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March 14, 2013

15 Babies Die Every Year In NYC From Metzitzah B'Peh Herpes, Hospitals Cover Up Deaths Leading YU Rabbi Claims

Rabbi Hershal SchachterSpeaking at a rabbinical conference in London, England, Rabbi Hershel Schachter, the rosh yeshiva of Yeshiva University's rabbinical school, claims 15 Jewish babies die every year in the New York City area from herpes transmitted by the haredi circumcision direct mouth-to-bloody-penis-suction known as metzitzah b'peh. Schachter says that hospitals and doctors cover up these cases because otherwise the hasidim will stop coming to them.

 

The audio runs 3 minutes and 45 seconds. Please click the gray bar to listen:

 

Rabbi Hershel Schachter metzitzah b'peh London rabbis' conference 2-20-2013



 

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So what do the doctors (illegally) put down instead as cause of death?

Of course, his statistics are (1) anecdotal, and (2) unscientifically extrapolated, so they really cannot be relied on.

Commendable to be sure, but Schachter is just like the rest of the Orthodox leaders in many ways.

He will engage in Halachic sparing with other Talmudic Scholars, but fails to summon the courage to put his convictions to the test.

If the Chasidim and others are really doing Evil and risking the lives of Jewish Children, would not the issue be more than an Academic or Halachic source of dispute?

Why does not Schachter leave the "Frum" world and start a new society that rejects the evil doers?

The answer, I speculate, is due to the same cowardice that was displayed when he did not leave YU when the Gay and Lesbian club issue in YU was a hot topic.
(FWIW: I am not condemning People who are Gay or Lesbian here, but it is a clear problem for a Rosh Yeshiva to have such clubs on their campus' and his remaining there showed a need for a paycheck before courage of conviction IMHO.)

These Rabbinic leaders, simply, are not.

he is such a foolish figure,

the last 3 years the tracked MAYBE 3 deaths in all USA caused by metzitzah b'pah MAYBE,,
so where have you find 15 babies????

stop making false claims when you cannot prove it


SHAME ON YOU

Hey Avi, how many deaths are too many?
Why not self police, and test all Mohels for herpes?
Why not show some humility as a community?

Pard, you miss the point.

Avi is correctly taking Rabbi Shachter to task for throwing out figures that are wildly incorrect.

Perhaps MosheCohen.

Perhaps the statistics are off. The statistics are not the point.

Perhaps even one death linked to an un-hygienic procedure is too many.

I do agree that Schachter is rather silly.
The bearded ones who refuse to demonstrate any concept diplomacy, self regulation on matters of health, or humility are also rather silly.

avi--Did you listen to the tape? he explains how he got the figure of 15 babies,he says 15 babies clearly die at the end of tape and that his daughter is a nurse and she has inside information about the figures.

Al Ziemer-Yes it means that youre missing part of youre brain.

jancsibacs

its not the truth.
and by saying it in a recorder or writing it in a hard cover book will not change the truth,,
if you see the reports of the health commissioner and the doctors who believed that it MAYBE the cause of mtzitzeh bpeh, you will only find 3 cases, and when i say only, i dont mean that got forbit its to little, no absoloutly no,,
but MAYBE is MAYBE,
and why not ban driving??? which causes deaths every 32 seconds??? why not ban a million other things??

this is just a stupid war against religious with NO proof of any kind what so ever,

so STOP bashing people just because they
are religious....

Can you tell me again what Metzitzah B'Peh is? I forgot.

Posted by: Al Ziemer | March 14, 2013 at 12:56 PM

Yes, it means that after a circumcision the mohel would directly use mouth-to-brain-suction, this is done when the mohel noticed that the brain is too big for the size of the cranium. The problem is that sometimes the Mohel is into sucking big-time and overreact and sucks out most of the brain, like what happened to you, that you cannot remember how good if felt when, the mohel sucked you dry.

avi-- The bottom line is that in this age in time the 21st century mbp is absolutly unnecessary,especially when we are so far advanced in virology and medicine,besides it is very repugnant as a child in europe in the 50 s when i saw it the first time i was shaken up i could no beleive what i am seeing
i cant beleive that you cannot bring youreself to see this even after the helpless childs dying from it, please look in the mirror and ask youreself is this the way we should behave,my grandfather was a satmerer chussid pre ww2

Listen to the tape again. The rabbi bases his estimate on conversations with his daughter who is a nurse at one of the major hospitals in New York that cater to the Hasidic community. She says that each year about 3 Hasidic babies in her hospital die of conditions related to herpes. MBP is the likely culprit. 3x5=15. That is where is estimate comes from. She also claims that doctors and hospitals misreport such deaths and attribute most of them to other causes for fear of losing Hasidic business.

If Christian doctors killed 15 Hasidic babies in New York every year in honor of Easter, there would be a major uproar. But somehow it is OK in the Hasidic community if Hasidic mohels cause the death of about 15 Jewish babies annually because of an unsanitary ritual.

if true the hospitals should be investigated

I wish there were peer reviewed statistics to show how many really do die from this procedure. Not just including herpes.
I'd wager it's much higher than 15. While even one is far too many, when you consider how often this is performed and the inherent risks, 15 just sounds too low.

Posted by: avi | March 14, 2013 at 11:22 AM

Why don't you tell the parents of the dead babies that three deaths is acceptable to you.

Child sacrifice is alive and well in Judiasm.

Rocky --The chassidim are immature childish grownups,they were so repressed of every normal natural feeling that they are unable or unwilling to understand normal rational behaviour which the rest of the world follows,we as jews are supposed to be the smartest but theese chassidim show the world how ignorant and unlearned they are in the ways of the world i am ashamed as a jew truly ashamed of them of course i am not saying that all of them are but a vast majority are that way.

If Christian doctors killed 15 Hasidic babies in New York every year in honor of Easter, there would be a major uproar. But somehow it is OK in the Hasidic community if Hasidic mohels cause the death of about 15 Jewish babies annually because of an unsanitary ritual.

Posted by: Rocky | March 14, 2013 at 02:26

Good job, your description is simple and effective.

I would love to speak to that so called nurse,
how she claims 15 babies die from mtzitzah bpah,,

check this out

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=133057

and also read the article in the New York times which clearly says that between 2000-2011 2 babies died from metzitzeh bpeh, so that's approximate 1 baby each 5 years, so how is this nurses calculation 15 babies over 3 years true???

just explain that to me fellow???

here is the article

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/13/nyregion/regulation-of-circumcision-method-divides-some-jews-in-new-york.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

and BTW, this is part of the article what the judge wrote, NOT A FELLOW JEW LIKE YOU

"“There is nothing to worry from metzitzah b’peh,” the judges wrote, according to a translation by the Chabad Lubavitch movement. “To the contrary, it is very beneficial, even according to the doctors.”

you should be ashamed of yourself, there are so many non religus doctors who don't believe in that shit, and our fellow brothers are looking to ban stuff that's been around forever

shame on you all

Avi, you do not cast the faithful in a particularly good light.

There is no proposed Ban on the practice, just a request from parents to sign that they are aware of potential dangers. Same as if you were to have your knee surgery performed.

Those who desire the practice to continue, should cooperate and embrace the measure as an act of good will towards the authorities who really could ban it if they wanted.

Those who wish the practice to continue should also make sure the Mohels who perform the act are disease free.

For G-D's chosen people, they really act rather stupidly at times.

avi --You are mentally unbalanced go get help
if you insist on mbp after it kills innocent helpless babies then in my view you are evil.

Avi - are you really that stupid or are you just playing with us? His daughter is a nurse. It is not a secret who she is. If you feel compelled why not speak to any nurse in a major hospital in NYC who works in the infant ICU? Are you claiming he is lying? Are you kidding? If it was a major Rebbe you would believe what he said even if he didnt tell you who the source of the information was. And by the way - the NYT articles was talking about PROVEN cases. His daughter is talking about covered up cases. Are you proficient enough in English understand the difference?

smile,
did you saw the article??

jancsibacsi

and no offence, but if i am mentally unbalanced, go say it to the doctors and judges who said the same thing,

don't act like google when you don't know a thing about health,,,

avi --DI BIST GANTZ MESHIGE NISHT HALB,TRANSLATION YOU A TOTTAL NUT CASE , NOT HALF.

AVI -Youre spelling and grammer are of an uneducated chussid, just one example you write,did you saw the article, wrong english it should be,did you see the article,di bist a groisen shoite.

Avi, would you allow a rabbi that you knew had herpes to perform this on your son? If you say yes, you are clearly not fit to be a parent. If you say no, you are a hypocrite, b/c you are advocating that others let these rabbis infect children. So which is it?

jancsibacsi

di bist krank ofen kup big time,,,

people like you belong in a disabled institution, because all the beleive in is what thay are being told by some reform guys like bloomberg, you are not interested in facts, but in the stupid lies thats semms to be good for you, so go on and live in your shaddow, and dont read newspapers or legid media

happy living

and BTY,

this is the same man who claims that he didn't stop child abuse for whatever reason it is, him a child abuse protector you believe, but legit lawyers or doctors who are saving our children they don't know what they are talking about,,,

go on with your denial life

Posted by: avi | March 14, 2013 at 03:03 PM

Idiot, the CDC says its unsafe and you cite Chabad dayanim as a more legitimate source? You don't know a thing about health or science. No rational person would accept a Chabad Dayan as an expert on infectious disease.

avi-I wrote to you before if you can accept one childs death from mbp then i have nothing to tell you more other then you are evil,to you killing of a helpless innocent baby means nothing,this shows youre true character evil is the the word.

Posted by: avi | March 14, 2013 at 03:03 PM

Reading comprehension is such a bi$@h. The article said:
"And a Jewish religious court in Crown Heights, Brooklyn, went further, stating that oral suction was a mandatory part of the procedure that should be promoted.

“There is nothing to worry from metzitzah b’peh,” the judges wrote, according to a translation by the Chabad Lubavitch movement. “To the contrary, it is very beneficial, even according to the doctors.”

In other words, the Judges were members of the Lubavitch beit din. As far as your claim that there are ton of non-religious doctors who don't believe it's dangerous, please substantiate it. Also, your claim that they're trying to ban mbp is false.

"you should be ashamed of yourself, there are so many non religus doctors who don't believe in that shit, and our fellow brothers are looking to ban stuff that's been around forever"

If Moses were to return with Elijah to watch a bris, I guarantee they would be horrified and would start screaming at the mohel to get his dirty mouth off that baby's penis.

Forever?

Not by a long shot.

Why don't you tell the parents of the dead babies that three deaths is acceptable to you.

Child sacrifice is alive and well in Judiasm.

Posted by: nachos | March 14, 2013 at 02:49 PM

no problem they accept it and it is gods will

I just need and had an operation on my heart there where two option I discussed it with doctors.

stupid me I should have gone to the the chabad dyin and asked them for their medical advice

In addition when I woke up I asked if they cleaned the wound with their mouths since chabad said is was ok.

Ok the last part was a joke

No matter which way one looks at this, the very idea of an adult male sucking away on a neonate's cocking is immoral, illegal and disgusting.


jancsibacsi

di bist krank ofen kup big time,,,

people like you belong in a disabled institution,
Posted by: avi | March 14, 2013 at 04:37 PM
jancsibacsi

If you chose to follow avi's advice and live in a "disabled institution" , please make sure the institution is not managed by haredim.

Isn't the term "disabled institution" another term for yeshiva?

nachos--Isn't the term "disabled institution" another term for yeshiva?
Hahahaha i cant stop laughing,youre the best.

When a famous, well known individual says something that others don't agree with, he gets blasted all over the world. I have spoken at length with my father, Rabbi Mordechai Willig, Dr. Daniel Berman, and Dr. Phillip Graham on this issue.
Rabbi Schachter has not stated the facts and data clearly in his lecture in London.
In defense of Rabbi Schachter, I am his daughter, "the nurse". The facts are that we see between 0 and 5 infant boys a year coming in with Herpes post-milah. We have not had a death in the hospital due to this, as incorrectly reported. However, I have taken care of two of these infant boys (one was a twin of the baby who died from Herpes post-milah) so the data is real. Dr. Phillip Graham, head of pediatric infectious disease at Columbia Presbyterian says that if the ban on meziza p'beh goes through and the Chassidim still continue to do it, then if the baby gets Herpes, the parents will be reluctant to bring the infant in for treatment, which ultimately can cause blindness, death, etc. Please be respectful when bashing Rabbonim.

"Please be respectful when bashing Rabbonim"

You give us the choice of blindness or death. No respect deserved. Sorry

Why is it wrong for the parents to have informed consent before Metzitzah B'Peh? Informed consent does not restrict the ability of the herpes infected mohel to perform the mitzvah. Why is knowing the dangers of something considered a major threat.

"Please be respectful when bashing Rabbonim." Er, how exactly is that done?

Shmarya: Do you think this is a case of the rabbi's daughter backpedaling because of the furor her father's speech created? Is "Shevi" actually his daughter?

If a baby is brought into the hospital with herpes, how long does it typically stay there for treatment and at what cost to the health care system? Is there any long term damage to the baby's health? Is there a doctor on this blog that could enlighten the rest of us?

Why is it wrong for the parents to have informed consent before Metzitzah B'Peh? Informed consent does not restrict the ability of the herpes infected mohel to perform the mitzvah. Why is knowing the dangers of something considered a major threat.

Posted by: nachos | March 14, 2013 at 09:15 PM

As a Charedi, I too am mystified by the Charedi press' furor about this.

I can't really see the inherent problem in signing a consent form (other than the implication that Gentiles are trying to meddle in Jewish religious practices, and who knows where that will lead, etc.). I really don't get all the fuss/.

An infectious disease specialist at the children's hospital where I am a pediatrician has pointed out that the timing of these HSV infections (less than 28days) is also consistent with vertical transmission from the mother (i.e., from the birth canal). We see 3-4 cases of neonatal herpes per year at our large referral center (as I work in a city with a tiny Jewish population, almost none of the babies are Jewish). Perhaps this is not brought up because people are afraid to suggest that a frum
woman could have contracted herpes before delivery? No doubt the practice and mohel should be investigated, and all measures to protect the baby should be taken, but mothers should be tested as well.

Anonymous –

No. It isnt brought up because the Department of Health ruled out the mothers as the source of the infection. Perhaps you should read up on the issue a bit. Start with the CDCs warning.

I am familiar with the CDC report which says that transmission from the mother was "largely excluded" though in some of the cases this was done by history (mother has no history of oral or genital lesions). In one case both the mother and the mohel had HSV-1 antibodies. I am disagreeing with you that direct oral suction is unnecessarily dangerous and should not happen. According to new AAP guidelines/report about neonatal HSV, the most dangerous time for transmission is during a primary infection, before lesions appear (most babies with vertically acquired HSV are born to mothers without a history of lesions). Ergo, history alone isn't enough to exclude maternal infection, especially in a group that was so painfully uncooperative with the CDC investigation in the first place (allegedly couldn't remember the name of the mohel, etc). Also, not all frum men are faithful to their pregnant wives making babies vulnerable to STDs (herpes included).

Aaah! Oops! That should read not disagreeing! Sorry, we are on the same side of the argument, Shmarya and I appreciate your blog very much.

If the herpes was sometimes of maternal origin, it's yet another reason for the mohel not to go sucking every baby's penis. An otherwise healthy mohel will pick up herpes from that baby and pass it along to others.

No doubt, some of the herpes cases stem from the prostitutes that frumma men visit.

It continues to amaze me that in the year 2013, in the USA, a group of people are still arguing in favor of letting a man suck babies' penises.

>It continues to amaze me that in the year 2013,
>in the USA, a group of people are still arguing
>in favor of letting a man suck babies' penises.

Hey, they're still swinging chickens over their heads.

Look, nobody should do mbp anymore in this day and age. The evidence is overwhelmingly against it, no matter how many or how few babies have died.
But I do believe this statistic is very wrong. He says the babies get herpes, but it is not necessarily fatal if it's caught in time. Perhaps he should stick to being a rabbi, not a statistician.

Thank you Shmarya Rosenberg for airing this sorry state of affairs on your blog!!

The truth?? There is nothing more revolutionary. And silence is indeed a tacit Yes.

All people convicted of the sexual abuse of minors are vulnerable to assault and murder while doing hard time. That is not a reason for hiding abuse from the authorities. Rather, it is a good reason why those so convicted should exercise the option of serving their terms in solitary confinement.

BTW, there is nothing peculiarly Jewish going on here. I suspect that doctors, hospitals, medical examiners and parents are quite capable of conspiring to cover up the truth about the occasional gentile circumcision gone tragic. There was a recent case in Sacramento CA, where a boy died 2 days after being circumcised, because he was a hemophiliac. His death was blamed on "uncontrollable" bleeding. That the bleeding was triggered by routine circumcision was passed over in silence.

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