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May 26, 2013

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David

++++Sounds like the author of this article has major problems and should seek help - and quickly!

Posted by: David | May 26, 2013 at 02:53 AM++++

Sounds like the frumma who see pre-pubescent girls as sexually-enticing, thus demanding modesty standards of them, are the ones with the real problem.

(The Real David.)

jancsibacsi

The Real David--Right you are,theese rabbi want to dump their vile thoughts unto theeveryone else their dont tolerate absolutly nothing when it comes to seeing parts of a female and the many molesters among them they protect as a 10 year old i was fondled in the mikva by our moel and shohet in the town i used to live in europe theese uber religious fanatics are beyond the pale they are the lowest scum on this earth and they want to dictate to thers shamelessly their lifestyle animals is what they are who cannot control themselfs ship them out to an isolated island and let them fend for themselfs.

Account Deleted

Very interesting points raised here.

Primitive cultures continue to view, and often exploit minors for sexual purposes. This is not unique to The jewish Ultra Orthodox crowd.

Ironically, one of the greatest contributions to the morality of mankind,came from those who started to question the authenticity of the Bible.

Despite the horrors committed on mankind from secular ideologies such as Communists and Nazis, etc., the secular introduced the world to a widespread recognition of the rights of each individual. This certainly helped identify and generally shun, in the West at least, the exploitation of the minor for sex, and the focus on women purely as sex objects.

Taking away the rights of any individual, such as exploitation of a minor for sexual purposes, is certainly immoral and criminal. Defining perversion is more of a cultural bias.

If the Ultra Orthodox focused more intently on preservation of the rights of every individual, morality and genuine good will to all Man, they would be less juvenile and much healthier with regards to how they view and treat females of any age.

Jeff

Sounds like the author of this article has major problems and should seek help - and quickly!

Posted by: David | May 26, 2013 at 02:53 AM
_________________________________________

You should seek help and quickly.

Barry

Koby Niv is mistaken. Haredi 'modesty' in little girls is intended to socialize them when they get older to accept Hareidi misogyny as normal and just as imortantly to be emotionally uncomfortable in society in general were they would be seen as strange if not deviant and will therefore become isolated from general society. Socialization works best if you start with infants as they are far more vulnerable to indoctrination. It is like peyos for little boys. A boy with peyos can never be comfortable with 'goyishe kinder' and because he never learnt how to interact with goyim as a boy, he will never have the emotional tools to be able to interact with them as a man.

In Hareidi communities not only are superstition and ignorance firmly entrenched, but where this goes hand in hand with the imposition of repressive regimes of social and inter-personal conduct—in relation to hygiene, diet, dress, sex, gender roles, marriage arrangements, and so on and all providing an intellectual and cultural dungeon for those who live among them. Almost no one who was not brought up this way volunteers to adopt this faith later in life so one can be certain that that most people who have been brought up as members of a extreme sect would, if they only knew what they are being denied, have preferred to be outside it.
Yet the belief system of the Ultra Orthodox survives when everything else seems to be against it because its devotees are obsessed with indoctrination and socialization of children.

Groups threatened by cultural extinction, must indoctrinate their offspring if they want to preserve their unique heritage. Socialization of the very young is one of the most potent forms of social control. As cultural values slip into the child’s mind, they become personal values—embedded in conscience and governed by emotions.

Socialization describes a process which may lead to desirable, or 'moral', outcomes in the opinion of said society. Individual views on certain issues, are influenced by the view of the society at large and become a "normal," and acceptable outlook or value to have within a society. Socialization is the process by which human infants begin to acquire the skills necessary to perform as a functioning member of their society, and is the most influential learning process one can experience. For example, the British are socialized not to eat horsemeat and think is gross while for the Poles this is a meat source no different from any other. Recently the British were outraged to discovered that horsemeat was being substituted for beef in processed foods imported from Poland while the Poles could not understand what the big deal was. The British can not give an intellectual argument as to why eating horse is worse than eating cow, however socialization gives rise to an even stronger emotional response ('Yuk, gross!') as to why it is deviant.

Haredi society puts great effort in making little boys and little girls look different from normal members of society so as to socialize them to be isolated from outside influence. Dress a little boy in the uniform of the Hasidim, curl his side-locks, subject him to strange dietary taboos, make him spend all weekend reading the Talmud, tell him that gentiles or the non frum are dirty and to be avoided and when he becomes an adult he will in all likelihood be more emotionally attached to those views than intellectually and will be as uncomfortable in the company of a gentile as an American served dog in a Korean restaurant.

Tznius is misogynistic nonsense. However it does make Jewish women uncomfortable in the non-Haredi world so it does serve an important function in keeping women within Haredism. Jewish females must be socialized to see tznius as 'normal' and the process of socialization always starts with infants. That is why sweet little girls are dressed in stockings. It is to emotionally damage these little girls and make them 'social deviants' when they get older, so that they feel uncomfortable accept among their own.

It is easy for a woman brought up with Western values to see the nonsense in tnzius rules. It was much harder for women such as Deborah Feldman and Pearlperry Reich to do so because for them it was an emotional as well as an intellectual challenge

Runner1983

David, I would like to hear your views on child sexual abuse in some haredi communities. Please read the following:

There is overwhelming anecdotal data to indicate that the incidence of child sexual abuse in some haredi communities is much higher than in other haredi communities, and in the non-haredi Jewish community.

Victims and their families are told not to go to the police to report the crime, and when they do, they are vilified, threatened and shunned by their community, all with the approval of their rabbi. This protects the accused, and he is left free to continue to abuse other children.

These Haredim are more interested in protecting their cultural norms than in protecting their children. Why? What is wrong with these communities and their rabbis, who serve in leadership positions? There is no other culture in the world where this takes place. This is an aberrant culture. Shame on them.

David, what is your view on child sexual abuse within some segments of the haredi community?

Account Deleted

Great post Barry.

jancsibacsi

Barry-You are brilliant as always:).

Turd Degree

Posted by: Barry | May 26, 2013 at 07:49 AM

I would just add that the systematic poisoning, err, conditioning of these young minds is given the harmless-sounding name of "chinuch."

WoolSilkCotton; I must be seen to be believed

Barry, kudos.

Jeff

Barry, you're absolutely right. Again, these are the reasons it must be viewed as a form of child abuse, and put a stop to - forcibly, if necessary.

rocky

I suspect that most Haredi are Vitamin D deficient since they get so little exposure to the sun and probably don't take Vitamin D supplements. There are lots of web sites that discuss Vitamin D. Here is one that links to many others: http://www.stargateuk.info/vitamind/

Runner1983

To all those haredi apologists who defend their cultural norms regarding child sexual abuse, please respond and share your views on the following:

There is overwhelming anecdotal data to indicate that the incidence of child sexual abuse in some haredi communities is much higher than in other haredi communities, and in the non-haredi Jewish community.

Victims and their families are told not to go to the police to report the crime, and when they do, they are vilified, threatened and shunned by their community, all with the approval of their rabbi. This protects the accused, and he is left free to continue to abuse other children.

These Haredim are more interested in protecting their cultural norms than in protecting their children. Why? What is wrong with these communities and their rabbis, who serve in leadership positions? There is no other culture in the world where this takes place. This is an aberrant culture. Shame on them.

Eli, what me messiah?

Barry, excellent and insightful as always. Thanks for taking the time.

D

Barry
Re: western values…values and def. of is a “culturally defined” standard of what is desirable. The overwhelming population decides. Not all. There will always be dissent about what some call desired values. Some place some values over the culturally defined. As though Western values, for women are an improvement. Noting number of BT’s, which most people are excluding, searching for something perhaps other than a society defined by Western Values. Your definition of values. The number of women living in poverty as head of household has increased two fold, where marriage or lack of has relegated an entire population of women into poverty. Men do not have to get married any longer. Their values also have changed. And marriage and sanctity of suffers. Of course, there is always your “planned parenthood”….. (and one wonders why the Arab and the Haredi population has and will double and triple). The high percentage of women suffering from anorexia, glancing at a magazine or billboard selling what (?) as example. The sanctity and respect for women, or as a sex object. Looking at the article in which it is written would make one assume it is only a haredi problem, looking at Western Values and or lack of and statistics of violence against women and children, is not as a whole relegated only to this community. The number of rapes and assault against women has increased two fold. (check the sexual assault registry, 11219 and which community is most prevalent). The problems that occur, and the nature of men, is not exclusive to this one community. Obviously written as a man, as though western values were so far advanced and a sought after “value system”. Perhaps by you. Some people try to dissuade this issue by other means. The onus is put on women..not necessarily should be. It should be the men, that guard their eyes and thoughts and one of those ways it has been mentioned is Torah study. But there is always, the nature of human beings. How do you deal with that, this is just one way. Of course the nature of FM is as it will be. Excluding the general population in general as usual. There is nothing wrong with tzniut, or modesty, especially in the world we live in, and the nature of men and the growing lack of values, and values women place for themselves.…

Moshe

What Rubbish! Teaching girls to dress modestly is pedophilia?! How warped can people be?

There is no higher incidence of pedophilia among chareidim than among the rest of the population. "Anecdotal data" has no scientific value. I'm sure that the incidents are much less due to the teachings of the torah and tzenius.

jancsibacsi

Moshe--How warped can someone be to perform mbp its all interconnected even bris mihlah according to the goyim is cruel mutalation how warped can that be and you with youre nonsensical toyreh are the one warped the rest of the world is normal compared to the cult of hassidism where the extreeme is the norm you better open up youre eyes and brin to see reality.

Jeff

>There is no higher incidence of pedophilia among chareidim than among the rest of the population. "Anecdotal data" has no scientific value.

Yeah, neither has "stuff I want to be true".

Bas Melech

Teaching that 3 year old girls need to be modest because seeing them could lead to an avayrah is a form of pedophilia. I am not saying that they walk around unclothed, but should not be required to cover the body the way a grown woman does. Stoning young girls in Beit Shemesh proves that many chardi men have pedophilia related thoughts.

Since I am a woman, I really don't know what a healthy man thinks when he sees females. It seems to me that only post puberty females should arouse sexual thoughts in males.

Jeff

Runner, I saw your a couple of your exchanges at the Forward with that "lemondrop" character. I wasted my time briefly with him, myself. What a piece of work.

Jake24

Fascinating article!!!! Thank you Barry for your amazing post!!!!

Yochanan Lavie

Extremes are bad. Little girls are sexualized when they dress like hookers, but they are also sexualized when they are told their bodies are so sinful that they must cover up every inch. The kol isha crap, and the use of little boys as sopranos, sexualizes boys, as well. Those choirs are creepy, and there is nothing sexual about a woman singing a religious song.

Abracadabra

Barry - Excellent in the extreme!!

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