Haredi Rabbis Ban All Yeshiva Students From Serving In The IDF Under Any Circumstances

“The Councils of Torah Sages demand from the authorities that they immediately cancel the decisions of the [Knesset enlistment] committee [providing for] the coercive drafting into military service of yeshiva students, and call on all yeshiva students not to enlist to the army in any way whatsoever, not to surrender to any blandishments and punishments, and not to cooperate with the army induction center for haredim, but instead to toil in their studies day and night.…"

Haredi Rabbis Ban All Yeshiva Students From Serving In The IDF Under Any Circumstances
Shmarya Rosenberg • FailedMessiah.com

The councils of Torah sages of each ‘mainstream’ haredi political faction – the Ashkenazi non-haredi Degel Hatorah faction, the hasidic Agudat Yisrael faction (which together with Degel HaTorah makes up the United Torah Judaism Party), and the Sefardi Shas Party – issued a joint statement late Monday, the Jerusalem Post reported, prohibiting all haredi yeshiva students from serving in the IDF.

“The Councils of Torah Sages demand from the authorities that they immediately cancel the decisions of the [Knesset enlistment] committee [providing for] the coercive drafting into military service of yeshiva students, and call on all yeshiva students not to enlist to the army in any way whatsoever, not to surrender to any blandishments and punishments, and not to cooperate with the army induction center for haredim, but instead to toil in their studies day and night.

“We tremble before the terrible desecration of God’s name and the insult to the Torah that this matter has caused.

“We are fearful of the results and are pained by the ongoing harassment of the Torah world.”

The statement was issued after the first joint meeting of the three councils of sages ever.

The non-hasidic Ashkenazi haredi rebel faction headed by Rabbi Shmuel Auerbach has already banned his followers from serving in the IDF and the anti-Zionist Edah Haredit faction has never served in the IDF or had any formal relationship with the state.

Member of Knesset Mordechai Yogev of the Zionist Orthodox HaBayit HaYehudi party, who reportedly sat as an alternate on the Knesset committee that wrote th new proposed universal draft bill, told the Post the joint statement was a “natural reaction to efforts of Yesh Atid to coercively draft haredi men.” The issue of criminal leveling criminal charges on haredim who dodge the draft had to be rethought, Yogev added.

Reform Rabbi Uri Regev, who heads the religious freedom nonprofit Hiddush, opposes criminal charges for haredi draft dodgers. Regev lashed out at Yair Lapid’s Yesh Atid Party, which had forced the coalition to include criminal charges in the proposed bill.

“The heads of Yesh Atid succeeded in recording a historic achievement in uniting the rabbinical councils against enlistment. The achievement is especially impressive given that even the haredi politicos know there is no chance that the law will be implemented,” Regev reportedly said. He also called on Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to “regain his composure and act as the responsible adult in the government, and force through the imposition of economic sanctions instead of the ridiculous delusion of criminal sanctions.”

As the proposed bill is now structured, very few actual haredi yeshiva students would be drafted against their will. Instead, the haredi quota would primarily be filled by ba’al teshuvas, ex-haredim, haredi shabbabnikim (‘bums’ who either were expelled from haredi yeshivas or walked out of them and who now roam the streets in packs), and Chabad hasidim (who are not part of the mainstream haredi community and its negotiating process).

But the proposed bill as it is now worded would allow many haredim to leave yeshiva in their early- to mid-20s, and would also lead to many haredim joining the workforce in some fashion, things haredi rabbinic leaders feel would lessen the authenticity of the haredi community – and haredi rabbis’ hold on their followers.

They also see this ban as a way to hurt Yesh Atid and its hated chairman, Yair Lapid – something Netanyahu would also very much like to do.

If criminal charges are removed from the proposed bill and Yesh Atid leaves the coalition – as it has threatened to do in response – that would open the door to bring the haredi political parties into the coalition – a goal those haredi politicians share with Netanyahu.

The rabbis joint statement. Please click to enlarge:

[Hat Tip for the letter: Burich.]

Comments

[Reese]

So in effect what these dwellers of a parallel universe are saying is F... You to the rest of the Jews. Our children's blood is more sacred than your children's blood. We want your money to support us so we can have lavish weddings, bar mitzvahs, etc.., however, we are better than you, and you are worthless. Keep protecting us so the Arabs won't slaughter us like we were in Europe, but don't you dare ask us to contribute anything in return! By the way, we don't really accept the legitimacy of your trief government! Just let us fornicate to our hearts content and be an unarmed target for the murdereous Jew haters of the world.

[Context]

Yair Lapid inherited his blind hatred of Haredim from his father, former Tel Aviv Mayor Tommy Lapid.

People with blind unmitigated hatred are prone to fail miserably which even the Reform movement recognizes. We know "someone else" who has the same blind hatred problem.

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2010/01/09/us/09religion01.html

That "someone" always puts the word mainstream in quotation marks for Haredim as if what he does day & night is "normal".

And did any of Shmarya's relatives dodge or weasel out of the draft in WWI, WWII, Korea or Vietnam?

If Torah study is not a legitimate exemption from military service, what about grandpa Leon Gleckman? Did he ever serve? Racketeering is certainly not a valid exemption.

[S M L]

How is Shmarya responsible for whatever his grandfather did or didn't do, or for what his other relatives did? Are the sins of the father visited on the son? I guess I didn't get the memo. Must have been in Yiddish...

[Jeff]

"We are fearful of the results and are pained by the ongoing harassment of the Torah world.”

In their minds, funding their completely unproductive way of life for decades = "harassment".

Again, they are completely out of touch with objective reality.

[Jeff]

"Yair Lapid inherited his blind hatred of Haredim from his father, former Tel Aviv Mayor Tommy Lapid... If Torah study is not a legitimate exemption from military service, what about grandpa Leon Gleckman?"

Yes, the frum obsession with "yichus". One would think you were breeding racehorses.

[David]

+++Are the sins of the father visited on the son?

Posted by: S M L | February 25, 2014 at 06:35 AM+++

Of course not. Another part of Torah that the frumma missed despite their 24/7 "learning".

[Yochanan Lavie]

Shabbos goyim will fight to defend against genocidal jihadis.

In other news, the Toyreh Sages have prohibited breathing, because Zionists do that.

[Jeff]

"In other news, the Toyreh Sages have prohibited breathing, because Zionists do that."

Huge "Like". Schachter should have used that one in his argument against women putting on tefillin.

[jancsibacsi]

jeff---"In their minds, funding their completely unproductive way of life for decades = "harassment".
Thats exactly right they ruminate on something that doesnt produce anything and they want others to finance their lifestyle,in my wildest imagination i could not think of something more destructive and selfish then that,they bring hate upon themselfs and they blame others for hating them ,they actually think they are the ones who rule this universe playing god.

[mickee]

Jeff,
I find it so interesting that you are so involved in bashing Haredim and that you have nothing better to do with your time.

"The "Gentlemen" Doth Protest Too Much"

[Jeff]

>>"The "Gentlemen" Doth Protest Too Much"

That isn't even the right quote to use for what you're trying to say.

You really are hugely outclassed here. Unfortunately, others are validating you by arguing with you as though you had something of value to say.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Jeff: "Methinks the lady doth protest too much" was Hamlet's reaction to watching a play . He thought the female lead was overacting. It has come to mean that too vehement a denial of something is a subconscious signal that one is really attracted to it (ex. over the top homophobia indicating latent fairyhood). What "mickee" wrote was a non-sequiter; unless he thinks you're secretly chareidi.

[Alter Kocker]

The council of Torah Sages are traitors. Send a message, line them up against a wall and execute them. That is what should happen to traitors. Oh and by the way, Haredi yeshiva students who refuse the draft, will experience similar justice.

[mickee]

Alter Kocker,

You are a murderous lunatic

[mickee]

One of the more interesting quotes by Shakespeare: it's almost always misquoted as "Methinks the lady doth protest too much," Queen Gertrude's line is both drier than the misquotation (thanks to the delayed "methinks") and much more ironic. Prince Hamlet's question is intended to smoke out his mother, to whom, as he intended, this Player Queen bears some striking resemblances [see THE PLAY'S THE THING]. The queen in the play, like Gertrude, seems too deeply attached to her first husband to ever even consider remarrying; Gertrude, however, after the death of Hamlet's father, has remarried. We don't know whether Gertrude ever made the same sorts of promises to Hamlet's father that the Player Queen makes to the Player King (who will soon be murdered)—but the irony of her response should be clear.

By "protest," Gertrude doesn't mean "object" or "deny"—these meanings postdate Hamlet. The principal meaning of "protest" in Shakespeare's day was "vow" or "declare solemnly," a meaning preserved in our use of "protestation." When we smugly declare that "the lady doth protest too much," we almost always mean that the lady objects so much as to lose credibility. Gertrude says that Player Queen affirms so much as to lose credibility. Her vows are too elaborate, too artful, too insistent. More cynically, the queen may also imply that such vows are silly in the first place, and thus may indirectly defend her own remarriage.

[mickee]

I just think that all of you Haredi basher's are constantly attempting to assuage any questions you may have as to the choice you've made to abandon the religion of your fathers by ridiculing and attacking those who are adhering steadfast to those same traditions.

Why else would you spend so much time on this board trashing religious Jews?

If your truly don't believe the religion has any validity and that god doesn't exist then why would you bother commenting on every mistake and misstep that the Orthodox do?

[Allan]

The crazy thing is their own Torah beliefs mandate the exact opposite behavior. In two week they will be celebrating a holiday where Moredecai and Esther tell the Jews to take up arms and fight their enemies. Moses and Joshua did the same and so did Devorah. In fact, she chastised those who shirked their duty and did not show up for battle.

Even if they consider the secular government evil, there is no doubt that this is a case where Jews are literally fighting for their lives against implacable enemies. In a sane world these rabbis would be the loudest voices urging their students to do their duty, take up arms and defend the Jewish people.

[mickee]

My son will be serving in the IDF this coming year.

[Jeff]

>> What "mickee" wrote was a non-sequiter; unless he thinks you're secretly chareidi.

>>Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | February 25, 2014 at 08:44 AM

Right, that was, essentially, my meaning. What mickee was trying to say, which he then stated more fully, was that we all know the truth secretly, we feel guilty for having abandoned it and are in states of denial because of it.

It is almost precisely the same argument you get from evangelical apologists.

[Shmarya Rosenberg]

>>>"And did any of Shmarya's relatives dodge or weasel out of the draft in WWI, WWII, Korea or Vietnam?

If Torah study is not a legitimate exemption from military service, what about grandpa Leon Gleckman? Did he ever serve? Racketeering is certainly not a valid exemption."<<<

My father and uncle both fought in WW2, my father in Europe and my uncle in North Africa.

All of their male cousins served, as well, and one died in combat.

My godfather served as doctor/officer in Korea and was POW (Chinese-held) for almost three years. He is widely credited with saving the lives of many of his fellow POWs. He was high ranking officer in the reserves after that.

I had older cousins who served in Viet Nam either as active duty soldier or as US government program officers. All saw combat, including being heavily shelled.

Younger relatives served in the second Gulf War.

Leon was married and had children by the time the US entered WW1, so he didn't serve. He did, however, later supply arms for the Haganah.

[Jeff]

"If your truly don't believe the religion has any validity and that god doesn't exist then why would you bother commenting on every mistake and misstep that the Orthodox do?"

Because Shmarya is trying to raise awareness about the realities of the Haredi world among a Jewish populace that has come to see the Haredim as somehow representing a more authentic Judaism than their own.

Meanwhile, if you frummies truly believe we're wrong, why do you all come here and post these asinine comments? Why not just walk away and leave us in peace?

I can just as easily claim (and often do) that the answer is that you suspect Shmarya is correct and it terrifies you, so you try to discredit and invalidate him so as not to have to be confronted with any sort of challenge to your way of life. It's called "denial".

[Jeff]

@Allen: "In a sane world"

Well, there you go.

[Yochanan Lavie]

What mickee doesn't realize is that there is a diversity here; of opinion, belief, background, and observance. If the minhag goes through one's father, then I abandoned the Reform Judaism of my father and the non-observant Conservative Judaism of my paternal grandfather. So what would he want me to "return" to? If he means theism, I already believe in God in a Maimonidean sense. If he means charieidism/chassidism, these are relatively recent phenomena meant as a backlash against modernity. Same is true with fundamentalism; neither Rambam nor Ibn Ezra can be classified as fundamentalists. The shtetl or urban ghetto ,were imposed upon the Jews, who used to live wherever they pleased. So it is no more "authentic" than living in a McMansion in Westchester County. What is the secret, ideal past for which our souls yearn? Who gets to say that you or I are less "authentic" than a welfare-mouching yeshiva bochur; something the Rambam and many others would disapprove of?

[mickee]

>>Right, that was, essentially, my meaning. What mickee was trying to say, which he then stated more fully, was that we all know the truth secretly, we feel guilty for having abandoned it and are in states of denial because of it.<<

You are incorrect yet again.

I know that you truly don't believe either in G-d or in the Religion. There are many ex-Jews who feel the same way as yet they wouldn't waste one second of their time commenting on the Haredi world.

You guys wish that you had something to believe in that would give your life meaning. Living with the knowledge that life is purposeless has left a gaping hole in your conscientious and the way you are filling that hole is trying to prove that anyone else that believes in a higher purpose to life is a fake. So every day you jump on these stories and you ignore all of the good that the religious Jewish world does.
There are free loan societies, orphanages, untold charities to help the sick and the poor among us, bikur holim, areivim, Misaskim, and on and on. As a matter of fact my son's Rebbe just donated his kidney to save the life of a Jew he had never met.
My other son is participating in Bike 4 Chai. Last year he raised $4800 and rode 170 miles. The money goes directly to children with cancer.

As I told Jeff that even if I'm wrong I would rather be me than any of you.

[Yochanan Lavie]

As I told Jeff that even if I'm wrong I would rather be me than any of you.

Posted by: mickee | February 25, 2014 at 09:46 AM

I'm glad you are so smug and arrogant. I'd rather be me than you.

[Context]

Ok, so at least on that particular point Shmarya is not being a hypocrite. It would have been a farce to debate the current controversy in Israel with someone whose family are a bunch of draft dodgers. I wonder who among the comments fits that bill.

[mickee]

>>I can just as easily claim (and often do) that the answer is that you suspect Shmarya is correct and it terrifies you, so you try to discredit and invalidate him so as not to have to be confronted with any sort of challenge to your way of life. It's called "denial".

For your information I believe that Shmarya is doing a great service to the Orthodox/Haredi world.

I believe that is was Brandeis who said that " Sunlight is the best disinfectant".

If it were up to me I would make Failed Messiah required reading for every Haredi Jew in the world.

[mickee]

>>What mickee doesn't realize is that there is a diversity here; of opinion, belief, background, and observance."

Of course I realize that there are dramatic differences between the various sects and customs. All I am saying is that to be a Jew you have to believe in Gd.

Atheism by definition is a denial of Judaism. I don't understand how someone can call themselves a Jew and an Atheist at the same time. Don't they see the contradiction?

[Jeff]

"As a matter of fact my son's Rebbe just donated his kidney to save the life of a Jew he had never met."

That, I'm willing to believe, actually. We had a Chabad rabbi here last year who had done the same thing.

"For your information I believe that Shmarya is doing a great service to the Orthodox/Haredi world."

Oh, well then, Shmarya, you come out of this not too badly. It's just the rest of us who are assholes!

[state of disgust]

"Haredi Rabbis Ban All Yeshiva Students From Serving In The IDF Under Any Circumstances"

Being a Citizen in any nation grants those citizens benefits and protections - security, rule of law, etc. - but also requires individuals to assume obligations to that nation - paying taxes, serving in the armed forces when and where necessary, conforming to the rule of law, etc.

If an individual refuses to conform to these rules of membership in the nation, they are not acting as citizens and by their actions, are opting out of citizenship. Israel would be within its rights to refuse these people the right to participate in elections, imprison and/or expel such persons from the country.

Furthermore, those who advocate and influence others to reject the accepted rules of membership in the nation could be found guilty of inciting sedition and thus, be subject to prison, expulsion or both.

[Allan]

@Jeff - “Meanwhile, if you frummies truly believe we're wrong, why do you all come here and post these asinine comments? “Precisely. I was under the impression

that it was forbidden for Torah-true Jews to associate in any way with atheists, “scoffers” or deniers of the Torah’s divine origin.

Psalm 1:1. “Blessed is the one who does not walk in step with the wicked or stand in the way that sinners take or sit in the company of mockers.”

Yet they seem addicted to this site and determined to engage the “heretics” and “former Jews” in debate.

[David Sarna]

Yes, it's true. Lapid, like his father, hates religious Jews. But the so-called Council of Sages hates them even more. Against all settled halacha, they deprive them of as an opportunity to earn a good living, defend their fellow Jews, and so on, all in clear violation of Jewish Law. Not to speak of their repeated violation of the halacha of dina d'malchuta dina.
They do this for the most corrupt and venal of reasons. Making money on the misery of others, and a lust for power.
Calling themselves haredim is an outrage. Chared l'dvar HaShem - the supposed mantra of self-styled charedim - is their last concern. They are - as Rabbi Akiva said, "Charovei karta," (http://parsha.blogspot.com/2004/07/midrash-rabba-eicha-petichata-2.html) the destroyers of Israel. They need to read - probably for the first time - Gittin 55 (http://www.come-and-hear.com/gittin/gittin_55.html).

[Blidar]

See www.dusiznies.blogspot.com
the website shows a letter from Rabbi Shach that in effect says that boys not learning in yeshiva should join the Army

[Jeff]

@David Sarna: Are you David E.Y. Sarna? Thank you for weighing in. It's a honor to have you here.

[jancsibacsi]

mickee--Youre comments show how deluded you are,we comment on people who pretend to be pious but are anything but pious all their toreh learning just led them more astray with using god to inable themselfs,you fail to see the basics here that is we are free to beleive any which way we like and we are not defined by youre interpretation of beleif,you are only using god to knock others here not to elevate god .

[Yochanan Lavie]

Mickee: The Rambam would agree with you, based on the Articles of Faith. However, Jewishness is cultural as well as religious. One can be a cultural Jew and an atheist, because the Jews are an ethnic group. Atheism is not my cup of tea, but I say believe and let live.

[S M L]

YL: Exactly

[David]

+++Posted by: mickee | February 25, 2014 at 08:54 AM+++

mickee, did you copy and paste some of your answer from http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/lady-doth-protest-too-much-methinks or mirror site without acknowledgement?

[mickee]

Yes

[MM]

Re Mickee, 8:54 am: In the (unlikely) event that someone thought that Mickee is a Shakespeare scholar, that comment is an (uncredited) cut-and-paste job, although I would be hardpressed to credit it properly, since it is likewise cut-and-pasted all over the web without attribution. Nonetheless posting this material as if it were one's own (no quotation marks even) is evidence of a certain intellectual dishonesty.

Mickee goes on to say: "All I am saying is that to be a Jew you have to believe in Gd.

Atheism by definition is a denial of Judaism. I don't understand how someone can call themselves a Jew and an Atheist at the same time. Don't they see the contradiction?"

Mickee is not only no Shakespeare scholar, he is also not up on the history of religion. Scholars of the history of religion classify Judaism as an orthopraxy, not an orthodoxy. That is, in Judaism, what you do, how you behave is central, not what you believe. There was no credal statement in Judaism until Maimonides and his thirteen "I believes." As a neo-Aristotelian he, like Aquinas for the Church of Rome and Avicenna and Averrhoes for Islam, set out to categorize and codify Jewish thought as it was prior to him dispersed in many sources. Of course, Maimonides faced opposition in his lifetime and thereafter, and his thirteen principles were at first disputed and then ignored for many centuries. It is only in relatively recent times that they have found acceptance, and only in Orthodox circles are they deemed obligatory.

So, yes, it has always been possible to be a Jew and even to be an observant Jew while having one's doubts about the existence of the God of Moses, even doubts rising to the level of disbelief. Why would one be an observant Jew while not believing in God? There could be many reasons including social pressure/conformity, sense of community, respect for one's parents, tradition, just liking the lifestyle, inertia, and so on. The only people who would find an atheist Jew a contradiction in terms are those who hold that an acceptance of Maimonides' principles is an absolute requirement. But in fact there is no obligation to hold by Maimonides in this regard. He made his list based on his reading and thinking, and while it took centuries, Orthodoxy finally accepted his list. Maimonides did not get his list directly from Mt. Sinai, and other Jews are just as free to make their own lists of what they do and don't believe.

Besides which, Jews are born into a tribe, and like members of any tribe they are free to accept the beliefs, customs and mores of their tribe--or not. If they don't they can be expelled--see Spinoza--but they are still members of the tribe. And the behavior of all of the tribe's members reflect on the tribe as a whole. Thus those of us who are not Orthodox are embarrassed and humiliated and even endangered by the bad behavior of the Chareidim who are the most outwardly identifiable of us all. And we also all suffer from guilt by association from the non-Orthodox malefactors among us, although they may not be so obviously Jewish to the larger world.

[ah-pee-chorus]

MM -

Superb! The last paragraph especially speaks to mickees ignorance.

mickee-

I knew right away that your shakespeare post was copied and found the same source david did. Since I see he already called you out, can you explain why you didn't put it in quotes? And make clear that the words weren't your own? Isn't deception like this covered by the concept of g'neivas da'as?

That's It!!! by denying halacha i hereby expel you from judaism.

[Alter Kocker]

I'm obviously stirring the pot. Here, though, I may be characterized as Mickee put it as a murderous lunatic, but there is a problem here. There is a growing class of people in Israel. I call them the religious class. They are separate from the entire population of Israel save and except for one thing; they live off the avails of secular Israel's tax payments and they live off the avails of the protection afforded them by secular Israel's army.

The council of Torah sages may be ultra-religious rabbis. They may be pious as pious can be. These Torah sages council the religious class to refuse army service. Israel is and has been technically at war for decades. Counselling people to refuse army service is counselling to commit treason. Treason is one of the greatest of all crimes. In any civilized country, treason carries incredibly stiff penalties ranging from life imprisonment to death. In war-time treason usually carries the death penalty. The council of Torah sages would be well advised that if the government of Israel ever changes from their toady Netanyahu to any of the other secular parties they may expect a major sea-change which would include penalties for senior rabbis who counsel to commit treason.

[David]

+++The council of Torah sages may be ultra-religious rabbis. They may be pious as pious can be. These Torah sages council the religious class to refuse army service.

Posted by: Alter Kocker | February 25, 2014 at 03:09 PM+++

Alter, I disagree with your use of the terms "religious" and "pious". They are neither. They are ritualistic following in one form or another some Jewish rituals, and wear uniforms of the upper-class goyim of a mere 200 years ago and follow ideas of certain Jews of that modern era, but that is about as far as their claims to a connection to Judaism go.

[Alter Kocker]

I tend to agree with you on that David, I should have said the council purports to be religious and pious. We know they are nothing of the kind. These "Heilige Rabbis" are snake-oil salesmen. I suggested in an earlier post that the israeli judiciary would be well advised to send a message to the masses that they represent by executing one or more of these so called sages for the crime of treason.

[MM]

Apropos of this discussion here is a piece from today's NYTimes: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/25/arguments-against-god/?ref=opinion

Here is an excerpt that will (or should) sound familiar:

"It is disrespectful, moreover, to insist that someone else’s belief has some hidden psychological cause, rather than a justifying reason, behind it. As a “lapsed Catholic,” I’ve gotten a fair amount of this sort of thing myself: I’ve been told — sometimes by people who’ve just met me or who have never met me at all but found out my email address — that I “only” gave up my faith because (a) the nuns were too strict, (b) I wanted to have sex or (c) I was too lazy to get up on Sundays to go to church."

It has been said that great minds think alike. Apparently small one do too.

The piece goes on to make the distinction between morality and religion which some folks around here don't seem to grasp.

[ira]

@jeff

Your comment about Schachter and tefillin is incredible, because this is EXACTLY what the Shomer Emunim Rebbe (Rav Ahrele, the original founder of the Toldos Aharon and Toldos Avrahom Yitzhak dynasties) said !

He said, 'Thank G_d the Zionists didn't require us to put on tefillin, because then it would be forbidden to do so !'

[Yochanan Lavie]

Ira: Zionists breathe, ergo it is forbidden to breathe.

[Jeff]

Amazing.

Someone should point out to them that Zionists have sex. That would be one way of handling the overbreeding problem.