Flatbush Yeshivas Ban Students From Avenues J & M

Yeshivas and seminaries in the Flatbush neighborhood of Brooklyn have banned all of their students from going to Avenues J & M on Saturday nights.

Originally posted at 11:23 pm CDT 4-2202013

Comments

[Lo K'darkah]

I'm confused. First they are for metzitzah b-peh in Flatbush; now they're against it.

[Larry]

Some philanthropist should buy them all tickets to Avenue Q.

[(The other) Eli]

God forbid these students exercise their freedom of movement on their own time. Thank God the school is diligent enough to bring this pressing matter to light so young adults don't succumb to immorality.
They should spend their extra time learning toyreh....like how to cheat the government, rape people and give head to babies. Soon enough, they can be truly holy bnei toyreh, just like their rabbis.

[torah umesorah]

BH We still have Rabbis that are Ehrlich Yiden let's hope Moshiach should come in their zechus

[ali]

Avenue J . . . isn't that where Touro College is? Are the likes of Touro College students too radical & liberal?

[David]

So who is going to be on these avenues to police this policy?

[under duress]

Brooklyn is no place for a Jew.

[Keith]

Around six or so years ago, Natanya Pizza on Avenue J had "separate seating" on Saturday nights, with only boys/men being allowed in the upstairs section. I always wondered if that was due to Rabbinical/School pressure- the owners and managers of that store were not Charedi at all. I guess this answers that question- it almost surely was due to such pressure, and now "separate seating areas" are no longer enough.

If anyone reading this knows which schools sent their parents/students this note, please post.

[Shlomo1]

Why no mention of a בת ישראל is there any such person?

[Shlomo1]

Sorry I meant to ask - Is there any such person as a בת תורה?

[MosheCohen]

What's wrong with this?

[AE]

These policies were in place when I was growing up in the 80's.

[Dov]

They don't want students on those streets because the teachers don't want their students to catch them going with prostitutes.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Particulars, please: which yeshivas promulagated this? Or perhaps it's a hoax from the pizza joints on Aves K and L?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Suppose you live on those streets- they're partially residential. Should you move?

[Yerachmiel Lopin]

A local I trust who is pretty open minded and modern and rails against most haredi nonsense writes to me: "Its the hangout for the dropout kids - drug activity, hookups, gang-style violence, I kid you not."

[Yochanan Lavie]

Apologies to: Jammin' by Bob Marley:

Oy vey; nu, Gevalt!
We're J & M
I'm on the lam it wid you.
We're J & M, J & M
And I hope you are a naughty Jew.

There's new rules, by rabbis' power, we can do it anyhow
I and I will see you through,
'Cause everyday we pay the price
But we refuse to be scared mice
J & M on the lam is cool

We're J & M -
To think that pizza was a thing of the past;
We're J & M,
And I hope the lam is gonna last.

No chumra can stop us now, we will not beg like kollel pals;
Neither will we be a "yold."
We all defend the right; Hashem's children must unite:
Frum life is starting to grow mold.

We're J & M (J & M 3x)
And they're scammin' in the name of the L-rd;
We're J & M (J & M 3x),
We're scrammin' away from laws.

Yeh! Holy Mount Zion;
Holy Mount Zion:
Jah sitteth in Mount Zion
Which isn't in Brooklyn.

Yeah, we're - we're J & M (wotcha-wa),
Wotcha-wa-wa-wa, we're J & M (wotcha-wa),
See, I'm on the lam wid you
We're J & M (J & M 3x)
I've scrammed: I hope you're on the lam, too.

J & M's about my pride and felafel on the side
To keep me satisfied.
True love that now exist is not on a shidduch list,
So scram by my side.

We're J & M (J & M 3x), oy vey!
I'm on the lam it wid you...
(etc. till stop)

[sk]

These zealots are hurting the kosher businesses open on motzei Shabbat.

[Az]

Which institution published this letter?

[SMR]

As a Rav told me recently...

Most of today's senior charedi roshei yeshiva met girls while shmoozing on the park benches in frum neighborhoods and eventually met their wives that way. These are the same roshei yeshiva who today forbid their students from shoozing with frum members of the opposite sex today.

(And they wonder why there is a shidduch crisis.)

The Rav I refer to know what he is talking about. He's a peer/colleague of those roshei yeshiva and attended their engagement parties and weddings "back in the day".

[Unorthodox Yidden]

Shamarya, do you know which schools sent this letter out?

[three_oaths]

If this edict is real and was issued by a real Yeshiva or Seminary, this is a disturbing sign of Haredi censorship and cult-like, authoritarian behavior. What are the boys and girls supposed to do on motza'ei Shabbos, sit around with a piece of Talmud or other text for 24 hours? Whoever produced this edict is infantile and immature, because young men and women need time to relax and outlets for exploration and socializing, not be cooped up like little kids. There's nothing wrong with going out for some pizza or Chinese food during the long Saturday nights from October to March.

These Yeshiva heads are too thick-skulled to realize that if you keep young people cooped up with no outlet to unwind, it will result in stress, brainwashing, and thuggish behavior. And how dare these Yeshiva heads try to prevent young men and women from socializing when they themselves met their wives that way!

How do they plan to enforce this policy? Through hiring snoops who follow all their talmidim around? What pricks Rabbis can be!

[Frank]

I always thought that Flatbush Yeshiva was very modern, my has time changed!

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

An acquaintance of mine has a 13 year old son who went to Ave M (I believe by a 7-11 or some store like that) and started drugs. I don't think its just hang outs, there are lots of illegal stuff that go on there. This may actually be a good thing that the haredim are doing - trying to prevent their kids from illegal adult activities.

High school kids - we're talking underage teens. Not such a bad idea after all.

[charif]

Unorthodox Yidden
Its called S&M call them and give them a piece of your shit mind here is the number 1800eatshit

PS put some charif so you can fortz easier

[Rakhel]

They want us to stay away from Yeshivah of Flatbush on Shabbat? No problem. Where do you want to catch the Q train? Ave J or Ave M?

[ruthie]

it's probably like the parks and 7-11 here.
there are kids that i wouldn't want my sons to hang out with.
no doubt. none.
but there is a pizza place that soooooooooo many good kids congregate on motzei shabbos.
it's packed.
it's a meeting place.
it's a club.
saturday night. it rocks.
g-d forbid a school would say don't hang out there.
there would still be good kids there that do not attend said school
but the real losers would be the kids in said school...here you have a safe and
kosher place.
local.
doing nothing but eating and talking and smiles all around.
this is a bracha from g-d.

[Russian PhD]

What’s wrong with J and M? May be it’s because of Jesus and Maria?

[Russian PhD]

Especially if you say Ave(nue) M(aria) Rachmono Litzlan.

[Sarek]

[if you're non-US or under 50, ignore this post]

Why not Aves. L&M? Or did they get kicked out for smoking?

[Russian PhD]

“… and other AVENUES have become places where בן תורה or בת ישראלshould not, and cannot, be found”.
If I understand it correctly, any public place called “avenue” is forbidden for Kosher Jews
I have further suggestions:
“Streets” should be allowed only for males
“Parkways” only for females
“Parks” for Cohanim only
Etc etc etc

[flatbush anon]

It's from mesivta toras emes

[Sarek]

Good one YL

("Electric Avenue", Eddy Grant)

Boychik! Boychik!
Down on those streets there is reality
This is a place you should shun
No place for yeshiva boychickles
We can’t let you have fun, oh no

You must avoid it on J&M Avenue
We’re afraid you’ll get high
You must avoid it on J&M Avenue
Or else the school says “good-bye”

Workin’ so hard readin’ Torah
Can’t watch anything on TV
I spend my days davenin’
Won’t find a job to feed my kids, good God

Oh no
Oh no
Oh no
Oh no

You must avoid it on J&M Avenue
We’re afraid you’ll get high
You must avoid it on J&M Avenue
Or else the school says “good-bye”

Who is to blame in yeshiva
Never can best Reb Akiva
Talmud shows us black is white
And Rabbi acts like a diva, oh no

You must avoid it on J&M Avenue
We’re afraid you’ll get high
You must avoid it on J&M Avenue
Or else the school says “good-bye”

Out in the street
Can’t be on concrete
Out where it’s real
I’d be a schlemiel

You must avoid it on J&M Avenue
We’re afraid you’ll get high
You must avoid it on J&M Avenue
Or else the school says “good-bye”

Stay away in the daytime
Stay away in the night

[Joe Field]

Posted by: Lo K'darkah | April 22, 2013 at 11:32 PM

My understanding is that they are ok with metzitzah b-peh, (BJ) there concern is with Lo K'darkah anal sex.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, and back at ya, Sarek.

[A Parent]

Yerachmiel Lopin said:

"A local I trust who is pretty open minded and modern and rails against most haredi nonsense writes to me: "Its the hangout for the dropout kids - drug activity, hookups, gang-style violence, I kid you not."

Yerachmiel is absolutely right. I have an at-risk teenage son who hangs out on Avenue J with his druggie friends. Saturday night on Avenue J has become a drug users/dealers convention, with all the drop-outs hanging and doing business there. It's a sad commentary on the yeshiva school system. I think it's silly for schools to ban whole streets on particular nights; nonetheless, as a parent, it's probably prudent to keep one's kids as far away from this hangout as possible.

[five towns runaway]

this is not anything new. TAG and the local five towns yeshivas had this crap for the last decade and a half. also, tag told parents that the girls were 'not allowed to go on vacation with the grandparents because they might have different 'hashkafas' than a tag parent'.
this sickness is malignant and growing. but its not new

[Joe Field]

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | April 23, 2013 at 06:38 AM

I found myself humming to the tone, very rich.

[Joe Field]

Posted by: A Parent | April 23, 2013 at 10:09 AM

Please explain to us what is the “at-risk teenage” you have is he at-risk for at-risk behavior or going OTD. The fact is that they are in proximity to each other but, not the same reasons.

At risk for addiction is not the same as at risk for going OTD. I know must religious Jews would disagree with my view but, addiction could manifest itself in drugs, gambling, eating and even trading stocks, or other similar behaviors it is a high which gives the person a feeling of invincibility, as the high subsides you need a new high and that is the addiction. Going OTD is usually a desire to be free from the yolk of manmade rules to control your life, and when you archive the result you are there and no need to keep on using a stimulus again and again.

[A Parent]

"At-risk teenager" means he's a substance abuser who is at risk for dropping out of school and embarking upon a self-destructive path.

Just two weeks ago, the police got involved in a Saturday night drug fight involving these yeshiva boys on Avenue J.

[Joe Field]

""At-risk teenager" means he's a substance abuser who is at risk for dropping out of school and embarking upon a self-destructive path."
Posted by: A Parent | April 23, 2013 at 10:58 AM

Don’t think for one second that if your child doesn’t hang out anymore in a place where drugs are present his “at-risk behavior” will miraculously vanishes, at risk for addiction is a lifelong battle. Allow me to divulge to you a secret, at risk person has the propensity and personality to sick out unhealthy behavior, regardless, if the school clamps down on the Saturday night outings. You as a father should try to help him navigate life choices. I don’t believe that because there are some kids who are at-risk for substances abuse, that all the kids should be vanquish from having a good time one night a week.

[A Parent]

Joe Field,

I am not saying that all kids should be barred from those places on Saturday night. I do, however, understand why the yeshivas are advising parents to keep their kids away from bad influences. If you have a kid who is mature and trustworthy, you are probably not putting him/her at risk by letting him go get a slice of pizza with his friends. I do think that if you have a kid who might be looking for trouble (and who really knows what goes on in a teenager's mind?), he will find plenty of it on Avenue J or Avenue M on a Motzaei Shabbos. As usual, the yeshivahs are using overkill by banning even more things, but as a parent, understand where they are coming from.

[John Nagle, Silicon Valley, CA]

Are they allowed to have a MetroCard? They might go to (gasp) Manhattan. Or to the more fun parts of Brooklyn.

Guide to the fun parts of Brooklyn: (http://www.thelmagazine.com/)

[ah-pee-chorus]

A Parent -

thanks for sharing your situation. i hope everything turns out ok for your family.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks Joe F.

[A Parent]

Thanks, ah-pee-chorus. We share the same hope. It's hard to stand by and watch your smart but confused kid waste his life and possibly his entire future away. I appreciate your kind comment.

[Joe Field]

Posted by: A Parent | April 23, 2013 at 12:11 PM

Without a doubt I understand your anxiety about your child’s future. Nevertheless, what the school is trying to attain is not helping at risk children, as we defined at risk. It is a back door way to totally separate the genders. If the intent is to help kids with compulsive behavior, than they would seek professional help, for other negative compulsive behavior. Sorry, to me it sounds more of a way to control any interaction between the sexes

If your child has a compulsive behavior problem, I really hope that you get professional help, not excluding him from seeing friend.

[Joe Field]

sorry should say, I really hope that you get "for him" professional help,

[Jeff]

"I do, however, understand why the yeshivas are advising parents to keep their kids away from bad influences."

The thing is, though - they aren't advising parents to keep their kids away. They're *commanding* them to.

How anyone can bear to live in a frum community and subject oneself to that kind of scrutiny and infantilization is beyond me. Look at an example of the kind of personality these communities produce - Moshe Cohen, above, who can't even *conceptualize* what's wrong with allowing a yeshiva to dictate the parameters of one's life. It's completely beyond him.

The kindest thing you could do for your children would be to leave that world, if you're able to.

[sam]

Amazing how Parents Let the School Take over on what their kid can and cannot do.. I guess the Yeshivas Believe parents cant Bring their kids up correctly!!

[ES]

This sort of thing isn't particularly new. When I was at Chofetz Chaim in Brooklyn in the late 90s, we were forbidden from going to the pizzerias on Avenue J on Friday, lest we run into *gasp* girls. (Avenue M was fine back then, apparently.)

[Jewish Mom]

I'm glad I'm a Conservative Jew who isn't targeted by this ridiculous nonsense.

[Bkyln11230]

I never thought kosher pizza places were such dangerous places.

ps. Avenues K &L are not commercial streets.

[Chaim]

This from the same community who are up in arms about their "kids at risk problem." The Yeshiva administrators still haven't figured it out after 25 years- THEY are the one's turning these kids off with their NO NO NO tactics.
You CANT go to Ave J and M
CANT go to the movies
CANT watch TV
CANT go on the internet (though g-d knows what else theyre doing if theyre home alone at night and their parents need it for parnassah)

What are these kids supposed to do on a saturday night? Not every teenager is interested in going to a motzei shabbos learning program no matter how geshmak the ice cream or raffle prizes are (woohoo, you just won a shloime dachs cassette from the late nineties!).

If the Yeshiva's want to keep the kids out of trouble they have to answer with some positive energy instead of negative energy. Instead of just saying no all the time how about offering a motzei shabbos basketball league or maybe a music or crafts program for the kids who are less sports inclined?

All these kids want is an outlet. If the natural ones are contradictory to the standards of the yeshiva, how about offering an alternative?