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November 29, 2013

Not Sucking Baby's Penis After Removing Foreskin Is Heresy, Haredi Rabbi Says

Rabbi Moshe MeiselmanAccording to Rabbi Moshe Meiselman…whenever Chazal make a statement about realia, and do not indicate that they are speaking tentatively, then they are correct, and to doubt them is heresy. Rabbi Meiselman thus states, with regard to metzitzah [b'peh, the direct mouth-to-penis sucking haredi mohels do after cutting off the baby's foreskin] (pp. 239-40), that "Chazal's assessment overrides that of modern medicine," because "Chazal understood the situation better than the physicians." He stresses that "we rely upon their judgment unswervingly, even if medical opinion says otherwise.…[Therefore,] the mohel must suction the wound in a traditionally prescribed manner [with his mouth]."

  Rabbi Moshe Meiselman

Rabbi Moshe Meiselman

Last updated at 12:51 pm CST

Rabbi Natan Slifkin writes:

According to Rabbi Moshe Meiselman, in Torah, Chazal and Science, whenever Chazal make a statement about realia, and do not indicate that they are speaking tentatively, then they are correct, and to doubt them is heresy. Rabbi Meiselman thus states, with regard to metzitzah [b'peh, the direct mouth-to-penis sucking haredi mohels do after cutting off the baby's foreskin] (pp. 239-40), that "Chazal's assessment overrides that of modern medicine," because "Chazal understood the situation better than the physicians." He stresses that "we rely upon their judgment unswervingly, even if medical opinion says otherwise."

Following from this, Rabbi Meiselman states that "the mohel must suction the wound in a traditionally prescribed manner." Now, this could only mean that the mohel must suction the wound with his mouth. It is exceedingly strange, though, that Rabbi Meiselman avoids using the word "mouth" in this entire discussion. What is the reason for this? I'm not sure. Perhaps it is politically inexpedient for him to explicitly insist on metitzah b'peh, in the light of all the scandal revolving around the infant illness that it is has caused. Perhaps Rabbi Meiselman is trying to leave himself wiggle room to claim that he is not insisting on metzitzah b'peh but only on metzizah. But his meaning is clear. First, there is the context of the entire discussion - the entire controversy revolves around doing it with the mouth. Second, every reader will assume and understand that this is the intent - if he did not mean metzitzah b'peh, he would have to say so. Third, the phrase "traditionally prescribed manner" does not leave any room for doubt regarding his intentions.

In any case, while Rabbi Meiselman's views on this topic will be anathema to those who accept contemporary medical science and reject his extreme view regarding Chazal's authority, at least it is consistent with his overall approach. One cannot fault him for inconsistency.

Except that one can.

Dr. Shlomo Sprecher pointed out to me that Rabbi Meiselman is in fact revealing a fundamental problem here. Throughout the book, Rabbi Meiselman makes reference to "mori v'rebbi," his uncle and alleged mentor Rav Yosef B. Soloveitchik. A review of the book that appears in The Jewish Press claims that Rabbi Meiselman "had unlimited access to his uncle and rebbe, Rav Yosef Dov HaLevi Soloveitchik, zt”l, who guided him in attaining a profound, thorough and Torah-true perspective on this topic." But Rav Soloveitchik had a very different approach to metzitzah b'peh.…

Slifkin goes on write what is well known and has been reported here previously – Soloveitchik opposed metzitzah b'peh as did his father, Rabbi Moshe Soloveitchik.

And so, of course, did the vast majority of haredi and Orthodox rabbis in Lithuania.

But what is most notable here (besides Meiselman's dishonesty) are two things.

First, a significant number of Yeshiva University students spend a year abroad studying in Meiselman's yeshiva in Israel and Meiselman used to the principal of Yeshiva University High Schools of Los Angeles.

The second is that Meiselman claims that anytime a rabbi of the Talmudic era said anything definitive about the physical world, science or medicine and the Talmud does not contradict him, that opinion is the truth and has to be followed because "Chazal understood the situation better than the physicians." And Meiselman says this about metzitzah b'peh – despite the well-documented deaths, injuries and maiming that have killed and sickened so many babies.

Meiselman is a fool.

Despite that very evident fact, YU students and other Americans will stream to learn from him next year just as they have this year and so many years before this. He is, after all, a "great" rabbi.

Related Posts:

1. History Of Metzitzah B'Peh.

2. History Of Disease Transmission And Death From Metzitzah B'Peh.

3. All Metzitzah B'Peh Posts.

[Hat Tip: Yochanan Lavie.]

Comments

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The caveman speaking like he is god,this anthropod of a rabbi would be better of keeping his mouth shut.

Metzitzah b'peh can be done safely. You put a pipette between the mohel's mouth and the baby's incision and apply oral suction. Metzitzah gets done, the mohel never touchs his lips to the penis.

This is what happens when you raise sheep and then try to delegate the running of the flock of one the sheep. Sheep to shepherd is not a natural path of promotion.

It is not so much his position on the matter to which I object as the reasoning behind it. We cannot consider the obvious practical problems with a solution that was established on premises that have since been shown to be incorrect. Even though they told us it was based a practical situation, we cannot question the conclusion that they came to. Very dangerous logic indeed. Look at it this way:
We must bleed patients by cutting their arteries with knives of vintage 1600. Even though we know now that such operations are dangerous, and we know that the four humors logic on which it is based is false, and we have real solutions based on Germ Theory, we must continue to bleed patients because who are we to question the leaders of the past? Yikes.

And the jackass Padwa criticizes and looks down on the "reform" Jews. What an idolatrous sham religion this "Orthodox" Judaism is.

"Metzitzah b'peh can be done safely. You put a pipette between the mohel's mouth and the baby's incision and apply oral suction. Metzitzah gets done, the mohel never touchs his lips to the penis."

Ah, but then there's a chatzitzah in the metzitzah!

Unbelievable that this guy was the first principal of the high school where we sent our son.

Next up: the sacramentalization of adult fellatio.

I don't understand the last paragraph. He didn't marry into the family his mother was the Rav's sister. Shulamis Meiselman. Leaving aside his position lets get the facts right.

How is blind adherence, veneration, and suggesting the infallibility of Chazal not heretical in and of itself?

Forgot to write this caveman rabbi looks to me that he sucks his own penis.

Another excellent illustration of the Haredization of Modern Orthodoxy.

The tone of this article and the comments are embarrassing with total disregard for Daas Torah and maybe an authority that is more learned than the commentators here.

Bottom line: Did anyone have the decency to call Rav Meiselman to clarify his opinion on metzizah b'peh so he can be quoted verbatim without bias opinions???

Regardless, the lack of civility is astounding and more reflective of the short-comings of the commentators here.

Benjy ---If you dont like the way rebbes are treated here dont come here its that simple,who are you to judge us .

He ***W-R-O-T-E*** his opinion in a book, Benjy.

It is hardly necessary to call him up and ask him what it is.

"with total disregard for Daas Torah"

Yes, and we make no apology for it.

Thanks "Rabbi" for again making Jews the laughing stock of the civilized world.

Benjy-

what he said is laughably embarrassing. daas torah is a recent invention and SHOULD be disregarded. what he may have spent more time studying to become 'more learned in' he obviously doesnt even understand. shmarya answered the next point and lastly meiselman's lack of civility to those rabbis he disagrees with is whats astounding.

Besides being a moral midget, this "rabbi's" comments are part of a bigger problem of cowardly refusing to address *any* issues directly. He is clothed in the falsehood of endless pilpel - sophistry which drifts ever further from the truth. In another twist of hypocrisy, these rabbis tend to go to the best rated doctors for personal medical problems (these choices are not based on the religious level of the doctors) - thus, truth trumps "daas Torah" once again. Unfortunately, I once approached one of the more "modern" poskim about a medical halakhic issue, and the answer received was based more on the community $tatus of the doctor, and less upon rational methods of inquiry, scientific truths, or any manner of social justice.

The frumma are obsessed with sucking penises.

I always get a chuckle when WSC chimes in on the frumma's penis sucking ritual!

but, and I'm serious here, the second commenter made a good point about the pipette. and I've made it here too. why ISN'T that a total solution to the "religious" issue about whether to suck or not to suck.

if in the presence of an acceptable solution the mohel insists he must be allowed to put his mouth directly on the baby's dick, then WSC clearly has a point...

i'm looking at his pic.
he looks very clever.
but i think he needs to relax

Shmaryah,as usual you are lying again and you know it,i have just finished reading his book, yes,he insist's that metzitza must be done,even though the medical profession insist it has no medical value, we still have to do it because CHAZAL insisted that leaving blood after the circumcision would be a health hazard,but nowhere does rabbi Meiselman write that the metzizah must be done by direct mouth to penis suction,of course it could be done via an instrument as is being done by the vast majority of orthodox jews who are not chasidic, i think your mistake is by confusing the meaning of metzitza'.
metzitzah is draining out the blood from the tip of the penis,now this can be done either by mouth as was done hundreds of years ago when these sucking instruments were not available, or it could be done by direct mouth contact,
what Meiselman is insisting on is just that metzitzah must be done,but nowhere dopes he state that it should be done with direct mouth contact,
as a matter of fact his uncle and mentor (whom he quotes extensively in the book)
rabbi J.B Slolveichik',whenever he attended and officiated at a bris,he made sure that the metzitzah was done with an instrument and not the mouth

It's a shame some circumcisions transmit herpes from mohel to infant.

But EVERY circumcision alters sex dramatically. Forced genital cutting is patently unethical.

oops,should have read, "metzitzah is draining out the blood from the tip of the penis,now this can be done either by mouth as was done hundreds of years ago when these sucking instruments were not available, or it could be done by a instrument

The rabbi thinks too much about his penis.

++ Eli, what me messiah? | November 30, 2013 at 05:52 PM++

Eli, the black hat and beard club have already clearly stated on previous occasions that they do not accept the pipette method, as stated by Outcast Yid:
Outcast Yid | November 29, 2013 at 12:04 PM

They will not allow anything that comes between their mouth and the penis. They see such an 'interposition' (chatzitzah) as compromising the observance.

When you're dealing with extreme religion, this are the kind of logic you encounter.

It's all about maintaining control over their sheeple, and keeping themselves in power. Any compromise, no matter how logical, even if it could be religiously permitted, erodes their power. Such a compromise means that maybe the rabbis were just a tiny bit wrong, and that cannot be allowed, because then everything is open to discussion, negotiation and compromise.
It reminds me a little bit of the NRA leadership. The slightest mention of any gun control law sends them into apoplectic fits, and I can understand the logic, thanks to the frumma. Any compromise whatsoever, no matter how logical, permissible, even necessary for health and safety, causes a breach in the power of the leadership. That cannot be allowed under any circumstances, even if there are occasional disasters as a result.

WSC, seems like jancsibacsi is obssessed.

Benj, free your mind from the control of your Daas Torah heroes. Their only motives are power and wealth, and both of those come from innocent foolish sheep like you.

Free your mind, and the rest will follow.

BTW, Jancsi's wisdom, courage and life experience are things you will never be able to approach.

Benjy -I want to ask you this,did you ever go through a traumatic experience in youre life,or someone close to you went through a traumatic experience, can you also tell me with what i am obssessed?i come here on fm because i want to educated some people who are oblivious of their own religious peoples repugnant behavior.

Christianity speaks of the Blood of Christ and gets mocked but sucking the blood from the penis of a baby is venerated -and where is the fantasy land.

Jancsi, I have noticed over the years here on FM that the frumma who try to defend all the stupid beliefs and behaviors are usually young guys with no real life experiences.
They are pumped full of baloney by their rebbes, who tell them that there is only one way to be a Jew, and it's their way or the highway.

And so, they cannot understand why you or me don't eat traif, or why we go to shul, etc. They are so confused. In their world, disagreement is prohibited. People who dare to question the beliefs are told to shut up, or else. Then they come here and they cannot deal with seeing Free Speech in action. They are again so confused when they see FM.

Shmaryah,as usual you are lying again and you know it,i have just finished reading his book, yes,he insist's that metzitza must be done,even though the medical profession insist it has no medical value, we still have to do it because CHAZAL insisted that leaving blood after the circumcision would be a health hazard,but nowhere does rabbi Meiselman write that the metzizah must be done by direct mouth to penis suction,of course it could be done via an instrument as is being done by the vast majority of orthodox jews who are not chasidic, i think your mistake is by confusing the meaning of metzitza'.
metzitzah is draining out the blood from the tip of the penis,now this can be done either by mouth as was done hundreds of years ago when these sucking instruments were not available, or it could be done with an insrument
what Meiselman is insisting on is just that metzitzah must be done,but nowhere dopes he state that it should be done with direct mouth contact,
as a matter of fact his uncle and mentor (whom he quotes extensively in the book)
rabbi J.B Slolveichik',whenever he attended and officiated at a bris,he made sure that the metzitzah was done with an instrument and not the mouth

Posted by: Frum but normal | December 01, 2013 at 05:00 PM

Maybe you need some remedial schooling. Learn to read more carefully. Will typing slowly help you process? Shmarya. quoted. Rabbi. Slifkin. He. linked. to. Rabbi . Slifkin's. Article.
Slifkin. is. likely. to. be. a. far. more. reliable. source.than. you.

Got it now?

Posted by: Benjy | November 29, 2013 at 01:38 PM

Any rabbi who suggests that chazal's assessment overrides minder medicine is an ignorant, dangerous cult leader. He doesn't deserver respect or admiration. He deserves to be widely ignored.

Anyone who offers the "Daas Torah" refutation to factual medical evidence is a fool.

"minder" should read "modern" spellcheck error.

SkepticalYid
are you for real? Slifkin himself writes that Meiselman himself carefully avoided writing that metzizah should be Bpeh (with direct mouth contact)but just wrote "you need metzitza",how do you guys have the nerve to misquote someone and insist that he meant metzitza with the mouth when he absolutely went out of his way not to mention it,Shmaryah himself knows pretty well that Meiselman's uncle and mentor rabbi J.B Soloveichik always insisted that a instrument be used for metzitzah,But of course for this low life jew hating Shmaryah,when it comes to bashing chareidim,truth and actual fact's never play a role

Posted by: Frum but normal | December 01, 2013 at 05:40 PM


Straight from Slifkin:
"Following from this, Rabbi Meiselman states that "the mohel must suction the wound in a traditionally prescribed manner." Now, this could only mean that the mohel must suction the wound with his mouth. It is exceedingly strange, though, that Rabbi Meiselman avoids using the word "mouth" in this entire discussion. What is the reason for this? I'm not sure. Perhaps it is politically inexpedient for him to explicitly insist on metitzah b'peh, in the light of all the scandal revolving around the infant illness that it is has caused. Perhaps Rabbi Meiselman is trying to leave himself wiggle room to claim that he is not insisting on metzitzah b'peh but only on metzizah. But his meaning is clear. First, there is the context of the entire discussion - the entire controversy revolves around doing it with the mouth. Second, every reader will assume and understand that this is the intent - if he did not mean metzitzah b'peh, he would have to say so. Third, the phrase "traditionally prescribed manner" does not leave any room for doubt regarding his intentions."

Apparently you're the lying scumbag.

You are as always an ass and a moron.

Process, you cretinous little man.

1. I quote Rabbi Natan Slifkin, so ***I*** cannot be "lying."

2. Slifkin writes: " Rabbi Meiselman thus states, with regard to metzitzah [b'peh, the direct mouth-to-penis sucking haredi mohels do after cutting off the baby's foreskin] (pp. 239-40), that "Chazal's assessment overrides that of modern medicine," because 'Chazal understood the situation better than the physicians.' He stresses that "we rely upon their judgment unswervingly, even if medical opinion says otherwise."

Following from this, Rabbi Meiselman states that 'the mohel must suction the wound in a traditionally prescribed manner.' Now, this could only mean that the mohel must suction the wound with his mouth. It is exceedingly strange, though, that Rabbi Meiselman avoids using the word 'mouth' in this entire discussion. What is the reason for this? I'm not sure. Perhaps it is politically inexpedient for him to explicitly insist on metitzah b'peh, in the light of all the scandal revolving around the infant illness that it is has caused. Perhaps Rabbi Meiselman is trying to leave himself wiggle room to claim that he is not insisting on metzitzah b'peh but only on metzizah. But his meaning is clear. First, there is the context of the entire discussion - the entire controversy revolves around doing it with the mouth. Second, every reader will assume and understand that this is the intent - if he did not mean metzitzah b'peh, he would have to say so. Third, the phrase 'traditionally prescribed manner' does not leave any room for doubt regarding his intentions.…"

3. You are a cretinous, evil, disgusting creature, too stupid, too arrogant and too blind to realize how totally horrid you really are. Rot in hell.

Shmaryah,why are you hiding behind slifkin's skirt? we are not discussing here Slifkin's opinions,we are discussing what Meiselman actually wrote,and as you quote him he wrote"
'the mohel must suction the wound in a traditionally prescribed manner.' Now if you wouldn't be so dumb and an arrogant SOB,you would now or find out by asking,that in Lithuania where Meiselmans family hails from, for the last 150 years even the most chareidi jews used instruments for metzitza,even the uber chareidi zealot,rabbi Chaim Soloveichik insisted on using an instrument for metztzah.
Rabbi Meiselman's only objection was with some modern orthodox rabbonim like slifkin,who insist that metzitzah can be done away with and it does not have to be done at all,Shmaryah you are not a stupid person,and i am sure you realize this yourself that this is exactly what Meiselman had in mind,you are only an evil jew hating nazi swine,sitting all day long in your mothers dark dingy smelly basement digging up dirt on your fellow jews,get a life go and do something usefull in your life,like getting a job

the idiots argue it is ok to suck a penis of a newborn -can you 18 yo sister suck mine?

Arguing with these brainwashed fanatics is pointless. I can understand the reason Shmarya permits them to comment here - their mere existence illustrates the mindset he is working to overcome - but I think we should take to heart the advice universally given online: Don't feed the trolls.


Early man believed that nothing good in life was free, a god or goddess had always to be paid for beneficence, present and future. A man's sexual prowess was viewed as a gift from the god of fertility, and to maintain virility he felt compelled to sacrifice a small part of the instrument of propagation, the smallest part possible. The excess skin at the tip of the penis seemed a fair payment.

Hence, ritual circumcision originated as a symbolic offering of the entire male member. Among all ancient societies that practiced the surgery, the excised foreskin was dedicated to the fertility deity and sacrificially burned. Egyptian writings and drawings from 5000 BC attest to this custom, as do primitive tribal practices in which boys were circumcised not at birth when they were sexually immature, but at the onset of puberty, or just prior to first intercourse. In Hebrew and Arabic the term for bridegroom, chatan, derived from the ancient expression "one who is circumcised". For centuries the practice belonged to the sacred initiation rites of manhood and marriage. Circumcision was the fee man paid up front (so to speak) for life long reproductive license.


http://foreskin-restoration.net/forum/showthread.php?p=110106


A wash cloth before and after sex or a clean mouth are equally effective and leave the pleasure zones intact! Or castration! That would eliminate any kind of danger from that source!

http://www.circumcisioncomplex.com/fundamentals/

http://eewiki.newint.org/index.php/Is_male_circumcisionyou%3F_bad_for_

http://academia.edu/1403058/Circumcision_Sabbath_Food_and_Purification_Rites_in_Early_Judaism

http://analytic-comments.blogspot.com/2012/08/psychotherapeutenyahoogroupsde.html

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2431-13-136.pdf

http://analytic-comments.blogspot.com/2012/11/offener-brief-den-juedischen-zentral.html

Making it a taboo to compare male with female sexual mutilation is the biggest scandal of the controversy. In both instances the most sensitive and most erogenous zone of the human body is amputated and severely damaged. In both instances, what counts primarily is the cutting of human sexuality. The imposition of control by the patriarchy. A good look at a book on embryology will show the development of the nerves and tissue and how they are the same.

What is lacking in all the talk about circumcision is discussion of its archeological dimension - that it is the left over of human sacrifice. What kind of god is it that demands that of an infant? If the Bris constitutes the identity of the male, what about the identity of a Jewish girl? Or is this an entirely homosexual ceremony?

http://analytic-comments.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-circumcision-debate-links-and.html

http://analytic-comments.blogspot.com/2012/10/michael-wolffsohns-foreskin-of-heart.html

Also, unfortunately it is / has been circumcision that has MADE for no end of anti-semitic sentiments. Freud found that it was the chief reason for unconscious anti-Semitism. And the myths surrounding it are at the core of the “blood libel.” Thus, it's time to eliminate the Brit Milah because if that is the chief reason for being anti-Semitic or anti-Abrahamic [Islam too practices the rite] then why hang on to this left-over of human sacrifice? that traumatizes the child, cutting off 5,000 nerves, that is the equivalent of female circumcision in the sense that it eliminates everything but the clitoris,and only serves the Ultra Orthodox to maintain their power? After all, reform Judaism sought to eliminate the rite in the 19th century, and Jewish identity depends on being born by a Jewish mother, or converting. Here a link to an archive of the entire German and then some debate, note especially Michael Wolffsohn's two pieces . Circumcision has been controversial also within Jewry forever.

http://www.facebook.com/mike.roloff1?ref=name

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