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January 29, 2013

Video: Dangerous, Idiotic And Insulting – Rabbi Manis Friedman 'Explains' Child Sexual Abuse

Rabbi manis friedmanAnother hasidic untrained and unlicensed therapist/counselor, Chabad's Rabbi Manis Friedman, claims child sexual abuse does not damage its victims, and that not saying the rabbinic prayer to be said after eating a piece of cake is worse than something – abuse – that happened to you as a child. Victims suffer, he claims, only from the feeling that they are damaged goods. They should realize that we are all damaged goods, abused or not, he claims, and then equates the damage of child sexual abuse with the damage other people experience as children from uncaring teachers or teachers who belittled them. Friedman completely misunderstands (or is unsympathetic to) the deep psychological pain child sexual abuse causes – to the extent that even pre-verbal infants who are sexually abused can have psychological issues throughout their lives from that sexual abuse.

Rabbi manis friedman
Rabbi Manis Friedman

Originally published at 6:41 pm CST 1-28-2013

I've known Manis for more than 30 years. He's a very creative, inventive guy who likes to find new and surprising – and even shocking – spin on well-established Jewish concepts and political issues.

Unfortunately, Manis is not above taking true stories and changing some of their facts in order to illustrate his points – even when the stories as he tells them are false and highly misleading, and I think that he may be doing a version of that in this case.

Why?

Child sexual abuse and its prevention has become – no thanks to haredi and hasidic rabbis and community leaders themselves – a significant issue in haredi and hasidic communities.

In the process of this, a few pedophiles from those communities have been reported to police and prosecuted.

One of those pedophiles is Rabbi Yaakov Weiss who is the son-in-law of Friedman's close friend Sholom Rubashkin and the brother of another friend of Friedman and some of Friedman's children, Rabbi Moshe Weiss. And Moshe Weiss is married to a daughter of Chabad of Minnesota's chief financial backer.

When Friedman wants to tell a story to illustrate one of his unique attempts at spin but can't find one in the accepted canon of hasidic or haredi stories or in the news reports and human interest stories in the local paper, he simply takes an obscure story and changes the facts to make it fit his needs.

I personally caught him doing this years ago and confronted him on it. I asked him why he changed some facts and omitted others in a way that changed the story's meaning. Why not tell the story as it actually happened, I asked? Because it wouldn't be a good story that way, Friedman replied. I pointed out that the true story actually was an argument against his position, not a support for it. Manis acknowledged that was true. And from that point onward, by my choice I had little to do with him.

I think Manis is doing the same thing here. He's downplaying the significance of child sexual abuse and its impact on its victims in order to justify covering up cases of child sexual abuse and 'handling' them internally within Chabad or other haredi communities. He's also doing it to justify pressure on victims to drop charges or, as in Weiss's case, suddenly accept an out of court settlement tens of thousands of dollars less than what they deserve (and tens of thousands of dollars less than what was allegedly previously offered).

In other words, if Friedman – who is a superstar within Chabad – says child sexual abuse and similar crimes are basically nothing and the damage they cause to victims is really mild and of their own making (or of their own misunderstanding of the true import of that sexual abuse on them in the wider scheme of things), then people who are working to curtail pedophilia and expose active child sexual abusers are essentially doing the wrong thing – if their goal is to have these pedophiles prosecuted in criminal court or sued in civil court.

And therefore it follows that these activists and victims must be stopped or dissuaded from doing what they are doing. And who better to front an effort like that then victims themselves, victims who hear Friedman's talk and adopt his views. Never mind the fact that months or a few years later, they'll realize Friedman is wrong. By then, the damage will be done.

And that is, I believe, the real point behind his bizarre claims.

A few years ago, after I had already been covering child sexual abuse for awhile, I ran into Manis in a kosher grocery store-deli in St. Louis Park, Minnesota. He was cold – hostile, even – and argued that I should close my blog down or erase all the material on it and use the new blog to promote Yiddishkeit, hasidic or haredi Judaism. And then he walked away

I few minutes later I approached him raised the issue of child sexual abuse. He dismissed it out of hand, not arguing that it didn't exist but treating it as if it almost didn't and wasn't really significant. And then he tried to walk away again.

And I said to him, "Did you hear about [ … ]? [x-number] of kids were abused. What about that?"

He pursed his lips and shook his head no, not to say that he had not heard about it but to deny it's reality altogether. And he kept on walking away.

But I wouldn't let him go. "Manis!," I said, "These are Chabad kids! These are [x friend's] kids and [y friend's] nephew."

For a second or two Manis stopped, taken aback. For those two seconds, the pedophilia had become real to him. But those two seconds quickly passed and Manis went back to being angry – at me. He pursed his lips again and shook his head no, not to deny who the victims were in that particular incident but to reproach me.

"it's not the way to do it," he said, referring to outing the pedophiles, reporting them to police, and publicizing the names of the rabbis who enable the abusers. "It's not right."  I think he said it was "lashon hara, rechillus and mesirah." And then he walked away.

I don't think Manis came up with this concept on his own.

In his position as head of the Bais Chana Women's Institute, he's had to deal with teen and young adult child sexual abuse and rape victims for more than 40 years. And being a devoted representative of the Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, he must have done what he did with so many other issues – ask the Rebbe how it should be handled.

And I think what I heard that day a few years ago and what you can hear on the video below is essentially the Rebbe's view with Manis's spin overlaid on it to make it more acceptable.

Child sexual abuse in the Jewish community, except perhaps in the most extreme cases, is not a matter for police. It's something you work out privately, inside the community behind closed doors, and seep under the nearest rug so prying eyes from the outside do not see.

To the extent that victims need some therapy to heal, they should get that – preferably with a reasonable amount of money given to the family of the victim by the pedophile as a settlement.

And what if the victim doesn't heal from that $5,000 or $30,000 worth of therapy?

Then there was something wrong with the child to begin with, a self-esteem issue that would have needed to be treated anyway and therefore is not the pedophile's responsibility.

The abuse is not the fault of the victim but the victim-hood of the victim may be his own fault.

I know of one case of child sexual abuse the Rebbe ordered to be handled in this fashion and it matches up closely with what Manis says below.

The Rebbe, who is dead, can't repent, can't do teshuva for what he did wrong more than 20 years ago. But Manis Friedman can, and he can also do teshuva for what he's doing wrong today – this horrible video.

But I know Manis very well, and don't think that he will ever do that.

Update 2:22 am CST 1-29-2013 – Manny Waks, the lead abuse victim in the growing Chabad child sexual abuse scandal in Melbourne, Australia  sent the video to several Australian Chabad rabbis and received the following response. While it does not directly reprimand Manis friedman, it does reject and condemn the points Friedman made in the video:

Dear Manny

I write on behalf also of Rabbis Ulman and Kluwgant

While it is unfair and we will not pass judgement on Rabbi Friedman without giving him the opportunity to defend himself , the utube clip stand alone requires strong comment from us.

The clip appears to theologically trivialise and minimise the physical psychological and spiritual damage caused to the victims of sexual abuse. It is simply ignorance to say we are all "damaged" in the same manner as victims of sexual abuse and it is the height of insensitivity to suggest the treatment for a victim is just to perform additional mitzvois.

Our experience as Rabbis and our understanding of the issues as conveyed by professionals in the area and indeed by victims , is that child sexual abuse is one of the most heinous crimes that can be perpetrated and it is aggravated by the lasting injurious affect it has on the victims.

When we fail to acknowledge the gravity of the crime and its devastating affect , we unwittingly assist the perpetrators as people justify their not coming forward because "its not so bad" . We fail in our duty to victims and potential victims and hamper their recovery by failing them twice. The first time by not eliminating the scourge, the second time by not acknowledging their pain.

Manny , be assured, you have the full support of the Rabbinate in uncovering and uprooting the scourge of child sexual abuse - as difficult a challenge it is for our community to face up to - and that we stand with all the victims in their search for both healing and justice.

All the best

Rabbi Moshe D. Gutnick
Dayan-Sydney Beth Din
President - Organisation of Rabbis of Australasia

--------------------------------------

Update 1-29-2013 9:30 pm CST – Rabbi Friedman's attempt to clarify his remarks was just posted.

---------------------------------------

In 2009, Manis Friedman essentially called for genocide against Palestinians and other Arabs when responding in writing to a written question from Moment Magazine.

Friedman's response was published by Moment alongside the responses of many other rabbis – none of whom used the question to call for genocide.

Here are some of the posts related to that controversy: 1, 2, 3, 4.

 

Comments

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The video made me wanna throw up. The lack of compassion for people who went through molestation is unbelievable.

Bluntly what an idiot.

He's a megalomaniac.

I would have agreed with him, provided he can change the facts of victims committing suicide, and bring them back to life. Short of that, it's all hogwash, excuse my french. Those that were able to pull through till marriage, that's when they realize the big problems that arise. They have been robbed of the aphrodisiac of life which makes the world go around, let alone the daily struggle of inner peace and Simchat HaChayim. See the transactions of Rochel and Leah that took place. And that is the second stage of suicide, Hashem Yerachem.

I have no connection to Chabad, and this guy is a nobody to me. Some of what he says makes sense though. This trend in the world about the "abused". I was abused quite a few times by the same person in my childhood, 35 years ago I was a 12 year old boy in my School, and a "big boy" 16 year old "touched me" to put it mildly and did some worse things.I can tell you it did not damage me in the least. It did not even effect me in any way at all. I only realised it was an "event" in the last few years when it has become such an issue. From my experience only, the effects are grossly exaggerated. So he is teaching people how to council the people who do feel "abused" he is telling them they are no worse than anyone else they are not "used goods"

Heaven help us. One of THE lights of Chabad. He's wicked, and it will be embarrassing to be called a Lubavitcher if the head honchos don't disown him.

Once the judeonazi degenerate ”Rabbi” Penis Frieddog encouraged mass-killing of children ("gentile" children to be more specific). Now he is only encouraging cover-up of child sexual abuse. Big progress.

But trivializing the effects on someone who HAS been affected is dangerous.

The trolls are coming out of their holes.

I'd like to see more of these guys sued for preventing people from getting the help they need. I don't think they'll learn anything, but at least they'll be forced to shut the hell up.

Mike-You are not truthfull to youreself or us here,we are talking about being abused by a trusted rebbi or highherup person not a 16 year old,when youre 10 11 or younger and you lookup to yourre teachers trust them tottaly and then they start fondling you do you see the difference from a 16 year old who is just one of the boys there is a big very big difference,do you really think all theese boys they are in the hundreds if not thousands who are conming forward with traumatized from those experiences are not damaged,there are those that maybee very few didnt effect them like you but i dont think that those who were molested by a rabbi arent deeply effected ,in my mind it is beyond a shaddow of a doubt thaqt they are very very much effected i am i know i was also molested by a very very trusted person.

Bunch of psychopaths!All of them!

Mike,

What causes trauma to some people does not cause trauma in others. I'm sure being molested causes trauma in more people than not.

!. Is Manis part of the neo christian messianics ? Yes or no ? 2. Did he ever go to any college like the rebbee [obm] did ?

@ jancsi bacsi apparently some people are effected badly. I cannot see what is wrong with telling them what this guy is suggesting. It might work with some. Regarding your differentiation. I have a very good friend who is 5 years younger than me. He was abused by his teacher who I also know. It had absolutely no effect on him. He shrugs it off completely. Many teachers coaches etc. are consciously or subconsciously drawn to their profession by their urges.. and unfortunately it is a common story.(This teacher is still employed by the same School. I keep telling him to do something about it. But he does not want to get involved and is sure the guy has come to his senses and would not do it nowadays. Obviously I disagree)

What the actual fuck is wrong with this man?

jancsibacsi,

Consider for just a moment that Mike may be like many people who do not "get" the whole concept of "a very, very trusted person." I've revered many people in my life, but I swear to you on no uncertain terms that were they to deviate unequivocally from the values with which I was educated for even a slight second I would have been ready to discard any and all reverence towards that person. And that doesn't mean that I'm any less capable of idolizing someone, the whole shpil, like idol worship (almost), but maybe that I'm less prone to suggestion or group-concsciousness, or that I just don't have whatever it is that "groomable" children have, but it's hard to grasp the concept of this specific type of trauma, for it wouldn't be a rabbi at that point but a wicked person impersonating a rabbi. It's like trying to explain sorrow of depression to someone who has never experienced it (or explaining the awesomeness of pizza to someone who has never heard of it).

Mike -I wonder if that is true he most probably way not effected because he wasnt molested like those who are effected deeply by that i mean he was not touched psysically how else can he let this go knowing that other kids would also be molested i just dont see youre friend being molested and not traumatized, you still dismiss youre own i wrote to you if it would be a rebbi with influence and power would you think you would feel the same way as by a 16 year old with no position of authority?

An evil monster

!. Is Manis part of the neo christian messianics ? Yes or no ? 2. Did he ever go to any college like the rebbee [obm] did ?

Posted by: chaim36 | January 28, 2013 at 07:50 PM

Manis is one of the very few Lubavitchers who think that their rebbe is not the messiah. He didn't go to college, it's all field experience, his oration skills were developed over decades of experience.

He does seem to have a kind of charisma; a hypnotic charm that has his followers hanging on every word. You can see how they laugh at certain statements, which even if they were pure truth chosen by God himself to convey in the English language are just not appropriate moments to laugh. He has complete control over them (whoever they, in the audience, are).

Why, Manis, why? I thought you knew better.
The chillul Hashem is really getting to me.

What a Tzaddick Chamor! After disqualifying himself as a rabbi with a blatant disregard for those who have suffered through no fault of their own, he starts masturbating with his beard.

I saw the video to him its like a joke,this guy is the ultimate inhuman piece of garbage he is joking about it,he is beyond moron called rebbi beyond the pale sick unimaginably sick with his cloaking it all in his perverted toireh mitzves unbeleivable that a grownup should be this callous and indifferent.

And Shmarya, they attack.

always felt he was a huge blowhard. A bit of a blowhard is ok but i detest that utter seriousness and weirdness combo alot of these so called newly frumma bat bs types look and holier than thou personality I find creepy.

Life's too short to waste reading him.

This person is a piece of SHIT. period. His talmidim here are little pieces of SHIT. period.

The reason people Don't Blush Anymore is because their Orthodox Rabbi molested them, and they've already seen it all. This tower of stupidity the BEST of Chabad educators. The Lubavitcher Emperor really has no clothes.

Posted by: Mike | January 28, 2013 at 07:14 PM

As myself count your blessing there are very few victims which didn’t have any lingering effects, I know myself that I was abused and I know it didn’t affect me at all.

He is lucky he doesn't have to live with the daily memories of being molested every night and morning as a child.

I think it's fair game to say that the Mike who posted the first comment- myself- is not the same one as below. Really wish we had those picture boxes back, they were good ID's of sorts. But I guess those are long gone. Oh well.

To the other Mike- in regards to your comment(s), many others have pointed out that not everyone shares the same emotional reaction to something this traumatic. What sickens me about the video is the way the rabbi belittled abuse to such a low degree. He compared coming out about being molested to telling everyone they took a crap. They (as in Haredi/Hasidic rabbis) don't understand what it feels like to be abuse and the lack of control that it comes with, and even moreso considering that they are the ones who have total control over their respective followers.

It would be much easier for people to cope with abuse if they had the support of their community and the love and respect of their teachers/community leaders/clergy members, but so often in the Haredi world they get the exact opposite.

The joking around and complete lack of empathy in regards to the horrific suffering of others is utter cruelty. What an evil little man.

The context of the audience is important here. I don't know who it is. Manis Friedman does not for one second mention that the pervert shouldn't be reported or that the attacker should be dealt with internally. That is a blatant lie from this post. What Manis Firedman is saying, is that perhaps part of therapy for an abused victim should be convincing them that they are not damaged goods. His point of the after blessing is to try and put in perspective to an abused victim that they should try to define their lives by now and not the past. He is not downplaying it or saying that its not serious. he's a thinker and is suggesting that perhaps the suicides happen because the victims feel like damaged goods, our job is to convince them they aren't.

My only wish is that this guy is bent over and ass-raped so hard that he can't sit for a week. Let him then do two mitzvahs and regain his balance and everything will be ok, the fucking idiot.

What a shame. As you said, he's very creative and a good teacher. I heard him a few years ago and he was excellent. Too bad he's taken this route.

To Moshe:

"perhaps the suicides happen because the victims feel like damaged goods, our job is to convince them they aren't."

And maybe the suicides happen because community leaders convince the victims that the abuse was their fault or that they've exaggerated the abuse - in order to protect the abuser and the community's image.

There may be a tiny - and I emphasize "tiny" - bit of rationality in what Rabbi Friedman said, but I didn't see very much compassion or concern for the victims. Telling the victims - "Don't worry, nothing bad happened... look at the person who didn't make a bracha" is a little lame.

@not surprised. thanks for the objectivity.

"And maybe the suicides happen because community leaders convince the victims that the abuse was their fault or that they've exaggerated the abuse - in order to protect the abuser and the community's image."

That is a huge issue and one that is hopefully getting better. That however is not what Manis Friedman is addressing at all.
thanks for the clarity though i will amend my statement
"perhaps some suicides happen in part because the victims feel like damaged goods, our job is to convince them they aren't"
I dont know the context of the video. who he's talking too.....
Telling someone thats been hurt that they aren't damaged goods is the ultimate compassion. He is advocating that people shouldn't define themselves or be told to define themselves by having been molested. That's what I got out of the video. He didnt say nothing bad happened. In case you didnt realize he wasn't even addressing a situation surrounding the actual incident. It seems to me he is talking about 20 years later, dealing with molestation from a long time ago, and he is advocating trying to help a person not to define themselves by it. When you get a 20 minute clip with no context its easy to see there was laughter... and assume he couldn't care less, but Manis Friedman doesn't spend his time with this because he lacks compassion

Posted by: moshe | January 28, 2013 at 11:46 PM

You're a liar, Moshe both to others and to yourself.

Manis very clearly downplays abuse. He says the trauma comes from one thing – feeling like damaged goods. He says victims should 'get over it.' He makes jokes about them.

He knew the video would be public before he spoke, and the context would be clear if you bothered to look – but you don't, because like always are a weird amalgam of ignorance and untruth.

Only a sick person would would defend what Friedman said.

As for what I wrote in my post, it is accurate. That you aren't smart enough or careful enough or concerned enough to actually attempt to understand it before you attack it is another example of your dishonesty and your ignorance.

You are an unmitigated ass.

The video has been taken down, but I saved the audio.

why was the video taken down? Did anyone save it and can repost it?

I just finished listening to this. What an evil, heartless man. And what a good friend he is to baby-rapers everywhere. If this is one of Lubavitch's "Leading Lights" and what passes for a counselor among in Judaism the antisemites are right. The Catholics have nothing on him.

why was the video taken down? Did anyone save it and can repost it?

Posted by: Matty | January 29, 2013 at 12:45 AM

It's re-posted and embedded above in my post.

I read Rabbi Manis Friedman book, Doesn't Anyone Blush Anymore?: Reclaiming Intimacy, Modesty, and Sexuality Rabbi Friedman seemed to be very concerned and harsh about child abuse.

http://www.amazon.com/Doesnt-Anyone-Blush-Anymore-Reclaiming/dp/0060630299

@Shmarya
I read your post. Got too nauseous reading an article where someone is writing about sexual abuse and uses half the article to complain about how he was ignored. talk about trivializing sexual abuse.
Other people here that care about sexual abuse are actually analyzing what he said and trying to see if it makes sense.
We all understand the whole sexual abuse issue for you is one big tool so you can make stupid deductions and loop it back to silliness like this:
"The Rebbe, who is dead, can't repent, can't do teshuva for what he did wrong more than 20 years ago.".
For most people when discussing sexual abuse thats not their primary concern, we all understand it's yours but I'm discussing the video and what manis said, apparently something your not that interested in

Posted by: moshe | January 29, 2013 at 01:43 AM

Please.

You're a disgusting liar, little man. And unfortunately for you, you're not that bright, and while you may think no one notices your lies, in truth, lots of people do.

The story I told is not about how I was "ignored."

The story explicitly is about how Manis Friedman trivialized child sexual abuse before this video was made, and I explain quite clearly the reason he may have done this then and the added reasons for doing it now.

As for the Rebbe, what I quite clearly wrote is that Manis is probably representing what the Rebbe privately told his representatives about child sexual abuse and how to handle incidents of it.

You're a disgusting, sick human being. You lie to protect your cult and your rabbis rather than admit the truth is problematic and, in this case, your rabbis is shameful and a fool.

You're truly a sick person.

Theconcept of abuse vctims being considered damaged goods is strange and says a lot about the lack of compassion in hareidi culture. I dont thin anybody outside the hareidi world would use this expression to refer to abuse victims.

@shmarya
A few years ago, after I had already been covering child sexual abuse for awhile, I ran into Manis in a kosher grocery store-deli in St. Louis Park, Minnesota. He was cold – hostile, even – and argued that I should close my blog down or erase all the material on it and use the new blog to promote Yiddishkeit,
hasidic or haredi Judaism. embelleshment
And then he walked away

I few minutes later I approached him raised the issue of child sexual abuse. "He dismissed it out of hand, not arguing that it didn't exist but treating it as if it almost didn't and wasn't really significant. And then he tried to walk away again."
let me help you.. he was dismissing you

And I said to him, "Did you hear about [ … ]? [x-number] of kids were abused. What about that?"He pursed his lips and shook his head no, not to say that he had not heard about it but to deny it's reality altogether. And he kept on walking away. "again the head shake no was to you" But I wouldn't let him go. "Manis!," I said, "These are Chabad kids! These are [x friend's] kids and [y friend's] nephew."For a second or two Manis stopped, taken aback. For those two seconds, the pedophilia had become real to him. But those two seconds quickly passed and Manis went back to being angry – at me. He pursed his lips again and shook his head no, not to deny who the victims were in that particular incident but to reproach me.
aha you finally figured out the head shaking was at you, how do you know it wasnt making light of sexual abuse like the last 2 times?

"it's not the way to do it," he said, referring to outing the pedophiles, reporting them to police, and publicizing the names of the rabbis who enable the abusers. "It's not right."
now the truth – he was referring to your website and creating blogs aimed at defaming the religous community (nothing specific to sexual abuse)

I think he said it was "lashon hara, rechillus and mesirah." And then he walked away. - never happened he might have said your website is committed to loshon horah and rechilus

thats the way i read this story which is fraught with conjecture and misleading of the audience.

What he says could make a lot of sense...

to a bunch of lobotomized zombies.

Posted by: moshe | January 29, 2013 at 02:22 AM

No, Moshe.

You're the liar, you're the dishonest person, you are the creep.

In fact, I'll go further – you're scum. You're protecting your cult and one of its leading rabbis rather than admitting the truth that is so very clear to, at this point, thousands of people.

As I clearly wrote, Manis' head-shaking followed his verbal attack on my blogging. I explained why that blogging was necessary, citing several recent scandals exposed by it. He rejected that and walked away.

When I bumped into him a few minutes later, I mentioned the child sexual abuse involving his friends' children or nephews.

He reacted as I described above, rejecting exposing pedophiles, reporting them to police, etc.

Take that in conjunction with the content of this video and you have a very good idea of what Manis Friedman believes about child sexual abuse.

As for your claims about what Friedman meant on that video, here are the words of the head rabbis of Chabad in Australia and New Zealand, who watched the video at the request of Manny Waks and were revolted by it:Dear Manny

I write on behalf also of Rabbis Ulman and Kluwgant

While it is unfair and we will not pass judgement on Rabbi Friedman without giving him the opportunity to defend himself , the utube clip stand alone requires strong comment from us.

The clip appears to theologically trivialise and minimise the physical psychological and spiritual damage caused to the victims of sexual abuse. It is simply ignorance to say we are all "damaged" in the same manner as victims of sexual abuse and it is the height of insensitivity to suggest the treatment for a victim is just to perform additional mitzvois.

Our experience as Rabbis and our understanding of the issues as conveyed by professionals in the area and indeed by victims , is that child sexual abuse is one of the most heinous crimes that can be perpetrated and it is aggravated by the lasting injurious affect it has on the victims.

When we fail to acknowledge the gravity of the crime and its devastating affect , we unwittingly assist the perpetrators as people justify their not coming forward because "its not so bad" . We fail in our duty to victims and potential victims and hamper their recovery by failing them twice. The first time by not eliminating the scourge, the second time by not acknowledging their pain.

Manny , be assured, you have the full support of the Rabbinate in uncovering and uprooting the scourge of child sexual abuse - as difficult a challenge it is for our community to face up to - and that we stand with all the victims in their search for both healing and justice.


All the best

Rabbi Moshe D. Gutnick
Dayan-Sydney Beth Din
President - Organisation of Rabbis of Australasia There's a special place in hell for people like you, Moshe [who commented several times above – NOT Rabbi Moshe Gutnick]. I hope you merit permanent relocation to it in the near future.

Rot in that hell, little man.

The whole business of "it's not the event itself which is so terrible - it's the collateral damage" is ridiculous.

That's like saying about someone who was mugged that the "event itself" was not the big deal - it's the fact that you're all bruised up and missing your wallet and traumatized and shaking every time you walk past that spot.

He says we have to look at this through the eyes of "Halocho". Well what do you think "nezek" is if not all the "collateral damage"?!

please take this article down or at least the video which was copied with out permission from youtube, and they have been contacted , this is all out of context and needs positive clarification which will be forthcoming

Well here's an interesting article from another "leading light" of theirs. Though I would argue this guy is more in tune with reality. I found it via twitter someone RT it @rabbiyys

http://www.shul.co.uk/readArticle.php?article=83

Actually reading it again it suggests things similar to what Shmarya posted here a little while ago.

First video "removed by the user".

…this is all out of context and needs positive clarification which will be forthcoming

Posted by: anon | January 29, 2013 at 03:54 AM

Please.

There were a about a dozen video clips comprising the entire talk posted on the organizations website and YouTube along with a complete audio file.

Nothing was taken out of context there or here.

Friedman said what he believes to be true. He said clearly and in its proper context.

And now Chaabd, Friedman and the sponsoring haredi organization will try to lie their collective way out of that, just like Friedman had to try to lie his way out of his pro-genocide remarks in 2009.

But most people aren't stupid and they can tell when you or Friedman or Chabad are lying.

It is your own stupidity and arrogance that blinds you to this.

So.. I return after a hiatus, and this is the first article I see.

Bearded Black-hatted Bastard still claiming that abuse is no biggie, and that it's society that makes kids self-harm and commit suicide? Check.

Frumbags like Moshe defending their cult at all costs, chazers like anon claiming that words don't mean what they mean? Check.

Twisted cultists spewing lies and hate at Shmarya, because even though he doesn't rape kids or laugh child rape off, he has the temerity to blog about it, and is bringing about the end times by doing so (or something equally fucking idiotic)? Check.


Same Hassidic shitbags, different day.

NL, welcome back!

as you can see, things in the world pretty much went to hell while you were absent. I don't want to be too quick to make any inferences, but... better you should take shorter vacations in the future...

Hey David G.

I went to that blog - shul.co.uk/blog - I'm not sure I believe it to be right at all. It smacks of justification and that's wrong!

"Another hasidic untrained and unlicensed therapist/counselor, Chabad's Rabbi Manis Friedman [...]"

The Guardian online just had an article entitled What doctors won't do. One of things enumerated was:

... see a counselor


I would never see a "counsellor" if I was having mental health problems. Absolutely anyone can claim to be a counsellor – it's an entirely unregulated area. As a result, there's a horrifying variation in the quality, and I have seen too many patients who have been further psychologically damaged by seeing poorly or under-qualified counsellors.
If I were depressed, I'd be very careful to ensure that the therapist I saw had the correct qualifications and was accredited by an organisation like BABCP [British Association For Behavioural & Cognitive Psychotherapies].
If I were paying privately, I'd only ever see a therapist who also works in the NHS or has done in the past, preferably as a chartered psychologist, because this means they have trained to a very high standard.


Max Pemberton, psychiatrist

To Manis Friedman, from the "Haredi “Mystery Man” Pleads Guilty To Child Sex Abuse Charges" thread two above this one, in case you think raping someone is similar to diahhrea....

The words of the victim on tape:

"“You ruined my life,” she said, adding that she cut herself because of the sexual abuse and tried to commit suicide. And she told Kohn that no man in the religious community would marry her because of what he did to her."

You moron, Friedman. You were caught on tape too. Next time, STFU.

Twisted cultists spewing lies and hate at Shmarya, because even though he doesn't rape kids or laugh child rape off, he has the temerity to blog about it, and is bringing about the end times by doing so (or something equally fucking idiotic)? Check.

Same Hassidic shitbags, different day.

Posted by: No_Light | January 29, 2013 at 06:06 AM

Yep. Nothing upsets me more than some dipshit, in-denial faith addict, struggling desperately to defend his/her psychopathic belief system against any and all attacks from the realm of reason and decency.

"I don't care about children being raped, people living in ignorance and poverty or non-believers spending eternity in hell. Just let me hold onto the security blanket for a little while longer!"

Narcissists and psychopaths - and there are billions of them. It's convinced me humanity is utterly worthless.

"because the victims feel like damaged goods, our job is to convince them they aren't."

Nothing like treating the symptom instead of the disease. Sad. Luke.

to the video: one can almost vomit from this selfcontent way of speaking. it's plainly disgusting. distorted values. it's just some very distorted self protective philosophy. how can people still listen to this person! e.g. lets say someone is a victim of sexual abuse, ok if the victim comes through therapy to the point, that he/she can live with it, that he/she can loose more and more the bad selfdestroying feelings about it ... we are hapy for the victim, that the bad, that was done to him/her not influences his/her life in the here and now anymore. But that someone, that claims to be a counsellor speaks in such a arrogant way about the bad that happened to another!!! almost lik: "just get over it, ... , not to have coffe for breakfast is much worse .."

I thank God that this video received wide disseminatiion. Perhaps the publicity and disgust from these videos will destroy Manis Friedman and the pseudo-intellectual claptrap that he's been deceiving young women with all these years. God has a way of destroying deceivers of the masses.

Hopefully, Manis Friedman will soon be consigned to the trash bin of evil men who led gullible people to their destruction.

God has a way of destroying deceivers of the masses.

Perhaps, but he certainly takes his sweet time.

How many centuries were we in Egypt?

this video is really shocking, especially the way they are laughing.

"the worst problem is that I feel damaged" Wow! that's the typical point of view of male-centered cultures where virginity is the most important thing and it plays no role whether sexual relations are consensual or not!

"It does not matter who did the damage!" Wow! So here he goes abolishing the founding principles of any justice system.

Jeff -The whole egypt story is a fabrication just like theese rebbis lifes nothing is real only their deception.

When I was fifteen, I was raped at knifepoint by a 17-year-old boy in my neighborhood--one I had liked and trusted. The damage is life-long.I will never be over this.

After this experience, I simply can't stand looking at this man smirk and laugh when he discusses such a painful issue.

This is obscene. Years ago, I read his book "Doesn't Anyone Blush Anymore?" It was full of smug, self-righteous cant like "If you don't have something, you don't need it." Really? Tell that to a child who is dying in agony from lack of food or *basic* medical care. His mind is so clouded by fundamentalism that he can't see anything beyond it. What a jerk.

Pirik,

you have a point. in fact, I was trying to point this out to a dead body the other day. "Stop acting like a murder victim, you sniveling little sob," I told him (or it). "What were you thinking when you stayed in the path of that oncoming bullet?"

But I got no response. I think he (it) just needs some counseling to get one his (its) issues.

Since the vast majority of readers on this "it's the frumma's fault, not mine" site would like to do nothing with their life and rather blame someone else for the fact that they have not accomplished much in their lives, he is threatening your "safety bubble."

To the contrary, it is the existence of this site that threatens YOUR "safety bubble".

I am not Shmarya - and it always amuses me that you frumchiks single out Shmarya's weight. How much cholent did you guzzle the other day, Captain America?

What an insensitive, pompous jerk!
Bet he'd tell his daughter that she should just move on and get over it!! Somehow when it hits home you will not find that it's so easy to laugh and dismiss it as shilshul.
But that's what an over inflated ego will do for you. Most of these people who reached popularity in the chabad mind numbing club during the rebbes hey-day had a sort of star status that they were given by their bt groupies. Yes, he can talk, but a lot of what he says is the coolaide stuff that they sell off to the public.
I wish I had seen 40 years ago what they really were then before I wasted my youth and my education on staying in their system. As long as you swallow the bs they win you over with and follow what they tell you to do and not ever question- you will be a good little follower. Drink your coolaide and listen to your mashpiah who will then give you uneducated advice according to whatever she thinks is right, and you should leave the problem solving up to them - they'll do your thinking for you!They decide what you should study, where , who you should be allowed to go out with, when and who your children should be allowed to go out with, where you are allowed to fit in and even what you are allowed to let your children play with.
Isn't that nice?
Start to think and ask questions and your out of the circle and you and your family are outsiders !

Our connection with G-d needs to be primary. The rebbe is/was a person like everyone of us. He never had all the answers and the constant story telling and awe of him and leaving out the reality of his and his wifes lives is ridiculous. Those like manis would loose whatever special control or popularity they have over followers. Seeing the system the way it really is and who the people that run it, are just human beings like the rest of us Just as the rebbe was.
I'm sorry but manis needs to go for sensitivity counseling or maybe he is just getting too old to do this anymore and losing it.
He's starting to believe the chabad redderik he's been recycling all these years.
You think G-d wants you to stand by and protect the jewish community from mesirah?, while you stand by and allow mollesters free reign and a place to hide their disgusting perversions? You've brainwashed yourself and others not to question those in authority- because they know best.
What happens when we do question you and realize that hey you and your famlies are human beings grappling with all the same " desires" and problems and that you are failing big time and dont have all the answers ????!
Time for us followers to stop following and to start using our own brains and logic.
I have taken off my rose colored glasses and now see you for what you all really are ,
nothing more than fellow frail confused human beings who never had the answers but put on a good show for a long time.

Pirik -You are tottaly ignoring the fact that when a trusted grownup especially one that is intrusted to teach young children migot character and toreh does a vile act like molestation the person(s) cannot just go on and live their lives like nothing happened,the rebbis broke a cardinal rule you have no idea what is it feels until you actually get molested ,there are no words to describe the evil that imposed itself on you it kills the soul everything that theese rebbis the toreh they teach is worthless in the childs mind words cannot describe the rage that it is a rage that cannot just go away and to think like you that theese rebbis should be let of without any punishment is inconceivable to a decent rational person, you should be ashamed of youreself for the indifference that you exhibit here you are no a ben toreh you are the opposite on the side of satan.

Pirik- You are truly a shoite ,what rabbi manis friedman says he says it from his comfortable side where he never ever experienced anything remotly like molestation he cant speak for anyone else besides himself and you quoting him like he says just forget about it is pure insanity he is emotionally untouched so he has no right whatsoever to speak on others bahalf who were molested it is the hight of stupidity to behave like you and manis shame on you.

I would love to see this creep exposed in some secular Jewish newspaper.

How about the one in Minneapolis? Even if they don't give you credit Shmarya, you can sit back and gloat that another maggot got exposed to the 'light'

Lets see if a certain Minnesotan ex-senator is so fond of these creeps anymore.

I read in his "Why people dooesn't blush..." that desiring children is not an averyre, just immodest. It goes together with his broader view on the subject I see. He must be a molester or at least an enabler.

Posted by: Pirik | January 29, 2013 at 10:02 AM

Pirik, I'm agreeing with you!!! I tried also convincing the dead body, but he (it) won't listen. Maybe if I yelled? STOP THINKING YOUR CONDITION IS IRREVERSABLE, YOU STUPID PIECE OF LIFELESS FLESH, AND GET UP AND DO SOMETHING USEFUL WITH YOURSELF!!

Preface by saying that calling his answer to Moment magazine a "call for genocide" is hyperbolic, reflexive and fairly tame compared to what emanates from the PA, Egypt et al on the subject. I do not think R. Friedman, Chabad rock star, has any more clout on than celebrities here. Nor do I believe he would advocate someone actually killing real people in the manner implied.

However, on this subject, he certainly did not measure his words, and I agree that he must have been repackaging the words of the Rebbe, as he does not seem comfortable with the underlying idea at all, were it originated by him. That is why he is repackaging it. This statement may prove to be another public black eye for Chabad.

Did you tell Rabbi Friedman that he should recant his public writings, his published talks, his videos, his magic supporting claptrap as well as his Chabad theology and replace them with writings that promote critical thinking, higher education, evidence based science, healthy skepticism and diversity?

Manis is right--even according to the APA--the self-talk of the "victim' is the determinant of whether any "trauma" actually occurred in situ or even ex post facto.

The fiasco the Psychological Association was referring to had followed its own publication of a controversial study by Rind, et al. which concluded that man-boy, "consensual" sexual relationships were not necessarily harmful and might even be positive.
Let's not forget that in Ancient Greece to become a catamite after the "overtures" of an aristocratic "Sandusky" of that time
would have been a disideratum.
http://narth.com/docs/pedcrisis.html

Dear Shmarya,

I am an avid reader of your blog. You often show much wisdom and penetrating insight to issues which most others do not see. In other words you usually see beyond what is visible and beyond the shallow surface.

In this case, it seems your (justified) first reaction was so powerful, that you were unable to think deeper, and BEYOND the words he uttered.

Two important facts:

1. My wife was abused/assaulted and suffers from it every day.

2. I know Rabbi Friedman well, and have heard him teach, speak and entertain many, many, many times.

As you mentioned - he is extremely popular, and world renowned for his deep, insightful and fresh approach to almost every major issue that plagues society. From parenting, to self awareness, spirituality and marriage. His best proof are his thousands of students, fans and individuals who have a deep respect for his wisdom and compassion. There is NO ONE who will tell you that Manis Friedman is insensitive. There is also no one who will tell you that Manis Friedman is an idiot. He simply isn't. A simple google search and listening to almost any of his lectures will affirm this.

We are now faced with a terrible and disturbing dilemma. How could such a talented and insightful person have such a twisted understanding of such a highly sensitive, emotionally charged issue, that has proven consequences in every day life - including all issues mentioned above in your post and the comments? HOW COULD IT BE? It is simply not like him??

I ask out of pain and frustration.

Please notice the difference in our reactions. You saw a disturbing video, and unfortunately, you chose to be the judge, jury and executioner. You used your G-d given talent, and your privilege of having a wide audience, and published a post which borders on defamation. You are so (rightfully) incensed that you (and other posters) refuse to even contact him first! You even refuse to let him respond!

You have shown your integrity time and again. It behooves you to show a common decency to a person who has been an inspiration to hundreds of thousands of people. I am not saying that you ought to agree with him or to endorse him. Rather, before you character assassinate him - and before you invalidate ALL of his wisdom, talent, credentials and teachings, you should give him EQUAL and non-judgmental platform in your INITIAL reaction and in your INITIAL report.

I feel that your 'tirade' was born out of anger and overwhelming (justified) emotions, that you failed to hold under control, and give it second thought.

With esteem and blessing.

Well, are you the husband of the abuser or the husband of the abused? I'm betting you are neither.

In this day and age of technology when we can watch and listen ourselves why should anyone contact him first? And he does have a platform, just like you. He knows it's here. Let him post here. He already used his platform to let everyone know what he really is.

Does anyone check in with Shmarya before they attack him?

Husband of abuser-You are the perfect example of why molestation have been going on for decades ,after all the molester is a renowned fantastic tzadik how can we take a simple boy seriously,thats how you think he manis is such a fantastic person he is a god in youre eyes that the way all those enablers this he can do no wrong no matter what,you are hypnotized by him and you dont even know it you are so deep in his hypnosis that you cant differenciate right from wrong,get help the sooner the better for you.

mendel-You are very very disturbed,the child has no ability to have consensual sex he fears his elders or his trusted rabbis you cant be for real,if you are you are vile and despicable mentally deranged.

jancsibacsi
Tell that to the authors of the Rind study, not to me.
Except for my "catamite" comment re Sandusky in Ancient Greece I merely reported the facts.
If the APA's view prevails pedophillia will become as chic as homosexuality is today.

Prick - You're so damaged that I almost, almost feel sorry for you. I don't though.

Your people will be dragged into the 21st century by your peyot, or they will be left in the Bronze Age deserts to become extinct.

Your barbaric views about women and the victims of rape and rabbinic treachery will be wiped out, and the world will be a better place for it.


Child-raping pigs and their defenders and enablers are FILTH. The world is polluted by their very existence. Anyone who minimises and trivialises the pain and damage inflicted on raped children is, frankly, not much better than the person who hurt them originally. They back-up the rapists' already inherent belief that it's not so bad, that children want to be fucked by adult men, but society makes them feel guilty for wanting it.

These predators then go out into the world, select a new victim, fully convinced that they're in the right because "The rabbi said so".

Sick bastards, every one of them. Every one of YOU idiots who defend, excuse and enable them.


You have blood on your hands. Congratulations.

Now, Moshiach Eli and Jeff, hello there! Ice Station No-Light (well, the whole of the UK, not just our house!) has made life excruciating. So I went to town on delicious medications to get me through the cold spell. It was a hell of a holiday - me, Netflix, and a promise to the wifelet that I'd stay off the internet in case I spent her January bonus (on fancy aquarium decor and gifts for sick friends and relatives) in a drugged stupor!


I've missed you guys. Even missed nipping at the heels of the BBHBB, and ecstatic to see that Nastybeard Weberman got a proper sentence, and will hopefully never see daylight again.

Mendel -

If the APA's view prevails pedophillia will become as chic as homosexuality is today.

Fuck you. Paedophile-defending cultist frumbag that you are.


Tell me - why exactly are you so keen on insisting that children want to have sex with grown men like yourself?

No_Light
You have an apt nickname.
If you had a mere scintilla of "light" you would not have attacked me, merely the messenger, but the pschetypes who can do more damage with their perverse view of things than the events themselves.
Listen to Manis as he says as much in the beginning of the video. After that, revisit the narth site via the link I posted-- Narth is the anti homo and anti pedo
organization-- get it?
Navigate to here and turn on the light:
http://narth.com/docs/pedcrisis.html

If only you could explicate the simplest prose you would not be such a pinhead.

No Light, welcome home. I would like to offer myself to personally test your drugs to make sure none of these evil doers are trying to poison you.

Posted by: mendel | January 29, 2013 at 01:34 PM

Mendel,

Personal attacks on your are more than justified.

You lie, you misrepresent and you make false claims all the time in order to support your insistence that the dead Rebbe is the messiah and that his cult followers are blameless no matter what evil they may have done or advocated doing.

In this case, you are completely misrepresenting what the APA did and what psychological research into pedophilia shows.

A person with sexual desires toward children but who has never acted on them in some cases may not require therapy. Why?

Because that person has already found ways to control his desires.

And unfortunately, therapy is rarely successful. That's why so many pedophiles re-offend.

So in some very limited cases, it may be better for a psychologist to do nothing than it would be for that psychologist to try to treat the victim, because that treatment, which brings increased self-focus on the desires, may cause the patient to become suicidal, to start self-destructive behaviors, etc.

Is the desire to have sex with children something that some people are born with or is it something they 'acquire' through complex environmental factors?

In theory, research shows that some pedophile are born with the desire to have sex with children, then the only thing therapy could really do for them is to teach them to control that desire so it is not acted on.

To take that idea and to pervert it into the APA approving of pedophilia as a "normal" sexuality is disgusting and dishonest.

mendel,you are a danger to yourself(which I don't care)and to the general public.You must be hospitalized as soon as possible!

Pirik is a sockpuppet who has posted comments under several different aliases and names and has been previously warned not to do so.

anon, Harry and Jack-NY are the same person, as well, sockpuppeting to try to redeem Friedman through lies.

I'm deleting all these comments and each commenter is now banned.

Here s a link to hear the entire 2 hour talk The clip presented was a collage of several different, disconnected segments of a discussion that covered a broad range of topics.

Here is the full talk:

http://11213.org/2013/01/17/the-secret-to-kindling-a-soul-in-the-year-2013


Shmar you accuse me of having your own distorted misrepresentations Ecce Homo:
In this case, you are completely misrepresenting what the APA did and what psychological research into pedophilia shows.

A person with sexual desires toward children but who has never acted on them in some cases may not require therapy. Why?

Because that person has already found ways to control his desires.
False, look at the current DSM:
With the 1994 publication of the DSM-IV, the description41 and diagnostic criteria42 of pedophilia were changed such that a child molester was “considered to have a psychiatric disorder only if his actions caused clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational or other important areas of functioning.”43 Thus, the APA’s classifications of sexual deviancy were gradually shifted from an objective description of aberrant behavior toward the subjective thoughts and perceptions of the individual. Therefore, according to the DSM-IV, if a person feels no desire to change, there is no need to change.44 For example, a man who molests children without remorse and significant impairment in his social and work relationships, according to the DSM-IV, could possibly be diagnosed as normal—a psychologically normal type of pedophile.45
Shmar your ignorance and, as a consequence, calumnies are legendary Why do you insist on embarrasing yourself so?
http://www.drjudithreisman.com/archives/Reisman.Strickland.pdf

Posted by: Atheodox Jew | January 29, 2013 at 02:37 AM

Very, very well stated response.

Here s a link to hear the entire 2 hour talk The clip presented was a collage of several different, disconnected segments of a discussion that covered a broad range of topics.

Here is the full talk:

http://11213.org/2013/01/17/the-secret-to-kindling-a-soul-in-the-year-2013

Posted by: shosh | January 29, 2013 at 03:22 PM

That is a blatant lie.

The video clip was one of about a dozen such clips posted by the org that hosted Friedman. It was not edited, meaning it contains in real time exactly what Friedman said in the order he said it with nothing removed.

The lies of Chabad, it seems, will never end.

Shmarya, I was not accusing you of editing a tape. All I said was that the 8 minute clip posted on several websites was an edit from a 2 hour talk. I then posted a link to the entire talk (which includes these, relevant parts).

Loosen up and smile :)

mendel, you lowlife vomitus,

in addition to the distortion pointed out by shmarya, the site you linked refers to whether or not the pedo can be considered psychologically normal. absent any manifestation he could be. likewise, most murderers are free of any psychological diagnosis. that isnt a value judgement on child rape or murder. its just saying that a "normal" person can have such desires and commit heinous acts.
the rand study concluded that some cases of consensual man-boy sex were not NECESSARILY harmful. so what ?? in many cases they are VERY harmful and a child rapist cant possibly know whether or not his victim will suffer a lifetime of pain or not. nor can we discern what is "consensual" when it comes to a minor.
some children who have had their heads bashed against a wall will suffer no long term damage. that doesnt make the act any less vile.
your agreement with friedman is evidence of your cult-borne immorality. you are evil.

Posted by: mendel | January 29, 2013 at 03:35 PM

Mendel,

I understand the follow point will shock you, but I doubt many others here will be surprised by it at all – you do not understand what the APA was saying.

A pedophile who feels no remorse at all may not benefit from treatment, Mendel, because for some types of pedophiles like this treatment can't help him.

And if therapy cannot help it should not be done unless it will not inflict further harm on the patient.

This is not a value judgement on pedophilia, it is not an endorsement of certain types of pedophilia – it is recognition that in some distinct cases, talk therapy and behavioral therapy cannot help but could make the situation worse.

“[Someone with sexual desires toward children is] considered to have a psychiatric disorder only if his actions caused clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational or other important areas of functioning,” means that if he does not act on those desires and if they do not impair him, he may not be psychologically sick – i.e., therapy won't help him and could make him worse.

They are also beginning to deal with the issues of genetics and the hard wiring of the brain.

A person is not automatically sick psychologically if they are born with a desire to do something that is evil or that we label immoral.

He may, however be physically ill, just like someone born with a genetic disease or with brain damage is.

The question then becomes one of benefit. Can talk or behavioral therapy help these people?

In some case, yes. In other cases, no.

The APA's language is clear. Someone who acts on his desires for sex with children and who feels no remorse and has no shame for doing so may not be someone talk therapy can help.

However, if tomorrow a new drug is developed that blocks those bad sexual desires, it would be prescribed to pedophiles who have acted on those sexual desires toward kids.

That NAMBLA thinks otherwise is one of the reasons we have police, courts of law and prisons.

Shmarya, I was not accusing you of editing a tape. All I said was that the 8 minute clip posted on several websites was an edit from a 2 hour talk. I then posted a link to the entire talk (which includes these, relevant parts).

Loosen up and smile :)

Posted by: shosh | January 29, 2013 at 03:54 PM

No, Shosh, you lied intentionally to make it apear as if I or someone else cobbled together lots of different statements of Friedman and tried to pass it off as a cohesive whole.

You lied. Period. end of your story.

Mendel, why do you even care about what the APA says? Just go the Ohel, drop a letter to your holy moshiach and Presto! - all the pedophiles will be cured!

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