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July 25, 2013

Not Guilty: Father Accused Of Gang Raping Daughter Acquitted

Alleged victim 2An Orthodox girl’s claims that she was gang raped by her father and a group of his friends and that she was sexually abused by him over many years were rejected by a London jury yesterday, which took only five minutes of deliberation to acquit the father and one of his friends (the only friend that was ever charged).

 

Not Guilty: Father Accused OF Gang Raping Daughter Acquitted
Shmarya Rosenberg • FailedMessiah.com

An Orthodox girl’s claims that she was gang raped by her father and a group of his friends and that she was sexually abused by him over many years were rejected by a London jury this week, which took only five minutes of deliberation to acquit the father and one of his friends (the only friend that was ever charged), the Jewish Chronicle reported.

The father and his friend were reportedly hugged by members of the jury outside the court immediately after the not guilty verdicts were read.

During the month-long trial, the British jury heard that:

• A gynecological exam of the girl came back normal even though she claimed she had been raped with a spiked ball, a live gerbil and a live snake, and even though she had testified that her rapists had cut her sexual organ.

• The girl’s mobile phone records showed that on the two daus that she alleged the gang rapes took place, she was using that phone almost continuously.

• The locations where the two defendants and the girl had used their phones on those days didn’t match the girl’s testimony about where she allegedly had been raped.

The girl also testified that she had been put in a cage, had been peppered with electric shocks and threatened that she would be sold as a sex-slave if she failed to cooperate or if she told police.

The jury also heard that the girl had repeatedly and often logged into a porn website called ‘Brutally raped.’

In another case, the father was recently convicted of sexually abusing his two young stepdaughters and is due to be sentenced soon.

His attorney alleges his daughter in this case colluded with her father’s new family to invent all the charges against him, and said the father would appeal that conviction.

Related Post: Frum Girl Alleges Father And Group Of His Friends Gang Raped Her.

Comments

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Sounds like the girl needs some heavy counselling.

hi again to, bas melech, knowinrebbetzin, martin, maybe after now knowing more about the case, you will take back all you have said, & admit you were completely wrong. HANDS UP PLEASE. even the anti chareide paper jc has this story printed & not been biased. please buy the paper ,think about what you read, then please put your emotion aside & be fair on the victim(the father)

Trials clear as well as convict.

As I said earlier, if the gang rape thing had been true you would have seen the prosecution getting participants to turn on each other.

This girl should be beaten into a pulp for making up such a horrendous lie.

" just because a jury acquitted the suspect ,does not mean that the suspect is innocent"

Brought to you by supporters of George Zimmerman.

If her story didn't match up, it didn't match up, and the man deserved to be acquitted. Just as was the case with Rabbi Bryan Bramly who was exonerated before trial. Unfortunately, Bramly lost his job, and there will always be a cloud over his head. People don't like to believe that sometimes rape "victims" lie.

Phillip -
How much more than this "The father and his friend were reportedly hugged by members of the jury outside the court immediately after the not guilty verdicts were read." do you need to tell you that this was likely yet another miscarriage of justice?

CH got off the hook completely. All YE needs is to put on a streimel and he can open up his own shul next door to CH's.

Let me repeat what I said before, since you are struggling with understanding me. Based on my KNOWLEDGE of this YE, he is a sexual predator. This is non-negotiable. Nothing you will say will convince me of anything other than my KNOWLEDGE of him.

Now what happened between him and his daughter? Nothing about YE would surprise me. Again, he is a KNOWN sexual predator. My inclination is to believe any and all allegations about him that involve sexual violence. If you changed his sexual past, his history, and he was as ehrlich as his brothers for example, I would happily believe that justice has been served. However, a predator is a predator is a predator.

Or as they say in Jewish if it looks like shit, and smells like shit it must be a heilige yid. Or did I get that wrong?

@janci- if that's what you really believe, then you are no better than many of the haredim you detest.

@jake- You are correct.

Once the jury has spoken, as far as Officer of the Court, that ends the matter. (Granted, there are sometimes appeal issues, but..)
when there is an acquittal, the jury has spoken.

In The Knower Rebbetzin ,yes you got it totally wrong.

Many years ago, I knew a man who was accused by his ex-wife of sexually abusing her very young daughter and wished to deny him visitation rights. She had no real evidence and her unconvincing allegations were dismissed by the court.
The marriage had ended in a most traumatic and humiliating manner for the wife in that she had come home early one day from work and had caught her husband in flagrante delicto in the marital bed with the child's nanny.
The wife's false allegations were due to revenge (which while wrong were understandable) or were genuinely felt by the wife by reason of traumatic psychosis the husband's actions brought about. The fact that the father was cleared of child abuse did not mean he was not otherwise an SOB as he had to admit to himself.
It is not normal for an adult daughter to make such allegations against her father. There is a phenomenal hatred or trauma in this woman which the father may have been responsible for. This case is not a good advertisement for Orthodox family life and shows how dysfunctional it can be.

'They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

Philip Larkin.

I was sick to my stomach reading the original post. To me, this is an important reminder that there are ALWAYS two sides to every case, and that as much as we may be *aching* to lash out, we need to hear out both sides before we come to a verdict.

It also makes you realize how much power/responsibility journalists have, since the way they report a story has everything to do with how we react emotionally and consequently what we believe to be true.

the stories just didnt ring true. however, you have to ask yourself why a daughter would make such accusations. could there have been abuse that wasnt quite as outrageous? i wouldnt dismiss it especially in light of the previous conviction. she's definitely a troubled girl. did something lead to it?

jake--Some of the chareidi spirit is still in me,but i am trying my best to rid of it,i meant she needs a good beating jovialy.

In The Knower Rebbetzin ,yes you got it totally wrong.

Posted by: Rachel | July 25, 2013 at 02:04 PM


Really? Let's gamble with your daughter, then. He'll be back on the market when you persuade him to give the get

No one responding to this item were 1) investigating the case, 2) officers of the court with access to primary documents, witnesses, or testimony, or 3) jurors who heard both sides make their case. What we are is a bunch of people reading short news summaries with the juiciest quotes and forming snap judgments based on our guts, experiences, and personal biases. None of us actually have anything material to add to the matter.

@In the Knower Rebbetzin
I tend to trust your assessment of the situation.

I apologize if the girl made false accusations.

However, I also agree with
ah-pee-chorus | July 25, 2013 at 03:06 PM
Something either happened to her or to somebody close to her and afraid to come forward.

It is also fishy that the jury was too friendly with the defendant.

Also, I still contend that the prosecution would have not brought totally unfounded charges against him. Some parts of the accusations were probably true.

Bas Melech,

I think that it's simplistic to think that because charges are brought against someone therefore it must be the case that "some parts of the accusation were probably true". There's something known as a bogus charge and there are many many cases of such charges brought against innocent people.
I am not saying that this father has done nothing wrong because I can't know that. But this girl might be very troubled and have a disturbed fantasy life. Mental illness can be a big factor here. There is simply no way for any of us to know whether some form of abuse on the father's part contributed to her accusations or perhaps some other trauma totally unrelated to her father caused her to accuse him of such horrible crimes.

I have read these comments and cannot stay quiet anymore.. I personally know the family and the case.. Firstly if he was innocent why did he feel the need to hire one of the best lawyers in England? The defense were known to bribe people to be witnesses and lie for them.. They played dirty.. They would not have needed to do this had they been innocent would they? Anyone who knows the girl knows she is a FRUM, good hearted loving person.. She is extremely popular amongst peers and other people. Se always did extreme chessed and loved to help people. Additionally she always said that she did not report them for herself but to protect other people in the future.. And FWI if any of you we're there she said the snake happened at a different occasion to when she was drugged. The phone records were from an individual from the defense side (clearly untrue records) .. Eryeh erentroy who I believe is calling himself Philip was a huge macher. Who got involved and did so many illegal and wrong things against this girl and her family. I admire her courage whilst everyone makes her out to be an awful person she still stands strong

+++The phone records were from an individual from the defense side (clearly untrue records) +++

huh?? how could they have been entered into evidence if they werent her actual phone records. why wouldnt the prosecution have provided the "true" phone records which supported their side? this makes no sense.

Philip - so an 'anti-Haredi' paper has mentioned it, it must be true now. You fool. And Lovefortorah - you mentioned the name and tactics, anyone who'd followed the case would know how true your words ring; there was much foul play by some of the defences proponents. And ah-pee-chorus - it may not make sense to you, but either the prosecution or defence can obtain them (however they so choose to, via official channels or not). In this case the defence got hold of the records themselves, and sadly as with many other inconsistencies in this case, it was seemingly tampered with and presented as evidence.

Lovetroah

Does this Erentroy also live in Israel part of the time and works with the rabbinate?

Bas Melech
Why can't you just say you were *wrong*?
You knew nothing about the details of the case yet you had already decided he was guilty.
No respect for you.Sorry

She should face the punishment she wanted her father to get. That is the reality. She should be locked up for false accusation of the most vicious sort.

I can't believe the people that claim well the father may have done some wrong which ok maybe he has. That gives the daughter the right to scream "rape".

I think we should should kill all men already. We won't have a blog but then men can't commit any crimes and they will be peace on earth and since men are imperfect that is an appropriate response.

I wonder if the gender roles were reversed what some of the people that claim this is OK for other wrongs would say.

Any way you look at it, it's a severely dysfunctional family.
I do not believe the father is a good guy by any means, but this story was just too outrageous.
Is the father an abusive scumbag who may very well have molested his kids, and the stepchildren, but not as specifically accused in this case?
Is there a Parental Alienation Syndrome case going on with this deeply disturbed daughter?

The embracing of the defendant with the jury reminds me of Lemrick Nelson going out to a victory dinner with his jurors.

+++it may not make sense to you, but either the prosecution or defence can obtain them (however they so choose to, via official channels or not). In this case the defence got hold of the records themselves, and sadly as with many other inconsistencies in this case, it was seemingly tampered with and presented as evidence.

Posted by: choc |+++

sounds like BS. here too either side can subpoena phone records. if the other side questions their validity it gets hashed out and the judge decides on its admissibility. its easy to get it validated and confirmed by a rep of the phone company. it cant be much different there. the prosecution could have produced their own list or questioned the defense's.
how were they tampered with? the lawyers risked their careers to tamper with something that can so easily be shown? stop!
and if those records disproved her story, then she was lying about at least some details. that doesnt mean i think the dads a good guy. far from it. but the facts are what they are.

U KNOW WHY BAS MELECH, REBETZIN, & MARTIN CAN NOT SAY SORRY, IS BECAUSE THEY ARE THE FAMILY/FRIENDS INVOLVED. WHAT A GOOD LAUGH ME AREYA EHRENTREU IS ME.XXXXX GOOD SHAGUS

GOOD NEWS TO EVERYBODY, I AM POSTING NO MORE COMMENTS ON THIS CASE, I THINK I HAVE MADE MY POINT. JUST TO LEAVE ON A LIGHT NOTE, THE GIRL ENJOYED WATCHING THE X FACTOR, SHE ACTUALLY THOUGHT SHE WAS WATCHING THE SEX FACTOR. HA HA HA,

I think we can see the type of cretins are drawn to the defense. Phillip's posts speak volumes.

The jury was rigged. It's a scientfic fact that all Chareidim are rapists and perverts and are guilty of all crimes and even more. (Just helping out Shmarya).

I think that the legal terms as conviction of acquittance can only apply to human beings-and not to the frumma pieces of shit.

I have a question for Philip, who acknowledged (in previous post) that he is a friend of the defendant (father?):

Did you try this poor girl's body too?

I read through all the comments and wondered if I should reply or not, because whatever one says the haters will hate and the lovers will love!

You all sit there behind pseudonyms, grow a pair and put a name behind your comments!

Regarding 'Philip' I don't believe its my dad because he can't write English anywhere near as well as that!

When I first heard about the story flying around my parents house I didn't believe my dad and believed the prosecution for the simple reason that so often in religious circles the victim gets ignored!
But that was when a young girl accused her father of raping her. But then amazingly gang rapes was added to just rape and then snakes and gerbils etc. where added!
Now at this point I'm still half believing her stories but I'm starting to have doubts. Then magically there where photos of her tied up, allegedly taken by her father.
Hear me out I don't know what's true and what isn't but something sounds fishy!
Then I hear that the person who reported to the police that he broke his bail and sent him to jail was a very good friend of the mother of the girl! (Which btw in court her husband who signed the letter admitted he didn't know the content of the letter, or the fact that written on the letter was an apparent conversation that he had with the accused that in court he admitted wasn't very incriminating at all)
A little but more fishy!
Then it went to court! Put yourself in the position of the prosecution! What would be your ultimate goal? To prove to the courts that the accused is guilty! So I wonder that the time that I was in court and the reports I read about it, most of the prosecutors work was disproving conspiracy! Not much on the facts of the alleged abuse for the simple reason that he didn't have much to fight with!
To those that say that the prosecution didn't use phone records! Rubbish! I was personally in court when the prosecution was questioning the accused with a whole pile of phone records!
Then to add to my confusion whilst I am sitting I'm court most of the mothers siblings walk in as her sister from America testifies against the girl and her mother. (They where all bribed? Maybe) but listen to what I heard!
The mothers sister repeated a conversation between the girl who is accusing and her mother. One of the girls accusations was that she was raped about 4 times a week. Now if the mother was out 4 times a week then that isn't good parenting is it? Now this conversation her sister said was in an angry tone and the mother said to her daughter 'how could you say four times a week!'
As this was said in court the mother who was sat on the back row directly behind me said in a shocked voice 'no' accompanied by a slur of swear words! Interesting!
Then I find out that it took the jury 5-7mins to find him not guilty on 17 accounts!

So what should I think, the girl said only the truth and everyone was bribed?!
Seriously is that the best you can all come up with?

In regards to the jury or the judge being bribed, all I heard for those four weeks at home was the jury don't seem on our side, the judge doesn't like the accused! I find it hard to believe that they where so worried about the judge being sympathetic to the prosecution if they where paid off.
And to add to that, the judges summary was leaning heavily to the prosecution, and Jonathan Goldberg requested it gets rewritten or they will appeal on grounds of unfairness if they lose!

So don't sit there hiding behind your computer cursing out everyone and shouting the only thing which is bribery! Convince me that what I feel fishy about is not true!

The fact is that no one knows the truth besides the young girl and her father, but if you look at everything that is in front of you it's very hard to believe that any of this happened!

I just want to mention that the girls mother on the last day of court got up and said that without Aryeh Ehrentreu we would won! That stinks of desperation!

Master Eherenreu, I applaud you for not veiling yourself; I however should remain behind a cloak, as I have no father, mother, brother or sister to defend here, rather just my opinion.

I believe both the defendants are guilty, as to the depth and scope of the charges, I may agree they're not guilty on all, but definitely on enough charges to be behind bars for quite some time.

Regarding his breaking his bail terms - irrelevant of whoever reported it - he did break his terms, whether him lying about his lodging arrangements, messaging witnesses or getting others to contact witnesses, he broke his terms - it's a matter of fact.

Ad for the records, may I reiterate, the defence got ahold of the records - not the prosecution - so thats the phones records both sides were working with. Let's not discuss how they were obtained or the validity ..no 'conspiracy theories' here.

Furthermore, do you not for a moment doubt the the accused would have used other phones (pay-as-you-go) rather than their usual ones for alibi. Again as for the phone calls placed, were they not placed to people the victim denied and said she hadn't spoken to in a while - conveniently, they were phone calls placed to family who testified for the defendant.. As for lies/bribes, must I mention the various character witnesses who blatantly lied and some who were disregarded there and then - you would know all this though, wouldn't you? Furthermore, YE 'never ever knew' YK - really?! plenty in the community who knows them could tell you what BS that it. 'Boyfriends' offered kickback to testify - to name just a few deceptive tactics which the defence tried to play - all this for a blatantly innocent person - really?!

As for the 4/5 times per week - as I said, the scope of truth may be somewhat exaggerated, it 'may be' ..but 'Now if the mother was out 4 times a week then that isn't good parenting is it?' excuse me, but she did 'not' say she was raped in her bedroom every time - she was taken out to wherever the places she mentioned, it was not always in her own home - you obviously didn't pay too much attention in court now!

As for the bribing - we can all come to our own conclusions (..there almost certainly was some shmearing)

And you may be right, that no one besides those 3 know the truth (more or less the truth)..

Still, I leave you with a little question, that you and others can ask yourselves - would you let the 'innocent accused' near you children ..hmm, have a good think about that..

I mean Mr Goldberg, according to the JC did say he plans to appeal the charges of his first case, I'm glad he's been so blind-sighted by this 'innocent man'. Sadly in the community it would seem being an avid proponent of the perverts and abusers is the 11th commandment.

Still, you bring some valid points to the table. Bravo.

to russian phd, you asked a question, so i will ansewer, YES I DID ACTUALLY & IT WAS THE HIGHLITE OF MY LIFE, EVERYBODY SHOULD TRY IT SOMETIME

RABBI W ALSO HAD A GO

And that it is a known fact that [redacted by siteowner] has had intercourse in the alleged victims mothers parents bedroom, some times (years ago) on a daily basis, was never brought up by the prosecution? Shame on them.
And apparently a daughter of rabbi ehrentrau's long time mentor [redacted by siteowner], is currently doing the exact same thing once a month in that exact same bedroom!! How could these known facts have slipped by just like that? Definitely fishy Mr. Avi isn't it?. Unless [redacted by siteowner] knows something we don't? or he got sidetracked and forgot these clearly incriminating facts.

Choc
First of all I have no defending to do because I would be the first to condemn my dad if he was wrong, I just think anyone who tries to smear either side with out purpose and hides is a coward!
To respond to your question.
1. Your opinion that they are guilty of which ever charges, doesn't make much of a difference since its only your opinion.
2. If you know the case well then you will know that he was arrested for breaking his bail on one account which was trying to bribe someone to contact his daughter. That man himself stood in court and said that he is unsure if the conversation which they had was in fact bribery or he had misheard the conversation and therefore based on that there was no reason for him to be jailed on that. (I can't comment too much on what is going to happen on the future regarding the broken bail as I am not allowed to)
3. If let's say there were doubts on the aucenticity of the records don't you think that the prosecution would have got hold of the real ones and proved in court that the defence has forged the records?
Re only calling the family which gave witness for the defence.
Actually they weren't! I was in court when the defence showed that the time that the prosecution had pencilled in for one of the rape cases she had called her mother! I don't think that she Gave witness for the defence!
4. I can't comment on if they knew each other because if I'm being really honest I don't know YK at all so I have no clue!
5. Well here I think you are wrong again! I did focus in court alot besides a lot that I have read. She told PC savage in one of her many contradictory interviews that it started off for the first two years since she was ten in her house sometimes as many as 3-4 times a week. After the first two years is when allegedly it got more extreme an with other people. And that's why her mother had to figure out a way how her ex husband raped her daughter under her roof for at least 2 years as many as 3-4 times a week.
6. Re bribing I have no clue. What I could say is that my dad couldn't have been involved coz he went around raising money to pay part of the lawyer fees and he ain't that wealthy himself today.
7. Strange u mention that. I was in London the other week for shabbos and me and my wife with the kids were walking and we happened to meet him. So I introduced my wife to him an she was shocked how nice he was etc. I don't think i would ever leave an older devorced man to watch my kids but I would trust him as much as I would others!

I don't know how much you know of the other case, but I'll be honest with you 95% of the charges we would all be guilty of with our own children. The only difference is that they are his stepchildren, but everyone agreed that his wife encouraged him to become closer to them!

Without getting to wound up in this - ill be ending with this, I'll agree yet disagree with you on some points.
You're correct it's only my opinion and I haven't the power to alter the verdict. Yet, regarding abuse time/dates/occurrence, there are as you mentioned inconsistencies, yet without boggling all details (I would only know some - as I wouldn't have been there throughout or heard all of the details ) there was also dates which would corroborate her version of events and working on the assumption that she was definitively positive (which again, as some dates were quite a while ago) it is not implausible that she did mix dates up.
As to my opinion of what did/didn't happen, it was to point out that he was exonerated on all charges - which was shocking.
Again, as for bribery/ defendants actually being acquaintances - this is often based on hearsay, but some points brought up such as bribing - I don't know you're father, and not saying he did/nt get his hands dirty (besides for names that are 'heard' around town) but some bribes were quite 'known' as we're witnesses who, whichever side you were on, anyone frum and from the community would know there were quite a few lies thrown around.
Lastly, I'm glad he charmed you! and I don't really know the in/outs of the first case, but from what you say he was encouraged by his wife, well he obviously took that a little to literal! But as a middle-aged man and with kids from previous marriage, its perplexing that he's unaware that touching up children is a no-no just about anywhere on the face of the earth ..unless maybe he'd been practicing for a while already.
I guess we can agree to disagree and form our own opinions - no hard feelings. L'hitraot

Avi, you absolute idiot, you think paedos have it written on their foreheads? Think it takes less than a charmer to groom children?


You're a manc so we'll forgive you and your ignorance, both defendants have been close friends for years and rumours were flying around about at least one of them for years as well.
really? you'd paw your own children? under their tee shirts when they are fully developed? get a life man. Among other things. His wife encouraged him to be friendly with them, because he hated the fact that she had five children, he wanted her sole attention, she never wanted him to paw them. She would never have condoned that, you know nothing, you know absolutely nothing about her if you believe that. How absolutely fucking dare you besmirch her name with your apologetics, how dare you bring your father into this, when you scratch the surface of any manc scandal your father name is somewhere, wonder how a certain paedo escaped the country a few months back. The defence made a big deal about jews not lying, really, bc we pay so much attention to jealousy and honouring our parents that it's inconceivable that a jew would lie on the stand?
While I admit the story was bordering on the ridiculous, Im not so sure these men are squeaky clean and to scream that not guilty equals innocent just shows your naivete. So the vicitm was a crap witness, if it was such a crap story why did half the defence witnesses seem to be lying through their teeth, but oh no jews dont lie. Course they would lie to keep their relative out of jail. So how about you just keep quiet, and let it all die down, the London "community" will sort itself out eventually. We'll let your dad look after the manks, in his bumbling non rabbinic non legal capacity, nobody is quite sure what he does and nobody really gives a rats arse.

I have never written on this type of things, I feel that I must say and ask some questions to mr [a.e.] and farther.

In the begging I very much agreed with pidyon shvuin, but this has gone much further then just that, what I have seen in this case from the defence side is a disgrace beyond my belief.

It is one thing trying to save a man from going to prison, even as in this case we all new he was guilty of abusing his daughter, we were not sure at what level, but to destroy a whole family with lies is something ells.

1) the girls laptop in America had over 4500 porn sites opened between the 5th of June to the 12th of June last year, in fact the girl was not in new york to use her laptop, but ur farther was in new york staying at the aunt and using the laptop, why ? What was he doing with it ?
2) there is another girl that was going to make a statement that YE touched her in not nice places, the farther is a rov in united shul but they were paid of with a cheque
3) the aunt from new york is a business partner with YE
4) the cousin twins, changed their statements during the court case, how much were they paid ?
5) on the last day of the court you nor your father where in court, I was and I never heard the mother say anything like what you say, why did you lie ?
6) the phone logs, what gave me doubt, the fact that over a 4 hour period all the calls that were made, none lasting more then 5 seconds, have u ever had that over 4 hour’s u made so many calls and not 1 person did u speak to ?

I have many more questions that doesn't make any sense to me, maybe you can start by answering this for me.

The truth
I'll try to answer u as much as I could.
First of all how could you say we all knew he abused his daughter when her own mother by her own admission didn't know anything about it before the beginning of 2012 and in 2009 herself told the head of a school (when this rumour came up once before)that its not true and it can't be true.
1 my father went to ny in march the laptop was brought back to uk I'm February.
2. I have no knowledge about.
3. Do u really think for all the money in the world a sister would testify in court against her own sister and niece. (I don't know but I highly doubt it! I wouldn't lie against my sister for all the money in the world!)
4. So did the girl and her mother change many things thy said on the last day (you would know as you where there)
5. My father wasn't there because he had been there in and off for nearly four weeks and had a family to prepare to go on holiday! And if you want to know where I know from two of the people that where there both say that the mother said so in court! (Can't validate it though, so not going to argue with you)
6. I can't answer you specifically on that point because I don't know every bit of evidence, but what I could say is this: if you believe these questions should have been asked then why didn't you suggest to the prosecution that they should ask them?

The only thing I can say is what I said before wether anything is true or not I don't know, but this story from her side was accompanied with so
Many contradictions and so many proven lies that I find it hard to beleive!

Just a quick question which I found hard to understand, they have date logs that she watched videos of things she alleged where done to her on dates before they where allegedly done to her!

And bystander,
First of all as far as I have ever seen girls, no they are no where near developed at 10! And did you know that both girls in the interview said that they didn't feel it was anything sexual at all, but the judge rules that it wasn't up to them to decide rather for the jury to decide.
And you are right, I don't know much about her, and I never said that she would condone what he did, but if you know as much as you say you do then you would know that she wanted him to get closer to the girls!
And if she thought he was so horrible and an animal why didn't she agree to call the police? Why did she need a full blown argument with her sisters (who knew about the other case) to convince her to go to the police?

And if you want sit at home swearing and insulting people who you proly don't even know much at all about, hiding behind your computer screen then you are just a simple coward! No more no less! Continue cursing out the world because no one gives a toss!

Avi
you are to be commended for taking what you veiw as an honest and unbiased approach to this issue. espite your close proximity (family memeber) you are demonstrating that an open and mature conversation can be had without emotion being mixed in.

The following questions need to be asked and each individual in our community needs to address them:

what is your fathers interest in helping suspected peados in Manchester and London?

It is rumored (at this stage) that he was the key player in helping TG skip bail and escape to Israel. If that is the case is it not rather strange that he is assisting a community of peadophiles within frum circles and that is worrying.

You have not refuted that fact that your father did handle the computer. What was his interest and why was he so desparate for ZW not to attend court?

The suspect whjo has now taken a vacation in Israel is aware that there are a number of victims fo his abuse waiting to make a formal complaint to the police and as such may stay in Israel to avoid justice.

Did you know that YK was sent away from Israel as a teenager to live with family in London, and the circumstances sorrounding that? He has a history and your father may know what it is, seeing as they both come from the same town in Israel. Did Mr Ehrentrau run away under similar circumstances.

Our community has to flush out child abuse and its supporters. The fact that Rabbis can honour people whilst they are on trial for crimes of this sort is to be abbhorred.
Support them - Yes, they have families and the old english adge syas " innocent until proven guilty", but honoring them publicly in our shuls goes way to far.

I have no knowledge of this case itself however I do know things about various characters involved and to say the least - these facts are disgusting. You must be unaware but Mr Ehrentrau was also lablled as a peado as a teenager. Talk to thise who knew him - they may tell you more.

oh avi, avi, tsk tsk, really? ten year olds arent developed, clearly you must have gone to an all boys school if you think all ten year olds arent showing at least something. I know 9 year olds with periods and bras.... ERm what vocabulary does a young child have to understand whether something is sexual? especially a frum sheltered child? what matters is INTENT! an older man doesnt put his hands around a developing child and in her training bra to tickle her, (and even that would be suspect!) he does it satisfy his needs. The jury was satisfied his intent was sexual. Since when does a child understand the dynamics of a man "grooming" her? A man who is known to have a bit of a breast fetish isnt likely to have touched the children by accent. Id say his taste in women is largely chest related too.
A bit more sense and less "daddy sez" if you please.
Seriously man are you sick? she wanted him to like her children and be nice to them! not molest them Bc he didnt want her children around. Now, if you're gonna have a husband and five kids in an average sized house, you kind of want them all to get along, you don't want long faces all the time, you don't want him to pull your burgeoning developing daughters on his lap and touch them... Seriously? Have you thought about anything?
there was never any full blown argument, When your worst nightmares come true, the first reaction is "fuck no this cant be!" it needs the ppl that love you most unconditionally, your sisters to tell you, no this is really true and we need to do something.
I know for a fact that she pleaded with her children, you need to be absolutely sure about this bc it can ruin a man, There was NO PLOT, she has nothing to gain and everything to lose, she is self employed every day in that court was less money and food on the table, Do you think a normal mother would put her children through that if not necessary? She did not despise YE at all, there is no revenge plot, it is all fiction spun by the defence barrister and your father! YE has no money and standing, what does she gain by plotting? she didnt know about any rumours or she wouldnt have married him. I hope you are never in these circumstances...oh and btw as info for your own daughters, periods come earlier these days and breasts mostly develop before that. Maybe your school didnt do biology?
You are really in no position to speak about the case after popping in a coupla times and not knowing both sides intimately. Daddy of course either doesnt know most info or is revealing tidbits very selectively. And account deleted is right, it is one thing to pay for a defence bc everyone deserves a defence, but rally around and make sure certain ppl testify?

Sometimes it is hard to disbelieve in the ones we think are closest to us. Like RM and YE and you and your father. Maybe a little more sympathy should be forthcoming. Do youknow tg this is all happening now and not ten years ago. TEn years ago she would have had eggs thrown at her windows of her business, a business built up in sweat and tear. TG the community has moved on and can still treat her like the honest, talented, kind woman she always has been and look past this whole sordid business that isnt her fault.

btw' just for the record, AE the farther also got ruach out the country, that's the farther who impregnated his own 12 year old daughter,

apparently AE the farther had collected money from people in manchester for this case, but the defense team have not had a penny from him, so what did he do with that money.

re the sister coming forward for money, well unfortunately as is known about one of the uncles as well as that sister, they would do anything for money, and those two with your daddy put tremendous pressure on the other sisters who knew nothing about this case apart from what you told them to come forward.
listen little boy, i am almost 60, i have been around and seen many things over my time, one thing i will say, is that your farther will have his time for all the abusers he is protecting

Its very sad, and a sad time for victims. Finally someone has come forward, has plucked up the energy and after hours of support and councelling come forward for the safety as other .. only to be knocked down.

As an introduction: I am in the know and am privvy to all the information from both sides as I was involved in the defence and the prosecution and happy to answer any questions within legal boundaries, hence I do need to be annonymous as no doubt this will happen again and I will be involved.

I am not saying whether the Jury were right or wrong as we have a justice system in this country and we need to follow it. What is true that if you can put up a lot of money for a good defence lwayer who can pull tricks last minute against teh understaffed and under resourced prosecution, this can and has in the past won cases. Its a common technique against the CPS to bring foward some eveidence that the prosecution has no time to read because they are on a budget.

In this particular case to clarify: the girl had everyting to lose by coming forward, her family both near and extended and also her financial support from her father which was continuing. In fact the girl had stepped up twice in the past but did not go through with it because of what she knew would do to her family (Which it has done). You must ask yourself, has it every happened in the field for a girl to ome so far foward and not been true.

As stated above YK had come to UK age 16 follwoign his impulsive behaviour and inabilty to control himself aroung younger boys. When he came to England this did not stop and there are boys out there who need the strength to come foward. If you are one of them then either email me or call Shema Koili 020 3670 1818.

The father has no public record or anyone out there who ahve come foward, but judging from the step daughters case, is clear too see that he lacks the balls of YK (excuse the pun) and only molests those close to him or under his care. ask AE, MS or GS and those who gatheered in his defence how they sleep at night knowing this man was a phedo, but hey ' we cant let him go to jail Gd forbid someone might make him pick up teh soap. Pathetic. Instaed let him loose in our Jewish community.

YE standing up and running and bending over backwards - not judging but one must wonder why he goes to such length to protect a phedo... perhaps building up the experience in case someone comes forward against him.

I only hope and pray that this case does not discourage any future victims from coming forward as they will need the strength not only to face the perpertrator but also the 'merry men' from the hill who stand shoulder to shoulder to make sure that abuse can continue.

Vehmeivin Yovin

And to Avi - dont get involved or post anything out what is clearly ignorance on your side.

the man who is nearly 60, is out by 10 years, maybe a little old to drive a school bus full of children, or to sell viagra in ireland

Martin with all due respect your comments are pathetic and a joke! You just love talking and smearing without knowing anything about anyone, and therefore I don't feel the need to respond to that!
Account deleted, that's the first I've heard that my dad was a peado as a kid! Hilarious and very below a basic mature standard convi and therefore doesn't need much response!
Bystander I'm not gona respond to you either because if you look at my first comment I wrote 'the haters will always hate' you are on the prosecutors side and no matter what anyone ever says you will never agree. (Don't come and say 'oh no I'm not' because if you go back all your messages it's very obvious who you are)
And intheknow if you are so in the know then obviously you are either aren't the brightest spark or you are not very much in the know. And if you think in ignorant in the case, not here like a baby to argue and compare notes but I know alot more than you evidently think I know and proly slot more than even my dad thinks I know.
And obviously you are so in the know that you know what the prosecution lawyer himself told Jonathan Goldbergs wife!!
Vehmeivin Yovin

Amusing. I answer point for point, Albeit a little rudely which I regretted and your response is "haters are gonna hate" talk about running off with fingers in your ears. Wow. Your entire last post was just on the defence. Actually if you read my posts I did concede the daughter was a crap witness and poorly prepared. Ummm you have no idea who I am.. I did not check my brain in at the door. There are certain things I knew and plenty of things I could not be sure of. I took the opportunity to comment because the points you were insisting wete true...were just not. I believe something happened to this daughter but im not bigheaded enough to think I know exactly what went down. I also think the trial was a shambles. An expert witness wasnt called to consult on young girl's frame of mind. Rm was not put on the stand, revealing info of behaviour from father to daughter. Other ppl who should have testified..were not called. And now cannot truth bc the game of law is throwing up obfuscation after obfuscation. Phone bills, building cupboards and laptops...it was like a game of connect four, the defence blocking the prosecution at every turn with talk of - you're orthodox, you keep the ninth commandment. .u would never bear false witness. The niece didnt even know what the ninth commandment was. This fallacy that jews keep all the tenth commandments..never lie to save their own skins, always honour rheir parents...never get jealous, was a laughable attempt at obfuscation and seemed to be lapped up by the jury. But was there any real conclusion whether something happened or not? Not at all.

Well I think a lil rude is an understatement! And that why I chose not to respond to anything you wrote!
Well you wrote that you were in court most days and that whittles it down to a very few people in th world and the way you are defending his present wife rather than anyone else gives me a very strong indication to who you are.
If you look at what I wrote right at the beginning I wrote 'that none of us know the truth but her side of the story was riddled with low and contradictions!
Did something happen? Very possibly! But from what I have read and heard (including her original and other police interviews she gave the girl seems deluded to a very high order and contradicted herself to the point where you just think to yourself I don't know why she is doing this but something just doesn't make sense whatsoever!
So again did it happen? No one knows besides then two. Do I think it happened? Base on real evidence I have read and only heresay I highly doubt it happenedz but that my opinion and I may be wrong.

To the one hi asked before but my dad still had the laptop. He never had it. It wa brought in February to England and was handed to the girls mother who handed it to the police. And I don't think he cared about zw giving evidence in court. As far as I know zw was the main one behind all the charges etc meaning brringijg the girl to the police and encouraging her etc. and he hadn't heard the other side of the story so my dad went to show him the other side of the story. And for your info he actually agreed that im there was alot of doubts am but his rabbi rav Cohen told him not to back down rather let the courts decide.

You werent there when i was there :) I stand corrected, you did indeed write that. Although there is the possibility that her state of mind is as a result of abuse and the outlandish story could be perhaps blindfolded one man saying was a few and intimating all kinds of scary things to keep her quiet.
As long as you take my above points into account where you went wrong i am more than happy to let you go on that ambiguous note. I do not wish to convince you of that which i do not know. ONly what i know.

Shame the actual trial was a bit shit then eh? :)

I hear you!
Well I'll be honest it was very stupid, but from my point of view the correct outcome was achieved and therefore IMO it was a successful one.
Although I'm gona be honest with you whether it was because of bribes or lies or whether it wa simply because she fantasised this whole thing, the prosecution didn't even try to prove or disprove any of the allegations! Most of its focus was disproving the possibly of conspiracy which that defence was using! Which I thought was a very bad tactic. (But I must add based on my understanding it was because they didn't have much else.) if you really believe they masterminded such an operation a she accused them of, do you really think they wouldn't leave anything incriminating? Nothing? On we all know he's not the brightest one around! (That's not why I'm saying he must be innocent) but I'm shocked that the prosecution didn't dig up anything to try and use against him.

Avi - what you write is interesting but second hand. You must have turned up to court 3 days out of 4 weeks?

And re ZW - he had zero doubts after 2 lie detectors and a 3 hour session with http://www.amazon.co.uk/David-J.-Lieberman/e/B001IO9LI4 he had no doubt at all that the CORE information what she was telling i.e. fact that YE and YK Raped her was true

Intheknow
If you call reading copies of interviews and alot of legal documents second hand then second hand it is.
He knows as well as you do that lie detectors are as good proof as opinions are.
Just that you should know (let's hope I don't get killed for knowing this and writing it) YK took a lie detector asking him all the questions and he passed every single question.
Anyone reading this can search online the accuracy of a FBI lie detector results and decide for themselves.

Avi you just said a lie.. Yk took a lie detector test consisting of just two questions., and in a lie detector test you have to ask obvious questions first eg.name, age and he did not.. Just two questions! However the girl had over ten questions and they did ask the obvious questions first... But nice try! Next time try harder..

Lovefortorah
I'm not gona sit here and say your a liar, I'm not a liar etc.
I'll tell you what u read, we are talking about a few weeks ago when I read all his questions and answers as I can't say 100% how many but if I would give a number it was a good 6 or 8 questions maybe more. (and I can say that as a fact.) so where you got the idea that it was only 2 questions I have no clue.
But that still doesn't help with the fact that it proven time and time again that its accuracy is very very poor. Especially with people who can act and lie well (which no one disagrees that she has done, as she has admitted to lying several times (again not saying that she lied about the whole story.))

To correct you a polygraph test has 90% validity..

I'm sure what you meant was a claimed 90% accuracy.
Let me counter that with a few articles.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygraph read the validity section.

http://www.skepdic.com/polygrap.html

https://antipolygraph.org/

And there are so many websites explaining to you how to beat it. So I find it hard to accept tht the ONLY shred of proof that anyone has is an alleged lie detector test. They have one piece of evidence which we all agree is possible to beat and lie to against multiple piece of evidence contradicting the story and you want to tell me ZW had no doubt the core was true!!

Sorry..u dont know ur facts yet again..she spent three hours with doctor liberman..the best in the world and knows how to tell when people lie or not.. and even he said this girl is saying the truth..so to aay the least you dont know everything..u dont even know half..your just a pathetic looser like tour father that protects people who hurt other people. What goes around comes around..youll get yours someday

Love for Torah
I don't think what i wrote has anything to do with lack of knowledge. im wondering if you are paying attention to points which I am mentioning or you are just hell bent on proving a point without thinking it thoroughly! No one is arguing that she passed her lie detector test, what I and many people worldwide are disputing is the fact that they are accurate!
You could sit there and call me a looser (loser) and my father one too but if you know the facts you will know that this is a very unbelievable story, yes lie detector no lie detector!
I saw this on Friday on a different blog and thought I would post it here. I'm not saying I know if every point is true but all these points are ones that where raised through the defence.

- Is it likely that the defendant could have repeatedly raped his daughter at her home (his ex-wife’s home) with her younger brother in the adjoining bedroom and the mother either in the house or, if out, liable to return at any time?
- Is likely that the defendant raped his daughter on numerous occasions, returning afterwards to his home with his new wife without first showering?
- Is it likely that despite being raped, the girl says, at least a hundred times by various men who, she says, used no protection, she never got pregnant?
- If, as she claims, she was subjected to extreme physical violence by her father – including having her head banged on a marble floor at her grandparents’ house - why were no bruises or injuries ever noticed by anyone?
- How could she have been raped by her father and his friend (co-defendant) at her grandparents’ house when, according everyone, the friend has never been to that house and the grandparents very rarely leave the house?
- Why did the girl expose herself to boys on webcam over Skype chat? (The jury was shown transcripts.) Why did she deny it?
- Why did the girl have hundreds of thousands of disgusting hard porn images on her laptop? Why did she visit hard porn websites while her father was in prison, being the period that she was progressively embroidering her story in discussion with her supporters in America?
- If, as she says, she was tortured by having a snake, a gerbil, a spiked metal ball inserted inside her, her clitoris cut (“it was agony, it bled”) and repeatedly raped vaginally and anally, how could the gynaecologist who examined her have reported no sign whatsoever of injury or abnormality?
- If, as she claimed, she was taken on dozens on occasions, blindfolded in the back of a car, to be gang raped, did no-one in an adjoining car notice?
- If, as she claimed, she was carried into a hotel, blindfolded, by her father, did the receptionist not intervene to ask what was going on?
- Why did bring the friend (co-defendant) into the frame for the first time only after he went to visit her father in prison?
- Why did she seek to incriminate two other men, one of whom had no connection whatsoever to either of the defendants? (Phone and computer were seized and entirely clean).
- Why, having identified the other man as a ginger-haired man working in the kitchen at the Park Lane Hotel and shown his photograph in court, did she say “that’s not him”? (There are no other ginger-haired men working there)
- She identified only two specific dates when gang-rapes took place – the first, her 16th birthday 14/3/2011 and the last 29/3/2012. Phone records and alibis showed conclusively that nothing could have happened on either of those dates.
- Why did she not once, either in taped police interviews or in court, show even the slightest trace of distress in recounting the alleged horrific events, nor the slightest trace of anger at being doubted?
- How could she have undergone such unbelievably appalling torture and abuse over a long period yet shown no sign of emotional distress to her mother, her teachers, her many friends?
- Why did she retract the accusations on several occasions (to teachers, to police) saying that she had made them up? Was it because, as she claimed, she had received unbelievably extreme threats (being sold for prostitution, her brother and another family member to be murdered) or just because it was so (that it was all a fantasy)?
- After she first made (milder) allegations of abuse to friends at school, she was seen many times over an 8 month period by a school counsellor who reported that her stories were ridiculous and totally inconsistent from one time to the next and that when challenged she changed the subject. The counsellor concluded that it was all fantasy and that the girl was just an attention-seeker.
- Why, when, in court, counsel sought information in cross-examination did she respond, in a single day, 93 times (they were counted) “I can’t remember” – unless she was being intentionally evasive.
- Why did she evade or lie so many times in the witness box even when there was really no need to do so – unless she is a compulsive liar?
- Why did the mother’s siblings disbelieve the accusations and not support the mother?
- Why, even after her father had been charged and imprisoned, did she tell her twin cousins (on separate occasions) that it was all made up and that her father had never touched her?

I would like to add one point that if this is really all true then explain to me this, in 2011 she begged her father to take her skiing in Switzerland and after much convincing he agreed to take her with her brother.
Do you really think a girl who was raped multiple times and was at that stage possibly gang raped (depends on which statement you go according to) all arranged by her father would ask him to take her on holiday????

sorry.. just because something is so awful does not make it unbeliveable.... half of those points were not actually said and are not even tru.. for instance she said it happened with other people around 15-20 times not a hundred.. dont think u know best and were you there when she begged to go to switzerland?? no i didnt think so, so you cant say she did

You are digging your own hole
! She said that she was raped sometimes as many as 4 times a week for over a 4 year period. Yes, granted noone ever branded the figure 100 but you do the maths!! I don't think that adds up to 20! I mean 8 men in one gang rape is all ready 8 times! C'mon you got to come up with something better than that.

And you are right that no one knows if she begged her father to take her or not. But sit there and listen to this, a girl had been raped multiple times by her father and possible gang raped arranged by her father, then her father randomly out of the blue offers her a skiing trip. Which girl in her right sane mind would agree to go with???
Seriously!
I've said it before and I'll say it again, no one knows and no one will ever know the true story but what she says doesn't add up and doesn't make sense at all!

Your seriously crazy!! U have no idea what ur on about.. They went skiing every year.. No surprises.. It was something they always did.. And what dye prefere she goes to Switzerland with her family and cousins and is much safer than being in London with other people raping her.. So think common sense!! And she didn't say she was raped for times a week.. U would know if u were in court everyday she spoke which u weren't bc I was and know that you were not.. So maybe go listen to the recording of it and rethink what ur actually saying next time before you continue talking out your ass!! It starts with her saying she was only raped starting at 15.. She's only 18 now and testified at 17.. DIY have some kind of time machine that can make two years into 4?? Sounds good to me.. Lmk how it works I'd like to try it!

Look, I'm not going to sit here and argue with you! You obviously have no idea whatsoever of the allegations that where made!
Her allegations where rape starting 4 years before she contacted the authorities, and in her interview she told the police that sometimes it was as many as 4 times a week. And since you where in court all the time, you are obviously connected to one of the sides, go ad ask them what the allegations where. Don't sit here and make a fool of yourself!
The JC article itself says that the rape started when she was 14!

And anyway lets say 2 years! It's still more than enough time to get raped well over 20 times! And therefore more than enough time for serious damage to happen to be noticed by a nurse and more than enough time to get pregnant so not really sure wat you are getting at!

Unanswered Questions:

what is your fathers interest in helping suspected peados in Manchester and London?
(unless as above he has a warped interest and perhaps in this particular field).

TG, Ruach and now these guys too?

YK has not yet returned from his well earned vacation....has he gone back to where he came from, or there a third location now where he is.

Are you aware of the number of boys that are now waiting to take the stand against him, Mr Ehrentrau will be busy for the next few years collecting funds for that case.

Account deleted
I have an answer for you but not one that I can be bothered to try and explain in written form.
Just for your info he has absolutely nothing to do with ruach, re TG he is a small cog in a big wheel. And this case he was approached by a rav to help them out in proving the truth. Just that you should know he was approached succos time which was way after the case started.and regarding YK he will be back soon in London and we will wait and see if what you say is true or not.
But that is completely irrelevant to the above subject whether they were guilty or the girl lied all the way through! And I think the above discussions have proven one way more than the other

Here I am again. I just found some comments so ridiculous and so inconclusive that you judgment has been veiled by these apparently 'unanswered questions'. I'm not standing here saying every one of her claims are 100% true, but I highly doubt they're completely unsubstantiated, and the defendants are certainly guilty to some extent. I'm also going say that the prosecution clearly failed to paint him as a pervert rather than just a pedophile which may in hindsight have stagnated the scope and believability of the accusations brought forward.

Anyways..

To answer each point.

If were discussing her being 'groomed' or him taking showers with her, then if the wife isn't home, a simple text or call asking her when she'll be home should give the father sufficient freedom for his timing, don't you think? And as for the younger brother, at the time he would have been what, 7 or 8? A little bit young to question why daddy would lock door when he's 'showering' his older sister.

Again if I'm correct, I don't think she claims she wasn't raped per se every time, but rather sexually abused (especially in her younger years). And uh, if its true that no protection was used, I highly doubt they would have found it challenging to get her to pop a pill (possibly unbeknownst to her)

Regarding visible injuries, many body parts aren't exactly exposed for others to see. One-off instances of head banging are perfectly explainable by any older child or teenager and don't need to be doubted and questioned if there's no suspect of abuse.

As for the grandparent never leaving the house - excuse me, but aspects of the grandmothers statements was clearly proven as untrue. She DID leave the house in evening and she tried to lie about it. And as for the friend who'd never been there, please, let's not go down that route where YK and YE 'never knew each other'. Utter bullshit.

As for the Skype chats and the porn images, again, this brings us back to the argument where much of the time she did not have laptop and it was left at family's house (who in case you need reminding, were on the defendants side - much to say about impartiality of their behalf, eh?). There's reasonable doubt of the authenticity and where the files originated from (planting seems rather likely).

As for genital injuries, the examination was done many months after the last reported abuse. Lets leave that as very much inconclusive.

The judge mentioned the part of her being carried into hotel ..take into account she's petite (could be mistaken for a sleepy child being carried) and these aren't exactly fancy hotels where the receptionist gives much of a damn or takes too much notice.

As for the other friends (whom had charges dropped). Firstly, one of them most certainly did have something to do with one of the defendants (again, like much in the community, its knowledge to those who know them) and 'phone were squeaky clean' ..do you have to be reminded as to how many different phones he had..

We keep going back to the alleged dates (assuming she's correct on them and that records are correct and real), alibis only highlight where their 'usual' phones were (not others, which lets be realistic, any lawbreaker will have a second - or third, fourth, fifth etc - phone) Lets see if those would match up.

As for signs of distress, please, we're not all qualified psychiatrist or psychologists, but if you took sometime to read about victims behaviour, hers is perfectly in line. And what about how she broke the news of her abuse, does that not show signs of emotional breakdown?

As for her retraction(s), please get your head out of your arse - she was being threatened. C'mon.

As for the school councillor, well, the need to cover her arse for not reporting to authorities (which she was legally required to) comes to mind.

'I can't remember' - wow, how many reasons need to be given to justify this - she was drugged, many events occurred when she was young, trying to put a mental block on her abuse ..

As for the mothers family (again, lets assume there's no ulterior motive - keeping a Jew out of jail, ahem, or incentives of sorts, shall we say), their statements were riddled with inconsistencies, lies (the twins lying - conveniently making a statement on the day - quite some time after allegedly being told apparently damning evidence by the victim). Many of what the family said we're blatant lies (vocation, being at home, last time they spoke to victim etc.). Again, a lot of which she 'told' her family that she had lied, if true, would almost certainly be said out of coercion. Are you seriously going to tell me in your right mind, that her father would have no force or clout on her?

He was found guilty on case regarding his step-children (I'm not going to argue on that case) but a witness was paid off; matter of fact. Still he was found guilty, please don't riddle me with excuses of him trying to get 'closer' or 'bond' with them.

Again, when recounting faces and places, accuracy cannot always be concrete and considering the trauma, this is expected - be it the 'ginger guy' or describing the 'hangout place' for these guys near Stamford Hill..

As for your added point regarding her skiing trip - how does your question even make sense to yourself?! She'd seen her father plenty of times since the abuse began and asked him for plenty (I can safely assume), was bought stuff by him, went our with him - this is the only 'strange event' you could come up with?! Victims who are abused by close family/friends communicate and interact with their abusers even on a daily basis and act 'normal׳. And does the fact that she wanted to go with her brother (even somewhat) make you ponder that maybe she felt safe when not alone with her father..?

What you fail to realise is that you're questioning all her 'inconsistencies' and brashly just calling her a liar; he's 'completely innocent'. Please.

Some have said she didn't come across as the most credible victim or witness for that matter. Maybe.
I've touched on this earlier and will reiterate once more on the lies, tampering and misrepresentations brought about by the defences' supporters (Rabbis covering themselves, 'fund raisers' who seemed a little too involved shall we say, character witness lying, false character witnesses and so on..). Whereas sometimes the statements, knowledge or beliefs are based upon hearsay, we know this can't hold up in court (just as with who helped TG flee - common knowledge, but can't be proven in court of law ..at the moment) and so we will live with the knowledge that an abuser(s) has swindled his way (not earned) to freedom. For now.

Notice how there's a pattern of 'reasonable doubt', but nothing beyond.

Just a side-point re lie-detectors, let me just inform you whether the defendants took 1, 10 or 1000 tests with infinite amount of questions, when the questions are scripted and they've been briefed, they're bound to pass with flying colours.
Finally, on the note of being asked by a Rav to help and prove the 'truth', I'll just assume that's a Rav who supports cover-ups and paying-off victims, because frankly no-one did and no-one does seem to know what the 'truth' is, this Rav included. Just another rabbi who wants his own kind kept out of jail .. 'We take care of our own'.

This is my last comment because I have no interest in sitting and arguing forever about this. I think I've made my points clear.

Well lets say you are right that a simple text to his wife would be suffice then answer to me this. We are talking about a very small petite 12/13 year old with a 7 year old and the mother went out leaving them alone at home (she has never mentioned that he babysat for her). Then she gets a text from her husband asking when she will be back, no alarm bells (even though he was accused in school of raping her) and do you think that a 7 yo boy wouldn't mention to his mother that his father had visited him ever??? and you think a 7 yo wouldn't mention that whilst she was out his father was upstairs whilst his sister was having a shower???!!!
C'mon you being serious??? A father showering his 12 yo sister? And her brother doesnt find anythinh wrong? We r not talking about mentally challenged kids!
There is no way a father could shower and sexually molest many times his daughter in his wife's own house without anyone ever mentioning or noticing anything! Who are you trying to fool!

Don't you really think that over a 4 year period he wouldn't have tripped up with a pill? I don't find that answer very plausible at all.

And regarding 'I don't know', or maybe it was because she's lying through her teeth.

If your daughter was regularly getting bruises etc in other homes wouldn't you question it? I mean she was subject to horrific abuse!

Re grandparents I don't know therefore wont comment. (If you read above I wrote that I just copy and pasted from a different blog)

If you are serious that the files wer planted etc. then why didn't the prosecution try and find out or at least mention it in court. Just btw ask any computer techie they will tell you it's fairly easy to find out if files wer planted or not! And If it was proven that it was planted me and you know that it would been thrown out of court, so don't say it's fairly likely when actually it's very very unlikely!!

Re injuries! Her medical report said that it didn't seem to be subject to heavy abuse, and they knew that the alleged incidents where from months before!
(I'll add in to this, there is a boy who was intimate with her around last winter and he was asked secretly if she was a virgin or not and if there was signs of abuse. He said that he doesn't know if she's a virgin or not because he hasn't managed to sleep with her but he could say for sure that she hasn't been abused. Now obviously this is no professional opinion or expert but it does give an indication!)

Re hotel fully agree

Re other people I don't know so wont comment.

Re dates! C'mon her dates she gives which was definite, HER phone was found in contradiction not his! Besides the fact that her dates which she was so sure of where found so contradictory that the jury themselves when she gave witness on the last day asked her about her contradictions. (I'm starting to think you don't know alot of the case, I don't know all of it but I seem to know alot more than you.)


You are right we are not professionals on detecting distress. But lets just recap, if all her points are true then this is one of the most horrific cases of abuse in England and the mother and friends and family didn't notice anything strange at all. I agree that this is no proof of anything but again a little strange.
And I don't think you are right about her behaviour being completely in line with the nature of her situation. If you would do a little digging into her state of mind in the last one and a half years around friends and around boys, you will know her state of mind and its nothing like a girl who was abused for many years! (And btw I have done my enquiries.)

She was being threatened? Even if she was, she said so many lies not even directely applicable to the case! I.e. she hates it in America/she loves it in America, she doesn't really know if its a big or small or nice jet (mr. rowes jet)/ but she had been in it!
Her statements in court wer riddled with inconsistencies! But that's only because under the supervision in America by the very wealthy rabbi w and very wealthy mr R she feels threatened by her poor father in London? C'mon gimme a break! Maybe she felt threatened in London so her rabbi had to come with, but in America she feels threatened????
I don't know but I highly highly doubt it!

Re councillor in school, why in the world would you report it to the police if the girl herself denies it and after speaking to the mother and monitoring her for months you don't see any proof to her allegations.

Regarding family, whether they said lies or not is for them to answer. What I do know is that most if them sided with the girl and her mother (I personally heard this from one of the brother in laws I am close with) until they started doing abit of digging and starting to have doubts on the whole story.

Regarding the other case me and you will never agree on that one. So not going to go into it

About recognising people and places when something happens to you often you usually remember it but very possible that its all just a blur and therefore can't remember details, I accept that one.

Re her skiing trip I'll agree with you that victims will continue with normal life but don't try and fool me by saying that they will actively go out of their way to be with them (Stockholm syndrome) I don't buy that!
Lets think about what's going on, he has abused and raped her for close to three years, she's suffering inside all on her own and trying to get on with life. She has possibly been gang raped by upto 8 peope by then, with her father being one of the organisers and allegedly been subject to horrific abuse, one time she was so scared she ran away and jumped over a 6/8ft fence. Now this girls friends are wealthy and go skiing so she thinks she wants to go. She thinks you know what, my dad who has continuedly abused me at any moment he can get me hands on me alone (even when my brother is in the house) he's the perfect person to take me on holiday!
Are you serious???!!!! I think someone else should be taking their head out of their behind!
I'll take it that she didn't show any signs of avoiding him im front of others but to go away with him with a brother who has shown is incompetent in protecting her is just either damn right stupid and she should get evaluated or its places strong doubts in these allegations.

She didn't come across as not so credible she came across as a confident liar who tripped herself over so many times

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't know the truth and for all I know it could all be true, but the stuff that has been proven as fact and stuff that has been said just doesn't add up to give this story any credibility at all!

Re lie detectors if you want to say that the clinic in London that tested in him briefed him etc then I'll say the same thing about her lie detector! No one really knows any truth from these lie detectors!

And re rav asking him to help its your opinion against mine so not gona argue with you on that.

At the end of the day, you can ask anyone that knows me ill be the first person to want to lock up and punish someone who has done wrong. And I personally at the beginning when I found out about the case argued at home that it must be true, why would she make such claims etc.
but when you start to see the lies, the inconsistencies, the way which rabbi w was working with this case, I've personally heard recordings of stuff he's said which if made public would be very interesting and the way only this girl out of all the girls is personally looked after by mr R (trips on his jet, on his yacht, presents galore, hitting the town till 3 in the morning) something doesn't feel just right about this whole case.

Clearly avi..u have absolutely no idea what you are saying..u couldntbe more incorrect about so many things..u sound v stupid

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