Video: NYC Mayoral Candidate Appeases Haredim Over Dangerous Circumcision Ritual

NYC mayoral candidate Bill Thompson is told by a haredi leader that a "red line" issue for the "rank-and-file" haredi man on the street is metzitzah b'peh (MBP), the direct mouth-to-bleeding-penis-sucking done primarily by haredi mohels after cutting off a baby's foreskin. MBP transmits diseases, including herpes, and can – and has – killed and maimed babies.

A Chabad mohel performing metzitzah b'peh last fall

The city's Department of Health and Mental Hygiene passed an requirement for all parents and moehls that mandates that parents must sign an informed consent form provided by mohels before the circumcision if MBP is to be performed on their child.

Agudath Israel of America, the Central Rabbinical Congress (based in Williamsburg), a mohel's organization (based in Crown Heights), and several mohels individually are suing the city in federal court to try to have the requirement voided.

So far, the haredim have lost every legal challenge regarding this issue that they have brought.

And while they have been busy suing the city and lying about the "safety" MBP to their haredi "rank-and-file," another baby was hospitalized with herpes transmitted by a mohel during MBP.

Even so, this has not caused haredi leaders to face reality, and his has not caused them to admit the truth to their haredi followers.

Instead, they're busy trying to coerce candidates for mayor to reverse the informed consent requirement.

Here's a video of haredi leaders trying to do that with candidate Bill Thompson.

To his shame, Thompson accuses Mayor Michael Bloomberg of refusing to talk over the informed consent decision with haredi leaders – forgetting or simply not knowing that these very same haredi leaders broke an agreement reached with the city in late 2005 early 2006 after the first New York MBP deaths were made public.

Thompson also disregards the fact that the entire process of requiring the informed consent now was well-publicized and open for public comment before it was adopted.

Health decisions should not be backroom political deals. Instead, health decisions should be made by qualified medical professionals and public health specialists. But haredi leaders leaders want another backroom deal to be made now in this case, just like the backroom deal that was made to great ineffectiveness in early 2006. And Thompson appears to be willing to go along with that demand:

 

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Comments

[Jeff]

The guy who recorded this has a statement on his YouTube channel: "This is the number one channel for breaking news in the NYC & Tri State area." All of his videos are like this one.

They really think they are the center of the (6,000 year-old) universe

[Atheodox Jew]

"His holiness Michael the First decided he knows what's best for our children, better than what we know thousands of years."

It's a veritable "chullent" of arrogance, condescension, total unwillingness to compromise, and delusion of infallibility of anything in the mesorah.

Yes, occasionally other people *do* know better. This isn't a ban on Bris Milah. It's not even a ban on MBP. It's a reasonable response to people refusing to acknowledge their own gross negligence where it comes to putting infant lives unnecessarily in danger. Rather than whine about it, if you think it's an overreach of government, then come up with a better alternative!

Like with abuse, there reaches a point where if a group doesn't clean up its own mess, someone from the outside will. If you don't want outside intervention, the best thing to do is start acting like responsible adults.

[lame]

it must be tough trying to find hateful and undermining things about jews and their traditions on a daily basis... thats why you need to post 4 month old videos such as this, and even older things as you have done last week.

weak.

lame.

[S.]

"His holiness Michael the First decided he knows what's best for our children, better than what we know thousands of years."

The lie is that there is no unanimity on this in Orthodox Judaism. The Chasam Sofer himself said it is a non-issue. At least if they could have the honesty to acknowledge it - but of course they can't, because then there is no rationale for retaining a dangerous practice that is not even required by many of the greatest, if not the majority, of Orthodox posekim.

[WoolSilkCotton]

As if the frumma would ever vote for a black person for mayor.

Thompson is wasting his breath on them.

[Rocky]

So who picks up the bills if the baby gets sick because of MBP? We do, as taxpayers and as buyers of medical insurance.

[rebitzman]

Where does Anthony Weiner stand on this issue?

[Unorthodox Yidden]

I oppose your MPB argument. They are still a bunch of unorthodox Jews for other reasons. The video doesn't work anymore. Did you have a back up copy?

[Just the Facts]

"haredi leaders broke an agreement reached with the city in late 2005 early 2006 after the first New York MBP deaths were made public."

What was the agreement?

[(The other) Eli]

Why didn't Thompson ask "wait, you mean you're fighting for the right to give head to a baby?"

[Barry]

Hareidim like to kid themselves that only one politician, his Holiness Michael the First, find MpB repugnant and dangerous and is aided in that believe by an assortment of antisemites and self hating Jews.

They refuse to acknowledge that nearly every New Yorker bar themselves (including as can be seen by his body language and weasel words, Bill Thompson) whether Jew or gentile, black or white, republican or democrat is against this primitive and filthy practice and rejects the argument that the first amendment allows child sacrifice.

They should seriously consider leaving the USA.

[Deremes]

What kills more guns or MBP?
thousands are killed each year because of illegal guns and the debate never stops.The NRA is probably the strongest lobby.People for it claim it as a second amendment just in case they need to arm themselves against the government.People for it are laughing at that claim

Many politicians say it the reason they are against gun registry and background checks becuase "their constituent are against it.

In the meantime another sandy hook is awaiting all becuase of guns.And we all go gaga that one out of thousands of babies maybe,maybe,perhpas there is a slight chance are getting injured or died from MBP which religious Jews claim its a freedom of religion.

[(The other) Eli]

Deremes, do you live off pickled red herring?

[Shmarya]

>>Posted by: Deremes | March 18, 2013 at 11:46 AM<<

More people die in foreign wars than in domestic gun violence.

Therefore, following your 'logic' we should not work to stop domestic gun violence.

By far, more people die every year from heart disease than from stroke, lung disease, kidney disease, influenza and pneumonia. Again, following your 'logic' we should not fund research to try to cure these less lethal diseases and illnesses.

You are a callous, sick and stupid little man.

[WoolSilkCotton, I am a work of art as well as a sports and rock superstar]

Politicians will say anything to get elected. In NYC, with so many special interest groups, religious fanatics and weirdos, ethnic and racial groups, etc., each looking for a slice of the pie, how much more so will the politicians pander.

And what do the politicians care if the frumma want to suck children's penises? As long as they do it only amongst themselves, the politiicans don't care. Public health hazard? Burden on the taxpayers to treat frumma babies with herpes, all of whom are on Medicaid? So what. All that matters is getting elected and re-elected.

And BTW, it's only a matter of time before the frumma pick up AIDS and start spreading it to one another.

[Edge Man]

Shmarka you have to get over your metzizah obsession. trying to stop an ancient practice hand crafted by the Maker of Heaven and Earth will get you no where. It seems like it triggers other taivas for you. Maybe you should look into that.

[(The other) Eli]

Too bad metzitzah is rabbinic and not biblical or Mosaic. Nor is it a necessary component of a kosher brit. It's not even given the same reverence as Priah, which is also rabbinic.
Stop listening to uneducated idiots at Chabad who claim otherwise

[Deremes]

WoolSilkCotton,
"And what do the politicians care if the frumma want to suck children's penises"

How about people who chose to become Gynecologist are perverts? because if they like being doctors they could of been a Podiatrist,Gastroenterologis, a Heart surgeon

[Jeff]

Shmarka you have to get over your metzizah obsession. trying to stop an ancient practice hand crafted by the Maker of Heaven and Earth will get you no where.
__________________________________________

How do you know he "hand crafted" it? Because your rebbe told you so? Where in the Torah, or even the Talmud, does it say you're obligated to suck on a baby's penis?

[unorthodox yidden]

Shmarya, there seems to be a fundamental difference in opinion between Deremes and you.

Deremes holds that there is no concrete evidence that MBP kills babies. You hold there does exist concrete evidence.

His logic doesn't follow to ignore the war against domestic gun violence since there is concrete evidence that people die from both.

His point is that there comes a time when there needs to be a limit in being overprotective. We cannot keep our kids home all day because maybe a car might hit them, nor can we keep them out all day because maybe a robber might enter the house.

The statistical chance of a child dying from MBP is so minor that the focus needs to be made on the individual who are known to have herpes (and they should be jailed), rather than to persecute Orthodox Jews in the name of paranoia.

Posted by: unorthodox yidden|

[WoolSilkCotton]

Deremes, what are you saying? It doesn't make sense.

[Shmarya Rosenberg]

Unorthodox Yidden –

I dont need remedial help, thank you.

Now you try to process: the fact is that MBP does kill babies. There is a long documented history of this that Ive written about previously. These are facts, whether a Satmar ignoramus wants to acknowledge that or not. Hundreds of the worlds top medical doctors who specialize in pediatric infectious disease agree with me, as do hundreds of the worlds leading public health professionals and historians of medicine.

And Deremes has been given all this information many times over.

So heres what is really happening: Deremes is choosing to live in a fantasy world of make-believe and you are enabling him by equating his insanity with what I wrote and the actual facts.

Can you explain yourself? Or dont you understand basic logic?

[Jane]

Unorthodox yidden,

It is the job of the government to make laws to protect its youngest members (Hassidic babies included). Babies do not have freedom of religion, nor is it paranoid to protect them from unsanitary elective surgery. The problem is they want to collect government services without government involvement.

[jancsibacsi]

Deremes--You kill more people with youre stupidity then guns or mbp are you happy now shoite,even if it kills one person its more then enough you cant seem to get that through youre thik gemura kop,thats what too much learning gemura does to a person youre a complete robot or you just dont have any humanity left in you, you couldnt care less for the helpless child .

[Deremes]

WoolSilkCotton, painting frum people as perverts for what they do as if they enjoy it? then so are gynecologists.

IF MBP kill'S babie'S it would of been outlawed as an illegal thing and people would of been arrested.The city wouldn't of come up with such a minor thing as a consent form when babie'S die.
Who more cares for their children as the parents themselves.The Torah tells us venishmartem meod lenafshoteichem and Vechai bahem' velo shayamus bahem. Its a must for a Jew to be mechlal shabbos when its pikiech nefesh. If babies die from MBP its a pikoech nefesh but fact is babies do not die.There are thousands of brissen each year with MBP and no child died.Its only noisemakers who try to break us down but it wont work.

[Just the Facts]

Shmarya,

You wrote: "haredi leaders broke an agreement reached with the city in late 2005 early 2006 after the first New York MBP deaths were made public."

What was the agreement?

[Shmarya Rosenberg]

Deremes –

Again, you demonstrate that you lack the ability to think rationally.

Ritual circumcision even without MBP sometimes kills babies. Following your logic, ALL ritual circumcisions should be banned, not just the riskier ones done with MBP.

Perhaps the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene will take note of your argument and act. What will say then? Antisemites?

[Shmarya Rosenberg]

Just the Facts –

Google it on my blog. You can also use the circumcision index of posts. If it goes back far enough, the relevant posts will be there.

[jancsibacsi]

Deremes-Are you a moron,how do you know that no child died from mbp,you are acting like you would be god, the know it all shmendrik.

[Barry]

Deremes asks who more cares for their children as the parents themselves?

That question seems to make sense but we know that in many Muslim societies, fathers kill the daughters they truly love for the sake of honor as for them honor is more important than their daughter's lives. Are haredim any better? They would rather their sons die then admit the Maharam Shick was ignorant as to basic hygiene.

[Just the Facts]

Deremes,

I believe I found the information on the broken agreement that Shmarya alluded to above (Thanks Shmarya for directions on how to find it). What I found was that CRC was to rule on the case of a Mohel the NYC Department of Health judged to have passed Herpes to at least three infants via Metzitzah B’Peh. The Health Department had agreed to let the CRC handle the problem by a mutually agreed upon deadline of Dec 1, 2005 but the rabbinic court missed the deadline. In the meantime, the city discovered two more additional cases and by Jan 2006 they decided they needed to take control and to issue their own regulations.

Is this true and if yes, why didn't the CRC rule by Dec 1, 2005?

[Unorthodox Yidden]

Shmarya,

MBP killed babies, but it doesn't change the fact that the Torah does not hold it to be life threatening. Circumcision without MBP also killed babies, would you support an argument to end all circumcisions?

[Michael from Lakewood]

Shmarya,

.....

Circumcision without MBP also killed babies, would you support an argument to end all circumcisions?

Posted by: Unorthodox Yidden | March 18, 2013 at 11:07 PM

Once a couple you are close to almost has a baby bleed to death due to a botched bris, your thinking can come around. It is done to assert sexual control over the new son by the father, and by extension, the community's leader(s); it is not worth a single life. Not one.

Something is supressing the basic instinct to protect one's own infants.

[Shmarya Rosenberg]

Unorthodox Yidden –

Far more babies die from MBP circumcisions than from non-MBP circumcisions. By that I mean that any given baby has a 340% (or even more) greater likelihood of becoming very ill or dying from MBP circumcision than from bris milah done without MBP.

The Torah, genius, does not mention MBP or require it and halakha does not consider it to be a integral part of the bris milah ceremony. The Hatam Sofer makes this point clearly as do dozens of other poskim.

[Taylor Kitsch]

Once a couple you are close to almost has a baby bleed to death due to a botched bris, your thinking can come around. It is done to assert sexual control over the new son by the father, and by extension, the community's leader(s); it is not worth a single life. Not one.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Deremes, whether frumma rabbis suck children's penises for fun or for profit, it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day the result is the same.

[Unorthodox Yidden]

Shmarya,

When using statistics you have to know the original number. If .00000000005 babies die from bris without MBP and you multiply that, you still have an insignificant number that according to Torah it would not be life threatening.

Exceptions would be if the mohel knows he has herpes. Then the Torah would forbid the mohel from MBP.

There are poskim who hold MBP to be mandatory. This opinion is not exclusive to chassidim. I spoke to a mohel last night and I was surprised to hear that all the Sefardic Jews practice MBP as well. There are also poskim who hold MBP to be completely forbidden.

The concept of eilu ve'eilu would apply.

Your general position against MBP is Torah based, but there is an entire anti-circumcision community started by two gays (one in MA and one in CA) whose sole purpose is to criminalize circumcisions.

It is important the government not start more regulations on bris than absolutely needed.

The notification could be handed out at the hospitals with all the other papers mothers get when they are released from the hospital.

[Shmarya Rosenberg]

Unorthodox Yidden –

Process: MBP is NOT part of the mitzvah of brish milah itself. If a mohel forgets to do MBP, the bris is valid. If he forgets Periah – which is a rabbinic requirement not a Torah-based requirement, the bris must be redone.

The sole purpose of MBP is to protect the health of the child. But since about 1800, we have known with certainty that MBP not only does not protect children, it KILLS children.

Like most hasidim, you are woefully ignorant and you lack even the basic ability to argue logically. But Ill try agin, just in case the open space between your ears suddenly coalesces into a working brain.

Take 1000 8-day-old infants and do bris milah on all of them. But only do MBP on 500. Those 500 will have 340% GREATER chance of getting herpes than the 500 who do not have MBP. Herpes, even when it doesnt kill, is a life-long disease that can be communicated to others. A baby from the 500 who had a bris with MBP included can grow up to infect others. He can even kill others – if he becomes a mohel and does MBP, or if he sexually abuses an infant. And even without either of those, he will certainly transmit the disease to others. To say that halakha permits this is to pervert halakha.

[dapper danny]

Unorthodox Yidden... If MBP is so damn mandatory, why isn't it performed on adult converts or adopted children who get a bris at an older age?

[unorthodox Yidden]

Dapper --- thats disgusting.

Shmarya, MBP is derabonon and minhog shel yisroel Torah hu.

You know Torah logic. You may not consider it logic.

The sole purpose according to Rashi is for health. Rabbi Soloveichik uses your argument to forbid MBP.

Not all rabbis agree with him.

Your statistics don't show anything. out of 500 babies having a bris without MBP none would get herpes or die, and 340% times that is zero.

Halocha prohibits a mohel with herpes from doing MBP according to everyone. Absent that there is no prohibition according to many rabbis.

Bloomberg's Department of Mental Health which is very bias to do Bloomberg's will, which includes twisting data, found 12 cases in 12 years in NYC. Divided that by the total number of babies born in Boro Park, Williamsburg, and parts of Flatbush. You will get a number so insignificant that according to the klals of Torah, botel berov and chazoka, it would not be halochikly life threatening.

I understand your argument very well. You hold MBP is life threatening according to the Torah. I hold it is not according to the Torah.

I am open to seeing evidence, but the cases I have seen so far were allegations proved to be false with the exception of one mohel that should be in jail.

[Jeff]

Dapper --- thats disgusting.
______________________________

Yeah? Why isn't it disgusting when it's performed on an infant?

But then, I am an am ha'aretz operating at an extremely low madrega. I guess I just don't get these things.

[David K.]

The basis of MBP is the medieval belief that illness resulted from the invasion of the body by some sort of evil, so (much like "bleeding" was encouraged as a health care technique) MBP was developed, as someone noted above, to protect the health of the child.

Now, thanks to a brilliant gentile named Louis Pasteur, we have germ theory, and we know that instead of helping, MBP is at best unnecessary, and is indeed dangerous and contrary to the health of the baby. That this is an objection even to an informed consent (and not even a ban) is absurd.

[Unorthodox Yidden]

Jeff -- because there is nothing sexual from an infant's penis.

[Jeff]

[Face palm.]

[FF]

Am I the only one that see a connection between MBP and pedophile? I can't be sure, but would like someone to go deeper into this matter.Not deeper into the child, please. Jeff I agree that there's nothing sexual from (or Frum ) a baby penis as there's nothing sexual from a little boy or little girl but they can get arouse even with girls plastic dolls or women shoes.

[WoolSilkCotton, I am a work of art as well as a sports and rock superstar]

There have been cases of child molesters who sodomized infants, performed oral sex on infants, etc.

It is well known that the clergy is a job that gives people access to vulnerable children, and so predators and creeps are drawn to becoming clergymen, and so why not mohels.

And as mentioned by FF, we know the frumma can get aroused even from seeing a female plastic doll or a picture of a little girl. So why is it so hard to imagine a frum mohel becoming sexually aroused by an infant's penis?

And I would still like an explanation as to why MbP on an older child having a bris is considered "disgusting" by one of the above commentators, but it's ok if it's an infant? I guess you just can't beat frumma logic.