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February 06, 2013


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steven hawkins says that we dont need a creater to explain how the universe came into being,hawkins says that quantom theory is enough and it is the reason the universe is here so there you have it .

Yep, that's the current thinking.


jeff--Hahahaha youre good, i am refering to youre previous piece about atheist,by the way i was watching a sereies about our universe and the renowned physicist steven hawkins says that we dont need a creater to explain how the universe came into being,hawkins says that quantom theory is enough and it is the reason the universe is here so there you have it .


Sadly, the discussion here devolved into an atheist love-in.

Well, you know, atheists need love too. In fact, we need it more, as we don't have a bliss-filled eternity to look forward to.

Joe Field

Soory should be "theological"

Joe Field

Posted by: rebeljew | February 07, 2013 at 08:41 AM

I am really trying to find common ground, and I agree that you’re right that any improvement, be it Jewish or any other mainstream religious order, will only come from a voice of moderation. But from a technological POV, we all know that religion is always moving like quicksilver.

On the other hand religious orders always have a very strong rightwing voice for their personal benefit, may it be for financial or just plain power, are looking to drag back the voice of moderation, to the Stone Age. But, for someone who doesn’t believe in a higher power who created this universe, you cannot expect that we should embrace religion even just in moderation, just because we are having a discussion with some fanatic who you yourself are dismayed about.


Sadly, the discussion here devolved into an atheist love-in. The Haredim will never be influenced by atheists. It is no more logical to say that G-d definitely does not exist than to say that he definitely does in a provable way. Nor will avowed atheists ever sway the moderate forces within Haredi bounds that will one day be its leaders, nor their relatively moderate allies who do believe in G-d, but not in centenarian celebrity Rabbis whose main virtue and qualification for leadership is not having died yet.

The key to making any progress is to slowly teach moderate, reasonable younger Haredim that they should form their own leadership, not simply follow a 1930s fire and brimstone trained preacher through the brain changes of aging. There is a Torah, G-d fearing way to reasonable positions on issues and life. To make it a fight over G-d is to entrench the forces of extremism and further convince them that they are doing G-d's work. It is to make the battle about something other than what it is really about. Do want to bring Haredim to a more reasonable position, or do you harbor the idea that one day, the survivors will all become atheists. If you harbor the latter idea, I am afraid that the extremist Haredim are not the only ones who are avoiding facing reality.

Eli, what me messiah?

APC, once again we are in violent agreement. Keep in mind also in the last two decades, Israel has also not benefited from waves of immigration from highly-educated contributors to the economic engine, as happened from Russia a generation ago.

If Ahmadinejad was really intelligent, he would be investing Iran's petrodollars to sustain more yeshivas and in providing financial subsidies to encourage large haredi families in Israel, to hasten the country's downfall.

to paraphrase T.S. Elliot, this is the way Israel ends, not with a bang but a whimper


Posted by: David | February 06, 2013 at 03:57 PM

David, would you mind slightly altering your screen name as I have been using that for a very long time - just so we don't get confused. Thanks...


@Jeff: also interesting to note that they run away from cities targeted by missiles at the first opportunity.


You have to realize HASHEM is REAL and ALIVE!

Posted by: YTHM | February 06, 2013 at 04:02 PM

If so, why does he need people to learn 24/7 in order to protect them?

(And what APC said.)



if the yeshivas become so filled up because charedim have become 50% of the population at which point israel will have neither the manpower nor the money or technology to have a 21st century armed forces, it will be overrun by its enemies.
were that to happen the charedim will scream, "it took too long for half the population to be sitting and learning all day! our learning wasnt enough to overcome the evils of the seculars!" ... and more stuff like that. they would ignore the reality that HASHEM is NOT REAL, and that their selfishness and delusion has brought about a second holocaust.

and you ignore that israels greatest victories took place in 1948 and 1967 when there were ALMOST NO full time learners. your own model has been shown to be a TERRIBLE predictor of israeli success vs. its enemies.
of cousre you and all good charedi delusional apologists will just come up with more unsubstantiated excuses. you are all pathetic.


If the Yeshiva's run empty and Israel starts losing wars, you will say "coincidence". "this was bound to happen", "they should have joined the army earlier" and stuff like that.

You have to realize HASHEM is REAL and ALIVE!

Joe Field

Posted by: Harold F | February 06, 2013 at 03:19 PM

I do understand your concern, but if the general population of Israel is sitting on their butts, so let it be. Nevertheless, I believe that the Israelis will eventually, not in the distant future, recognize the destructive power of the Haredim.


It's popular to blame the Haredim, but none of this is really their fault. The fact is, the government of Israel subsidizes this behavior. As long as they keep subsidizing it, they'll keep getting more of it. When it is no longer financially possible for a Haredi male to enjoy a reasonable lifestyle without working for a living, this problem will be solved; until then, it won't be.

Harold F

Actually this is great news, eventually the haredim will self-destruct.

Posted by: Joe Field | February 06, 2013 at 03:04 PM

The question is who will they take with them when they do?

Joe Field

Actually this is great news, eventually the haredim will self-destruct.


Due to the Haredim, Israel is doomed. It has no future.



Due to the Haredim, Israel is doomed. It has no future.



Posted by: Barry

thanks...and to shmarya and larry kaplan too. that is a powerful post from 2008.

is there a particular book which best deals with the failures of all the rabbinic leaders of the holocaust era ? anybody?


seymour-Yes seymour you are protected only if you learn toireh lishma,otherwise you will be punished by having v.d.:)


if I have unprotected sex but learn Torah am I protected?


they are full of it if they believe that let them go in the front line learn Torah and protect the nation


The source is



Ask the question
Were their Yeshivas in Europe like Poland circa 1935?

Posted by: Isa | February 06, 2013 at 10:03 AM

satmar already answered that question. The evil of tne zionist and secularism was just to overwhelming for the Torah learners to overcome


: BeenThereDoneThat-

true. yet the expectation of self-regulation neednt be confined to the charedim themselves. in israels case the "system" is the entire israeli society.
the much needed self-regulatory corrective backlash seems to be under way. as the percentages of charedim rises the standard of living and ability of the rest of israelis to carry their burden have fallen. as has their assent to continue doing so. lets hope the politicians heed their words and desires so the necessary corrections to the unsustainable status quo take place within the system of israel. if not, then the corrective manifestations will be geographic rather than economic and israel will be gone.


The bigger picture is that most systems are self regulating, and part of a feedback loop.

Economics 101.

They will multiply until they will be unsustainable, and then once the money runs out, will be forced into natural attrition.

One will never change their beliefs, and they will make up new ones to cover the affects of the eventual reality.


Barry -

great post, thanks.
whats the source for the sermon?


theyre a bunch of lying, self-deceptive, delusional parasites. the sooner theyre cut off monetarily the better.

A. Nuran

Then let Invisible Sky Wizard give them manna to eat.



Vishnitz Decrees: Prohibited to walk with wife in public
BHOL The Rebbei of Vishnitz announced a number of new decrees in a closed meeting with avreichim. They include: 1) It is prohibited to walk with his wife in public 2) It is recommended that women wear a scarf over their sheitels 3) Only Yiddish should be spoken in the house.


At the start of the second world war, the Belzer rebbe was sent by the Nazis with his followers to a forced labor camp in Poland; when the widespread expulsion of Jews began from there, his followers smuggled him into Hungary. From 1943, he remained in Budapest with his brother, Rabbi Mordechai Rokach. The two applied to the Zionist movement to get "certificates" to go to Palestine, even though the rebbe opposed Zionism. At the beginning of 1944, the two brothers escaped. Before leaving, Rabbi Mordechai Rokach delivered a sermon (which was published), in the name of his brother, urging those remaining behind to show courage as the Rebbe's Daas Torah proved that Hungary was safe and that the Rebbe was not leaving in flight. Two months later, the Nazis invaded; by July 1945, half a million Hungarian Jews had been murdered.

‘I wish to inform and enlighten you concerning the murmurings of many who are afraid and seized with trembling and ... worried about the future. They are saying that perhaps, heaven forbid, some danger is hanging over Hungary and that the Belze Rebbe, the Tzaddik of the generation shlita sees the future and for that reason is travelling to the Land of Israel... He, therefore going to a place of tranquility and left us, heaven forbid, to sorrow. What will be our end? Who will protect us? Who will pray for and intercede on our behalf? The truth as is known for certain by whoever is close to and a member of the circle of the Tzaddik is that he is not going in flight or running away in hase as if he wished to flee from here. The verse [in Genesis 49:15] states ‘that he saw the resting place that it was good, and the land that it was delightful’. [The reference to ‘resting place’ is to a place of exile such as Hungary, whilst the ‘land’ refers to the Land of Israel]. It would seem that the intention of ‘he saw the resting place’, the Tzaddik sees that rest and tranquillity will descend upon the inhabitants of Hungary and ‘that is was good’ that the Tzaddik sees good and all good and only good will befall our Jewish brethren, the inhabitants of Hungary’. As ‘for the land being delightful’ that refers to the supernal delights that dwell in the Land of Israel and the Tzaddik desires to travel to Palestine only to partake of those supernal delights, and not because heaven forbid he fears that Hungary is not a safe place of rest.’

This uplifting sermon should be contrasted with Churchill's speech to Parliament on being made prime minister

Churchill stated to the Parliament that

“I would say to the House, as I said to those who have joined this government: I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat.

We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. You ask, what is our policy? I can say: It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us; to wage war against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: It is victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival.”

The Hareidim cannot cope with being given the unpalatable truth which they believe they can avoid by magic, and interpret anyone who tells them otherwise as cursing them. A few weeks ago reference was made to a children's book containing a cartoon showing Zionists proclaiming 'Only with blood will we get the Land' whilst standing by a train deporting Jews.

How is this Zionist 'blood' statement any different from Churchill's blood promise? In Hareidi eyes Churchill should have told Parliament:- 'Why worry about blood, sweat, toil and tears when we have prayer, modesty, winterized trucks and tea". By saying this and believing this he would have magically avoided the pain and cost of war just as those doomed Hungarian Jews would have, had not the Zionists put a curse on them by refusing to take the Belzer's Rebbe Daas Torah as true.


If you own Israeli bonds and are counting on them to help finance your retirement, you should consider cashing them in sooner than later, while the Israeli government can still meet its obligations.

The video noted that the ultra Orthodox (Haredim) made up 13% of Israel's Jewish population in 2010 and projected that it would grow to 20% by 2030. Elsewhere I have read that 25% of this year's Jewish grade 1 cohort was Haredi and that 49% of Jewish Israelis who should be reporting for the draft and reserve duty no longer do so.

I don't suppose the Third Reich or the Holocaust are covered in the Haredi curriculum. Those who don't learn from history are destined to repeat it.


They also have the tooth fairy to bring them money so they do not have to work.

Posted by: Eli, what me messiah?



"Full-time study" - my foot. Walk into any Yeshiva and you'll see the same thing: They do a little learning, they get a cup of coffee, they talk with their wives on the cell phone, they Kibbitz and they Hock.
As a retired rabbi once told me: A man who works and learns everyday will accomplish more than a Leidik-Geyer who "Kvitches Di Bank" (lit. "squeezes the chair") all day.
No - learning is not enough. RE: Chevron 1929, Lublin, Lomza, Pressburg, Chust, Kamenetz, Ramailes, Novardok, and on and on and on...


rebeljew--Theese yeshiva students are just living in make beleive,since the whole toireh is a fabrication its mostly fantasy the are just carrying on the legacy of never living in reality,realty is what happened in ww2 that we need to protect ourselfs since no one will do it for us.


This is the reason Israel is going bankrupt, and why the Zionist dream is no more.


Idiotic ideology. And not the way of the Torah. Why didn't Moshe just have the Jews learn Torah, and then they would not have to go 40 years in the desert to avoid trouble. Why did Yehoshua "choose young men" to fight? Why did Gad and Reuven cross first? They could have just studied their way into the land without weapons. Why did Jewish kings build armies?

Just a thought, but do Haredim lock their doors? Do they put security systems in their homes? (Here's a hint: you can't take an ideal, like tzadikim learning Torah, and apply it to everyday people and situations. You are confusing stories and reality.)

Time is long since past that the Haredim be given the independence from the evil treife medina that they crave so much on their own land governed by Haredi "Torah" law. They can protect it through Torah learning and feed it through manna. No country should have to give Haredistan foreign aid.

Bas Melech

Yeshiva students really believe it. Nothing will change their opinion. If a rocket hits a yeshiva, they'll claim that the students did not study enough.

They have to recognize that study and self defense are both important.

Also, how many yeshiva student really study full time?


Ask the question
Were their Yeshivas in Europe like Poland circa 1935?


Has that student been identified?

Eli, what me messiah?

They also have the tooth fairy to bring them money so they do not have to work.

Alter Kocker

Because my neanderthal friend, Israel is surrounded by enemies and missiles will not be deterred by your silly superstition.


let them delude themselfs theese yeshiva students can afford it, since they know there is a strong jewish army,but when real tragedy strikes like a rocket killing dozens then they will wake up from their fantasy,if a rocket would strike a yeshiva full of students and kill many lets see then how they will talk.

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