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April 12, 2013

Video: Why Does Rachel Have To Prove She Is Jewish?

RachelShe grew up keeping kosher and Shabbat. She has always been Jewish. Then she made immigrated to Israel, and suddenly a lifetime of Judaism is pushed aside by government bureaucrats and haredi rabbinic policy.

 

[Hat Tip: Joel Katz.]

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If your grandparents died in the Shoah, and their documents were destroyed, how can one prove one is halachically Jewish? Meanwhile, pagan superstitions and even a dead Messiah-Rebbe are Jewish?

When you think about it, it is really odd to have a religion where OTHERS decide what you believe. In most religions, the person defines him or herself - they just declare their belief in that god and follow the religious laws, and that makes you a believer. Allowing others to define you can be troublesome.

Shmaya, could you please post the original URL. Every time I go to play this video it whites out a minute in to playing. Thank you.

Time to take this out of the hands of the orthodox rabbinate. There are serious doubts about their judgement.

I always wondered about the frumka in my shul once in a while, come to find they are converts, two of them. Upon research come to find out, there are more than several. And more than several in Israel. Wondered why they felt they had to do things this way. Thinking perhaps wrongly...who knows...it was the perception of Orthodox converts in Israel, and elsewhere. And how they are viewed, and so many that were not sincere. As though there had to be an outward appearance of such piety for anyone to take anyone seriously. They have to stand before the Interior Ministry in shawls, before anyone theoretically will take anyone serious. I’ve been fighting them for over a year. And will again.

This has nothing to do with halacha. This is all about power. The rabbinate wants to have everyone appear before them and audition for "Jew"...and THEY will decide if you pass. If you don't meet their requirements (whatever they happen to be) too bad.

Limpieza de sangre thrives.

Reuvan - it's like the Mission Impossible recordings, self-destructing in 5 seconds.


קשים גרים לישראל כספחת, מפני שרובם חוזרים בשביל איזה דבר כל שהוא ומטעים את ישראל קדושין ע -

This is a logical extension of power. First, no conversion was good enough for them. Now, "natural-born" Jews aren't good enough Jews for them, even if you come with photographs of 4 generations of tombstones. They want to examine your kitchen, your clothing. Probably want you to pull your pants down as well.

My first reaction is F. U.
So are my 2nd, 3rd, and 4th reactions.

I second the video player problem. The ads play just fine, then the video blanks out just as the interview segment begins.

Interesting story. Some questions to ponder post Pesach 5773...

What role should the 150,000 sq.m. trapezoid platform in the midst of the Old City play in the fulfilliment of the prophecy of turning all people to G-d ?

Should the monotheistic faiths be the vanguard of the Messianic Redemption ?

“When you think about it, it is really odd to have a religion where OTHERS decide what you believe. In most religions, the person defines him or herself - they just declare their belief in that god and follow the religious laws, and that makes you a believer. Allowing others to define you can be troublesome.
Posted by: Dov | April 12, 2013 at 07:48 AM “

[I have not been able to watch the video, since it blocks out several seconds into the video…]
Dov, according to Halacha, it makes absolutely not difference what someone believes (or doesn’t believe) in. it makes no difference what you consider yourself, how you choose to live your life or how you were brought up.

The only important factors are: Either your mother was halachicly Jewish, or you converted in accordance with halacha.

Welcome back Adam! Have you returned from France?

"...The only important factors are: Either your mother was halachicly Jewish, or you converted in accordance with halacha...."

No, you left something out: the fact that halacha is whatever the Haredi greybeard of the day says it is - and that makes it a moving target. Good Lord how I loathe those religious prigs.

Search Jewish Agency Fast Track Conversions. Not dated. R'Yosef did not pull the wording out of thin air. Many of these new potential olim, cannot provide proof (historical documentation)lineage ie: questionable. Many are spouses of Jews. Which led to being suspicious of those providing documentation, also, many documents were fictional from Russia. I would assume could be part of the reason. I don't speak Hebrew well, so not sure if it might have been brought up. It's a shame all around.

I've long said it's the mid-level employees, often not religious (even working in the Interior Ministry on Shabbat). I still think they are given a bonus for every applicant they successfully turn away. I have seen a pattern, and it is the same one that is playing out here.

Posted by: kreplich | April 12, 2013 at 10:44 AM

Asshole. Keep your drashot for the rabbis who naturalized her as a Jewess. She already converted, now there is a precept to embrace her. Your quote is regarding policy of receiving potential converts, not existing Jews. It has no place for someone who is already Jewish.

Posted by: S M L | April 12, 2013 at 11:46 AM

I don’t believe your statement is accurate. Yes, regarding conversion, there may be differences how some Beth Din’s require that that the potential convert follow certain criteria to prove their sincerity, (period of time, the community where they live etc etc.). But the underlying factor is clear, to be Jewish, one needs to either be born to a Jewish mother, or be converted Halachicly (and for a Beth Din to convert someone, they must be convinced of the individuals sincerity (again, here you may find differences as to what specific Rabbis consider satisfactory to be persuaded on the person sincerity…).

For those who do not know conversion at a young age is conditional..

The child when older can reject the conversion

Every yer non orthodox jewsmoveto israeel and are not asked about sabbath observance.

Nothing wrong with verifying that a person who was converted as a infant decided to live a observant life as a adult. Thus taking a affirmative step in accepting the conversion.

Conversion of children are provisional.

I did not watch the video.
My comment was based on the article found at Nana10.

"Welcome back Adam! Have you returned from France?

Posted by: Maskil | April 12, 2013 at 11:42 AM"
_______________________________________________

Maskil, I have to tell you that I find it *deeply* offensive that you choose to validate that lunatic.

Jake –

I dont know where or if you actually learned, but please stop paskining when you know nothing or next to nothing about an issue.

An infant converted has the opportunity to opt out of Judaism at the age of majority – 12 for a girl and 13 for a boy.

If the child does not opt out then, the child is Jewish just like you are Jewish and remains Jewish in perpetuity – even if at age 19 or 29 or 69 the person decides to eat pork and break Shabbat.

There is no obligation that this infant lead a perfectly Torah-observant life after the age of majority in perpetuity.

Stop plepling.

Worked great! Thank you "Der Kalter Yid".

Posted by: S M L | April 12, 2013 at 11:46 AM

I don’t believe your statement is accurate. Yes, regarding conversion, there may be differences how some Beth Din’s require that that the potential convert follow certain criteria to prove their sincerity, (period of time, the community where they live etc etc.). But the underlying factor is clear, to be Jewish, one needs to either be born to a Jewish mother, or be converted Halachicly (and for a Beth Din to convert someone, they must be convinced of the individuals sincerity (again, here you may find differences as to what specific Rabbis consider satisfactory to be persuaded on the person sincerity…).

Posted by: S M L | April 12, 2013 at 11:46 AM

I don’t believe your statement is accurate. Yes, regarding conversion, there may be differences how some Beth Din’s require that that the potential convert follow certain criteria to prove their sincerity, (period of time, the community where they live etc etc.). But the underlying factor is clear, to be Jewish, one needs to either be born to a Jewish mother, or be converted Halachicly (and for a Beth Din to convert someone, they must be convinced of the individuals sincerity (again, here you may find differences as to what specific Rabbis consider satisfactory to be persuaded on the person sincerity…).

Would they have turned away Elizabeth Taylor?

"Nothing wrong with verifying that a person who was converted as a infant decided to live a observant life as a adult. Thus taking a affirmative step in accepting the conversion."

Conversion of children are provisional."

Jake, I second Shmarya's response. While your last sentence is technically accurate, there has to be an act of mi'un (מיאון) at the age of mitzvoth, without that that it's too late, as it is for anyone who signed a contract or accepted the yoke of mitzvoth once before a bet din. There does not have to be an act of acceptance. Even if she had been turned over to Christian parents, she was the responsibility of the bet din that naturalized her (על דעת בין הדין) and the absence of official rejection seals the deal and she's Jewish. meila if they had grilled the mother's sincerity (in the absence of a letter from the officiating bet din), but a kid? It's a done dealואין מה לדון.

While the analyst with the kippa from the news said it's about hegemony within the Orthodox community, he erred in stating that this case is unique and deserves more grilling questioning. It's the other way around.

Video did not work. If someone wants to confirm she is jewish by birth and needs to see the ketubah, it better be a big deal such as a marriage.

I did not watch the video but I had a hard time extending my work visa in the "Misrad Hapnim" when I worked in Tel Aviv. I had to get a letter from a rabbi certifying that I'm Jewish [I'm Ashkenazi with a beard and payos] and submit passport type photos, at the time I was extremely disappointed with the hoops they put me through.

ok, first of all, the video posted by
Der Kalter Yid, in Hebrew works fine, and has no distortion, see above, Shenit, the problem is not just with the Talibanim, there is a vile inyan of power here, down to the lowest level of pekida.
I experienced this years ago in getting my teudat zehut. they run you around ragged, and then, at noon on yom shishi, tell you, just one


more thing, you rush off and get it done, and come back, and they say, you still need a photo . but but you said, that was all, and then BEAMING With SATISFACTION, THE BITCH SAYS, YES THAT WAS THEN, THIS IS NOW.
Same thing here. the need and desire for power filters down from the abuses at top, to the attempts at abuses on city levels, loss off civil rights and liberties, all the way down to the village bldg inspector and his clerk. It spread here from Israel, it did.
At least Rachel won't have to do army service. someone said the cutoff for new olim is 23, for females, not sure if that is accurate. she may have lucked out.

Guess they are not worried about shidduch.
The ahole pekidot, did NOT ask her what kind of tablecloth they used on Shabbos.
Points for misrad ha pnim.

kreplich,shame on you!

Plepling? I plepl, you plepled, s/he plepls, they are plepling.

Google Ephraim Kishon and read some of his articles from the fifties through the seventies on Israeli life and the beauracracy. Also,you might want to check out his movie from the seventies called the Big Hole.it might explain some of the conduct in this article and experienced by several commenters.

she looks too clean, too neat , too perfect ,and too skinny to be jewish to the eyes of the orthodox community .
she does not 'look' jewish bc of that . they have their 'doubts'.

that's why she is in trouble .

if she would have had a neglected appearance , fat and out of shape . the ortho community and their f***ked up rabbis would have taken for granted she is jewish .

The Charedim are altering the whole basis of what it means to be Jewish. It was once considered that if you are Halachically Jewish AND accepted as such then that was the end of it. There was no intention or desire to follow family trees to the beginning of time. Now the Charedim can retrospectively find someone not Jewish so we have no certainty any more. They are destroying our religion.

King David wouldn't be Jewish according to the charedi rabbis. I think if we look far enough, no one would be deemed as Jewish enough.

I am really getting tired of the Orthodox interpretation of what it is to be a Jew, as if that is the only opinion. I have no problem with people converting Reform, Conservative or other. Since when did this group get to decide what being Jewish is for the rest of us?

"King David wouldn't be Jewish according to the charedi rabbis. I think if we look far enough, no one would be deemed as Jewish enough. "
Niether would Avraham Aveinu (he did not have 3 frum witnesses to his conversion and did not follow halicha based on modern standards. And for the record, neither would any of the matriarchs be considered Jewish, as they had no formal conversions, and therefore, there descendents cannot be viewed as truly Jews.

Since the name Rachel is a direct translation of the Hebrew
רחל
why does the Hebrew headline and all the subtitles transform her name into something like "Reitzel?"

(Sorry for the typing; my keyboard is a bit funky with the two languages switchover.)

In every country, nation, tribe, or klan, there is always one recognized opinion as to what membership or citzenship will be. There is typically one legal council, and one judge or judging institution. Declarations before is judge it typical. Every is used to these concepts, and familiar with them. I think most people understand this and accept it. Why suddenly with Israel, we are supposed to have many opinions, or many ruling bodies that will confirm citizenship and the standards between the so-called governing bodies are not even consistent.

Now, I certainly can understand that someone will think one governing body is wrong, and they will fight to have their governing body take its place. I do not expect agreement at the outset. But I do not see how suddenly everyone acts like this idea of a single opinion for who is a member of the Jewish nation is somehow out of bounds.

Before anyone decides what the final ruling will be, everyone should first admit that at the end of the day, there will be only one ruling that will finally be settled on.

If there is to be one Jewish Nation, there will be one standard as to what determines membership. This is just common sense.

Once this obvious point is admitted to, then, and only then, can a conversation take place as to what the one common standard will be. That common standard could have many threads, and could recognize many different rabbinical groups, but it will be *one* total rule.

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