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August 26, 2013


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I think you should cease referencing sleeping with black men to make a point.


i think what i wrote went completely over your head


exercise? omg


It's a shame, there are some very good people overall, mostly they fight if they do amongst themselves I have seen this, So it's not a simple issue and Israel cannot sustain more than the current amt. of people. But they should allow some to stay imo.


And yeah, what if one of those thirty year old black men picked for your exercise is God?


If you prefer focus on the latter, the most successful way is to forbear entirely from stating the former.



i would prefer you focus on could this be a test from g-d
you never know...
what if one of them is the moshiach?
you never know....
they did arrive in the holy land...
but people can be so blind sometimes...often...
but hey we're human...
i'm not judging...
just sayin'


ruthie, I'm confused. Do I have to be biased against black people in general to sleep with a thirty year old black man, or can I be prejudiced against any minority and still get to sleep with a thirty year old black man? Please explain. And hurry.


esther do me a favor...
find a nice black man...about 30 years old....
and sleep with him.
kiss him.
esther wake up! did you faint?

you are racist esther....it's ok....but can you please try changing?
because if you can't or won't, it's NOT OK.
hunger and fear can make someone appear mean...
you should have a bit more compassion. isn't that a jewish thing high on the list?
these black people in israel could be a test from g-d. and boy did we fail!!! but g-d does see the few that are showing kindness...can you be one them esther?


Pamela, Shmarya is not name calling when he calls you "sick" resultant of your apparent racism. Quite recently it was found that Propranolol (a blood pressure reducing medication) also reduced the hatred found implicit in racists.

You are indeed ill.


Esther –

You just keep lying and lying.

The treaties specifically prohibit deportations to home countries that are considered dangerous as defined by the UN and international bodies, NOT by Israel.

And, again, Israel does not classify actual African refugees as refugees, therefore depriving them of the help they otherwise would be legally entitled to receive.

It also arrests these un-classified refugees when they come looking for help, for example, outside aclinic in Tel Aviv set up to help them.

All of this has been widely reported in the Israeli media, as has the overt racism of many Israeli politicians.

As for you, your racism and your sickness are clear and apparent. Why not tell us all your real name, Pamela.


Nah, Esther, he doesn't bore you. He excites you.


Shmarya, you bore me.

You continually identify yourself as a misogynist by referring to a female opponent as 'sick' when she defeats you in argument. No need to advertise this sad condition, don't you think?

As I posted above, the government of Israel does aid both legal and illegal refugees as do a number of voluntary organizations.These are not the actions of a racist state.

Under the UN convention on refugees (1951) any signatory has the right to investigate claimants for asylum. The onus is on the claimant to prove that they flee persecution. Israel is as entitled as any state to refuse status where this has not been proven.

The treaty (of which Israel was a proposing nation, by the way) only prevents deportation when this will endanger the life of the claimant: people cannot be returned to a homeland where they face danger or sent to a third state that is dangerous. Otherwise, it is licit for any country to deport failed asylum seekers and most do. To say that Israel is racist because it does what most countries do, including your own, is fallacious. It's known as the 'every true Englishman' fallacy.

Some people in some Israeli parties may be racist - why only on the right? - but that does not prove these parties are racist or that the state is. This is, again, fallacious. It is known as the 'if one then all' fallacy.

In several EU states asylum seekers and other non-citizens are routinely deported if they incur a criminal conviction. Israel is more tolerant, since refugees who are convicted are not routinely deported. Again, these are not the policies of a racist state.

You have no points left, my poor bigoted friend. I am getting bored diagnosing your fallacies one by one and indulging your misogyny and anti-Israeli bigotry. You have lost this argument, exposed some rather unsavory parts of your personality and are forced to resort to silly platitudes and name calling.

I therefore conclude this argument. Try that Argumentation Theory 101 course, would you?



You are a sick person.

I very clearly explained that the government refuses to give legitimate African refugees official refugee status, and any decisions the government has made that grant benefits to legitimate refugees therefore help almost no one.

The treaties Israel signed prohibit the deportation of almost all of these refugees, even if Israel refuses to grant them refugee status – that is why they have not been deported.

And the racism of Shas, Likud and right wing pols with regard to this issue has been widely reported.

You are sick person.


You have not responded to any of my points. Here is a summary of what you said:

1. Israel is treating its Erithrean asylum seekers like Jews were treated by Nazi Germany and its collaborators (false).

2. Working is a crime for the refugees (false). An announcement by the Israeli ministry of work and pensions 8 months ago said that those who work illegally will not be prosecuted or expected to pay national insurance on their earnings.

3. Rape and other violent crimes are ways of staying alive or expressing discontent and so are licit for an asylum seeker (false).

4. Jews, Italians or Irish came to the US as asylum seekers (false). They came as legal migrants and that's why those who engaged in crime did not face deportation.

5. Israel is motivated by racism rather than by legitimate concerns in its treatment of refugees (false).

6. Israelis in general treat Erithreans badly (false).

7. Israel has no right to deport people who cannot prove their right to an asylum status (false).

If you cannot come up with anything better please accept that you have lost the argument and that, as I said before, you are profoundly racist, misogynistic and bigoted about Israel for some strange reason.

It is you who are blinded, Shmarya. Get over it. You lost the argument.


I responded to your points, Esther and refuted them. Perhaps your racism – an illness to be sure – is blinding you.



You are a very boring person.

Either admit that you lost the argument or respond to the points I raised.

By the way, I noticed that you started calling me 'sick' instead of 'racist'. This is an improvement indeed.


Esther –

You're a sick person.

People who have no legal way to earn money and who are abused by locals and treated like dirt often commit crimes to stay alive. Even working is a crime for them.

Are there real criminals among them? Yes, there are some – just as there were among the Jews who fled Europe or the Irish who fled Ireland and the Italians who fled Italy. But at least in America, people could work and survive. We see that now will undocumented workers, as well.


Poor little Shmarya, forever stuck in his student union days he never overgrew... offense instead of an argument.

You lost the argument, Shmarya, admit it. All you are doing is calling me a silly name.

How about calling your old uni and asking about that Argumentation Theory 101 course?


Poor little Esther. Wrong about history, wrong about ethics, wrong on the facts. Why, all poor little Esther is left with is her own racism.


... Oh, and may I just add that by comparing Israel's treatment of its African refugees with the treatment of Jews by Nazi Germany and its collaborators you are engaging in Holocaust denial?


Jeff, there is nothing in the Torah that obliges us to love strangers who commit violent crimes when they move in with us. If you wish to love them, you are welcome; just don't ask the victimized women of South Tel Aviv to love them as well.

Shmarya, it is you who should ask for a refund of your tuition. Obviously argumentation theory was never offered by your uni. They never told you that you don't win arguments by calling people insulting names, spouting fallacies or avoiding engagement with the points raised by your opponent.

It is profoundly racist to claim that people are justified in committing violent crimes because of their skin color. It is profoundly misogynistic to claim that crimes against women don't matter as long as they committed by refugee men. It is profoundly bigoted to accuse Israel of maltreatment while ignoring clear evidence to the contrary. So the only racist, misogynist and bigot here is you, I am afraid.

You are not misinformed about the issue, as I supposed first. You clearly refuse to consider the evidence every Israeli knows from years of media coverage.

May I suggest you consider joining some Palestinian website and broadcast to the world with great conviction that Israelis cut up Palestinian babies for their organs?


Indeed, the verses pertaining to the stranger are the only ones in which we are commanded to love, apart from the commandment to love God (about which don't even get me started).


Jeff's point is the most important one,especially for Torah-observant Jews. Treating with kindness foreigners ('gerim') who reside amongst Jews in Eretz Yisrael is by far the single most repeated mitzvah in the Torah.

Manuel Ferrara

Most respectable news organizations refer to them as migrants but for Shmarya they are all refugees as long as they arrived from Africa.

What people do not know that most of the rapes committed by the Aftica. refugees/migrants is against Filipinas not against Israelis. Most Filipinas do not file complains as they do not want to risk their employment. The are usually the bread winner of the family, they often leave young children in order to work abroad and support an extended family.

Some enlightenment:




Thank you
S m l
Thank you


Jeff: Good one.

Ruthie: May I offer you a napkin?


The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as one of your citizens; you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. - Leviticus 19:34

And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt. - Deuteronomy 10:19

Unless, apparently, they're black.


Maybe you can get a refund on all that wasted tuition.

i laughed so hard the tea came out of my nose!


Maybe you can get a refund on all that wasted tuition.

You're very confused and you're very bigoted.

A) When Jews came to America, a significant minority engaged in crime. That crime directly hurt Jews and non-Jews both. The irish did the same, the Italians did the same.

B) Whether you like it or not, most of the Africans you disparage are refugees under the international treaties Israel signed.

C) As you well know but do not say, Israel refuses to give the vast majority of those refugees refugee status, so the cannot get those permits and they cannot legally work or send their children to state schools.

D) Israel has done little to nothing for most refugees and has spent a lot of time and money trying to imprison them and deport them. Those are absolute facts, even if your racism doesn't allow you to admit it.


I am very well educated, thanks for your concern. Let's leave the ad hominem for a second and concentrate on the facts of the matter:

1. You engage in an argument by false equivalence.

Israel has an ongoing problem, similar to that of other European countries, of illegal immigration of people from cultures where unattached women of different races are seen as legitimate prey by men. This is a cultural problem, not a problem of unemployment or poor housing.

Whatever rapes, murders or other crimes are committed within one ethnic group bears no relation to inter-group crimes, nor do they justify them. So I am afraid that your lurid Jewish pimps of the 1880s and the Jewish mafia of the 1920s have nothing to do with the matter at hand. For all I believe they deserved to be deported.

2. You do not address the points I raised regarding the fact that Israeli refugees are allowed to work legally (there was an interim govt decision on this a year ago) by applying for a permit, their children are entitled to attend Israeli schools and they receive a number of social benefits on application.

3. Refugees are, by definition, people who flee political persecution. The very conventions that you quote (but seem not to have read) require that a claimant to this status prove that he or she was in imminent danger in their own country of origin. Israel has been incredibly lenient by letting years elapse in many cases before investigating claimants and allowing the courts to rule on the legality of their decisions. These are not conditions that violate either local or international law.

4. Jews who arrived in America have overwhelmingly came as legal immigrants. Therefore they had full legal rights. Even today America refuses to extend such rights to persons who entered its borders illegally. Extending rights to legal immigrants and denying them to illegal ones is not a violation of international law.

I am surprised that you, who is usually right on the button in your commentary on Jewish and Israeli matters, are so muddled in your approach to this one. You seem unable to think of Africans as anything but victims of racism or to conceive that some of Israel's problems are not unique to it but shared with other countries.

I give you permission to call me all sorts of names if you can't answer any of the points I have raised. Pile on the ad hominems and have a good night.


again yochanan lavie says it best.
and my how some people here have led such sheltered lives!!!
bet they've never broken bread with a black person.
let alone slept with one.
probably just paid them for menial work.
israelis way before these people were aghast at the ethiopians, and way before that kooshis were yemenites...
but these poor people fleeing terror....not given a chance...to be
judged like this.....so very sad.


You are so poorly educated, Esther.

There were plenty of violent robberies, murders, rapes and other crimes from a minority of Jewish immigrants to America. What do you think Murder, Inc. was?

How many Jewish girls were kidnapped by Jewish pimps who sold them into sex slavery in Argentina? Any thoughts? Any idea how many of them were gang raped?

As for destitution, in America, Jews were allowed to work, to become citizens, to save money, to start businesses and to go to schools like NYC City College.

In Israel, African refugees can do none of these things legally.


And, Shmarya, since you compare the situation of Israel's illegal aliens to that of Jews fleeing the Nazis in WW2, may I note that:

1. Jews fleeing the Nazis are not recorded as practicing gang rapes against the vulnerable women of their host countries.

2. Jews fleeing the Nazis were often destitute, yet there is no record of them engaging in violent robbery to ameliorate this.

So your comparison falls flat, I am afraid. A little bit of research would not have gone amiss...


Shmarya, I believe that you are misinformed on the kinds of crime committed by these illegal entrants.

The crimes most reported to the police where the perpetrator is described as a refugee are not property crimes. They are rapes.

The situation has been going for years and has been the subject of a vigorous argument between the residents of South Tel-Aviv and the Israeli media.

These are mostly gang rapes where a group of men will target a vulnerable woman. Homeless women, disabled and old women have all been attacked.

In effect this is no different from the situation in Sweden and Denmark where Sudanese refugees target local women.

I am sure you won't argue that these crimes are due to the want of work or housing.

Incidentally, Israel does not prevent the refugees from working or from receiving social assistance.


"Anytime anything at all is posted about black people- Jewish or gentile- the post becomes a magnet for cretins."

Why are you calling Shamarya a cretin? he is a lot of things: disengenuous, a fact misrepresenter, propagandist.... but I wouldn't call him a cretin.

And Shamarya: You still havn't responded to a single point I raised. Not one. LOL

Why on Earth should Israel provide employment opportunities to people that are there illegally? It is also illegal for many hareidim to work, but somehow, this doesn't bother you. OTOH, you are all bent out of shape by a bunch illegal aliens who are responsible for a dramatic increase in the crime rate.

You sure have a rather warped sense of values.

Yochanan Lavie

Anytime anything at all is posted about black people- Jewish or gentile- the post becomes a magnet for cretins.


"...SR now you are giving people an excuse to break the law...."

That's absurd. Nobody's giving anyone anything. The point is that if there is no legal way to acquire the wherewithal to purchase necessities of life and if those are not otherwise provided then people will have a simple choice: steal or starve. What would you do? Understanding is not the same as granting license to break the law or excusing behavior however people in such dire straits have or believe that they have no alternative. Such a magnanimous fine frum fellow you must be.


SR now you are giving people an excuse to break the law. Please let us know who has a right to break the law. I love when you say "little man" its being judgmental and cynical and being a big shot all wrapped in one. This story is perfect example of you picking on charedim even though it has nothing to do with them. Apparently according to you there is always an excuse for anti semitism real or imagined.


I see the two haredi apologists are back and as stupid as ever.

Do try to process, little man: when you make it impossible for refugees to legally work and you do not give them food or housing, they have little other choice but to break the law.

That very simple point is one that is far too difficult for your tiny, racist yeshiva-addled minds to grasp.

There is no excuse for anti-Semitism, but there is no excuse for your BS, either.


Thank you lfti99 I just don't have the time your paitence to rebutal all these ludicrous attempts to slander a group of people. Who gave them the right to judge - in every walk of life there are bad apples and to generalize and to judge is wrong. Freedom of speech is your right to exercise but there is annother right is innocent until proven guilty no one has a right to judge ,I will end off with a quote from Albert Einstein "anger dwells in the bosom of fools"


Once again, Shamarya never misses an opportunity to bash the religious. Here is post from wikipedia on the Africans in Israel:

" Involvement in crime[edit source | editbeta]
In a discussion held by the police commissioner Dudi Cohen in December 2010, he stated that while there is a decline in cases of robberies in the general population, there is a dramatic increase in this type of crime among the illegal immigrants. According to the research department of the Israel Police and Israel's foreign immigrants' crime is characterized by predominantly sectoral internal crime, in which a gun is not reported, and illegal immigrants generally have no interest in complaining to the police.[17] Due to an increase in criminal acts and the feeling of insecurity among the residents of southern Tel Aviv, the Israeli police established a new station near the New central bus station and the Shapira neighborhood.[25] The station includes approximately 100 police officers and is expected to accommodate about 150 police officers. According to the data of the Israeli Police which was presented to the Knesset in March 2012 - from 2007 there is a steady increase in the involvement in crime of the illegal immigrants, both due to the significant increase in their numbers and for various other reasons. in 2011 1,200 criminal cases were opened against illegal immigrants from Africa - half of them were opened in the Tel Aviv district. This is an increase of 54% in comparison to the previous year.[26]
Israeli police reported experiencing difficulties dealing with criminal cases involving illegal immigrants originating from Africa, since the police do not possess interpreters who are capable of speaking the Tigrinya language spoken in Eritrea. In addition, the Israeli legal system also has reported a serious difficulty in conducting proper criminal procedures involving suspects who speak only the Tigrinya language.[27]"

1. They are in Israel illegally

2. There has been a huge increase in crime in the areas they live in. Israel was forced to build NEW police stations because crime became so rampant.

3. As such, very few Israelis want to live near them.

4. The government is not run by the religious. In fact, the hareidi parties are barely represented. The ruling parties are overwhelmingly secular. How you can blame the religious for this is beyond me (but knowing your history, I guess I shouldn't be surprised).

The vast majority of people who are complaining are not religious at all! I guarantee you this policy would be in place no matter who ran the government.


So now Israel is pro charedi but in refrence to the draft or charedi budget cuts they are anti chsredi make up your mind

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