Video: Bobov 45 Rebbe May Ignore Beit Din Decision But Says He Wants Peace With His Rival

The Bobov 45 rebbe – the rebbe of the Bobov faction which lost a ten-year fight for succession last week in one of the longest-running beit dins in history – is allegedly consulting with important rabbis from Israel to see if he should obey that beit din decision or Ignore it. Even so, he says he wants to make peace with his rival.

 

Updated 10>01 pm CDT

The Bobov 45 rebbe – the rebbe of the Bobov faction which lost a ten-year fight for succession last week in one of the longest-running beit dins in history – is allegedly consulting with important rabbis from Israel to see if he should obey that beit din decision or Ignore it.

The Israeli rabbis will allegedly make a decision sometime within the next 90 days.

Even so, he says he wants to make peace with the opposing faction. In the above video, the rebbe says that an important haredi rabbi from Jerusalem told him that what is 'missing' from the beit din decision is a peace plan to lay out how Bobov 45 and the 'real' Bobov, Bobov 48 (the winners of the beit din case), should make peace so that hasidim from Bobov 48 and Bobov 45 begin talking to one another and attend each others celebrations again.

The Bobov 45 rebbe announced that he is ready and willing to make peace with his rival and says that he reaches out to his uncle, the Bobov 48 rebbe, and asks him to accept a peace dea.

Comments

[WoolSilkCotton; I must be seen to be believed]

Peace with Hamas seems pretty easy, by comparison.

[zionist]

"is consulting with important rabbis from Israel to see if he should obey that beit din decision or Ignore it."

If the Frummer then the Frum won't follow the 'Shulchan Aruch' and contiplate ignoring a 'psak of a Bais Din' who then should follow 'Halacha'???

Get this. He has to consult other Rabbis if he should obey! Aren't the B"D Rabbis as well???

Are we wrong to call these people "a living Fraud" ??? Is this a business or a religion???

We should quit while were ahead.

[Barry]

He and his followers should move to Bubowa in Poland so no one can then deny him his title as Bobover Rebbe.

[jancsibacsi]

zionist---"is consulting with important rabbis from Israel to see if he should obey that beit din decision or Ignore it."
Theese guys are here on earth for one reason to bicker and fight till death amongst themselfs and with others,they cannot rest for one second without conroversy.

[Mefoar]

As it happens here on FM many many times the post with its heading is misleading and far from accurate.

Most of the speech he talks in circles.

He does mention peace.

He does mention about an an important haredi rabbi from Jerusalem told him that what is "missing" from the beit din decision is a peace plan.

He does not mention his uncle.

Does not say that he is consulting with important rabbis from Israel to see if he should obey that beit din decision or ignore it.

He does not say anything about obeying the beit din decision or Ignore it.

[liar]

Shmarya, you clearly don't understand Yiddish. I listened to that entire speech and not ice does he say that he has, will or could ask anyone if he stood listen to the Beis Din.

All he says is that they need to make peace and quotes that Rabbi who says that a outreach plan should have been in the final ruling.

[Mb]

Make peace you will look good at the end - if you fight evreyone one loses

[Turd Degree]

"Shmarya, you clearly don't understand Yiddish."

Which should be less of a surprise than the fact that he apparently doesn't know the difference between an audio and a video ;-)

[Barry]

Mefoar - If I claimed you sold me your streimal for $100 and you claimed you sold it to me for $1,000, then the beis din would have to accept either my claim or your claim. What it cannot do is decide that you sold it for $500 so as to make peace or impose a settlement the parties are unwilling to make. How can a rebbe speak for half an hour without appreciating this basic jurisprudential principle?

[Mg]

You've obviously never heard of the concept of "peshora" (compromise).

[Shmarya Rosenberg]

Barry –

Actually, beit dins do just that all the time.

[Shmarya Rosenberg]

liar –

He’s doing exactly what I reported.

[A Yid]

Barry-
Peshora: http://www.torah.org/advanced/business-halacha/5757/vol2no12.html

[EMES]

Shmarya-
He may be doing exactly what you reported but not in the video you posted, as liar has already pointed out.
If you have another source to your statements why are you not bringing it?
Instead you bring a video in which he does NOT say that "he is consulting with important rabbis from Israel to see if he should obey that Beth Din decision or Ignore it"
You are probably being misled by the other faction. Please ask any OTD who is used to this type of Yiddish and you will see i'm right.
I hope you will be honest enough to rectify your report.

[Shmarya Rosenberg]

EMES –

I updated the post. Thanks.

[Barry]

It seems that a peshora can not be imposed involuntarily.

None of the cicumstances which appear in the torah.org article allowing peshora can apply in such a case. A chasidus can only have one rebbe just as England can only have one king, otherwise Shakespere would have had little to write about. For the sake of peace, the unsuccessful claimant to kingship may be made a duke or given some desolate island of Scotland, but there must only be one king.

[Barry 1]

Like Satmar, their fathers would be so proud!

[SucceededMesiah]

While understanding how such reports are important in the frum world, this Bobov story reaches new heights of provincialism and boredom. Software and product announcements are much more exciting than hassidic segmentation. I'll take an ipad 6.0 over a bobov 6.0.

[Sad &schocked]

This guy mordechai Duvid is soo full of it. I remember when his father in law was alive and he was just a Rosh hayeshiva, how he brainwashed all the bacharim in the mesivta against r, benzoin . At that time no one dreamt that there would be another rebbe other then r, benzoin . And now he's talking shalom? Are you kidding me? The amount of family fights he caused and family break ups etc.... This guy will burn in hell so badly . It's just like someone kidnaped your kid and brainwashed the kid against you and then he asks for peace... Are you kidding me?

[Shmarya Rosenberg]

For those who question what I wrote, listen carefully beginning at about 24:30 and going on until almost 26:00. You’ll hear him mention the Israeli rabbis.

Also see the headline of Kikar HaShabbat here:

http://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99-%D7%9E%D7%91%D7%90%D7%91%D7%95%D7%91-%D7%97%D7%91%D7%9C-%D7%A9%D7%A4%D7%A1%D7%93-%D7%94%D7%93%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%9C%D7%90-%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%94.html

[Shmarya Rosenberg]

Barry –

The practice for 150 years has been to award the winner certain property and naming rights and award the loser(s) some property or other items and the right to be a rebbe – but with a different dynastic identity in a different city or location. It’s also common for all claimants to agree that each is an “X” rebbe and allow them all to use the name, and let hasidim sort out the winners and losers over time.

[Mefoar]

Here is exactly what he said from 24:30 and going on until almost 26:00.
"i understand that many of you thought that i will come here and talk about things that was written about us.It does not belong to me(this subject) it belongs to Gedolei Yisrael and Rabbonim."

One may try to twist and say what he meant but he didn't say ANYTHING about obeying or ignoring the pesak.

[barry]

Mefoar, you quote the first 15 seconds from 24:30 - what about the following 75 seconds?

[Lipster]

Perhaps @Barry has the best idea. Let him go to Poland and be the "real" capo of the Bobov mob. That's fair.

Funny how losers suddenly sue for "peace and compromise" after losing a court case. It happens often.

[Shmarya Rosenberg]

Mefoar –

He’s trying to get the beit din decision annulled or to get permission to ignore it. That’s what he’s referring to. But he want to make piece with his rival so the hasidim – many of whom are related – can go back to being friends.

[MM]

"A chasidus can only have one rebbe just as England can only have one king, otherwise Shakespere would have had little to write about."

Actually during his own lifetime, Henry II of England had his son "Young Henry" crowned king as well. This turned out to be not the best of ideas.

[barry]

Young Henry lacked judgment and rose against his father. Young Henry died, in summer 1183, from dysentery at Limoges. He begged reconciliation with his father, but Henry II, afraid of trickery, would not see him sending a ring as assign of reconciliation. Young Henry died clutching his Father’s ring. Henry II apparently said on hearing of his son and heir’s death, “He cost me much, but I wish he had lived to cost me more”.

This dispute between the Bobover's can only be decided by best dancecrew rules

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_fnhdnu7ZA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCJxsbaVR3s

[M from 45]

It is obvious that you, and others unfamiliar with recent events, do not understand what he was saying. Let me fill in some details so that you can understand what he means. I will address both issues: 1. Why he is talking to Rabbanum and 2 what he means by making peace.

First, to avoid Loshen Harah, but to also refer to people who would be well known in Bobov but not outside, when I refer to the first generation, I mean the Rebbe Maharash and his sisters etc. The second is the Rebbe MaHaRN, and his generation and the third generation is that of the Rebbes, and Rov of 48 and 45 and those of us in that generation (anything further would go like that.) I will be referring to the Rabbis on the Beis Din as Rabbi A, B and C.

Before the Rebbe spoke I talked with some people and the basic view was this: Most likely we would take the name Bobov-45. No one seems to have a problem with that. There were however some recent events that have complicated the issue. The Rebbe before Shabbos was resigned to accept the psak and move on. However when the most important Kedushas Tzion einikel from the second generation heard this (RYY) he spoke to the Rebbe and told him he could not accept it. (It’s well known that first and second generation KTz einiklach support 45, and at most will go to both places to keep peace.)

Also on Shabbos Chazkel Roth, the Tenker Rov and one of the Belzer Dayanim among others openly spoke against the psak. After Shabbos Rabbi C was confronted when he went to doven in Sqver in BP. The Sqverer Rov confronted him as did some of the other people dovening there and he had to leave. There is growing anger towards the psak and support for the Rebbe. Some have talked of stopping to eat foods under the hecksher of Rabbi B.

Finally (although there are probably more things that I have not heard of and confirmed) ChH from the second generation dovened at 48 Rosh Chodesh and had a confrontation with the Rov there and asked why he couldn’t do like Satmar.

I could go through many of the halachic problems (just ask in Satmar and Viznitz if this psak reflects the true halacha) and just plain lies that went into the case for 48, I would like to only point out a couple of things in the psak itself which shows that at best they were not impartial and at worst outright corrupt. I am doing this so that you can understand why there is such an outrage at the moment.

First let me point out that the beis din case started with an argument over property rights and yerusha. Out of the 24 paragraphs the first 2 deal with that the next 20 deal with the NAME ‘Bobov’ which was not even part of the original law suit that led to this din Torah. (As far as who and what is a Rebbe with regards to halacha it is worthwhile to look at the end of the tshuva from the Tzanzer Rov Choshen Mishpat part 2 #32.)

Second, some of the paragraphs are just rishus (wickedness) and impossible for 45 to do. In paragraph 23 we are told that this psak is not sufficient, 45 is required to tell every person in the whole world that only 48 can be called Bobov. So, for example, if FM does not get notice from the Rebbe that they should stop calling 45 Bobov, than it is 45 who are violating the psak. And supposedly we would need to keep reminding you, if you decided to ignore the psak. Or let’s say I meet someone in the street and he asks what is going on in Bobov, meaning 45, I need to tell him, ‘you are not allowed to call 45 Bobov that means 48.’

It is impossible to read paragraph 12, the note on it and paragraphs 15, 16 17 without seeing the clear contradictions.

As it is, this psak is as big a chillul HaShem as the 10 years it took to make it. As a Satmar friend of mine put it: Satmar was the first to go to court and Bobov is the last to go to beis din. Unless something is done there will no longer be any serious din Torahs to deal with situations like this. That is why we have seen such strong statements about it and that is why the Rebbe is asking advice from gadolim. There are parts of this psak that effect much more than Bobov. (For example this psak clearly means that the situation in Satmar and Viznitz and many other places is contrary to halacha.)

I see 3 possible outcomes: 1. The Gadolim will see that it is important to openly come out with letters against the psak, and not just speaking about it in their shuls. 45 would then reject the psak and in court would bring their letters to nullify the beis din. (I believe this highly unlikely for many reasons primarily that it will just extend this fight.) 2. They will not be willing to come out openly because of the machlokus, but will show their non-acceptance in other ways, for example, relations with 48 will be cold, especially on his coming trip to Israel. 45 changes name, but everyone stills calls them Bobov. (This is the most likely scenario) 3. They will say 48 is right and the psak is good. (Highly unlikely since neither Satmar nor Viznitz can say that and other Rabbanim have openly ruled contrary to it.)

What this all means is that the Rebbe is consulting with the gadolim because in this situation that is what he should do because the psak effects much of the Chassidic world and not just Bobov. But I don’t expect anything to change.

As to his call for peace, that is consistent with how 45 has acted until now. It is only 48 (actually I need to say ‘some of 48’) which has made problems. I will give a personal example: I used to doven at a shul Friday night. They were big supporters of 48, but they did not make a problem. One of them did a shidduch with the family of the Rebbe of 48. I was not sent an invitation because I was from 45. It was taken for granted that would be the case.

There are people I have known for years who when I greet them on the street turn away. This never happened at 45. In fact a number of the big supporters of 48 have at times come to 45 for simchos and were always well treated. (I won’t even go into the many instances right after the Rebbe ZT’L died when 48 tried to stop 45 from getting a place to doven or things like that.) Peace will only come when 48 decides that they want it.

At this time peace is more in the long term interest of 48 then 45. The desire of 48 is not to be Bobov in name only, but to have the respect and kovod that the MahaRash and his son had in the Chassidic world. He doesn’t have it now, and the psak from the din Torah makes it less likely he will get it. Also do not be fooled into thinking that 48 is totally unified in their attitude. The view in the psak is really not reflective of a large portion of 48 who have accepted 45 as being Bobov. The Rebbe there will have problems because of that.

However a bold move, reaching out to his nephews, would show he is going in the derech of his father and greatly increase his stature in the Chassidic world. It would show that rather than being a personal vendetta, there was actually a real reason for the last 10 years. It could actually increase enthusiasm for him, and bring back to him many who left for other places. It would in essence nullify all the bad that has come over the last 10 years.

I seriously doubt that this will happen as there are much deeper issues that are involved here, but we can always hope and pray.

[Rodin]

M from 45:
Get a life! Here is the simple psak.
48 = Son = Halberstam = Bobov
45 = Son in-law = Unger = Gefilte fish

[M from 45]

Shmarya, our friend 'Rodin' is what I referred to. He will never make peace with the situation. But that was the whole point of the Rebbe's talk. The Chassidim should not get themselves involved, it is an issue for Rabbanim. We need to remember what the Rov ZT'L always said that we should not stand up for his kovid and make machlokus.

Rodin, seems you never read the psak din. What it really says is:

48 = Son = Halberstam = Bobov
45 = Son in-law = Unger = Bobov+

If I didn't know better I would think you area false Bobover, because those of us who are talmidim of the MaharaSH, know that what you say is the exact opposite of what he taught us.

[M from 45]

Someone pointed out this article: http://www.torah.org/advanced/business-halacha/5757/vol2no12.html
If I may I would like to draw your attention to paragraph E:

"E. Similarly, just as the Halacha is that a verdict is null and void if a Dayan has made a blatant mistake in his judgement. i.e. it is contrary to what is stated as the concluding Halacha in the Gemara, Shulchan Oruch, or accepted Halachic responsa (To'eh B'Dvar Mishna),"

Considering the actions of R Chaskel Roth, the Tenker Rov, Skverer Rov and others, I think asking the views of Gadolim is not a problem. If this halacha does not apply to the psak and it is 100% without a problem (as 48 will contend), why complain? What do they have to fear? (As I pointed out there is a tshuvah from Divrei Chaim in the same situation, brother vs. older brother's son-in-law where he ruled differently then this beis din in an number of issues.)

[Jekyll Jacobson]

Sad and shocked
Your Benzion was and is a pedophile and a creepy person. RMD is a person who spent most of his life learning and teaching real Torah; not some silly chasidishe maises.
Yeah, I've heard the stupid argument that Bobov should be led only by a Halberstam.

[Rodin]

M45,
Listen, stop ferdreing de yoitzros. You LEFT Bobov because you just could not accept R.BenZion as the Rebbe. Stop with the phony 'we want to get along'. If you want to get along it's simple, COME BACK ALL OF YOU to 48. Bobov will welcome you back. No hard feelings. But of course, you wont, because you still want your independent little 'malchus'. You are a bunch of self righteous phonies. Yes, you want peace, but you also want your piece of the Bobov pie.

[M from 45]

Jekyll, such language about BZ is forbidden and false.

[M from 45]

Rodin, we left 48 because AA and DR called police from the 66th precinct to remove us. Or have you forgotten that the police threw us out in order for BZ to doven in the Beis Midrash when the minhag we saw by the MahRaSH was that he DID NOT doven in Beis Midrash when he was sitting shivah.

As to coming back, you may be a behamah that can be inherited like a building, but the right to choose a Rebbe based on who we think is better qualified and will be better able to lead us in the derech of Bobov and Tzanz, is not something that one gets by blood alone. Maybe you need to look at that tshiva from the Divreah Chaim again.

In any case the din Torah is basically over. Get over it. We were Bobov in the past, we are now and we will forever be Bobov, even if we need to add a name to it.

We will continue in the derech that our Rebbes of Bobov taught us, from the MaHaRan, the MaHaRaSH, Kedushas Tzion, Ershter Rov, and the Tzanzer Rov.

[Jekyll Jacobson]

Rodin
You are the typical Bobover shoite.

[M from 45]

Rodin, that is certainly not what the MaHaRaSH said about me.(Did you ever actually talk with him?)And certainly not what the MaHaRaN said.

It is interesting that when I point out to you the facts, you do not even try and justify your view. You don't even try to say they are wrong.Because,as you know, they are not.

The truth is that what you and those in 48 whose views you represent are saying is contrary to halacha and chassidus as taught by the Tzanzer Rov and in Bobov until the petura of teh MaHaRaN.

I am quite certain that your attacks on my Rebbe are not like those of the Gorlitzer on the ershter Rov.

[M from 45]

Sorry Rodin, thought it was you making the comment and not Jekyll.

Jekyll such comments are unbecoming. Let them be the name callers.

[EMES]

Guys, As an outsider it seems that both sides won and lost something big and this is a type of pshora.

From my knowledge in general chasidic historical Standards (Correct me if i'm wrong):

The fact that a non Tzans-Bobov descendant can call himself Bobov is a big novelty to the way things went in chasidic court historically.
Its a big Victory for 45 and a patch in panim (Slap in the face) to 48.

Physically the Rabbis accorded the buildings etc to the other side, which is a way for them to be able to accept the slap in the face, but a message that you may be technically Yorshim, Inheritans but Spiritually a guy with no Bobov Blood has the spiritual right to that name!!

[M from 45]

EMES, I would like to make one correction the Rebbe of 45 is a Tzanz descendant and his father-in-law was the last Rebbe in Bobov.

I think a better analysis is this: If you go according to halacha based on what in Tzanz they would ruled then this is pretty one sided and 45 lost a lot more in the peshora. (i.e. 45 would have had no conditions on using the the name 'Bobov' and controlling interest of the Beis Midrash)

But if you look at what 48 wanted (no name for 45 and no money) 48 lost pretty big.(Shared name and they have to give money)

Even if you look at the original deal 45 was willing to make in order that there should be peace(10 million, and they would not press any claims to the name or anything else)which Moshe Chaim Mandelbaum (O'H) wanted they should accept but AA and his faction opposed; 48 lost what they could have had.45 is Bobov, not Kartsheen or any of the other names they made up.

I think if you want to know who won and who lost, in 6 months make a survey in 45 and 48 and see who is happier about the psak. I know in 45 even those of us who think the beis din was corrupt (I don't mean now but 5 - 7 years ago) and the psak is a travesty are still smiling and joking about it.(probably because we never expected and still do not expect to get any of the money due us from 48)

[SCH]

So today who is happier with the psak?