Yerushalmi Haredi Man Screams, Attacks IDF: Worse Than Nazis

A Yerushalmi haredi man protested outside the Mir Yeshiva in Jerusalem yesterday during the visit of the head of the right wing Zionist Orthodox HaBayit HaYehudi political party, Naftali Bennett. The man shouted, screamed and protested the looming military draft of haredim, at one point claiming that it would be better to serve in the Nazi army than to serve in the Zionist army, because in the Nazi army it was just a path to death, but the Zionist army is worse, it is a…path out of this world.

 

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Comments

[seymour]

shouldn't they be learning Torah

[netflix]

throw im in the loony bin, Briarcliff Manor preferably.

[James]

Actually that fellow makes a lot of sernse (until he loses his temper)

[Jeff]

better to die than to serve in Israel's military

Okay.

[Ephraim]

תלמיד חכמים--לא יהא צועק וצווח בשעת דיבורו, כבהמות וכחיות; ולא יגביה קולו ביותר, אלא דיבורו בנחת עם כל הברייות.

משנה תורה, הלכות דעות ה:יא

"Talmudic scholars shouldn't scream and shout when speaking like wild beasts; they shouldn't raise their voice excessively, rather they should speak gently with everyone."
Maimonidies, Deyot 5:11.

[david]

Ephraim:
What makes you think this guy is a talmid chacham?

[maven]

You mistranslated him, what he says is more fun, he says better to serve in the nazi army than to serve in the zionist army, because in the nazi army it was just a path to death, but the zionist army is worse, it is a (he has to think for a second) a path out of this world

[Big Bill]

"throw im in the loony bin, Briarcliff Manor preferably"

Please. We have too many loony Jews on the dole in this country already. Israel is the place for him.

[jancsibacsi]

As the saying goes, the one who shouts the loudest has the least to say, same here this guy is tottaly bereft of any knowledge of the outside world so he screams to compensate for it he cant have a sane dialougue since he is insane with hate.

[Curious]

Anyone know who he is? Family history? What school he attended and where he ravens?

[Alter Kocker]

Since it is better to die than serve in the army, I suggest that we arrange to airdrop this troglodite over any one of Israel's neighbours (sans parachute)

[Darth Zeidah]

"Anyone know who he is? Family history? What school he attended and where he ravens?"

I see: playing Jewish Geography is more important than intelligent discussion of the actual story.

On another note, Curious, personally I can say with my hand firmly on my heart that I have never, ever, "ravened" in my life. But then things might be different in your neck of the woods.

Best wishes, Curious, and thanks for making me laugh out loud when I read your comment. You have no idea what a mitzvah you did there.

[S M L]

One screaming Haredi does not a story make- at least not one of any consequence. Haredi shrieks & spews anti-Israeli vitriol. Dog bites man. About equally surprising.

[Garnel Ironheart]

The headline's a little misleading. When you said "attacks IDF" I was expecting soldiers to be there and get jumped.
Look, this guy is a little nuts and a lot lazy and the looming draft threatens his "sit around all day, don't do anything and get paid by the evil Zionist government" ethic. Is it any wonder he's protesting?

[Atheodox Jew]

Look, this guy is a little nuts and a lot lazy

Garnel, I think it's worse than that. This particular guy doesn't strike me as protesting out of laziness and self-interest. He's doing it out of ideological fervor, because he's been indoctrinated with the "Tziyoini is worse than Nazi" mentality. To him, the State of Israel is Amalek, the anti-christ, whatever phrase you want to use to connote THE worst possible thing there could be, literally evil incarnate. That's why he's screaming his head off in protest.

There's a whole world of haredi folks out there who'd be able to function just fine in the army, but someone with this level of hatred for the State and the IDF cannot/will not be integrated in the army. The only thing to do with them is work to uproot this maniacal, psychotic philosophy - or at least keep it from spreading.

[Tuchas Lekker]

Could someone do a Mitzveh and help this guy!! He's in desperate need of a blowjob!!

[Barry]

The behavior of Neturei Karta is a good example of the coping mechanisms adopted to account for the psychological consequences of disconfirmed expectations as predicted by Leon Festinger in his theory of cognitive dissonance.

Festinger studied a cult led by Marian Keech, a Chicago housewife who received messages revealing that the world would end in a great flood before dawn on December 21, 1954. The cult members had taken strong behavioral steps to indicate their degree of commitment to the belief. They had left jobs, college, and spouses, and had given away money and possessions to prepare for their departure on a flying saucer which was to rescue the group of true believers. When doomsday came and went, Keech explained the failure of her predictions of Apocalypse by claiming that she had received a message that the world had been spared because of the "force of Good and light" that the cult members, had spread throughout the world.

The behavior of the cult members following what could only be seen by others as a humiliation was not one that you might expect. Rather than abandoning their discredited beliefs, Keech and the majority of her followers adhered to them even more strongly. Whilst before they kept to themselves and did not actively seek adherents, they now began proselytizing with fervor.

Festinger concluded that in certain conditions, being proved to be wrong, increases your convictions rather than decreases it as might be expected.

1. The belief must be held with deep conviction.
2. The belief must have produced actions that are difficult to undo.
3. The belief must be sufficiently specific and concerned with the real world such that it can be clearly disconfirmed.
4. The disconfirmatory evidence must be recognized by the believer.
5. The believer must have social support from other believers.

Festinger could have saved his train fare to Chicago by taking the subway to visit Yoelish and his followers. All these conditions apply to Satmar and Neturei Karta and to a far stronger extent than Keech's cult. The disconfirmatory event was, of course, the Holocaust. The Hareidim believed that their way of life with all its difficulties and disadvantages would provide them with divine protection and advantages (especially over non-frum Jews who were destined to be punished by God) when in fact they suffered a fate worse than even the worst sinner. The Zionists in Palestine were protected by the British Army, and the assimilationist Jews in Germany were protected by the Non-Jewish families into which married into and had no great difficulty emigrating when need arose. The Hareidim had God on their side but He proved either wanting or not interested.

Unlike the Keech's cult members, their loss was not limited to just losing jobs and savings, but to having their children murdered. The most painful part of cognitive dissonance is condition 4, that is that the disconfirmative evidence must be recognized by the believer even though he will deny it. Keech's cult members recognized that their financial loss was obviously caused by their adherence to her beliefs but refused to acknowledge that. Likewise Satmar and NK recognize that the derech Yisrel Saba paved by the Chosem Sofer which they put in great effort to stay on, was a path that led them inevitably to Auschwitz and Treblinka. They recognize that fact as much as anyone else, but at the same time are psychologically incapable on acting on it but rejecting their upbringing. This causes great psychological distress in them as can be seen by the behaviour of NK (who would never dream of associating otherwise with non Jews but need to do that as a coping mechanism to obtain support from others) who as a result become even more extreme in their cultish ways (with their ridiculous clothing and haricuts).

When you recognize the deep psychosises that Haredim are afflicted by reason that reality disconfirms (even to them) their theology, you no longer feel outraged by their offensive and sometimes comical behaviour but are just glad you are not like them.

[Should be working]

What is up with the crazy wiring of the building behind him? I thought Israel is the land of great new technology.

[Barry]

As well as exhibiting cognitive dissonance, this man is exhibiting guilt projection.

When a householder leaves a side window open and gets burgled, he will feel guilt especially if he has been warned against that. This is notwithstanding that the primary (and legal) guilt rests with the burglar.

The same applies to the Holocaust. Of course the primary guilt lies with the Nazis, however Jews cannot help but ask themselves if Holocaust is a reaction to something Jews did. The Nazis had a particular hatred for 'the ghetto Jew' as represented by the Hareidim and for the Bolshevik Jew who they saw as a threat and the Holocaust can be seen as a reaction against these types of Jew which inevitably brings feelings of guilt in those Jews. The Nazis of course had a hatred for Jews in general be they in America or Palestine however that hatred (unlike that for hareidi and communist Jews) was not a visceral hatred shared by most Germans as they were not seen as repulsive or much of a threat, so Zionists and secularized non communist Jews do not share feelings of guilt found in Haredim and communists.

The Hareidi Jew is faced with the difficult question of whether Hareidi fanatical medievalism and isolationism was a contributing factor to the Holocaust since this is bound to trigger disgust and feelings of 'racial inferiority'. Communists, especially Jewish communists face the similar disturbing question whether the murderous communist regimes which had a significant Jewish leadership was a contributing factor to Jews being associated with the murderous threat of Bolshevism

The mechanism to cope with these feelings of guilt is to project those feeling of guilt on to others. Haredim, as well as Jewish Communists, project this guilt on to Zionists, the former by attributing Zionism as a cause of the Holocaust, whilst the later by exaggerating and being fixated by the 'sins' of Israel to project their own guilt for their own far greater 'sins' which contributed to the 20th century being such a bloodbath, especially for Europes Jews.

[YTHM]

Your biggest enemy with governmental power visiting your hometown like it's the most normal thing, telling you what you should do like a dictator. It would make anyones blood boil!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiJ-MfeHYlM

[rebeljew]

Actually, the IDF protects your home, your yeshiva, your ability to do as you please, and your right to stand there like a stooge and blather away like some backwoods redneck about how horrible they are.

The Nazis, on the other hand, killed people based on racial profiles or political opposition, even within their own country, ran wildly through Europe setting it ablaze and would have closed down your yeshiva, killed everyone in it, whether or not you supported them, and they would not have given you endless money to sit down and shut up, just to say that you "belong".

So those are a couple of minor differences between the IDF and the Nazis.

[jancsibacsi]

Barry -You are brilliant i mean it,everything that you wrote about them is very very true.

[YTHM]

Barry -

Your pseudo-intellectual ramble is just your imagination. You have no facts, you only have assumptions, you don't know any Charedim, you don't know any holocaust survivors. You only have hate and darkness for the Charedim. You can keep copy and pasting this lie, it doesn't make it become more true.

[Runner1983]

WTHM, With all do respect, many aspects of the haredi culture operate in similar ways to a cult: near blind obedience to the haredi rabbis, strong peer pressure to conform, punishment by the community if a member violate the rules (i. e, reporting child sexual abuse to the police), more concern for the community than in protecting its children from abuse, lack of trust in people outside the community, not educating children in secular subjects so they can easily leave the culture, etc, etc. etc. One wonders that if the haredi culture was so valid as a way of life, why the culture would be so afraid of exposing its members to the outside world.

You may disagree completely, and may disagree completely with what I wrote above, but this is how you are seen by the non-haredi community.

[jancsibacsi]

YTHM-I know hareidim i was raised among them i still live among them and i know more then you will ever know about them,of course there are many good people among them that is undeniable,i dont know if you know me here on fm but if you read what i wrote in the past you will understand who i am, i cannot find the right words to describe many of the hareidim hassidm and alot in here wrote about them but barry and runner1983 is right on describing them
i in my 60s all my life lived among them was even molested as a child ,in a few i will describe the they live like allice in wanderlad out of touch with the real world especially the younger generation,everyday we read about new theft commited by them new molestation cases they are a self destructive cult similar to sadam hussein iraq then was called the republic of fear that is what keeps them going everyone is afraid of everyone else in a nut shell.

[ruthie]

omg

[Runner1983]

Thank you, jancsibacsi for your confirmation, by someone who has lived adjacent to the haredi community. Your comment that "they live like Alice and Wonderland out of touch with the real world especially the young generation..."

I feel very sorry for the young haredi generation, because they are being robbed of the opportunity of learning of all the possibilities of the outside world. They will never have the opportunity to exercise their own critical judgment or G_d given free will. Not one will ever have the opportunity to rise to greatness, and perhaps reach the pinnacle or their profession, in science, engineering, the arts or in the humanities, or win a Nobel Prize, as so many non-haredi jews have done. They will never have the opportunity to make this world a better place.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Festinger concluded that in certain conditions, being proved to be wrong, increases your convictions rather than decreases it as might be expected.

1. The belief must be held with deep conviction.
2. The belief must have produced actions that are difficult to undo.
3. The belief must be sufficiently specific and concerned with the real world such that it can be clearly disconfirmed.
4. The disconfirmatory evidence must be recognized by the believer.
5. The believer must have social support from other believers.

Posted by: Barry

very true. it can also be seen with chabad meshichists. when the rebbe was alive they insisted he wouldnt die and could be turned to to guide and help all his chasidim. upon his death, a new ideology emerged in which not only can moshiach be a dead guy, but the rebbes stature as guide and leader was enhanced by his death in that he is now that much closer to god and is the perfect conduit between the chasidim and god.

[Jeff]

Excellent, Barry.

[Abracadabra]

Barry -

Are there any theories in this study about how one could go about psychologically freeing themselves from cognitive dissonance of this sort?

[A. Nuran]

He'd rather die than serve?
Failing to see a problem here.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Jeff-

i finished hartmans "god who hates lies" and enjoyed his take. he quoted eliezer berkovitz , a favorite of mine.
thanks!

i also just finished "the rebbe" which was very interesting.

[Steve]

Except the nazis would not pay stipends - that is why the Zionists are better.

[Michael]

APC- funnily enough, I also just read the same work by Hartman. Given your hatred of religion, I'm surprised you liked it.

[Robert J. Barron, Attorney at Law]

Barry has made an excellent contribution to our dialogue here. I can only hope, as Jeff has stated previously in another thread, that this lifestyle (especially in the United States) does not last more than 15-20 years.