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February 12, 2013

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mendel

sratch that correction.

mendel

Correction
would only limit him limited.

mendel

dh-
"Good God, that thing was written by a bunch of people and none of them are making sense."
Your problem re how it doesn't make sense stems from your ignorance as to who is who.
Get this straight,and your complaint will be obviated automatically:
You are the creature; He is the Creator. If He doesn't- make sense it is due to your finite "understanding"; His is, unlike yours, infinite.
Your childish demands on Him to make sense would only limit him.
""Homo mensura( "Man is the measurer of all things") is a Greek belief, not a Jewish one-- and thatis the source of your problem--
you need to think Jewish--get it?

dh

Thanks ah-pee. That sounds good. Last year I decided to sit every Shabbat and read the Parsha. I wanted to develop my own opinions. I am no less sagacious than anyone else. Tzadik shmadik.

At first it was thrilling, then moving, then pedantic, ridiculous and around Shavuous I slapped it shut and said out loud, "Good God, that thing was written by a bunch of people and none of them are making sense."

I haven't opened it since. What is most interesting to me is that, given my own reaction to what I perceived as nonsense, I said "Good God" and meant it.

Account Deleted

@ michael...Deism is NOT a religion...it tries to explain that RELIGIONS are man made and undermining the true existence of the Creator. Get informed before commenting.

ah-pee-chorus

dh-

have you read "who wrote the bible" ? thats a great starter book related to the documentary hypothesis.

ah-pee-chorus

Michael-

While Dawkins is no doubt brilliant, he is just so damn angryand agenda driven! He is clearly coming to science with subjective viewpoint which he wants to prove, not the other way around! His non-profit organization is all about secularizing the world. What a waste of life.

you throw around the term 'angry' a lot. i find him quite pleasant in his speeches and debates. hitchens was better described that way but not dawkins. and of course he's agenda driven as is everyone else on earth. he rightly sees suspending reason and logic while glorifying the concept of 'blind faith' which is belief absent evidence, as dangerous to humanity. every kiruv guy is also 'agenda driven' or didnt you realize that?
can you support your claim that dawkins comes to science with a bias such that he rejects empirical data ? how do you know this?

Also, two can play at your game of apologetics. Look up Father George Coyne, a distinguished catholic scientist who headed the vatican observatory (sounds like an oxymoron right?) and is a believer.

what do you mean regarding apologetics?
i'm familiar with coyne. what is your point?

For more info on why science cannot possible "prove" God, religion, spirituality, or morality, read up on Stephen Jay Gould and his theory of Non-Overlapping Magisteria (NOMA).

utter rubbish, at least when applied to bible god. the NOMA concept is :

"the magisterium of science covers the empirical realm: what the Universe is made of (fact) and why does it work in this way (theory). The magisterium of religion extends over questions of ultimate meaning and moral value. These two magisteria do not overlap,"

thats true, IF one is restricting the definition of religion to questions of meaning and moral value. however, the torah doesnt refer to a god who exists in another realm with no contact with earth or man. THAT god would be beyond sciences ability to analyze since no claims are made regarding its activities on earth. but bible god is quite different. god created the entire universe, and describes when and how it took place. the torah also describes many historical events. science CAN and does have what to say regarding those claims and they have been shown to be false. so NOMA is inapplicable to bible god . i do see why so many people i debate with end up referring to it . when you have no defense left to factual disproofs, why not try to claim its because we're operating on different wavelengths. its too bad the NOMA defense is so transparently flawed.

Please never quote Dawkins again. He is a militant atheist, as fundamentalist and narrow minded as many religious people

he's quite worthy of being quoted. and if you understood what fundamentalism and narrow-mindedness are, you'd stop regurgitating this nonsensical charge from creationists whose only defense is to accuse everyone else of being just like them.
but again, if you'd like to support these claims, please provide examples of his fundamentalism with links.


Mike

@ Michael:

I've looked over the conversation between Jeff, APC, and yourself and you seem reasonable enough. I was in a very similar position to your own several months ago, a more left wing MO type who did realize the insanity of religious fundamentalism of any form. However in the last year and a half or so I have found my own personal inconsistencies within what the Torah states and my own personal beliefs. I don't have any problem with belief in god and I don't really believe that religion is necessarily a bad thing, but I do believe that it closes ones mind to some basic truths of the world, the biggest example of which is evolution. Thousands upon thousands of Americans reject it and proclaim the scientists who proposed the idea as demon scum, but the truth is no scientist worth their salt even debates whether evolution is happening or not, rather they debate the methodology within which it takes place. For all intents and purposes it is an indisputable fact. The Cell Theory is also "just a theory" but no one in their right mind debates the validity of that. That isn't the point of my response to you though. My main idea is that you are entitled to your beliefs and if it makes you feel any better and makes you feel like a better human being than by all means, keep believing. The major thing to realize is that open-mindedness is the key. The more rabbis and religion dictate your mindset and lifestyle the more close-minded one can become, as evidenced by these meshichist lunatics. What the rabbis say is what all these people really know. They and their children don't have the chance that you have. I won't encourage you to move away from your beliefs, but I strongly encourage you to keep an open mind.

dh

OK, ah-pee, I am going to try reading Kugel, even though many is the time I said to my child "I am your mother" and I know for certain that he has no other.

Michael

Please. Quoting Richard Dawkins as an objective, agenda-free scientist is like me quoting King David or Jesus to prove that God exists.

While Dawkins is no doubt brilliant, he is just so damn angryand agenda driven! He is clearly coming to science with subjective viewpoint which he wants to prove, not the other way around! His non-profit organization is all about secularizing the world. What a waste of life.

Also, two can play at your game of apologetics. Look up Father George Coyne, a distinguished catholic scientist who headed the vatican observatory (sounds like an oxymoron right?) and is a believer.

For more info on why science cannot possible "prove" God, religion, spirituality, or morality, read up on Stephen Jay Gould and his theory of Non-Overlapping Magisteria (NOMA).

Please never quote Dawkins again. He is a militant atheist, as fundamentalist and narrow minded as many religious people

ah-pee-chorus


Eli, what me messiah? -

heres a great presentation by daniel dennett at TED on the brain virus concept.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzGjEkp772s

ah-pee-chorus

Eli, what me messiah?-

that would be fun. if you'd like to email me its ahpeechorus@gmail.com
i loved the selfish gene and everything else dawkins has written. and dh is welcome too.

mendel -

*N*aaseh adam be-zalmei*NU* ke-demutei*NU* . all the apologetics in the world wont change the conjugations. the author spoke in plural. the word for god starts out as 'elohim' , another clearly plural word. claiming otherwise is dishonest, though necessary in maintaining the mistaken claim that the torah is monotheistic. i guess you never read the asseret hadibrot either. if the author knew there was only one god, and he was it, the first two make no sense. OTOH they fit perfectly only when one assumes there are many gods, but that the jews should only worship THEIR god. why else "anochi hashem elohecha" (i am YOUR god) as opposed to "I am god" , or "I am the only god " . likewise "dont have any other gods before me" would make no sense if god was the only god. it would instead say something like "dont worship any fake gods, because there are no others". but it doesnt.
you should read "how to read the bible" by kugel. he's a frum jew , though i cant imagine how, and coined the term "monolatrous" to describe what the bible is really saying. it isnt monotheistic, it just paves the way for the worshipping of only one god. YOU, mendel, should learn what the torah really says, and not the lies youve been fed.
and i bet i could layn a blatt gemara just as well as you can, despite not having done so in over 20 years.

Eli, what me messiah?

sorry!

sometimes I think I inherited the gene of "Cliff the Mailman" from Cheers....

dh

oh god. now i'm so depressed.

Eli, what me messiah?

and just since it's vaguely relevant to what Mendel has posted, something that Mendel will never read, from The Selfish Gene (and you can replace "gene" with "meme" and it works too):

"Individuals are not stable things, they are fleeting. Chromosomes too are shuffled into oblivion, like hands of cards soon after they are dealt. But the cards themselves survive the shuffling. The cards are the genes. The genes are not destroyed by crossing-over, they merely change partners and march on. Of course they march on. That is their business. They are the replicators and we are their survival machines. When we have served our purpose we are cast aside. But genes are denizens of geological time: genes are forever."

Eli, what me messiah?

dh, it's evolutionary theory and it sort of gets under your skin, the more you get into it.
Richard Dawkins first achieved fame with his book The Selfish Gene, in which he basically says that we biological organisms (you, me, the cat in the corner, even Mendel) are just meat that our genes use to hop to the next generation. despite how it sounds, he ends it on an optimistic note, that just because our genes are selfish doesn't mean that we have to be: "We, alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators."
in one of the chapters, he argues pretty convincingly that ideas have the same characteristics of genes, that they jump from host to host, replicating like genes, and out survive any one of us. he coined the term "memes", which others have since developed as an idea. Susan Blackmore is one of my favorites as she's just a really interesting character herself.

mendel

The torah is polytheistic , acknowledging the existence of many other gods.
To the contrary,
It acknowledges the existence of many other "false" gods--have you never learned about the generation of Enosh at which time polytheism started?
From the time of Adam until then all humanity worshiped only the Creator.
No wonder you say you are an atheist-- you could not be any more ignorant--of even your own religion--let alone those of others l'havdil.
More to follow later.

dh

Wow, ah-pee and Eli, please include me in the list exchange. But I still don't understand what a straw man is and just had to look up 'meme' so start me off with easy stuff and I could be persuaded to put aside my passion for filth, waste, disease and germs.

Eli, what me messiah?

to answer Shmarya's question, he'd say, "MENDEL! WHAT IN MY NAME ARE YOU DOING COMMENTING ON FAILED MESSIAH, YOU STUPID SCHMUCK!!!"

Eli, what me messiah?

Michael,
with due respect, APC is relying on a substantial body of science and philosophy when he speaks of religion being a meme, with the likes of Richard Dawkins (I think he coined the term) and Susan Blackmore (who eloquently developed it).
And religion is a meme, no question. an idea that self-replicates and outlives the organism that initially hosted it, and which can change over time to adapt to new circumstances. it evolves, just as all religion has evolved new traditions.
APC, we really ought to trade reading lists one day...

Lubavitchers Are Christians


What do you think the Rebbe would think about this article:

http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=24027&alias=nepal-shluchims-adopted-child

Posted by: Simple Jew | February 12, 2013 at 10:34 PM

Wow. That is a beautiful story. Thanks for posting it.

ah-pee-chorus

Do you even understand how revolutionary Judaism was in its vision of monotheism, Posted by: Michael

judaism evolved into monotheism but definitely didnt start out that way. the torah is polytheistic , acknowledging the existence of many other gods. it instructs the jews, however, to serve only the one who supposedly authored the torah. elohim is a plural word no matter how hard apologists deny it.
the ten commandments are evidence of this also. the first 2 only make sense when you accept that there are multiple gods.

as far as being different from other religions, youre looking at it only in todays context. the navi is filled with stories and commandments to do some pretty horrible things to innocent people.
abraham was considered great for being willing to sacrifice his son to allah...i mean jehovah. and if todays charedim were as numerous as are fundie muslims, while also being unconstrained by "normal" society, the bombs would be exploding just as often.

Judaism values life

until you squeeze out dye from a fabric on a certain day called shabbos.or until you are a non-virgin bride, or until you choose to have sex with a person who also has a penis. at that point judaism values death. and of cousre if you dont believe in the torah, death is the recommended treatment. sorry, it all depends on which parts you like to emphasize.

ah-pee-chorus

mendel -

my views towards religion and humanity are so opposite to hitlers that to even continue defending your assertion is pointless. try this one; your belief that jews are inherently different from non-jews (and better) is quite the same as hitlers beliefs except he would disagree on the "better" part. who's a hitler lover now, mendel? and you both wear pants. that settles it.

congratulations; it is quite an accomplishment.
After your exhaustive search of the truth value of the world's religions you still come up empty handed.
Tell us which ones you thoroughly examined analyzed and rejected--beside Judaism that is.

oh, i get it. you havent got a clue what "atheist" means. i'll make it simple. theres no evidence for a god, ergo no reason to assume one exists.

and BTW, have you thoroughly analyzed all of the 100,000 or so gods believed in by men at one time or another? have you exhaustively researched all religions in order to settle on judaism? have you delved into all the mephorshim on the invisible black unicorn and flying spaghetti monster ? of course not. you reject them because theres no reason to believe in them in the first place.

try to come up with something intelligent for once.

Pope the 69th

To all my chasideshe friends

Thank you for this beautiful picture in honor of ASS WEDNESDAY..

Jeff

Do you even understand how revolutionary Judaism was in its vision of monotheism, and of a God that was infinite and timeless, yet still available for a meaningful relationship to all who wish to draw near to him by being ethical and compassionate, as he is?

History is written by the winners, Michael - or sometimes by survivors. I'd recommend God Against the Gods: The History of the War Between Monotheism and Polytheism.

http://www.jonathankirsch.com/godagainstgods.html

Jeff

Oh well, firstly, I'm MUCH angrier than the others you mentioned, except perhaps for korbendallas, and he's angry for different reasons. I'm certainly much angrier than most secular Jews (to whom have you been talking?).

Secondly, the story of my journey is a very sad one without a happy ending. The only edification you'd gain from hearing it is the sort your parents wouldn't want you to have - or you'd simply dismiss what I had to say, in which case it would be a waste of time for both of us.

Thirdly, this blog is dedicated to a specific purpose and isn't meant to be used as a soapbox for my drama. I'd ask Shmarya to give you my email, but it would be inappropriate for me to talk to you about these matters without your parents' permission - and if they knew the sort of things you'd hear from me, they would never allow you to talk to me. In fact, if I'd known earlier that you were a young person, I wouldn't have said as much as I have.

Michael

I was referring specifically to extremist Muslims, to clarify.

Michael

And to WSC,

"Mendel, all the world's religions are pretty much the same. It's just a matter of details, and how much killing each religion thinks it can get away"

- that statement is an over generalization if I ever saw one. Do you even understand how revolutionary Judaism was in its vision of monotheism, and of a God that was infinite and timeless, yet still available for a meaningful relationship to all who wish to draw near to him by being ethical and compassionate, as he is?

Deism, pantheism, monotheism, and other religious philosophies are worlds apart. Just reading hammurabi's code vs. the mosaic one is enough to prove that (big differences were Hammurabi's harsher laws, and money allotted to a victim of theft according to a persons class.)

I can't even begin to explain how different Judaism is from Islam. We have no jihadists. Even the craziest chareidim don't kill themselves to kill civilians. They might spit on little girls, which is revolting and so unjewish, but even they would never teach their children to kill themselves as suicide bombers.

Judaism values life. You can read it in the holiness code. The Torah says, 'choose life!' Wahhabism Muslims disagree. The crusaders disagreed. The Aztecs and Mayans that offered child sacrifices routinely disagreed.

Can't you see how different religion is, according to culture, society, and ability (or lack thereof)to create ethical societies?

Michael

You (Jeff). But if WSC is open to sharing, that'd be cool too.

Jeff

That said, I'd be interested to hear about your journey. You seem a lot more pragmatic and less bitter/angry than most secular, atheist, or agnostic Jews (see APC, jansci, korben Dallas, and occasionally A. Nuran).

Michael, are you talking to Shmarya, WSC or to me?

Michael

There are already way too many OTD blogs out there lol. That said, I'd be interested to hear about your journey. You seem a lot more pragmatic and less bitter/angry than most secular, atheist, or agnostic Jews (see APC, jansci, korben Dallas, and occasionally A. Nuran).

Wool Silk Cotton, sports star and rock superstar

Mendel, all the world's religions are pretty much the same. It's just a matter of details, and how much killing each religion thinks it can get away with.

Mendel, why did you capitalize 'He' in your 9:24 posting?

Jeff

Do I have time to take out the trash?

Posted by: Moshe | February 13, 2013 at 09:20 AM

Just, Moshe. Just.

 Snake

What Would The Rebbe Say?
and, What Would jesus say?

mendel

BTW, Ahpe--
If it is you truly do hold the benighted views of an atheist or self-confess that you are one--
congratulations; it is quite an accomplishment.
After your exhaustive search of the truth value of the world's religions you still come up empty handed.
Tell us which ones you thoroughly examined analyzed and rejected--beside Judaism that is.

Jeff

so if it "walks like a duck"...

If it talks like a psychotic...

mendel

Ahpe--
"if your views oppose mine you are like hitler" trick.
I merely pointed out that He would deem you to be a kindred spirit.
You both use the term "virus" re religion be it the Judaic or, lehavdil, the non-Nordic kind, respectively, so if it "walks like a duck"...

Moshe

I'm sorry you had such a negative experience with chabad. However, judging from many comments I've read by yòu, you seem to harbor negative feelings towards ALL religious Jews. Why?

Long story. Bottom line: I despise fundamentalism. I'm convinced it will be the single most significant causal factor in humanity's demise, which I expect momentarily.

Do I have time to take out the trash?

Jeff

You have so much anger and anomosity toward Lubavitch and the Rebbe that if the truth would hit you in the face or in your tuchas(as pictured) you still would't believe it

And how on earth would you recognize the "truth"? You believe whatever they tell you.

put a square into a hole

Shmarya
You have so much anger and anomosity toward Lubavitch and the Rebbe that if the truth would hit you in the face or in your tuchas(as pictured) you still would't believe it

ruthie

i would hope the rebbe would be smart enough to laugh about this.
he probably is laughing at this from heaven

Account Deleted

@Danny...The leopard print on far right is starting to induce impure thoughts.

Posted by: danny | February 12, 2013 at 10:02 AM

I got impure thoughts out of the black leather one, first from left to right. I better get into a mikveh after flogging myself 30 times!

As to the question, What would the LBR will say, I would think it will depend on the size of the woody he gets.

ah-pee-chorus

Jeff,

It wasn't you who said that, mostly just APC. My bad for lumping you guys together


michael-

you were right the first time. i didnt write my brain virus comment until i read your comment to jeff, in which you were asking him about his "illness" comment. so you couldnt have been referring to me. i do recall jeff writing that he thinks fundamentalism is a disease. i cant say i disagree, just setting the record straight.

ah-pee-chorus

Michael-

APC: Characterizing religious belief is just so blatantly offensive. I don't really need to explain why, do I?

i know it sounds offensive to many believers, but does that mean i shouldnt say it on a blog which at times deals with theology and beliefs? i dont think religion deserves any different treatment than other similar concepts. and when i say a "brain virus" i mean that it acts just like an actual living virus in its means of transmission and infection. it is a classic meme(plex). we see that those who have the virus are convinced that god or their version of the bible is not subject to the same rules of logic as anything else. its as if theres a physical virus acting on a certain part of the brain thus preventing eyesight, for example. only in this case the meme-virus acts on the logic center and convinces the host to ignore all contrary evidence. if its offensive theres nothing i can do about it. religious people have no problem ascribing reasons for atheists lack of belief. satan has a hold of them, theyre evil, theyre lonely, something terrible happened to them etc...yet they are offended when someone tries to explain their reason for believing. the playing field should be flat. theists reasons for believing are just as subject to conjecture by me as are atheists reasons for non-belief subject to all kinds of conjecture from theists.

scientists abound with theories about the place of 'spiritual experiences,' and belief in God, whether its there because of evolution, or some other phenomenon. So for you to say definitively that it's an illness is to make the claim that you know better than neuroscientists. That takes some hubris that even I, a believer, don't have!

i think youre mischaracterizing the science in that field. to my knowledge there is nothing thats been discovered to support some kind of otherworldy spiritual experience. studies are instead locating the specific part of the brain responsible for different thoughts and emotions. and they are finding that injuries to certain areas of the brain preclude certain types of thought and alters emotional responses to diffferent circumstances and stimuli. these changes can be predicted in many cases based purely on physical changes. this points completely against there being anything more to the brain than a series of electronic impulses. if you have any studies which show a special spirit force or anything else metaphysical, please share.

Shmarya

Posted by: Simple Jew | February 12, 2013 at 10:34 PM

The Rebbe was very against confusing non-Jews and making them think in any way that they are or will be Jews (unless they were in an approved conversion program).

Unlike what you, simpleton, seem to think and Apple Juice excretes, what the Rebbe probably would have done is told the shluchim to put him in an orphanage or convert him (if certain benchmarks were met).

Past that, in your infantile way of thinking (if it can even be called thinking) you extrapolate from the tiny minority and try to make it the majority – but it is not.

The Rebbe had the chance to do what these shluchim did with hundreds of Ethiopian Jews.

Butt he Rebbe refused to do it.

That is the Rebbe's actual legacy, little man.

ah-pee-chorus

@Posted by: mendel | February 12, 2013 at 07:01 PM

mendel- you crack me up. fist you take my claim that ALL religions are brain viruses and end up with me being like hitler.
since i beleieve all religion to be man-made, god doesnt exist and didnt create anything. so if all men evolved, we are all the same. same DNA, same pathway to existence. no group is any better or worse than any other man defined group. people who believe as i do would never see any reason to hate another just based on their variation of small amounts of DNA. it is the POLAR OPPOSITE position of a theist like hitler who believed that there is reason to differentiate amongst people, and that he had a providentially divined right to act on his desire to eliminate the "bad ones".
then , after pulling the old "if your views oppose mine you are like hitler" trick, you then pull out the "i'm gonna scare you and threaten you at the hands of god" trick when its uncomfortable to face reality. why do you guys always resort to threats? is the battlefield of reason, logic, and rational thoughts conveyed in words unacceptable to you? are you unable to compete along these lines? it seems you feel better about bypassing that in lieu of actual and implied threats. ho-hum.

Apple Juice

Simple Jew, I Was just Gonna post this, I saw you posted this already and this only just one of many examples of what the Rebbe is about, another one of many examples is friendship circle Provides assistance to ALL Jewish and Gentile families with children with special needs, as well as support to individuals and families in situations of isolation, addiction, and other ...

Simple Jew

B"H

Shamra

What do you think the Rebbe would think about this article:

http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=24027&alias=nepal-shluchims-adopted-child

A. Nuran

Einstein was a superb mathematician and physicist, an adequate amateur violinist and a failure as a husband and father. Not sure which of those makes him a posek on religious matters. Newton was also revolutionized physics and mathematics even more profoundly. He was also obsessed with the Book of Revelation and with alchemy. I'm not going to follow his lead on either of the last two.

Michael

Jeff,

It wasn't you who said that, mostly just APC. My bad for lumping you guys together. And to Jansci, I admire your honesty. My answer to your very true analysis that religious people can be complete a-holes is that they are practicing bad religion. The antidote to bad religion is good religion, not no religion. Similarly, the antidote to bad science or immoral scientists is not no science, but good science!

Yes, there are plenty of Jews who keep shabbos, kashrus, and still abuse children, or cheat the government. How do we stop them? Preach and practice a Judaism that is open, tolerant, and stresses values like justice and chessed over halachic minutiae.

To Mendel: I am frum, and much of what you say is a bizui hatorah and a chillul hashem. please stop debating intelligent people- you just make orthodox Jews look bad.

dh

"Unfortunately, I believe you are crazy AND stupid." WSC @ 9:52

Not that that's a bad thing...

Wool Silk Cotton, sports star and rock superstar

Mendel, copying and pasting a bunch of crazy shit from the Chabad website, taken from some musings from hundreds or a thousand years ago by people at that time, does not make them 'facts'.

Instead of memorizing such nonsense, wake up early tomorrow and go sign up for some courses at the local community college. Maybe basic reading, writing, arithmetic, science, world history.
You are wasting your time memorizing drek from a thousand years ago.
Unfortunately, I believe you are crazy AND stupid.

dh

I beg to differ, mendel. You are stupid.

mendel

jancsibacsi--
That's right,ignore the facts I post and attack me.Is that the best you cn do in refutation. I might be crazy but I am not stupid.

jancsibacsi

mendel-You are mentally very very disturbed,are you on lsd? jeff i forgot who this mendel is now i remember him from last time oy what a broch.

Jeff

Reagan's elimination of most of the funding for state psychiatric hospitals in the eighties was one of the best things that ever happened to Chabad.

mendel

None of your non-sequitirs or straw men will alter the facts. You support a cult of personality that has deified a human being. Your cult does not differ significantly from Christianity, Gnosticism, Sabbateanism or the Roman Caesar cults.

Skep--
You ought to be ashamed of yourself--non sequitors, cults, Christianity etc.?

Historical sources on the Tzadik
After the 16th century Kabbalistic renaissance in Safed, Ethical works and itinerant circles popularised mysticism in Eastern Europe. Jewish folklore and Yiddish literature adopted its motifs, including the lamedvav "concealed righteous".

Based on the teachings of Rabbi Isaac Luria, the Baal Shem Tov and the Ohr ha-Chaim, Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi taught in the name of the Zohar that "He who breathed life into man, breathed from Himself." Therefore one's soul comes from the essence of God.

According to kabbalah, a tzadiki, because they have completely nullified themselves and their desires to what God wants, their Godly soul (which like every Godly soul is part of God) is revealed within them more than other people who have not completely nullified themselves to God. This concept is based upon many Jewish sources. Here are some:

The Zohar: "Et pnei Ha'adon YHWH - do Rashbi" (Lit., "The Countenance of the Lord YHWH - this is [a reference to] Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai.")

The Jerusalem Talmud[8] "All the standing that the prophet Elijah did before his teacher Achiya Hashiloni, were as if standing before the Shekhinah." And this is explained in Yesod HaAvoda in the name of the Radbaz, "This was because Achiya had his mind and thoughts connected and cleaved to the greatness of the holy one, and Elijah when he stood before his teacher connected his thoughts with the thoughts of his teacher with the love from his heart, and therefore it was as if he stood in front of the Shekhinah."

Bahya ben Asher[9] comments on the verse "And Moses took the tent and pitched it for himself outside the camp, distancing [it] from the camp, and he called it the tent of meeting, and it would be that anyone seeking the Lord would go out to the tent of meeting, which was outside the camp." saying that "From here we see that Moses was called with the Tetragrammaton, and we also find that Jacob is called with El...And we also find by the name of a Tzadik that he is called with the Tetragrammaton... And we also find that by King Messiah that he is called with the Tetragrammaton as it is stated.[10] and this is his name that he shall be called, The Lord is our righteousness...And the reason by all of them is because one who cleaves to something, is called by the thing which he is cleaving to."

Adams

I used to like sitting at the Chabad station in the Ben Gurion airport until last Month i saw for the first time, it is showing Meschichist films.

Jeff

SY, don't bother with mendel. He's literally psychotic.

Jeff

He was also the guy that said 'God doesn't play dice with the universe.' That counts for something!

He was speaking figuratively.

What did I say that led you to believe I consider religion to be a form of mental illness?

SkepticalYid

Posted by: mendel | February 12, 2013 at 07:45 PM

None of your non-sequitirs or straw men will alter the facts. You support a cult of personality that has deified a human being. Your cult does not differ significantly from Christianity, Gnosticism, Sabbateanism or the Roman Caesar cults.

mendel

mendel--mendel-You are missing the point,religion is ok fine the problem is the way it is practiced,by that i mean those who are honest should not let the ones who are dishonest pull them down into the abyss
jancsibacs--
If you would only accept the Torah's teachings you would get chizuk from what is going on now right before the completion of the Redemption-- not the opposite.

SANHEDRIN 98

THE YETZER HA'RA'S LAST STAND
QUESTION: The verse says that before Mashi'ach comes, "Those who go out and come in will have no peace from the enemy" (Zecharyah 8:10). Rav explains that this means that even Talmidei Chachamim -- who "have much peace" (Tehilim 119:165) -- will not have peace from the enemy at that time. RASHI, in one explanation, says that the enemy is the Yetzer ha'Ra.

Why does the Gemara teach, according to this explanation of Rashi, that the Yetzer ha'Ra will be less of a threat to a Talmid Chacham than to everyone else? The Gemara in Sukah (55a) states that the greater the person is, the greater is his Yetzer ha'Ra!

ANSWER: The Gemara in Sukah (52b) teaches that although a Talmid Chacham has a greater Yetzer ha'Ra, while he is learning Torah he is free from the influence of the Yetzer ha'Ra. However, during the time before Mashi'ach comes, even his involvement in Torah will not protect the Talmid Chacham from the Yetzer ha'Ra.

The TORAS CHAIM explains the reason for this as follows. When a force is about to be overpowered, it gathers all of its remaining strength in a final attempt to vanquish its opponent. This is why the last moment of the night, immediately before the light of dawn, is the darkest point of the night. Similarly, the day or so before a sick person succumbs to his illness and passes away, he seems healthier than he was until then. (In the same manner, a plant that is being starved for water will use its final strength to flower and produce seed.)

When Mashi'ach comes, Hash-m will "slaughter" the Yetzer ha'Ra (Sukah 52a). For this reason, immediately before Mashi'ach comes the Yetzer ha'Ra will use its last vestiges of strength to overpower even those who are normally free of its influence.

Wool Silk Cotton, sports star and rock superstar

Mendel, if I was not Jewish, and you were the first Jew I ever met, I would sign up for a platinum membership in the Nazi Party.

jancsibacsi

Michael - i am sabbath observant what i am saying is religion is ok as long as the person is honest,but i see so much dishonesty among the religious that is too much to bear for me, i like the part where we sing chazzanot its fine but i see to many religious people act like dog eats dog predatory behaviour.

jancsibacsi

mendel--mendel-You are missing the point,religion is ok fine the problem is the way it is practiced,by that i mean those who are honest should not let the ones who are dishonest pull them down into the abyss,for instance with all theese molestation that are not treported by rabbis and theese so called religious men dont give a dammn about the child whos soul is in torment for the rest of his life,to me this is the lowest destructive form of behaviour from so called religious people they are the ones who created this intense hate for themself dont blame others for what you youreselfs did to youreself.

Michael

Jeff and APC,

Einstein did not believe in a personal God, and certainly not in the Judeo-Christian, biblical conception of God. But he did believe in a creative life-force of some sort that brought the universe into being.

He criticized atheism for its 'lack of humility.' Einstein fancied himself a believer in the God of Spinoza. He was also the guy that said 'God doesn't play dice with the universe.' That counts for something!

APC: Characterizing religious belief is just so blatantly offensive. I don't really need to explain why, do I? Neuroscience hasn't even scratched the surface regarding religion, and scientists abound with theories about the place of 'spiritual experiences,' and belief in God, whether its there because of evolution, or some other phenomenon. So for you to say definitively that it's an illness is to make the claim that you know better than neuroscientists. That takes some hubris that even I, a believer, don't have!

Jancsi: Why does it have to be an either/or scenario? I think it's for the glory of God that the entire universe was created out of a singularity, a subatomic particle if you will. I am awed daily by science. Evolution is incredible! And yet, religion is not dead. In the 1700s, people thought religion would die quickly, because of the Enlightenment and its consequences, but it did not. It's alive and well today, in all of its forms, good, bad, and ugly.


mendel

To Ahpe,Wool, alter. Shmar, and other self-hating Jews of their ilk:

i see religion as a brain virus. it must be passed on by carriers. usually vertically from parents, but at times horizontally transmitted. for the record i was born and raised MO. it doesnt render the entire brain useless so those infected can still succeed, just as with any virus. those infected with the fundamentalist strain tend to accomplish almost nothing useful. see religion as a brain virus. it must be passed on by carriers. usually vertically from parents, but at times horizontally transmitted. for the record i was born and raised MO. it doesnt render the entire brain useless so those infected can still succeed, just as with any virus. those infected with the fundamentalist strain tend to accomplish almost nothing useful.

In Mein Kampf, Hitler. chmok shmo, wrote that Vienne was a
repulsive conglomerate of ethnic mixes "where flourished the
dissolving bacilli of humanity, the Jews."
Hitler was so paranoiac about diseases that he said once:
" the discovery of the Jewish virus is one of the greatest
revolutions that have taken place in the world. The battle in which
we are engaged today is of the same sort as the battle waged,
during the last century by Pasteur and Koch. How many diseases have their origin in the Jewish virus ?"
"Today we must
examine ourselves
and remove from
our midst the
elements that
became bad"
(Nuremberg 1936

[If you can still write such vitriol after reading this post give a hat tip to your above quoted mentor. And we religious Jews will pray that you do tshuva so as to avoid meeting the same fate as the other Jew haters without our Holy Nation.

jancsibacsi

To me the quantum physics which says that the universe was created out of a subatomic particle makes more sense then the religion we practice today..

Jeff

I'm amused by your characterization of religion as a mental illness.

What, precisely, did I say? (I'm old now and my memory is shot.)

APC is correct; the idea that Einstein was a theist seems to be an Internet meme. He was quite vocal about his lack of belief in a personal deity, although he didn't seem to care much for aggressive atheists, either. He defined himself (to the extent he did it at all) as a Humanist. He did have an appreciation for what he perceived as an order in the universe, but a lot of that had to do with his personality; he also disliked the indeterminism of quantum theory.

(I actually do think Aquinas was mentally ill, btw. He believed one of the rewards of heaven would be the ability to witness, for eternity, the sufferings of the damned in hell. I have no problem characterizing him, like today's Calvinist evangelicals, as a psychopath.)

Turd Degree

The Rebbe would say:

"I knew I'm supposed to return on an ass, but I didn't realize I'd be given a choice."

ah-pee-chorus

Michael -

i see religion as a brain virus. it must be passed on by carriers. usually vertically from parents, but at times horizontally transmitted. for the record i was born and raised MO. it doesnt render the entire brain useless so those infected can still succeed, just as with any virus. those infected with the fundamentalist strain tend to accomplish almost nothing useful.
and einstein was not a theist in the normal usage. he blasted religion and the bible as nonsense, denied an intercessory being and was ,if anything,a pantheist.

Michael

Jeff, thanks for sharing. I agree with your sentiments, but find them very tragic, almost hopelessly so. As a left wing MO Jew, (I must be one of the two dozen left!) I detest fundamentalism, and loathe a lot of the chareidi ideology.

They hurt Israel (see kollel system), they hurt the public image of Judaism (think Weberman, Kolko, Rubashkin, etc, etc.), and they hurt people like me (mix between slifkin and Avi Weiss), who cannot speak out without fear of condemnation or a pashkevil ban.

Rabbi Hartman was a brilliant man, and a true innovator in Judaism. I don't think anyone can fill his shoes.

I'm amused by your characterization of religion as a mental illness. I guess a mental illness didn't stop theists like Isaac Newton, Galileo, Descartes, Einstein, Aquinas, Mainonides, etc, etc from being geniuses in all sorts of disciplines. But I digress. Thanks again for the thoughtful insights.

Moshe Aron Kestenbaum , Williamsburg

The rebbi would have said farikta meshigoyim. Farkakte farbrechers opgerisener naronim, a tuchus un a kopp a banda ferdin chamorim jackasses like ovadia yossef called lapid the other day

dd

it's out of place . but MMS is not here anymore , so it does not matter , they can put his pic and anything with it . he won't see it . where is the problem ?

Jeff

I'm sorry you had such a negative experience with chabad. However, judging from many comments I've read by yòu, you seem to harbor negative feelings towards ALL religious Jews. Why?

Long story. Bottom line: I despise fundamentalism. I'm convinced it will be the single most significant causal factor in humanity's demise, which I expect momentarily.

Today, Orthodoxy and Haredism are virtually synonymous. The Haredim proliferated beyond all sense of propriety and intimidated the MO into capitulation. The right wing Modern Orthodox are now Haredi in all but name, and the so-called "centrists" I refer to as "Haredi Lite". The few left wing Modern Orthodox left (all two or three dozen of them) I don't have as much of a problem with, but they, like their more conservative coreligionists, suffer from a medical condition known as testiculae in absentia.

Now that David Hartman (A"H), for whom I had great respect, is gone, the situation will only get worse. Modern Orthodoxy is dead. The Haredim killed it, and the MO helped them to dig the grave. All that's left now is to say kaddish.

If it makes you feel any better, I dislike evangelicals even more, but I don't mention it here all that often because they're outside of the scope of this blog.

Yosef ben Matitya

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGDg_xtkKu8
thanks, YTHM, this is a must watch!
I am changing (bli neder) my morning brochos to read 'shelo osani chosid'.
and add, shelo sam helki bein dovrei germanit.
apart from being crazy, they are illiterate.
on the same tombstone, yissachar is engraved once as יש שכר (sic, as in yesh sakhar, i.e. there is a reward)
the other time as ישכר(sic, as in yiskar, yishkar? go figure) followed by 'ber' in yiddish, which is בער and means ignoramus in hebrew.

put a square into a hole

To DF
Your comment was right on target.
FM Shmarya and all the rest are just looking to bash the frummies of the world. As long as that is your mission nothing else matters. Even if you are not consistant.
To Rabbi Meir Baal Hanes
Your comment cracked me up. They don't belong on FM. Shmarya and follies Are here only to bash Chabad and the religous jews.

Wool Silk Cotton, sports star and rock superstar

I've met nonJewish people who are very knowledgable about Christian theology. Their arguments on behalf of their beliefs are not worse than anything I've ever heard from frumma about Toyrah.
Of course, she had me at "what's that you're drinking"?

Alter Kocker

What would the Rebbe say?

In his present condition, not much.

rebeljew

Probably, he would say what he said in 1991.

A Yid

LAC why does the Rambam in the Laws of Kings in his explanation as to why Yeshu was not the Messiah brings up events that happened long after his death?

Lubavitchers Are Christians

LAC don't say you care about the truth when your very screen name is embodiment of ignorance and blind hatred.

Posted by: A Yid | February 12, 2013 at 02:03 PM

Please explain. They are Christians - they worship a dead man!!!

Michael

Jeff,

I'm sorry you had such a negative experience with chabad. However, judging from many comments I've read by yòu, you seem to harbor negative feelings towards ALL religious Jews. Why?

Franckarika

The lubavichers as i call them in yiddish are shtark meshuge,the satmerers are or the rest of hareidim more so the satmerers are called goilems or behieme gasses huge animals in human form:)

A Yid

LAC don't say you care about the truth when your very screen name is embodiment of ignorance and blind hatred.

YTHM

Watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGDg_xtkKu8

Lubavitchers Are Christians

Well, I said they ruined it for me. Yes, the other Haredim have certainly ruined it as well (you seem to have changed your mind about that) - but Lubavitch affected me directly and on a personal level.

Posted by: Jeff | February 12, 2013 at 01:06 PM

Jeff, I wouldn't call it changing my mind. I did learn alot on this blog, but I have never defended haredim per se.

What I have said from the beginning (even though you never believed me) was that I was reading and learning new things, but I still felt the need to point out hypocrisy and blind hatred when I see it.

In fact, a part of searching for the truth requires one to sort out the truth from the obnoxious blind hatred that we sometimes see here.

And so, yes, haredim have ruined Judaism MORE than Lubavitchers (who are Christians, no different than the early Christians who were originally Jews). But there are many things on this blog that include blind hatred, and which you would admit was blind hatred had it been said about any other minority.

Jeff

Jeff
On this topic, we're on the same page. Nuran was sarcastic; I agreed.

Posted by: Better than you | February 12, 2013 at 12:02 PM

Okay, I apologize.


Lubavitchers are Christians. They didn't ruin Judaism any more than Jesus Christ and his minions ruined Judaism.

What ruined Judaism was the rest of the hasidic haredim.

Posted by: Lubavitchers Are Christians | February 12, 2013 at 12:46 PM

Well, I said they ruined it for me. Yes, the other Haredim have certainly ruined it as well (you seem to have changed your mind about that) - but Lubavitch affected me directly and on a personal level.

Lubavitchers Are Christians


The Rebbe and his minions ruined Judaism for me.

Posted by: Jeff | February 12, 2013 at 11:03 AM


Lubavitchers are Christians. They didn't ruin Judaism any more than Jesus Christ and his minions ruined Judaism.

What ruined Judaism was the rest of the hasidic haredim.

andre

Moshe
The word is not camp but cult

Better than you

Shmarya
Stop trolling. Answer DF's comment like a man. ;)

Rebitzman

I guess it IS Adar........

Better than you

Jeff
On this topic, we're on the same page. Nuran was sarcastic; I agreed.

Shmarya

Posted by: DF | February 12, 2013 at 11:39 AM

It's been a very long time since anyone told you that you're smart, hasn't it? Who was it? Your mother? Your grandmother?

It certainly wasn't anyone else above the age of 5.

Miriam

What Would The Rebbe Say?

Aw, cut it out!

Posted by: Mike | February 12, 2013 at 10:16 AM

LOL

DF

Wait. What's wrong with this picture?

A few posts ago you made a big deal about Hamodia edited out women shoes - so this shouldn't be so much worse than shoes - surely there is no major contrast between the words and the items below it - Cuz Shmarya no women's items means anything? So why should this picture mean anything?

Don't get me wrong - I had a nice laugh at the Hamodia editing and thought it was crazy.

I also think this picture is nutty and the plastering the meshichests to is nutty.

But Shmarya you got to be consistent - either women's clothing has something to it or it doesn't but you can't have it both ways

Eli

I was told 72 virgins, not five sluts

Jeff

A bored day at the office Shmarya? Shoulda stayed in the restaurant business. Shoulda stayed married. This is all you have left. Shame

Posted by: jay spinner | February 12, 2013 at 11:28 AM

You all say the same thing, but meanwhile, if you'd clean up your collective act, he wouldn't have to do this.

jay spinner

A bored day at the office Shmarya? Shoulda stayed in the restaurant business. Shoulda stayed married. This is all you have left. Shame

Wool Silk Cotton, sports star and rock superstar

++Barry | February 12, 2013 at 10:30 AM++

LOL!

The Rebbe would say "make check payable to M. Schneerson".

The comments to this entry are closed.

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