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February 28, 2013

Chabad Rabbi Tries To Punish Small Children For Their Father's Sin

Rabbi Zvi TelsnerThe leading Chabad rabbi in Melbourne, Australia, Zvi Hirsch Telsner (right), tried to get Chabad's Sydney, Australia schools to ban the children of a hasid who refused to heed a beit din ruling.

Please click to enlarge:

Melbourne Beit Din Telsner Shun Children 2-28-2013 watermarked

Coincidentally, the Sydney Beit Din just excommunicated the toen, beit din advocate, for Melbourne's Yeshivah Centre:
Ktav Nidui Sydney 2-2013 watermarked

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And Manny tells us to expect big news in Saturdays newspaper. Another good week in Australia. I am getting really sick of all this bull shit.

Why am I not surprized?

The power of Haredi and other ultra-Orthodox rabbis is in their ability to change the status of children in the community. This is the biggest fear of all the parents.

No different than the people of Sdom.
They specialised in distorting the truth.
Hence their inability to be straight forward.
אנשי סדום היו מצדיקים את מעשי הרשע שלהם בכל מיני תירוצים ודרכים, ולכן לא יכלו לשוב בתשובה

Too bad the members of the haredi community can't just tell those haredi rabbis who do these harmful and stupid things just to **c* **f. Some of these people are so evil in their actions that they practice Haredism, which is not Judaism. They have adopted Judaism as the framework for their cult with respect to the minutiae of daily life, but some Haredim have missed completely the moral and ethical principles of Judaism. They are only masquerading as Jews.

Rabbi Kluwgant and the other rabbis commenting about the psak of Rabbi Telsner shoul d be ashamed of themselves.

They are all playing PC-ness for the secular and anti-religious AJN and the non-frum members of the community, whilst privately they tell those close to them that Telsner is 100% right.

They also know that Rabbi Telsner has far more yiras shamayim and Torah knowledge than all of them combined

Kluwgant is a shchet and religious social worker

and as for Rogut....is he orthodox.?

I'll apologose of I am mistaken, but didn't his shul have a microphone?

You cant have it both ways!

If a B'D is going to have any power, they have to have the power to enforce judgements. So on the one hand, you claim Rabbi's are doing nothing vs Rabbi's trying to do something and enforce law.

Rabbi Telsner is completely right in this regard.

how does it say?
והחכם עיניו בראשו
one has to realise the circumstances:
they have a business to protect.
why bother with little details of truth?

Its a case of do as I say not do as I do!

THEY SHOULD PUT RABBI ZVI HIRSCH'S CHILDREN IN HOSPITAL BECAUSE THE FATHER IS MISHUGNEH...

Attorney, you write: "If a B'D is going to have any power, they have to have the power to enforce judgments. So on the one hand, you claim Rabbi's are doing nothing vs Rabbi's trying to do something and enforce law."

What is the mechanism for an individual to agree (ahead of time) to submit to the judgments of a B'D? Is there a legal document the individual needs to sign?

Quite frankly, I am not sure why anyone would sign such a legal document, trusting a group of rabbis who didn't go to law school, who do not know the rules of evidence, who apply laws that cannot be overturned if found to be unjust or not in accordance with the culture of today and who are accountable to no one. But then again, I am not haredi.

You guys CANNOT have it both ways.

If Rabbi Telsner took no action and just sat on his butt, Shmaraya would have written an article that Rabbi Telsner ignores his own rulings and does nothing to stop the chaos.

If he did nothing you would have accused of pandering to the rich and famous.

The bottom line is that there Is no common sense here only hatred and boredom.

Did Benny Amzalek sign a document- pre-DT - to obey the psak of the BD?

If so, the rabbonim must do whatever it takes to enforce their ruling.

Rabbi Telsner is actually a brave man to issue his ruling (knowing that this site and all the other tinofeson the webb - usually anonymous - will criticise him relentlessly) and Amzalek has a din of a mesarev.

To Runner:

It is common and normal practice for all litigants in B'D to sign a contract with B'D. The contract is NOT written by the Rabbonim, its written by lawyers and is used globally by B'D's to ensure their ruling has validity (its an arbitration agreement). No B'D that Im aware of will hear a case without somone signing the document.

Hence, R' Telsner is right. They signed a doc and he issued a ruling. If a litigant wont obey the ruling, its useless. He is correct in his order - both legally and halachically.

As far as I understand the case was initially rejected by the Sydney BD due to its ridiculous claims and nature. All those who know the individual pursuing this case is aware of his nature.

Telsner is a rav in Melbounre. Different city. The claimant was forced to go to a BD in Melbourne because the Sydney one rejected it.

It was not done with Amzalak's knowledge. That is part of the civil case. Telsner issued this without adequately contacting or investigation the individuals involved.

Attorney, you couldn't be more wrong.

If there was a valid arbitration agreement then that gives the other (winning) party to the dispute the right to enforce the BD's ruling in the civil courts. It would be highly unusual for a judge from a BD would be a party to such an agreement. In no circumstances would an arbitration agreement give Telsner the right to enforce his BD's ruling.

Arguably, seeking to get someone's kids kicked out of a school to get them to do something (pay money?) is tantamount to attempted blackmail.

Attorney - not every agreement is enforceable for public policy reasons. If someone agrees to be punched 10 times in the face, then he can withdraw his consent after one punch if he changes his mind because the agreement he made to accept the remaining punches is void for public policy reasons.

Arbitration agreements whether under Halacha or Sharia should not be enforceable for public policy grounds because of undue influence. A religious Jew who agrees to go to beis din under religious pressure should be free to change his mind when he comes to his senses. Secondly civil courts as a matter of public policy should refuse to support any body which discriminates against women as halacha does.

Batei Din should have no power whatsover. Civil authorities should refuse to play along with their pretense that they can act judicially. This is not Jewland and the civil authorities should not recognize let alone empower any body acting as Judenrat.

Individual dayanim should be open to being prosecuted and sued for blackmail and extortion in cases where they attempt to enforce their 'rulings' notwithstanding any agreement by the individual to be bound by their rulings. Batei Din can give their opinion but must never be allowed to enforce it.

Rabbi's trying to do something and enforce law.

Rabbi Telsner is completely right in this regard.

Posted by: Attorney | February 28, 2013 at 11:23 AM

So the sins of the father are visited on the children and you think that's correct? So that if a judgment is issued against you in civil court in the US and you fail to pay it and flee it would be correct for the court to seize your children's possessions and sell their furniture and the essentials of their lives and toss them in the street, isn't that right?

These Haredi rabbis are bullies and basically no better than Mafia enforcers in my view with the women and children forever the pawns and the victims and the ones abused . You apparently think this is fine and the way it should be so what does it say about you and those sharing your views? Nothing good, certainly. It makes me ashamed to be known as a Jew.

Sickening.

Many of the recent comments are missing the point. In Judaism, we have a system of government. We also have a system of enforcing laws. Similar concepts exist in the secular world (simple example: failure to pay child support can result in indefinite confinment in jail).

Thus, once an agreement is signed with BD, that they can be arbitrators, BD then also has halachic power over the situation. Otherwise, everyone would take multiple bites at the apple.

Halachically, a person who refuses to submit to a ruling, should be put in chairum. That includes: not allowing the person to buy food (from kosher stores) other than bread and water; not allowing him in a minyan; not calling him to the torah; AND not allowing the persons children in school. (Youll remember the nutjob neturi kartah who sued in Europe to get his kids back in school-they were kicked out because of Chairum).

A BD has to be able to enforce their rulings within our community, otherwise theyre toothless.

Re ability to change your mind, etc. This is ridiculous. If you believe in Judaism, then we have a judicial system. Period.

To S M L:

You are arguing emotion, not law. The law allows you to seize someone elses property in the event of a judgement. The fact that the guys kids might go hungry or homeless is irrelevant. Halacha follows the same thing, except by us, you have to return his pillow at night and allow ONE set of clothing.

Both Halachically and Civilly, you can order the persons wife to remove every piece of jewlery and turn it over.

Attorney, you write: "Many of the recent comments are missing the point. In Judaism, we have a system of government. We also have a system of enforcing laws."

Of course, this only applies to those that recognize that Beit Dins have any jurisdiction over them at all.

And Manny tells us to expect big news in Saturdays newspaper.

Posted by: Steven | February 28, 2013 at 06:13 AM

Saturdays Age and Sydney morning Herald will report on their interviewing of Rabbi "M" in Sydney this week.....

At least he was honest when he confirmed that he had an appointment to meet NSW police next week....
As for the rest...Well...The truth will come out in good time....

Runner, etc:

You are right....If someone accepts BD, then they have to abide by its ruling.

An alternative is to not accept BD. Anyone can do that by, either refusing to show up, or not signing the contract. BD will then allow the other litigant to take you to secular court.

Most dont want to do that because it is more costly, time consuming and ultimatly have a totally different set of rules.

Bottom line is that Amzalak accepted BD. Telsner did nothing Halachically wrong.

Thank you, Attorney, for your explanation.

As a non-orthodox Jew, my cultural value system is so diametrically different than the haredi cultural value system, I would never submit to the jurisdiction of a Beit Din whose rabbis have no legal training, are accountable to no one, and operate their group as an all boys club. However, i realize that due of cultural norms, there are some people who do.

Runner1983, don't thank him for his explanation - it is wrong. A beth din never has powers of enforcement. Rather, when the parties to a dispute sign an arbitration agreement, the BD's ruling takes effect as an arbitration award. This can be enforced by the secular courts. There is only one law in western liberal democracies. Only the secular courts have powers of enforcement. Telsner must have known this.

Not to belabor the point, but these rabbis do have legal training. They have Jewish legal training - which is quite complex and has a sophisticated set of rules. Many of those rules are similar to civil law (which derives its perspective from Jewish law). So its a misnomer to say that they dont have training. In fact, based on experiance, these rabbis are more familiar with their law, then judges in civil court.

On many issues within the religious community, I would agree with you...just not on this. A court is a court and a system of law is important. If a litigant submitted to BD rule, then BD should have the legal power to enforce those rules.

"On many issues within the religious community, I would agree with you...just not on this. A court is a court and a system of law is important. If a litigant submitted to BD rule, then BD should have the legal power to enforce those rules."

They don't.

Attorney, Avi, I will let you guys argue it out.

Doesn't telsner have a cheek? Isn't he blatantly disregarding a beis din ruling himself regarding R Engel?

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