I disagree.

"You list all the supposed benefits poor people get when the reality is most poor people only get SNAP and nothing more."

Nonsense. But then I am here in New York City and can watch what is going on. For that matter I volunteer with a legal service organization that has a section devoted solely to securing "benefits" like the ones listed for people and they do a very good job.

Additionally, a friend of mine works for a New York City agency in which his job is determining whether people are qualified for benefits. He says lots of people get more than just SNAP.

I care a great deal about facts, one of them being that my life is not THAT "comfortable."

Let's return to civility, PLEASE.

[Shmarya]

>>>>"If a person needs food you have to give him some immediately, unless you have none."

If by this you mean that if someone asks me for money for food I am obliged to give him money as long as I have SOME money, then I disagree.<<<

Then you're disagreeing with the Shulkhan Arukh and normative halakha.

And that's my point. You don't actually know the halakha and your rabbis have apparently never taught it.

I'm sorry you weren't taught and sorry you don't know.

But that does not change the fact that you are wrong.

As for benefits, you are delusional.

Very few people on SNAP get anything but SNAP, and those who do most frequently do not get housing.

Adults without young children don't get WIC. Most single people don't get much of anything past SNAP and minimal welfare or disability payments – which is why they make up such a large percentage of the homeless who are not mentally ill or addicts.

And even those who get every benefit you list except section 8 housing (which is almost always full and whose lists are often closed) can barely survive.

Academics, anti-poverty experts, church leaders, etc. pretty much agree with this across the board.

Who doesn't?

You – and many of your fellow Orthodox and haredim.

In your mind, the poor do just fine, thank you – even if the facts show they do not.

I've written before about a frum Jew who went to Satmar for help before Pesach because the neighborhood where he lived didn't have resources. Satmar gave him the runaround, told him to come in handicapped transportation for an appointment at a time they were closed, and jerked him around. When he wouldn't leave, they gave him $100. People who were in similar financial straits but are Satmar got much, much more. And the money? A large percentage of it came from the government and from the Met Council – which was and is well-aware of this scam.

You simply have no idea what really goes on.

All you want is not to be bothered by beggars and to be told you've done enough.

The halakha you claim to follow disagrees.

Again, that you don't know this is a matter you should take up with your rabbis and your teachers.

[Wigmore]

That's it. I'm done.

[Shmarya]

Yes. Of course. Be done.

Go ask your rabbis this question:

"A poor person came to me and asked for tzedaka to buy food. I didn't give him any tzedaka or any food because I already donated to Masiba. I'm told what I did is wrong and is a violation of a d'orita mitzvah. Is that true?"

Get back to me with the answers you get.

[Shmarya]

From today's DailyHalacha.com email:

>>>The Gemara says, “Do anything a host tell[s] you to do, except leave.” A guest is obliged to obey his host, unless his host tells him to leave the home.

The commentators raise the question of why a guest is entitled to remain in someone’s home against the host’s will. Seemingly, a host reserves the right to tell his guest to leave. How can we explain the Gemara’s comment?

The Sefat Emet (Rav Yehuda Aryeh Leib Alter of Ger, 1847-1905) explains that this provision was made in response to the tragic incident of Kamsa and Bar Kamsa, which the Gemara relates in Masechet Gittin. An invitation intended for Kamsa was mistakenly delivered to Bar Kamsa, and when Bar Kamsa arrived at the party, the host forced him to leave. Bar Kamsa was very embarrassed, and decided to avenge his disgrace by going to the Roman emperor and telling him that the Jews rebelled against him, ultimately causing the destruction of Jerusalem. In response, the Sages enacted this provision that if somebody comes to a function to which he was not invited, he should not be told to leave. And if the host tells him to leave, he does not have to listen.

Thus, if a person, for whatever reason, attends a function uninvited, the host should not embarrass him by telling him to leave. We should learn the lesson taught by the tragedy of Kamsa and Bar Kamsa, and ensure not to embarrass a fellow Jew, even in a case of an uninvited guest. <<<

So if a beggar comes to your simcha, you can likely ask him to only beg at n the hallway near the he door, or only go through the hall to each table once to beg, but you can't exclude him.

And that applies to any other meal or event – even a simple minyan in shul that is followed by a cake and coffee.

The only exception would be if the person is known to be dangerous or is wildly disruptive or intentionally ignores your requests.

And I'll bet you not one of your rabbis ever taught you this.