Senior Zionist Orthodox Rabbi Rules Women Cannot Serve In IDF Because Guns Are Male-Only Attire

Earlier this week, the Zionist Orthodox Chief Rabbi of Ramat Gan Yaakov Ariel ruled – again – that women cannot serve in the IDF. In part, Ariel based his new ruling on his belief that a gun is specifically male-only attire. Women carrying guns therefore violates the Torah commandment that forbids women from wearing men’s clothes and ornaments, Ariel said, and this in part prohibits women from serving in the military.

Rabbi Ya'akov Ariel

Senior Zionist Orthodox Rabbi Rules Women Cannot Serve In The IDF Because Guns Are Male-Only Attire
Shmarya Rosenberg • FailedMessiah.com

Earlier this week, the Zionist Orthodox Chief Rabbi of Ramat Gan Ya'akov Ariel reportedly ruled – again – that women cannot serve in the IDF.

In part, Ariel based his new ruling on his belief that a gun is specifically male-only attire. Women carrying guns therefore violates the Torah commandment that forbids women from wearing men’s clothes and ornaments, Ariel said, and this in part prohibits women from serving in the military.

Men and women also may not serve together in combat, Ariel said, because doing so creates both issues of immorality and security problems.

Ariel added that a woman serving as a commander over men presents even more halakhic problems – including modesty and morality issues.

Ariel also reportedly insisted that the IDF does not need women soldiers to serve in any capacity. Women who insist on serving should instead serve outside the IDF in civilian roles with proper religious supervision, Ariel insisted.

Two weeks ago, Ariel ruled that Orthodox synagogues that allow women to give divrei Torah (brief Torah lectures) to mixed groups of men and women during the Sabbath prayer services are heretical and must be boycotted.

Ariel is the former president of the moderate Zionist Orthodox Tzohar rabbinical organization.

Comments

[David]

I (and others) keep saying it. Just when you think they can't come up with anything more bizarre, they manage to outdo themselves.

Doesn't this clown get it? Israel is surrounded by vicious enemies who want to destroy Israel and all Jews who live there.This is not just theoretical but a very real threat and Israel needs every able-bodied person including women, to defend her.

How DARE he make comments like this when he and his sheep are not prepared to work, educate their children or fight and make other Israelis work hard to support their parasitic lifestyle.

[jancsibacsi]

I would like to know what took him so long to come up with this theory,can it be that he was learning toireh day and night and he got this revelation after so many generation of top rebbis never thought of this wow he must of had a eurika experience,what a putz he is.

[Yochanan Lavie]

If a gun is male attire, then I will parade around Times Sq. wearing nothing but a holster belt and a gun. I'm sure that will go over real well. (You've been warned...)- humor.

[shari]

I've never wanted to own a gun . . . until I heard these words.

[rebitzman - $101 to read my posts]

@YL

Pretty sure the naked cowboy already has laid claim to that turf.........

As to the rabbi, as they say down south - bless his heart.

[Frum but normal]

Actually this is not something that he came up with,this reasoning why a woman should not handle weapons is from the talmud,
Shmaryah,I was under the impression you that you are a Talmud Chacham,but I guess I was mistaken

[Yochanan Lavie]

FBN: Maybe the talmud says something against women carrying weapons, but a gun is not a "beged" so the reasoning is spurious. Besides, national defense is arguably pikuach nefesh, which trumps any talmudic concern, as far as I know.

[Shmarya Rosenberg]

FbN –

You are an ignoramus.

If I remember correctly, the gemara is talking about wearing a sword on Shabbos. Is it carrying?

It rules that it is not **even when there is no direct defense need at that moment.**

Why?

Because, for a soldier, a sword is like a regularly worn ornament – the same reasoning that allows women to wear jewelry.

All of these things are situational. For example, if women were no longer accustomed to wearing jewelry, wearing jewelry on Shabbat outside an eruv would a priori be carrying.

In the same way, the clothes, jewelry or ornaments involved are male, female or unisex based on common usage today – not on what was common usage 1,500 to 1,800 years ago.

You are truly one of the dumbest people I've ever dealt with.

[Frum but normal]

Yochanan,the talmud does give this reasoning,
if you would look up the TARGUM on the verse of "LO SILVASH ISHA GEVER ISH"the targum quotes the prohibition is for a woman to carry weapons,as for you argument that it is not a begged,the idea of this prohibition is for a woman not to behave like a man,LO SILBASH is merely an example,as a matter of fact,the prohibition of a man not coloring his hair,is from the same lo silbash.
as for PIKUACH NEFESH,that is a complete separate issue,i am not a halachik authority
and you might me right

[adam6275]

I don't think women should be in combat for many reason as every second matters and men themselves would favor a woman over helping a man but this reason is just absurd beyond words but Rabbis like all male organized religious leaders always hide behind some crazy idea that if you criticize well you are a bigot you see. I certainly think a woman should be able to defend herself if no man is around. I wait for the day where we have a Temple which is done by a Cohen and most Rabbis would then be out of a job which they have to hold on to nonsense and silly things so people don't realize they couldn't care less about their own people because a truly strong Jewish people would realize their job is a product of us imitating male religious leaders of other faiths.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

Senior Zionist Orthodox Rabbi Rules Women Cannot Serve In The IDF Because Guns Are Male-Only Attire

euh heu! me thinks them devorah, yael und Judith were probably neither Zionist orthodox, nor excessively tznius-dick!
having even being commanders. omg! omg!

[Frum but normal]

Shmaryah,see what i just posted to Yochanan Levy,now go and look up the TARGUM on the posuk of LO SILVASH, (if you have a chumash in your basement)and come back and admit to everyone that you were wrong,
not holding my breath

[Yosef ben Matitya]

Yochanan Lavie | December 10, 2013 at 06:13 PM
Reb YL,
- without agreeing with r' Ariel, the chumash doesn't only prohibit begged, but also 'keli' -utensil, instrument- sheneymor:
debarim 22:5
כב,ה לֹא-יִהְיֶה כְלִי-גֶבֶר עַל-אִשָּׁה, וְלֹא-יִלְבַּשׁ גֶּבֶר שִׂמְלַת אִשָּׁה: כִּי תוֹעֲבַת יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, כָּל-עֹשֵׂה אֵלֶּה. {פ}
to complicate matters further, Onkelos translates:
לָא יְהֵי תִּקּוּן זֵין דִּגְבַר עַל אִתָּא, וְלָא יִתַּקַּן גְּבַר בְּתִקּוּנֵי אִתָּא: אֲרֵי מְרַחַק קֳדָם יְיָ אֱלָהָךְ, כָּל עָבֵיד אִלֵּין. {פ}

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

Good lord.

The fact that is even is a matter for debate shows the intellectual bankruptcy- but more importantly- the general irrelevance of the frum/haredi/hasidic way of thinking in the year 2013.

The Torah was written several thousand (or hundred) years ago? I don't think 1) Israel was a nation then, and 2) I do think gender roles were pretty well-defined.

Nowadays, we have women (yes, women!) serving as Prime Ministers, Senators, Supreme Court Justices (and two of the three female Supreme Court Justices are Jewish- just SHOCKING what a Jewish woman can accomplish with an education) and leaders in business, industry, and the professions.

And of course, hasidim/haredim can't wrap their heads around that, because hasidim/haredim live in the 18/19th Century.

Overgrown children who live in a world of make-believe. That's what they are.

Now, as far as the State of Israel is concerned- the haredim/hasidim can't wrap their heads around this either, but that woman with a Kalashnikov Assault Rifle (or an Uzi submachine gun) - and who is trained on how to use it- is part of the IDF- and the IDF is the only thing standing between the Israeli Haredim/Hasidim (and the rest of Israel) and extermination.

(Of course, the Haredim/Hasidim insist "Hashem will protect us"- like Hashem protected six million Jews during World War Two. That worked out real well, didn't it?)

Children. Overgrown children living an a world of make-believe and fantasy. It would be hilarious if it was not so pathetic.

[Reese]

Perhaps the good rabbi is more comfortable with the images we have all seen of that tragic past with Jewish women forced to the ground with a rifle pointed to their heads.

I am more comfortable seeing proud Jewish woman carrying guns and when needed shooting our enemies with them.

[harold]

I said it once and I'll say it again. The IDF should not take Haredim. They don't want to hear women sing. They don't want women to instruct them. They don't want women on their base. Now they won't want women to carry weapons. You can bet if the IDF gets into a shooting war, they won't want female nurses or doctors anywhere near them.

Why should the IDF accommodate these people? No one else gets any accommodations. Why upset unit cohesion and morale for the Haredim? The IDF has more important things to do.

If the Haredim want to serve in the IDF, they must obey the rules and regulations same as every one else. If they can't, they can do alternative service or better leave the country.

[harold]

"better leave the country" s/b "better yet leave the country"

[David]

This is sure to upset frumma so if you are one, please don't watch. For everyone else, enjoy. "Girls of the Israeli Military".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1yrn51Vel4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks for the responses.

[jancsibacsi]

Robert J. Barron,-- Attorney-at-Law Children. Overgrown children living an a world of make-believe and fantasy.
The perfect description of the hasidim/hareidim.

[Friar Yid]

Ariel based his new ruling on his belief that a gun is specifically male-only attire.

Judging from the kind of illustrious rabbinical statements we hear this day, I'm beginning to wonder if brains are specifically female-only attire.

[Steven W]

But at least they can wear wristwatches.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@Jancsibacsi- TY for the compliment.

What is so difficult for me is that these are our brothers and sisters- and to see them voluntarily embrace both ignorance and poverty is nothing less than heartbreaking.

[Isa]

One can purchase pistols that are colored pink

[rocky]

Israel's theocracy will be its undoing. What a pity.

[jancsibacsi]

Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law--I can see why you are an attorney youre words are brillinat i think you know me i was born in europe and my english is not as good as someone who was born here, i envy those who can express themselfs so eloquently like you,i came from a town near stamer and we were taught in cheder hassidish but we attendet public school for math and other subjects at a young age i saw who they were even though the only hassid in our town was the shohet our rebbe beat us they are violent besides how you describe them just like spoiled children who go crazy when they dont get their way it is very very sad to see this kind of behaviour among our own correligionists

[jancsibacsi]

Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law---Sorry for misspelling , satmer and brilliant.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

I am very disturbed and upset that there is no song parody from either YL or Sarek on this... especially considering the rich possibilities from the gun songbook:
Zevon: "Rabbis, Guns, and Money"
Hendrix: "Hey, Judith, Where You Goin' with that Gun in Your Hand?"
Skynyrd: "Shabbot Night Special" (two rabbis come a creepin', like a black hat do..."
Beatles: and there has to be something you can do with Happiness Is a Warm Gun, no? ("bang bang, Jew Jew...") or Bungalow Bill or Rocky Raccoon?

[Atheodox Jew]

Clearly R. Ariel didn't grow up watching Charlie's Angels.

[Barry]

The verse in Deuteronomy 22:5

לֹא יִהְיֶה כְלִי גֶבֶר עַל אִשָּׁה וְלֹא יִלְבַּשׁ גֶּבֶר שִׂמְלַת אִשָּׁה כִּי תוֹעֲבַת יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ כָּל עֹשֵׂה אֵלֶּה:

presents some difficulties

1. It's placement. The proceeding verse speaks about helping your neighbor's overloaded donkey and the next verse about sending away a mother bird from its nest when harvesting eggs, so it seems a bit incongruous to include that prohibition in that place rather than the with other sexual prohibitions

2. The prohibition is ordered primarly against women and then to men which is itself unusual. It's breach is described as a 'To'eva' which seems to extreme to apply to mere cross dressing or a woman carrying a sword.

3. The exact translation of the first part of the verse is 'there shall not be on a woman a vessel of manliness'. If a weapon is meant then why not expressly refer to it?

I have always suspected that 'vessel of manliness' refers to a phallus and the prohibition may refer to some pagan cultic sex reversal ritual which involved a woman donning a phallus and armor as happens in Borough Park's Zumba classes.

[Jeff]

"I have always suspected that 'vessel of manliness' refers to a phallus and the prohibition may refer to some pagan cultic sex reversal ritual"

Barry, as I'm sure you know, the arguments employed by those on the far left fringe of Orthodoxy regarding the Levitical prohibition against male homoerotic behavior are similar. Of course, I doubt this rabbi would be interested in them.

[Jeff]

"What is so difficult for me is that these are our brothers and sisters- and to see them voluntarily embrace both ignorance and poverty is nothing less than heartbreaking."

I no longer regard them that way, Robert. They've separated themselves from the rest of the Jewish people, and they've done it with a tremendous amount of drama and acrimony.

I say, "B'bye!"

(And jansci, don't worry about your English; we always understand you just fine. The only people here who ever complain about it aren't worth paying attention to.)

[Sarek]

Torah clearly says that military assault rifles are male attire. You did not see women with rifles serving in the armies of King David.

But I think that women with small derringers did exist in the time of the 2nd temple.

I guess this rabbi considers rifles as phallic symbols. I wonder if women would be allowed to use the new sonic weapons that have circular speakers?

[jancsibacsi]

Sarek--The only phallic symbol that i see is the payes hanging down like you know what.

[Barry]

The prohibition may also relate to sexual humiliation.

If for example, I was told that a film was to be made about me, I would accept say Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp or even Kevin Bacon playing as me. It would however be completely humiliating for me if I was told that Angelina Jolie in drag with a dildo stuffed down her pants and with her breasts bound up would be doing so.

That is what a Kollel Yungerleit feels whenever an female IDF soldier walks past him. HG no doubts feels sexually humiliated as she is demonstrably more of a man than he is (carrying out the foremost duty which is expected of men and which he so cowardly avoids) and their opposition to these women arises out of their feelings of being effeminate, weak and unmanly.

[anuran]

Guns are not ornaments. They are tools.
Guns are not jewelry. They are tools.
Guns are not clothing. They are tools.
Rabbi is not wise. He is a tool.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney-at-Law]

@Jancsi- TY for your kind comments. No need for you to apologize for your English- you contribute much to our discussions, and we are all glad you are here.

@Barry- the theme of sexual humiliation is ...interesting.

Maybe that is in fact what a Kollel Yungerleit feels whenever a female IDF Soldier walks past him...brandishing her Kalashnikov Assault Rifle, or her Uzi Sub-machine gun...and she's been trained to use both. Then again, their worldview and way
of life is so foreign to me that I really have no idea what they are thinking.

@Jeff- I understand exactly what you are saying- but it's still heartbreaking to me.
I suppose I may not have been able (or am able) to emotionally distance myself the way you apparently have. Actually, I suppose at one point, someone must emotionally distance themselves; otherwise the heartbreak simply continues.

But it has been = and continues to be heatbreaking, especially since some members of my immediate family chose the frum lifestyle- and it lead them directly to the ignorance and poverty that has been so difficult for me to witness. But they seem to love their lives and the fantasy world in which they live.

[Jeff]

Indeed, I think Barry's insight is on the money.

"But they seem to love their lives and the fantasy world in which they live."

This is where society needs to step in. It is a form of child abuse and can no longer be allowed to continue. of course, gutless pols both here and in Israel will do little-to-nothing while they continue to vote in blocs for whomever their overlords tell them to.

[Diane Polonsky]

We definitely need more informed Rabbi's when it comes to guns and protection. Some Rabbi's simply ignore the dangers, as they have especially in Los Angeles - Diane Polonsky