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February 20, 2013

Increasing Rate Of Haredi And MO Divorce Due To Facebook, Some Claim

Placing wedding ring on bride's finger“Before, someone would get divorced and leave the community. Now even if they move, you see them [on Facebook] and they take off their wig and they go to Miami and they are drinking a cocktail, and you ask yourself, why should I be in prison? Let me get out.”

 

Orthodox Jewish divorce spurred by technology, some say
Danielle Tcholakian • Metro

Counselors and community members are reporting a rise in divorce in the Orthodox Jewish community, and some say Facebook is to blame.

But Baruch Herzfeld, a community liason between the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox communities in Brooklyn, says “the technology is the excuse.”

“There is unhappiness, and Facebook presents options,” Herzfeld explained.

Hindie Klein, Director of Clinical Projects for Ohel Children’s Home and Family Services, also felt that social media can be “very seductive.”

Klein said that seeing what other people have and how they live can lead to comparisons that can and do contribute to divorce.

“Before, someone would get divorced and leave the community,” Herzfeld elaborated. “Now even if they move, you see them [on Facebook] and they take off their wig and they go to Miami and they are drinking a cocktail, and you ask yourself, why should I be in prison? Let me get out.”

Lani Santo works at Footsteps, an organization that helps men and women who want to leave the ultra-Orthodox community. Santo reported seeing an increase in the number of people leaving ultra-Orthodox communities and said “technology is a piece of that.”

“It used to be that they had to go to the library, sneak out and physically get to a place where they can find more information — and now you have technology at your fingertips, even in the Orthodox community,” Santo said.

She said the internet allows restless, questioning young people in the ultra-Orthodox community to see “groups of people that have lived successful lives outside of the community.”

Herzfeld brought up the fact that ultra-Orthodox Jewish women and men marry very young, and often don’t know each other very well beforehand, which Santo says contributes to why a lot of the women she works with choose to divorce and even leave the community entirely.

Fraidy Reiss is one of those women — on a few levels, in fact: Reiss is divorced and left her ultra-Orthodox community, but is also the daughter of divorced Orthodox Jewish parents, a rare experience for her generation.

“I was the only one I knew whose parents were divorced,” Reiss said. “It was like I had two heads because my parents were divorced, I was considered really just a freak.”

Reiss said she thinks it’s getting easier simply because it’s becoming more common.

“It’s hard to consider a certain group of people freaks when the group gets bigger and bigger,” she pointed out.

But Santo said it’s often still a struggle, and can be a scary one at that.

“The entire community will pool their resources to make sure whoever’s leaving doesn’t get custody of the children, whether it’s a man or a woman,” Santo said. “Things get incredibly ugly, it’s not a fair game that’s being played.”

Reiss knew about that first-hand: she said that when she attempted to divorce her husband and get custody of her two daughters, one rabbi threatened to kidnap her children, and another threatened to testify in court that she was an unfit mother.

It wasn’t only rabbis, however: her friends wanted to testify against her as well.

She doesn’t hold it against them. Having grown up in the community, she understands what motivates them.

“There’s a belief in that community that if you’re not religious, you’re unstable and not a fit mother,” Reiss explained. “They really believe the kids are not going to have a good life.”…

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They used to blame movies, tv, and the telephone. Why not acknowledge that it is the shidduch system? Three to seven "dates" and pressure to make a commitment cause young people to marry without knowing their future spouse.

Another reason for more divorces today than 30 years ago is that divorce has become more acceptable in the frum community.

"She said the internet allows restless, questioning young people in the ultra-Orthodox community to see “groups of people that have lived successful lives outside of the community.”

Enough said. All the bad stuff people talk about the internet, which is just porn stuff, what they really worry about is the land of information.

Technology continues to grow at a fast pace, so information will become more accessible. Smartphones.

am i reading here that it's all the fault of the women?
well, maybe this very attitude of blaming the ladies & keeping the husbands free of any blame is the cause of it all?

Gold -- All the bad stuff people talk about the internet, which is just porn stuff,
It is far better that someone see porn then molest a child,and in the frum community you have rampant molestation everyday you hear a new incident of molestation, besides porn doesnt harm others besides youreself if it doest at all.

("How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm")

Rabbi, Rabbi, I’ve been thinking
Said the rebbitzen
The internet makes it no longer calm
Among the congregation that’s frum
The rabbi started davening and then he broke down
He took out his siddur and read a page
And his face took on a frown

How ya gonna keep them cloistered and shuttered
After they’ve seen Facebook
How ya gonna keep ‘em away from Broadway
Getting’ divorced and eatin’ the treif
How ya gonna keep em totally flustered
And keep them on the hook
They’ll never want to wear tallis again
All our work to scare them has been in vain
How ya gonna keep them cloistered and shuttered
After they’ve seen Facebook


Rabbi, Rabbi, you’re mistaken
Said the rebbitzen
Once a Chasid, always be frum
We made sure they’re under our thumb
Rabbi, Rabbi they won’t eat bacon
They’re with us for life
Though the internet will do some mischief
She’ll still be a good wife

How ya gonna keep them cloistered and shuttered
After they’ve seen Facebook
How ya gonna keep ‘em away from Broadway
Getting’ divorced and eatin’ the treif
How ya gonna keep em totally flustered
And keep them on the hook
Imagine Rabbi meeting your flock
You’ll wish that you watched them like a hawk
How ya gonna keep them cloistered and shuttered
After they’ve seen Facebook

i blamed it on the rise of e-rate internet in the libraries, but the reporter didnt believe me on that.

It really gets down to the hierarchy of values that all cultures establish. Some place Talmudic study as the totality of existence, others place Zionism at the pinnacle. Charedim have devolved into a monolithic group solely dedicated to absolute, blind preservation of cultural identity. Besides that the main focus is avoiding seminal emissions outside of appropriate marital intercourse. Those values have replaced almost every other consideration. Charedim embrace all sorts of evil such as institutionalized theft, etc, but as long as you wear black and avoid sexual arousal, it's all good. Kind of a limited agenda.

It's amazing that these ultra orthodox cling to their old fashioned idea of living a life with meaning as opposed to the value of drinking cocktails in Miami.

Mrs. Reiss fails to understand them. They don't think the non-religious are unstable or can't be good mothers. That would obviously be ridiculous. The reason they will fight to keep their children with the orthodox parent is that in their view, a life that is not lived with the lofty ideals of Judaism is a spiritually wasted life. They still believe that man was put here for a purpose and not just to have your hair blow freely in wind while drinking cocktails.

the orthodox create a system to enslavery women and then women find out that it's all basis on lies and want their freedom from slavery. where is the surprise? cooking, cleaning, having sex without any pleasure with someone you don't feel any desire, taking care each year of a major number of kids, shortage of money and there's much more to add to this list.I Suggest for orthodox men to change position for just one year with their wives and I assure you that in the end of this year the number of divorce would be much higher. perhaps we wouldn't find a single couple together.

a life that is not lived with the lofty ideals of Judaism is a spiritually wasted life.

You got to be kidding? A life of ignorance, misogyny, poverty, and oppression is a spiritual life?

Unfortunately, Flora Freida, cooking, cleaning and taking care of children are part of the responsibilities of life. I understand that it's very tempting to be free to watch movies all day, but to the neanderthal ultra orthodox, that's not what life's about. Sex without pleasure? Aside from certain sects of Chassidic Judaism, pleasurable sex for both parties is strongly encouraged.

Mr Jerryny, have you ever strolled through an ultra orthodox neighborhood? Poverty is not what usually comes to mind. The majority of women seem to be very happy as well. Ignorance? While I believe that it's in their best interest for long term survival to place a stronger emphasis on secular education, the majority can hardly be called ignorant. As far as oppression, what is oppression to one is protection to another. It all depends on your perspective. All will agree that drinking cocktails in Miami is not as spiritually uplifting as prayer. No?

"But Baruch Herzfeld, a community liason [sic] between the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox communities in Brooklyn. . ."

What kind of bullshit is this? Community liaison, my ass!

Posted by: flora freida | February 20, 2013 at 10:47 AM
“Suggest for orthodox men to change position for just one year with their wives”

You are not suggesting that the woman should be on the top during sex, and that might help with their marriage. Maybe you have a point, size might make a difference, and when the woman is on the top, they might get an orgasm

@dovi
Don't you become ignorant. First of all, your not in the majority of orthodox households to know the majority are happy. Some people are just good actors.

I compare it to a person who is abusive to their spouse. They wouldn't show you blatantly that their abusive around you.

A women can be happy on the outside, but behind closed doors they could be miserable and unhappy.

The thing is, in the past many would question but answers were not forthcoming as one had to sneak about to obtain said answers. The rate at which the ultra-orthodox would leave the fold was small as many would not risk the devil they know to gain knowledge of the devil they didn't. Now with technology, those questions get answered or at least there is more information. Now I don't subscribe to the part about taking off the wig and sipping a cocktail in Miami, but what I do subscribe to is the notion that those who are questioning the community and it's values are seeing alternative opinions, seeing life without the artificial limitations placed by the community. Those bristling against those limitations no longer have to live lives of quiet desperation. The internet provides a window to the world outside of orthodoxy and that in itself places fear into the heart of the community leaders as they have cloistered and admonished their followers against seeking the outside world.

@ Alter Kocker

Well said.

Posted by: dovi | February 20, 2013 at 11:23 AM
“As far as oppression, what is oppression to one is protection to another. It all depends on your perspective. All will agree that drinking cocktails in Miami is not as spiritually uplifting as prayer. No?”

This line that woman are yearning for protection which actually is oppression, has been used in every society for the last 1000 years, but for the people who fought for women’s rights we will still be in the dark ages, where woman was legally considered chattel of the husband, no different than Torah law. Without a doubt, I am positive that woman are not interested in protection as the horses and cattle.

“Suggest for orthodox men to change position for just one year with their wives”
Posted by: flora freida

"You are not suggesting that the woman should be on the top during sex, and that might help with their marriage."
Posted by: Joe Field

Lmao.

Gold, no doubt that there are women that are unhappy within the orthodox community for a wide variety of reasons. No one claims that orthodoxy is a perfect society. However it would be dishonest to assume that a even a significant percentage are unhappy due to perceived mysgynistic attitudes within orthodoxy.

Joe Field, I meant more of a general concept that protection of ones culture and values can be perceived as oppression to another society. I've never heard the line of women yearning for protection but I can imagine that that is historically accurate to a certain degree. As far as Torah Law considering women chattel, that is an obvious misconception. Talmudic law clearly stipulates that a woman is not considered a monetary possession of the husband. The marriage contract spells out the obligations a husband has to his wife including his obligation to provide her with sexual satisfaction.

Alter Kocker, alternative options within the framework of orthodoxy may be a healthy option for some. What most within the orthodox community fear is the allure of options that will lead to a degenerate life. We place artificial limitation on our children all the time. Which parent tells their five year old that if they choose to eat candy for supper that they would respect their decision. Or which parent encourages their teenager to go see what drugs are all about so that they can better choose what path in life they'd like to choose. These are all "artificial limitations". Orthodoxy has developed limitations in order to protect their old fashioned belief that life has meaning and purpose.

If the haredi culture was so valid, it wouldn't need to keep its followers from being exposed to the Internet or other aspects of the modern world.

Posted by: dovi | February 20, 2013 at 12:09 PM

No matter how you want to slice or dice it, every society who infringes on someone else rights, using protection of its value and culture excuse because, they are in charge and we all know that, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I beg to disagree with your assertion that, “Torah Law considering women chattel that is an obvious misconception” is totally faults, inheritance, divorce, and witness laws, provides ample corroboration that according to Torah Law, women are considered property not owners. Don’t use sexual pleasure requirements as corroborate evidence, having pleasurable sex doesn’t substitute for owing property or have equality in divorce proceedings.

I guess they feel all that e-rate money will help solve this problem - NOT! Luke.

"have you ever strolled through an ultra orthodox neighborhood? Poverty is not what usually comes to mind. The majority of women seem to be very happy as well"
I have. I've spent a lot of time in religious areas in Flatbush, Boro Park, Oak Park (MI) and Rogers Park. The ultra orthodox women I've seen all look tired and miserable. I've also seen how some of the ones I know scramble to appear "perfect" in front of their community. Even almost going through a panic attack to move her car before candle lighting while doing a billion other things. Don't try to pass off this ridiculous fallacy with no basis in reality.


All will agree that drinking cocktails in Miami is not as spiritually uplifting as prayer. No?"
I wouldn't agree with that either. What's so spiritually uplifting about praying?

Joe Field, please give me some examples of an absolute right that is being infringed upon?

O woman can't own property? A woman can't inherit? These are also misconceptions. Of course the woman can own property and she inherits where there are no sons to inherit the family estate. She is the owner of those properties with certain rights awarded to the husband as part of the marriage arrangement. I see no logical connection between not being a valid witness to being considered property.

There is no connection between monetary ownership of property to a legal and binding marriage. Obviously the Torah view is that the man has taken the woman for a wife, with her consent, as opposed to a woman taking a the man in marriage. She therefore cannot undo what she hasn't done. Anyone familiar with legal terms will have no problem understanding that the man technically owns the marriage, not the woman.

Runner1983. I don't know what you consider "haredi". It seems anyone wearing a black kippah today is categorized as haredi. But haredi culture is not valid? Within what context is it not valid? You can either choose to live by that lifestyle or not but it's difficult to suggest that it's not valid.

The reason the ultra orthodox work on limiting the internet is because it poses a risk to their members of being drawn to an alternate and in their view less meaningful life. The allure for the meaningless Hollywood culture we live in today is great even for the more mature mind, let alone the untrained, inexperienced, impressionable young mind. It would be ludicrous for any society to encourage exposing their youth to every sort of degenerate activity and then expect them to choose the successful path. It's the parents and leaders obligation to direct. Direction is not oppression.

Ultra orthodox culture is so wonderful that it can't even stand up to competition from a copy of People magazine.

Dovi, your culture is pathetic. Been there, done that.

What exactly do you mean when you claim 'we live in a Hollywood culture'? I don't know anyone of any religion who 'lives in a Hollywood culture'.

The possibility of someone being allowed to think for themselves and make their own decisions without being a brainless automaton who needs the rabbi to decide everything for them, is a very scary thought for you.
It could lead to people leaving the ghetto, like so many did one hundred years ago.

If Facebook makes you leave your religion, then the problem is not Facebook. The problem is the religion.

The only people who still yearn for the shtetl are those who never actually lived in one.

It's amusing to see someone call a culture that has endured for thousands of years through countless different situations as being "pathetic". But be that as it may, you should at least try to understand the posts on this thread. One cannot deny the tremendous influence of Hollywood and everything degenerate that comes along with it on our Western culture. Who said anything about religions living in a Hollywood culture???

It's also unfortunate to see that one who seeks counsel with someone who is more intellegent and experienced than them as being "brainless". Counsel is something that should be sought after by people of every culture, provided you seek the counsel of one who is truly competent. That can at times be a challenge.

Facebook does not make people leave their religion. It's when people's actual connection to their religious beliefs are weak that they choose to leave. Most who leave will return when they realize they've traded meaning for nothingness. But even the most committed can be tempted by physical desire. It's not a reflection of the religion but the weakness of man.

All will agree that drinking cocktails in Miami is not as spiritually uplifting as prayer.

Can there not be time to accomodate both?

@dovi

Why don't you move to China?

"It's when people's actual connection to their religious beliefs are weak that they choose to leave."

I highly doubt that. Maybe your faith is wavering.

O woman can't own property? A woman can't inherit? These are also misconceptions. Of course the woman can own property and she inherits where there are no sons to inherit the family estate
Posted by: dovi

the one with the misconceptions is you. you may not like what the torah says and what the halacha is. you may find it distasteful and pretend it means something other than what it does. that doesnt change the facts. the torah lists the things owned by a man and they include his wife. a married woman owns no property. everything belongs to hubby including what SHE earns. thats why a woman may not give tzedaka. she has no rights of inheritance when she has brothers. if a woman is raped she receives nothing. if unmarried, the rapist must pay her father the diminished value (to HIM) of a non-virgin vs. a virgin. if she was married, the rapist is killed for stealing what belongs to another man. a woman cant be a witness, judge, king, rabbi . the author of these rules could not possibly be any clearer as to their intentions for the status of females. they are just above slaves.

talmud babli shabbat 152a-

women are sacks of shit

baba batra 16a-

woe to those whose children are female

Posted by: dovi | February 20, 2013 at 02:15 PM

“Please give me some examples of an absolute right that is being infringed upon?”
Plan and simple, the obsolete rights of the husband Vis-à-vis the wife, today’s modern understands that the husband and wife should be equal in the partnership called marriage, the Jewish orthodox views, are the same as the islamist, who want to control their wife's.

Referring to the Torah inheritance laws, no amount of pilpul will help you slither out of your misrepresentation, the bottom line is that the wife will not get any property if she has any children.

Additionally you wrote, “Anyone familiar with legal terms will have no problem understanding that the man technically owns the marriage, not the woman.” Exactly my point, don’t try to mislead the public my claiming that woman want the protection of being an object , to the liking of the husband, and he and only he can decide what is good for her.

Finally, Torah Law is not a culture, the arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively, or eating certain ethnic foods or certain sports leisure’s would be considered a culture. Therefore, Jewish orthodoxy is not protection of a culture but, an outdated religious view of life.

ThE thing today is that you haveto find a way to enjoy life like everyone but to keep connected still to the community. not just for the children but even to enjoy shmuzing with your old friends and to hang out with your own kind. Me and my wife moved to monsey from BP 2 yrs ago and its been a wild ride. Theres couples on our block that do swinging every motz shabbos no joke. And their pretty open about it sowe tried it a few times but I didn't get into it, but not becaus the frumkeit or anything it just wasnt so great. The point is that these days you can come to shul in a shtreimel and gartel and be completely wild also. Its the couples that dont let themselves breath that self destruct.

Orthodoxy has developed limitations in order to protect their old fashioned belief that life has meaning and purpose.

Posted by: dovi


i dont follow the mitzvos anymore. my life still has meaning and purpose. thinking that not turning lights on one day a week and not eating meat and milk together somehow gives ones life meaning and purpose is bizarre.
in fact believing in something for which theres no evidence (the torah) and conducting ones life according to the often senseless and immoral rulings contained therein has the exact opposite effect. it can remove much of the meaning and purpose from ones existence.

Posted by: Gold | February 20, 2013 at 12:06 PM

Thanks

I must have missed the bus to get to the cocktail sipping party in Miami.....damn!

Posted by: dovi | February 20, 2013 at 02:15 PM

After reading WoolSilkCotton post @ 2:58 I stand corrected, current Jewish Orthodoxy is not a religion, indeed it is a culture, which started a few hundred years ago and with each passing generation it consumed more and more of the Jewish body.

Good Job WSC,Ah-Pee-Chorus

dovi, yesher koach. It's been some time since I came across such a prodigious collection of defense mechanisms and stereotypes. It is impossible to take you seriously.

You know, if you keep saying these things over and over, you may actually convince yourself.

Joe Field -

thanks and nice job yourself!

"However it would be dishonest to assume that a even a significant percentage are unhappy due to perceived mysgynistic attitudes within orthodoxy."

It may be wrong, but why "dishonest?" Because you don't like the accusation?

And what is a significant percentage anyway?

Posted by: dovi | February 20, 2013 at 03:32 PM

Haredi culture has most definitely not "endured for thousands of years," as you put it. Haredi Judaism was a reaction the Enlightenment. Among its central theses are the contention that "innovation" is forbidden. That is in direct contradiction to thousands of years of jewish practice and religious evolution. Culturally speaking, Moses, Joshua and Samuel never wore a shtreimel. They didn't speak Yiddish and the didn't demand government subsidies or exemptions from military service.

When you attend a BT yeshiva, you hear nothing but Dovi's drek 24/7.

After a few weeks, you start spouting it to new arrivals. It helps you convince yourself of the drek as you repeat it to others.

Eventually you realize that it's just a brainwashing technique, and if you have a bit of courage, you toss the black hat in the trash and leave.

If leaving causes you too much anxiety- that you will lose all your new pseudo friends and your no brainer frum lifestyle- then you stay on.

Trying to think for yourself and being honest with yourself is the hardest thing in the world to do. It's so much easier to be a part of a religious cult, especially one that celebrates laziness. Most cults require hard work on behalf of the Leader. Jewish cults only require a costume and sleeping late each day.

Im trapped unfortunatly cant wait to get outa here soon hopefully the years here have been by far the worst of my life being stifled and being bullyied by this cult like version of judaism i say to you reliogion . Go shove your religion up your fucking ass no thank you . ps thanks for ruining my life upto now

Dovi, in reponse to my post, you write:

"The reason the ultra orthodox work on limiting the internet is because it poses a risk to their members of being drawn to an alternate and in their view less meaningful life. The allure for the meaningless Hollywood culture we live in today is great even for the more mature mind, let alone the untrained, inexperienced, impressionable young mind. It would be ludicrous for any society to encourage exposing their youth to every sort of degenerate activity and then expect them to choose the successful path. It's the parents and leaders obligation to direct. Direction is not oppression."

Less meaningful life? Give us a break! The Internet is a rich source of knowledge, and has a lot to offer any individual. It is a window on the world. We in the non-haredi community teach our children how to use the Internet and what is good and what is bad by teaching them values, and to help them develop their own common sense and critical judgment. The best way to help you child become a well adjusted adult is to teach children these values and how to use their own G_d given free will and when sufficiently mature, to make their own decisions.

Dovi, I have raised my children to value diversity, to understand and appreciate other cultures, to challenge authority figures and not take what they say at face value, to develop a life-long appreciation for education in the arts and sciences, to develop a very strong work ethic so they can support their familes and to contribute to make this world a better place. Dovi, how do you raise your children?

You mentioned the term "degenerate activity" when talking about the non-haredi community. The haredi community, on an anecdotal basis, has more instances of child sexual abuse that the non-haredi Jewish community. What is disgusting, is that many of your rabbis order the victim and their family not to go to the police, and if they do, they are vilified, threatened and shunned by the haredi community. This provides the abuser (sometimes a rabbi) an opportunity to abuse other children. What is wrong with your culture? In the area of protecting children, don't you realise you are not practicing Judaism, but something else?

A study should be conducted by a researcher to determine why child sexual abuse is such a problem within the haredi community. Perhaps its because you separate boys and girls as they grow up, and therefore, the boys do not develop the interpersonal skills needed to interface with girls, or to control their hormones.



Posted by: james bond | February 20, 2013 at 05:40 PM

You need to make a run for it, sitting and complaining will not change a thing. It is not easy but I made the change and I will never change places.

I could see that my post disturb some of you and that's good.
Joe Field if he (she) is having sex with someone that she (he) doesn't desire it doesn't matter who's on top, its consensual rape. But I understand that in your poor mind that would make all the difference.
Dovi I agree that cleaning and cooking is part of life. Go there and help. there's more interesting things for a woman to do than watching movies. What about real quality time with the kids?
what is sad about this, is the one standing an defending orthodox are men. Sarah, Esther, Pnina can't even speak for herself.
they risk to be sent for therapy with one like weberman.I believe that some of them are happy but the ones that are not can't speak, they risk to lose everything.

if he (she) is having sex with someone that she (he) doesn't desire it doesn't matter who's on top, its consensual rape.
Posted by: flora freida

I never thought of it like that.

Posted by: flora freida | February 20, 2013 at 05:47 PM

Sorry that didn’t get my pun, I just couldn’t resist, isn’t Purim in a few days?I was hoping that you will have a superb comeback.

if he (she) is having sex with someone that she (he) doesn't desire it doesn't matter who's on top, its consensual rape.
Posted by: flora freida

Posted by: Gold | February 20, 2013 at 06:03 PM


This is a typical "change definitions" BS.

"Animals also people", "donkeys are also cars" ...

Joe Field I hold no grudges against you. I'm open to debate. Purim sameach.

TORAH LAWS REGARDING WOMEN

The following items are actual Halachos (Jewish laws) which apply to women, and are not only statements of outlook. There are more where these came from.

There are also many parts of Gemara (Talmud) and commentaries about women, which are not written as halachic rulings, but are just as demeaning to women.

• Women are invalid witnesses.

• Women are invalid to judge.

• A woman is always subject to her father until she is subject to her husband (Ketubot 48a)

• A daughter may be betrothed by her father at his will.

• A woman may not betroth her daughter.

• It is the father's right to betroth his daughter but not his son.

• A father may sell his daughter as a maidservant (if she is under age 12. But the Rambam says that this is only when the laws of Yovel are practiced, and only by a man who is impoverished, and then afterwards if he earns enough money he should redeem her after she is sold “to prevent shame to the family.”)

• Only a man can initiate marriage, a woman can not. Kiddushin 5b: "Our rabbis teach: How by money? If he gave her money or something worth money and said 'By this you are sanctified to me, by this you are betrothed to me, by this you are my wife' - she is married, but if she gave to him and said 'By this I am sanctified to you, by this I am betrothed to you, by this I am your wife' - she is not married.

• A married woman has no property or money of her own.

• A daughter does not inherit from her parents when there are sons.

• The husband inherits from his wife, but the wife does not inherit from her husband.

• A woman does not inherit from her sons or daughters.

• A Kohen (male priest) may not marry a harlot, a profaned woman, or divorcee.

• A divorced daughter of a Kohen is not worthy of marriage to a Kohen since she is not worthy of him in purity and because she is tainted.

cont.

• A Kohen who is divorced, had inappropriate sexual relations, or even one who has raped women is allowed to eat the terumah, work in the Holy Temple and marry “appropriate and pure women”.

• A woman is not supposed to perform a circumcision if there is a Jewish man around who knows how (a d’rabanan, rabbinic law).

• A woman is not supposed to read from the Torah in public (a d’rabanan, rabbinic law).

• The reason given for a woman not reading from the Torah in public is “due to the public's honor” (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim, paragraph 282 section three).

• Women, slaves and minors are not counted towards an after-meal quorum (a d’rabanan). “If two men and a woman eat, the woman does not count.” (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chayim, paragraph 199, section six)

• When lives are in danger the man must be saved before the woman (Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah, paragraph 252, section eight)

• Regarding the above the Taz wrote in subsection six: "This means that a man and a woman are in danger of drowning in the river... and it seems to me the reason is that the man is obligated to fulfill more commandments."

• But this one takes the cake (and the matza!): The Tosfot wrote on Tractate Pesachim 4b: "In any case, were checking for chametz from the Torah, we would not believe women because it is great effort and requires precision, as is evident from the Jerusalem Talmud, which explains that women are lazy." The Shach (Yoreh Deah, paragraph 127, subsection 30) expanded upon this: "In that which involves bother women should not be trusted, for women are lazy, as the Tosfot wrote [there] and thus I was taught, that women are not faithful koshering the hindquarters, for there is no greater bother, and due to their laziness they will not be too fastidious." And the Mishnah Berura (paragraph 437, subsection 18) concurred: "From the outset, one should not command these [women, slaves, and minors] to search [for chametz], since the search is a bother and one should be wary lest they become lazy."

• And as stated in another post above, a woman is not allowed to divorce a man, only a man is allowed to divorce a woman.

Posted by: Abracadabra | February 20, 2013 at 07:10 PM

Case closed. Dovi, what you say?

Ah-pi-chorus, looks like you need a polishing up on your Ketubot. The woman owns property. The husband has the rights to the "fruits" or the monetary benefit for as long as they are married. The husband cannot sell his wifes property, they don't belong to him. A woman's wages go to the husband in exchange for his obligation to provide for her. This is a part of the contractual agreement, not due to her inability to own property. A man can give a woman a gift with the explicit intent that her husband have no rights over it.

You mention the payments for rape, yet you fail to mention that the payments only go to the father for a girl 12 1/2 and younger. Over that age she is entitled to the payment.

If a man rapes a married woman he gets killed for stealing what belongs to another man? Oh really??!! Since when does stealing carry the death penalty? He gets killed for adultery with a married woman.

"A woman may only initiate the betrothal process through reverse cowgirl"
(Piskey D'Shmarya)

Joe Field, it looks like you can use na little polishing up on your Yesh Nochlin. A woman inherits her father if there are no sons. Her having children is irrelevent to the laws of inheritance.

Is that the only absolute right you can come up with? I didn't know that what is accepted by today's society is the absolute authority.

True, the Torah Law is not "culture" but many things that have developed over the centuries, many of which were in response to different physical and spiritual challenges are a part of the collective culture of Judaism.

Dovi, the sad part is that you actually believe any of that idiotic shit still applies today.

Posted by: dovi | February 20, 2013 at 07:45 PM

Stealing? If a man steals another man (forced bondage) he's put to death.
You aren't discrediting anyone by nitpicking minor errors in their rebuttals. The fact that you openly ignore valid points and refuse to engage them serves only to discredit you

Skeptical Yid, I am not familiar enough with haredi orthodoxy and I haven't addressed it. I don't believe that what is labeled today as haredi orthodoxy existed for thousands of years. They've evolved to what they are today just as any movement has evolved due to their response in protecting their own beliefs and culture. You can disagree with that and still be ultra orthodox. As I mentioned, it seems anyone wearing a black kippah today is labeled as haredi, but until recently that was not so. They don't all agree on everything. Innovation is encouraged if it helps to stregnthen the common goal and ideals of Judaism

Runner1983, the words degenerate activity were not referring to anything non-haredi. Please read my post over.

I applaud your raising your children with tolerance and values that are inherent in Judaism. Your approach to controlled and responsible use of the internet with your children is definitely a sensible approach. But why do I see so much intolernace in this board for those who take a different approach. If a segment of the community feels that the risks of the internet outweigh the potential benefits, then so be it. We all serve the same Creator. You ask how I raise my own children..I would say that I fall somewhere in between your approach and that of the Haredim (whatever that label truly means).

Woolsilk, indeed the laws do apply today unless a valid will was written.

Skeptical, these are not technical points but rather fundamental aspects of marriage. A woman IS NOT PROPERTY OWNED BY A HUSBAND. Clearly the Torah's view of the roles of men and women are different than what Western culture would like it to be. The laws mentioned in these posts stem from that outlook.

I'm done. Good night to all.

Abracadabra -

great comprehensive list.

Posted by: dovi | February 20, 2013 at 07:54 PM
You wrote that, “Is that the only absolute right you can come up with? I didn't know that what is accepted by today's society is the absolute authority”


Indeed, today’s society’s rules are the absolute final authority in the current setting, nevertheless, 100 years henceforth gay rights will be frowned upon as slavery. As the world moves on, Jewish Orthodoxy is wedged in past, they don’t believe in changing times.


Finally, as I said what we are discussing is a courtesy reading of Jewish law as promulgated for the last few hundred years. I am not in a Yeshiva and I am not subject to your pulpil defense of the Jewish Law. The point is that the Torah was a collection of laws that was established for that timeframe. As time passes civilization rules are modified and what was acceptable 4000 years ago, like enslaving people, death penalty for gay sex, or after you conquer your enemy it was commended to kill the woman and children of your enemy, is not acceptable now, no matter how you twist and try to defend the savagery of the past.

There are plenty of people who Shidduch date and are happily married (I have and am happily in love and married for years now) and there are many people who do so and are miserable.

There are Virtually no chasiddish circles that actually don't give the kids a choice to get married and just about anyone has the choice to leave the community.
Even in the strictest communities you can pick up leave and marry whoever you want. Does that mean your friends and family will approve? NO. Do they have to approve NO. Do they have to support you NO. Will it be hard? YES is that life YES

People marry people that their friends and families hate all the time.

The fact that you may not have the approval of your family and you may lose your friends if you start living a lifestyle that they are opposed too doesn't mean that your are "forced" to "live in a cult" it just means that you have too decide to make new friends if you leave your current community.

Baalei Tshuva deal with this in the opposite direction all the time, people that convert out of any religion to another (if their family is religious) deal with this all the time, in fact anyone who decides to radically change their lifestyle deals with this.

If these woman wanted to leave they could just pick up and go. NO ONE would stop them. Once you have kids if the parents can't reach an agreement as too custody the SECULAR courts will decide who gets the kids based on what they determine is in the best interest of the children regardless of what the parents want.

Batei Din CANNOT DECIDE AND ENFORCE custody. they simply cannot do it. The fact that in many cases SECULAR psychologists will recommend that the children keep going to the same schools and keep the same friends they had before the divorce is not any religions fault (I happen to think its common sense)

Then there are the smarties like Baruch Herzfeld who dont bother with a divorce or with Miami, but go to the Dominican Republic... (how about google Domican Republic and resort and see what comes up) or the photos he blatantly shows off of him and mistress'. S he's one to really talk... and proclaim himsefl a liaison.

I'm kind of tired of the same old, same old from Herzfeld and this Reiss woman... they promote themselves so much, its as if they have a PR machine. At least give us new characters, new stories...

Posted by: af | February 20, 2013 at 10:03 PM

I am perplex, what are you trying to say? Are people enslaved in their community in the real sense of slavery absolutely no, but that doesn’t negate the fact that their upbringing is specially designed to subjugate the masses. That is why they don’t want you to read alternative newspapers, or go on the internet. The secular education is frowned for the only reason to control the masses.

Finally, in this country, every child has a right to get an education, no rabbis or parents have a right to withhold a secular education, for the sole reason that the child cannot explore alternative lifestyles.

It is the suffocation of the human spirit.

Runner there is no evidence that child abuse is greater in the orthodox or Charedei communities as opposed to the general population.

You come to this web site and pick up the anecdotal information to form an opinion?

Colloquial child abuse, aside from sexual, is probably lesser in the shriveled world of orthodoxy because of the larger family. Children raise children, en masse. They are not left behind, abandoned, starved, relinquished. Emotional, intellectual and psychological rape is not recognized in secular law.

But as to sexual abuse, I too very much want to compare that with rates in other ghettos. There seems to me to be a difference in that it seems almost endorsed with the religious. I don't see that endorsement in other communities with which I am familiar.

Charedi woman get the misery they deserve. They are not victims, but partners in crime. The overwhelming majority of Charedim are involved in theft in order to get by. They exploit the government entitlement programs with every crooked trick possible with the leaders of the communities fully complicit. Yet, they go after the internet which can provide them a honest avenue for making a living. Charedim rip each other off with abandon as well. Theft is what the Bible says finally brought the judgment of the flood, more so than sexual perversion.
The culture is a fraud.

@af: just about anyone has the choice to leave the community

And how are they supposed to manage it with a third grade education (at best)?

If these woman wanted to leave they could just pick up and go. NO ONE would stop them.

That is simply a a lie. The psychological pressure exerted upon people to remain is immense. Furthermore, they risk losing all contact with their children, and as far as the few who manage to leave are concerned, the rest of you say of her, "You see? She never really cared about her children!" Then, of course, there are the obligatory, "Shiksa! Curveh!", etc.

Batei Din CANNOT DECIDE AND ENFORCE custody. they simply cannot do it.

Are you really that naive? Do you honestly believe the things you're saying, or are you trying to convince yourself?

Jake, you write: "Runner there is no evidence that child abuse is greater in the orthodox or Charedei communities as opposed to the general population. You come to this web site and pick up the anecdotal information to form an opinion?"

I did not compare the prevalence of child sexual abuse within the haredi community with that within the general population, because that is the wrong comparison. What I wrote is "The haredi community, on an anecdotal basis, has more instances of child sexual abuse (than) that of the non-haredi Jewish commmunity." The non-haredi Jewish community is a more valid comparison. I used the word "acecdotal," because to my knowledge, there are no studies on this. My statement is based on the overwhelming number of news reports, not only on this web site, but on many others, including the non-Jewish press, that appear on this subject that indicate that this is so.

Even taking into account that the haredi community is easily identifiable,there are too many reports not to question whether this is true. The haredi community themselves need to study this, and if true, determine why, and take action to lower the incidence. Given the importance of protecting children, one wonders why the haredi community has not done this.

Fact: there is no real evidence that Charedim commit theft or abuse more than any other group. The thousands of inferences they do on this blog are simply anti-Charedi smears and bias .

No ESOP. They have a massive government entitlement enrollment, and they defraud those programs with their grey economy of tax evasion. They receive benefits for which their earned incomes are too high, and they avoid that little problem by engaging in tax evasion to report less earned income. That would be theft.

ESOP, you write: "Fact: there is no real evidence that Charedim commit theft or abuse more than any other group. The thousands of inferences they do on this blog are simply anti-Charedi smears and bias ."

There are none so blind as those that REFUSE to see. You refuse to see, or consider the possibility. The safety of children is so important, even if the data is anecdotal, that any rational person would want to determine, through a study of the incidence data, if in fact there is more sexual child abuse in the haredi community than in the non-haredi Jewish community. This is what G_d would want, because there is nothing more important than protecting children.

In fact, the haredi rabbinical leadership should pursue this study themselves, because if they were as pious as they claim, they would want to determine why this is the case. Unless of course, they already know the answer, and think protecting their culture is more important than protecting children.

Shame on you for pulling this "anti-Charedi smears and bias" crap. Let's find out the facts.

No Pard, that's anecdotal. Please provde hard evidence that by some reasonable measure, there is more theft among Charedim than other groups.

Kind of an academic argument about providing proof that the Charedi economy is built on tax evasion. All you need to do is speak with several members of the community and find out how they attempt to make ends meet. Proof that it is higher in incidence than other groups is also not the point. For a group that exists solely to express G-D's will on earth, Charedim should be judged in the light of their own values. The Italian Mafia may engage in more Fraud than Chareidim (not so sure), but they are a self identified crime family. Chareidim are supposed to be the most G-D fearing.

Jeff,

There is "pressure" not to radically change your lifestyle in any way. If you care so much about your freinds and family's approval that you can't make a change they will disapprove off, that's your fault, not theirs.

My father is a Baal Tshuva who made millions despite having only an elementary school education. There are plenty of people who are successful despite being educated in the Chareidi system.

As far as Batei Din deciding custody: like is said the fact is Batei Din CANNOT DECIDE AND ENFORCE custody. they simply cannot do it. This is why despite their lies to the media woman like perry reich and Deborah Feldman have custody of their children. The whole "Batei Din take away children" is a lie that simply cannot happen.

My father is a Baal Tshuva who made millions despite having only an elementary school education. There are plenty of people who are successful despite being educated in the Chareidi system.

You people always do this - present one example of success and ignore the thousands living in poverty, not to mention ignorance and repression.

As far as Batei Din deciding custody: like is said the fact is Batei Din CANNOT DECIDE AND ENFORCE custody. they simply cannot do it. This is why despite their lies to the media woman like perry reich and Deborah Feldman have custody of their children. The whole "Batei Din take away children" is a lie that simply cannot happen.

BULLSHIT. Your entire culture is drowning in an ocean of denial.

No Pard, that's anecdotal. Please provde hard evidence that by some reasonable measure, there is more theft among Charedim than other groups.


Aside from the fact that larceny and sexual abuse are almost certainly more prevalent relatively among Haredim than they are among other groups, there are important differences. Other groups don't:

• claim to speak for God
• claim to be holier than everyone else
• claim that large segments of the population have the souls of animals
• insist that everyone else is obligated to live precisely as they do
• badger everyone else with tiresome threats concerning their fate in the afterlife
• beat up women on buses
• throw burning tires and dirty diapers when they don't get their way
• chase little girls down the street screaming "Curveh!"

In short, other groups lie, cheat, steal and molest children, but they have the decency to leave others alone and they have the good taste not to claim the moral and spiritual high road.

Oh - and when they do the things they do, the aren't doing them on the public dime.

Jeff, exactly right.

Jeff,

Can you bring me ONE example of a Beit Din taking someone's kids away.
As I pointed out earlier perry reich and Deborah Feldman have custody of their children (despite their lies to the contrary).

In the USA when the parents cannot agree on custody it is up to the secular courts to determine custody based on what they determine is in the best interest of the children.

That is the fact ask any lawyer.

I work in a secular environment and I can tell you I see more happily married successful people in shul on a Friday night then I do in a week the wonderful secular world you so adore.

Parents do not 'agree on custody'. You must live in fantasy land, and you have certainly never been through a divorce.

There are numerous levels and types of custody to be worked out, including 'legal', 'medical', 'physical', visitation rights, financial issues involving children, and especially if a child has special needs such as a handicap, it's all even more complex. And, of course, if one parent has embarked upon a significant change in their religious beliefs.

If both sides can keep the acrimony to a minimum, the attorneys on both sides work out these details and present them to the judge of a secular court.

Some farkokte arrangement involving a Beis Din would have to pass muster regarding all of the above issues, and cannot supercede secular law. For example, one side cannot give up all rights and expect the judge to buy that they're doing so without coercion.

Everyone in shul puts on a veneer to keep up appearances, and so you think it's all peaches and cream among your frum neighbors you see in shul Friday night.
At work people will spill their guts to co-workers with whom they're friendly, and generally you see the real person at work.

Comparing the two is just another disingenous technique by frumma apologists to claim that their world is so wonderful and the 'secular' world is 'degenerate'.

And as always, the frumma remain ignorant of history, and fail to see the irony in their claims of others as 'degenerate'.

http://www.ushmm.org/research/collections/highlights/
bryan/video/detail.php?content=germany_art

As I pointed out earlier perry reich and Deborah Feldman have custody of their children (despite their lies to the contrary).

After prolonged battles and horrendous abuse heaped upon them by the communities upon which they'd been brought up to be entirely dependent. That they managed to break away may be nothing short of miraculous.

Can you bring me ONE example of a Beit Din taking someone's kids away.

The pressures to obey and conform are well-known and well-publicized (thanks to Shmarya and perhaps a few others, although not to the same extent). Yes, I know - anti-Haredi, self-hating Jews, we'll all burn in gehinnom, yadda yadda...

As for specific examples, I'll allow others more directly conversant with your world to respond.

I work in a secular environment and I can tell you I see more happily married successful people in shul on a Friday night then I do in a week the wonderful secular world you so adore.

I'm sure you think you do.

Fred, have you tried to explain to your 'secular' coworkers about the lovely tradition of sucking a child's penis at the bris?

I am sure they would understand what a beautiful tradition it is, and how it must be the law of the Jewish God to do so.

And it's not degenerate, oh no, not at all.

I'm sure if the following poster were to appear in a frum publication in Williamsburg, readers would be clueless of its true origin, and think it's another example of what secular Jews are all about:

http://suite101.com/article/degenerate-music-the-nazi-propaganda-exhibition-a315507

WoolSilkCotton,

Whatever, like you said and I quote
"Some farkokte arrangement involving a Beis Din would have to pass muster regarding all of the above issues, and cannot supercede secular law. For example, one side cannot give up all rights and expect the judge to buy that they're doing so without coercion."
That was my point. This BS that "Batei Din take away custody of children from the side that leaves" is not possible in the USA.
It cannot happen, and anyone that claims it does is either lying or misinformed.

Jeff

Changing your lifestyle to one that your family and friends disapprove of is hard. Marrying someone that your family and friends disapprove of is hard. No one disputes that. That doesn't make it impossible, people do it all the time. It may suck and may be hard but as an adult you choose to continue living a certain way or don't. If you cannot change because you are so attached to your friends and are too afraid of your family's disapproval to live a lifestyle they are opposed too (or marry someone they are opposed to) that is nobody's fault but your own.
Again I am sure it is hard to be brought up in a way that doesn't work for you and to change. Just quit being mad at people for not approving of your choices. This "Forcing" they talk about is disapproval that is all.

These woman made a decision to listen to their parents and community and marry the people they married. If they would have told their families F*** You I am marrying a secular guy they could have done it. They wouldn't have had their families approval but their family is not obligated to approve of their children's decisions.

If you want to believe that all Frum people are miserable I will not be able to convince you otherwise. Just keep in mind that you are acting no different then the religious fanatics who say that every culture besides theirs is horrible.

WSC, thanks for the link;
interesting to note that Goebbels who eventually right before the collapse of the Third Reich with his own hand killed his six young children, was the man who the made “the determination of what was “degenerate” fell primarily under the sphere of influence of Dr. Josef Goebbels,”

Wool Silk Cotton

Again like I said in my earlier comment if you want to believe that all frum people are miserable and that frum culture is a horrible one that's your prerogative. Just try to understand that there are people that think the same of your western American culture and they aren't any more wrong then you are.

It's funny how so many people that preach open mindedness so strongly are so closed to cultures that are different then the cultures they like.

Posted by: fred | February 21, 2013 at 09:52 AM

I feel obligated to speak up for Jeff. To begin with you don’t know if Jeff is still in the Haredi community or he left a long time ago, as I did. Secondly, it is easy to sit back and judge others when you are not walking in their shows. (Being in the community and not yearning to leave, is not walking in his shows) Thirdly, Jeff never claimed that it is imposable to leave the community; as a matter of fact we have numerous people on this site that left and yes succeeded despite all the obstacles put in front of them by the community. The point Jeff is making that all the impediments that the community purposely erects, is vicious and self-serving. Every Rabbi will readily admit that they purposely want to segregate the young ones so when they come to age they don’t want to leave the community. That is corruption and mental abuse of a minor that is what Jeff is railing about.

++fred | February 21, 2013 at 10:19 AM++

Fred, as usual, frumkeit prevents you from thinking in anything but absolutes. Everyone to you is either frum or secular, and secular is evil and is your enemy.

And yes, all the frumma I still know are always resentful of the freedoms of anyone who isn't frum, and it's always a topic of conversation for them. And they remain fascinated with things like having a cocktail in a bar with normal people, or listening to rock and roll music.
There is the constant need to drum it into themselves how superior they are to the non-frum world. Such sad little people, those frumma are.

Not all frum culture is bad, just the incessant lying, stealing, cheating, racism, and child molesting, all of which is sanctioned and protected by the rabbinical leadership.

I'll agree with one thing that you seem to have said- any woman in the frumma velt could theoretically leave the ghetto.

She is an open target to being utterly screwed if she tried to leave. The frum system keeps her illiterate and under the man's thumb. Yeah, let her try to leave, and good luck taking the kids with her.
Keep them stupid, married early and turned into a baby factory, so there is no time for silly ideas like visiting the library.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OezHRns06-8

WoolSilkCotton

The frum system keeps woman illiterate?
Do you actually know anything about the frum community?
The girls actually have much more intense schooling, more homework and probably actually get an all around better education then most boys get in yeshiva. I would venture to say that there are probably more woman with degrees and professional training in the very frum and yeshivah communities then there are men.
Many woman are actually encouraged to work and be the primary breadwinner if their husband wants to learn; and most frum households that I know of are two income households.

Most frum people I know also have Jobs families and are really normal people who just have a different belief system then the average American. Its funny how you can't seem to imagine that someone can have another culture and mindset then the modern American one, and still be a good person.

Maybe you hang around with frumma who are unhappy with life and are unsuccessful or something...... my crowd ain't anything like what your talking about and I live in Lakewood

"It's amusing to see someone call a culture that has endured for thousands of years through countless different situations as being 'pathetic'.""

What culture specifically? Chareidi? Hasidic? Orthodox Jewish? Not one of these cultures meet those criteria inasmuch as these are all new cultures relative to total breadth of the history of Judaism.

Your triumphalism level is set to "11" -- you might want to turn that knob down to a more realistic setting.

i dont agree that its because facebook i think its because the frum people know nothing and when they get to see and read the world it explodes i was tought that every goy is bad when i opened the computer i say there are good ones as well and they are enjoying life more then we are so y should i not join them
the yiddish way of life is all about doing yourself and not seeing the world which wont work
jewishfun2@gmail.com
i wish i was able to leave all the way

The point Jeff is making that all the impediments that the community purposely erects, is vicious and self-serving. Every Rabbi will readily admit that they purposely want to segregate the young ones so when they come to age they don’t want to leave the community. That is corruption and mental abuse of a minor that is what Jeff is railing about.

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

(For the record, I'm not Haredi - just opinionated!)

LEt me tel you how it works -- the one with the moneya nd power pay the baet din"s bills, so the rabbs are more lenient in their favor. Just the fact. If its the woman paying and the guy s ashlepper, it may go the other way. Thats just to start.

secondly, since the woman is usually the one without funds by the time she reaches beit din, she certainly doesnt have the money for legal fees, to now fgo to secular court (war tactic learned from Napolean, make your enemy use up all their resources before the actual battle).

Deborah Feldman and Perry Reich both had relatives on the outside and wouldnt be surprised if they helped direct them. And dont forget Perry Reich was raising money for her legal fund.

Finally, when a community decides to go against a woman -- in the name of the rabbis, they collect affidavits from everyone, the butcher, the grocer, the children's clothing store, the guy who sold the couple a phone plan -- all in the name of the rebbe -- to save the children. Whether it's submitted as evidence or just mailed to the judge, it's done methodically and scripted by a legal team.And that certainly influences the secular court judge who isnt going to step into the community and find out what is really going on. Everyone says the woman is nuts, so she must be nuts.

The community pressure is so great, that she may even be forced to check into a mental hospital for a few days-- presto! proof that she is mental.

The reason Deborah Feldman and Perry Reich didnt lose custody was because they had enough pressure on their side to balance things out. Feldman was sneaky and didnt even let her husband know she was moving for a divorce for several months. Reich had loads of modern orthodox and nonreligious people backing her due to her social media campaign.It took a lot to get the judge to recuse himself. And he wasnt a happy camper about it, despite that he knew he was being pressured by outside forces to rule in favor of the Reich husband.

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