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January 17, 2013

New Genetic Study Reportedly Proves Khazar Ancestry For Ashkenazi Jews

Khazaria mapAshkenazi Jews are a mix of genetic ancestries, far more of which than previously thought originating in tribes from the Caucasus – a region that sits in between Eastern Europe and Asia between the Black and the Caspian seas. Those Slav, Scythian, Hunnic-Bulgar, Iranian, Alan and Turkic tribes formed a confederation that created the Khazar empire – which at its height stretched from Kiev in the west to the Aral Sea in the southeast.

Khazaria map

New Genetic Study Reportedly Proves Khazar Ancestry For Ashkenazi Jews
Shmarya Rosenberg • Failedmessiah.com

Ashkenazi Jews are a mix of genetic ancestries, far more of which than previously thought originating in tribes from the Caucasus – a region that sits in between Eastern Europe and Asia between the Black and the Caspian seas, Reuters reports. Those Slav, Scythian, Hunnic-Bulgar, Iranian, Alan and Turkic tribes formed a confederation that created the Khazar empire – which at its height stretched from Kiev in the west to the Aral Sea in the southeast.

Members of those tribes, thought to be primarily from the upper and merchant classes, converted to Judaism in the 8th century CE, a new genetic study has found.

Those conversions are believed to have been sparked by a small number of Jews with origins in the biblical Land of Israel who traveled to the region.

The Khazar empire also saw immigration by Jews from Mesopotamia and imperial Byzantium.

It became so successful that it formed colonies in Hungary and Romania.

But it didn’t last.

After more than 500 years, the Khazar’s empire collapsed in the 13th century CE due to Mongol attacks and the Black Death. Many Jewish refugees fled westward into Eastern Europe, becoming the bulk of what we know today as Ashkenazi Jewry.

Known as the Khazar Hypothesis, it had previously been dismissed by geneticists whose studies often contradicted each other and which often seemed to be geared to proving a preconceived notion or desire – near-unadulterated ancestry from ancient Judea – rather than discovering the truth.

That led geneticist Eran Elhaik of the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health in Baltimore, Maryland to try to reconcile those conflicting studies. And that led him to genetic data that he believes proves the Khazar Hypothesis is accurate.

Elhaik found ancestral genetic signatures that pointed clearly to the Caucasus. He also found such signatures that pointed the Middle East, but to a far, far smaller degree.

“We conclude that the genome of European Jews is a tapestry of ancient populations including Judaised Khazars, Greco-Roman Jews, Mesopotamian Jews and Judeans. Their population structure was formed in the Caucasus and the banks of the Volga, with roots stretching to Canaan and the banks of the Jordan,” Elhaik claims.

Previous genetic studies appeared to support the Rhineland Hypothesis, which posits that Ashkenazi Jews descended from Jews who fled the Land of Israel after the Moslem conquest in 638 AD, settling in southern Europe and slowly working their way north. 50,000 supposedly later moved from the Rhineland into eastern Europe in the later Middle Ages.

But there are serious problems with the Rhineland Hypothesis – so serious that some of its proponents actually posited a Divine miracle to account for them.

For example, the population of Eastern European Jews surged from 50,000 in the 15th century CE to about 8 million by the start of the 20th century – a birthrate 10 times greater than the local non-Jewish population that surrounded them. That implausible population surge would have had to take place despite the economic hardship, wars and pogroms that ravaged those Jewish communities, and the plague that ravaged the entire region.

Another problem with the Rhineland Hypothesis is Yiddish, the language of Eastern European Jews.

“Yiddish, the language of Central and Eastern European Jews, began as a Slavic language,” Elhaik notes. It was classified as a dialect of High German later.

European Jews and their ancestral groups in the Caucasus and Middle East share a relatively high risk of diseases such as cystic fibrosis, as well – another possible indicator of origins.

Elhaik’s study, published in the British journal Genome Biology and Evolution, compares the genomes of 1,287 unrelated individuals who come from eight Jewish and 74 non-Jewish populations.

In 2008, an archaeologist found what he believes was the capital of the Khazar's empire but had found no identifiable Jewish artifacts at the site at that time.

Some contemporaneous and near-contemporaneous historical accounts from surrounding cultures note the Khazar's adherence to Judaism.

[Hat Tip: HeathenHassid.]

Comments

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See and here I figured you'd be the kind of guy who'd be working to prove that the Khazar-Jewish thing never happened but instead you're using it to claim we're all a bunch of Caucasians.

It became so successful that it formed colonies in Hungary and Romania.
Now it makes alot of sense to me since i speak hungarian i know of many words that in hungarian and hebrew are the same for instance in hungarian dream is alom or halom the same as in hebrew halom and other words i wont go into, ialso read that the khazars made a packt with hungary in case others attack one of them they will come to the defense of the other and also read here on the internet that they incorporated each others language meaning hebrew into hungarianand vice verse

>“Yiddish, the language of Central and Eastern European Jews, began as a Slavic language,” Elhaik notes. It was classified as a dialect of High German later.

This is complete and total ignorance. It is at BEST a fringe view, and also a distortion of that fringe view.

Jancsi,which other words are similar in Hungarian and Hebrew?They don't come in mind to me now.

DNA this genetics that, doesn't matter. Racism is a very strong yetzer ra we should fight against! I must admit I also have trouble with it when I see people of color, I hate my thoughts for this.
Hashem cares about our neshama and our dedication to mitzvot.

A Yid is a Yid. That's the end of it.

How about that. We Jews are more Caucasian than White Anglo Saxon Protestants.

Abu Jihad Schneerson-The word tirhe magyarul terhemre van megterhelni terhe means burden.

The word cholera is from the hebrew word chole ra ,also lithography lithos in hebrew luchos shenei luchos

Wow!Thanks,jancsibacsi!My father used to tell me that Hungarian contains many Turkish,German and Slavic words.But I didn't know about Hebrew words!

Still Waiting for a scientific study to prove that the somehow there is no scientific way for the nazis to have killed 6,000,000 Jews in just six years, since that is more than 10 times the rate at which the non-Jewish populace was killed (per capita, of course), and considering also that it was a time of great wars and misfortune.

But I didn't know about Hebrew words!

abu jihad, actually alom (accented a) is dream in hungarian. it's even unelma in finnish (tks to google) - a sister language to hungarian.

Thanks,Yosef ben Matitya!I know,cause Hungarian is almost my mother tongue.

Hungarian is almost my mother tongue.

wow! what would a Schneerson be doing in Hungary! :-)

I can't think of a name yet
January 17, 2013 at 03:34 PM

is your question a holocaust denial question? go visit the camps!

Yosef ben Matitya -Interestingly unelma in hungarian means boring unalmas,by the way apple in hungarian is alma the same word that comes from alma ata capital of mongolia the capital was names alma because the apple originated there thats what i heard.

Oh, please.

"The word cholera is from the hebrew word chole ra ,also lithography lithos in hebrew luchos shenei luchos"

No, cholera is derived from the Greek word for bile. Two of the four humors, on which European medicine was based from antiquity to the 18th century, are yellow bile (choler, from which we get the term 'choleric' to describe a certain personality type) and black bile from which we derive the term melancholy. The word cholera appears in Hippocrates, nothing to do with Hebrew origins.

Lithography dates from the early 19th century and is a coinage based on the Greek word lithos (stone). Again nothing to do with Hebrew.

“'Yiddish, the language of Central and Eastern European Jews, began as a Slavic language,' Elhaik notes. It was classified as a dialect of High German later."

What meshugas! Although for obvious reasons, there have been both Jewish and German scholars who would have preferred that Yiddish had nothing to do with German, nonetheless Yiddish is a High German language with significant loan words from Hebrew, Aramaic and Slavic, with lesser contributions from other languages (e.g., bentsch and leyn which are both Romance/Italic). I can testify that, except for those loan words, Yiddish and Pennsylfawnisch Deitsch (Pennsylvania Dutch) are to a reasonable extent mutually intelligible.

For a good introduction to the history of Yiddish written for a lay audience, I would recommend Dovid Katz's Words on Fire. See http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0465037305/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-6586692-6366564#reader-link to read the introduction. Katz, born in Brooklyn and educated in the US, has since relocated to Vilna where he pursues his academic career. For more about Katz see his website www.dovidkatz.net. He has a variety of publications illuminating the Litvak experience which may be of interest.

There is a bit of controversy about the place of origin of Yiddish--the majority opinion looks to the Rhineland, while others look farther east to the Danube. Even if one supports the Danube hypothesis, however, the fact remains that Yiddish has both grammar and basic vocabulary derived from German, not from Polish or Russian or Old Church Slavonic or any other Slavic language.

MM--So let me understand luchos which is from the word shenei luchos in the bible is a greek word the word shenei lucho 2 stones so luchos is greek no way,als chole ra means a bad sickness thats also a greek word?

There's actually no direct evidence that the Khazars ever converted to Judaism. It's all based on descriptions by Muslims.
See http://www.jewishideasdaily.com/636/features/jews-and-khazars-again-or-never/

"MM--So let me understand luchos which is from the word shenei luchos in the bible is a greek word the word shenei lucho 2 stones so luchos is greek no way,als chole ra means a bad sickness thats also a greek word?"

No, I didn't say that. I said that lithos is an ancient Greek word from which lithography is a modern coinage. I also said that cholera (derived from choler, meaning bile) is a Greek word which appears in the works of Hippocrates. I did not say that the biblical word is Greek.

I am a Germanic philologist with a background in Indo-European philology in general. I have absolutely no knowledge of Semitic philology, or Finno-Ugaric for that matter. So I can say nothing about the ultimate origins of biblical words.

But I can say a couple of things:

(a) Just because two words begin with the same sound or sound similar in some other way does not necessarily mean that they are in any way related. For example, an acquaintance just named her son Kai, and I asked her if she was thinking of the Northwestern European name or the Hawaiian name. The two are pronounced and spelled exactly the same way, but the European name is derived from the Latin Gaius (Julius Caesar's name), originally Etruscan, meaning unknown. The Hawaiian Kai means ocean, obviously an important concept for Polynesians. But there is no way an Etruscan word could influence Hawaiian or vice versa. It's just a coincidence. BTW in this case the parents were thinking Hawaiian.

(b) We know that in biblical times our ancestors had contact with the Hittites. The Hittites, whose empire was based in Anatolia, spoke an Indo-European language, and so it is possible that in the far past Hebrew and Hittite could have had some (slight) influence on each other's vocabulary. But I know of no reason to think that the roots of lithos and choler went from Hebrew to Hittite to Greek or the reverse.

The evidence that the Khazars converted to Judaism is set out in the "Kitab al-Khazari" of Judah haLevi.

From Wikipedia:

In 1951 Southern Methodist University professor John O. Beaty published The Iron Curtain over America, a work which claimed that "Khazar Jews" were "responsible for all of America's — and the world's — ills beginning with World War I". The book repeated a number of familiar antisemitic claims, placing responsibility for U.S. involvement in World Wars I and II and the Bolshevik revolution on these Khazars, and insisting that Khazar Jews were attempting to subvert Western Christianity and establish communism throughout the world. The American millionaire J. Russell Maguire gave money towards its promotion, and it was met with enthusiasm by hate groups and the extreme right.[52][53] By the 1960s the Khazar theory had become a "firm article of faith" amongst Christian Identity groups.

The Khazar theory still enjoys popularity among anti-Zionists[55] and antisemites.[96] Such proponents argue that if Ashkenazi Jews are primarily Khazar and not Semitic in origin, they would have no historical claim to Israel, nor would they be the subject of God's Biblical promise of Canaan to the Israelites, thus undermining the theological basis of both Jewish religious Zionists and Christian Zionists. In the 1970s and 80s the Khazar theory was also advanced by some Russian chauvinist antisemites, particularly the historian Lev Gumilyov, who portrayed "Judeo-Khazars" as having repeatedly sabotaged Russia's development since the 7th century.[97]

A 1999 study by Hammer et al., published in the Proceedings of the United States National Academy of Sciences compared the Y chromosomes of Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian Jews with 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. It found that "Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level... The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."[98] According to Nicholas Wade "The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism."

These studies are certainly interesting, and might yield further historical insight. However they have no role in contemporary decision making for those who follow halachic Judaism. Moreover, I doubt any fair minded country under the rule of law would ever consider these dna studies relevant for deciding issues of citizenship or tribal membership either. Therefore, when I hear Arab intellectuals and academics making a big deal of Khazar history with explicit attempts to delegitize Jews or Israel I know they are full of it, and hypocrites.

But there are serious problems with the Rhineland Hypothesis – so serious that some of its proponents actually posited a Divine miracle to account for them.

For example, the population of Eastern European Jews surged from 50,000 in the 15th century CE to about 8 million by the start of the 20th century – a birthrate 10 times greater than the local non-Jewish population that surrounded them.

No need for a miracle, even modern age haredis have birth rate much higher than the non-Jewish population.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=298204

For those who'd like a different perspective.

What about the Sephardic contribution to the Ashkenazic gene pool? Some Yiddish names were originally Spanish, for example. Mendel is Mendez, Shneur is Senior, and Shprinza is Esperanza.

http://menachemmendel.net/blog/jews-and-the-khazars-again/

And more.

Honestly, Michael, is your last name Goebbels? Just wondering.

All nationalities are constructs, if you get right down to it. Genetics notwithstanding, if you identify with the Jewish people, then as far as I'm concerned you're part of the Jewish nation. (Yes, I know this opinion of mine is not halachic). Just like an "American" is anyone who identifies with the United States, and not just the descendants of paleolithic hunters who crossed the Bering land bridge.

In some corny "diversity" exercise, we had to stand up and announce which countries our grandparents came from. I hated it, because I don't give a fuck about Poland, Ukraine, and Austria, and the feeling is mutual. I am not a Pole, Austrian, Ukrainian or Russian. And I am certainly not a Turk, no matter where my distant Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal ancestors hailed from. I would say this even if it turned out my family was originally Subotniks (ethnic Slavic Russians who embraced Orthodox Judaism). If you identify with Israel, you spiritual ancestors are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I'll leave genetic bean counting to the Aryan Nation. I am an American and a Jew; I have a fatherland and a motherland, and I love them both. I embrace the Avot and the Founding Fathers.

"The word cholera is from the hebrew word chole ra [...]"

It's from the Greek. Chole means bile or gall. You see it in the word cholecystectomy -- surgical removal of the gall bladder.

"[...] if you identify with the Jewish people, then as far as I'm concerned you're part of the Jewish nation."

Judaism as an idea. That's sort of the point isn't it? The whole "אור לגויים" -- it's all about propagating the message.

What about the Sephardic contribution to the Ashkenazic gene pool?

There were also open "pockets" of Sephardic culture in Eastern Europe. Zamosc, Poland, for instance, had a sizable community. Y.L. Peretz, who was from Zamosc, proudly claimed Sephardic ancestry.

Honestly, Michael, is your last name Goebbels? Just wondering.

No, this is the infamous Michael Hoffman the conspiracy theorist and antisemite. It is the same style he is using on Amazon reviews and White supremacist websites.

@Friar Yid
Galicia, whence my father's side hailed had many Jews whose Sephardic ancestors eventually intermarried with the Ashkenazim. But, as in the case of my late paternal Bubbe's town of Dinuv (Dynow), many Jews still had names that can be considered Sephardic like "Sinai" (which was Yiddishized as "Syneh") or "Itamar" ("Yesomer").
The Epstein family of "Aruch HaShulchan" and "Torah Temimah" fame were also Sephardim, descended from Spanish emigrants. (I just happen to know a young Rabbi Epstein of the aforementioned family. He told me they no longer follow the Sephardic rite.)


The jew-hater Michael A. Hoffman II is now trolling about on FM? He hails from Queens, New York, his wife is Jewish and so, therefore are the children he sired with her. At one time he was a reporter for the A.P. but became an outspoken anti-Semite upon being fired by a Jew. The man is obsessed with the idea that everything associated with "Judaics" - as he calls us - contravenes humanity.

What matters is not where you came from but rather your path to salvation. God accepts anyone who believes and has good behavior.

Yochanan Lavie,excellently said!

"The word cholera is from the hebrew word chole ra [...]"

actually there was a cholera outbreak in israel in 1968. they chose to use choli (disease, not sick)raa, for the similarity to the foreign word. just like israelis use nescafe for instant coffee meaning in their mind miracle coffee not the original nestle brand coffee. so elite, produces nescafe too!

jancsibacsi | January 17, 2013 at 04:26 PM

thank u jancsi for the infp.

Thanks, Abu. It was a bit of a rant, because I wrote it emotionally, just before I went to bed. I am not afraid of the idea that some Jewish communities, including mine, might not be Semitic in origin. We must never be afraid of the truth, no matter how uncomfortable.

But there are facts, and then there is interpretation of the facts; what are the implications, what does it all mean to our perspective on life. In other words there are mere facts, important as they are, and then there is The Truth. The Truth has to be based on the facts, but it is not identical to them.

The Truth about Judaism, in all but its most extreme Classical Reform iterations (which even Eric Yoffe would probably not embrace), states that we are both a nation and a religion. Christianity is only a religion, thanks to Saul Paulus; there is no difference between Jew and Greek in Christ Jesus. Islam is more ambiguous; it talks of an "umma" but nationalities have stubbornly persisted in its realm. Read the Jewish miqra, and it is clearly the story of a single family that founded a religion and became a nation after Sinai. Maybe some or all of this founding myth (here used neutrally) are not literally true; not the "facts," but all except the most politically contentious "biblical minimalist" scholars concur that an Israelite nation somehow emerged out of Canaanite culture. The Hebrew Bible talks of Jewish kings, foreign relations, and national cultural debates (Eliyahu vs. Baal, etc.). The Christian "New" Testament talks only about a belief system. (Again, the Qu'ran occupies a middle ground). Some of the stuff in the Bible has been proven, some debunked, some still debatable. But there is enough of an archaeological and historical record to prove that a Judean/Israelite culture did emerge as a nation, and not only as a belief system.

So, who are heirs to this ancient nation? If one is a racial essentialist, maybe Hoffman's beloved fellahin are (shades of Rousseauvian Romantic Pastorialism?). But they have shaken their identity with both Judaism as a religion, and a Jewish ethnic-national identity. There are less Jewish folkways in them, apart from those co-opted much later by Islam, than in the Hispanic descendents of Conversos. So they neither see themselves, nor are seen by others, as Jews.

What about the naturalized Jewish citizens, the descendents of converts? At one time 10% of the Roman Empire was Jewish. Many Greeks, Arabs, and even a few Romans converted. Later on, other conversionary communities emerged: the Khazars, the Subotniks, the Ethiopian Beta Israel,etc. These descendents see themselves, and are seen by others, as Jews. They have kept the culture alive, the religion alive, the historical memory alive, and in most cases preserved the Hebrew language. If I was a racial purist, I would say they can't possibly be Jews. But since I am not a racist, I say that memes are more important than genes (not my phrase; I can't take credit for it).

What about other "organic" nations? The French are a mixture of Celtic, Roman, and Frankish (Germanic) bloodlines. The Basques don't even speak an Indo-European language and are different genetically. The Occatans and Provencal have had their languages and cultures supressed. The Normans were Norsemen; Vikings who adopted French culture in return for the right to settle in Normandy. The Bretons are really Britons; Celtic refugees from Britain when the illegitimate Anglo-Saxon occupiers established their illegal settlements (UN resolution, anyone?). People from Brittany (and many of their French Canadian descendents) often have Celtic surnames. They preserved their Celtic language almost until the 20th century. The Alsatians had a unique language that was a mixture of old German and French, and their culture and architecture are also a hybrid. Over a million Pied Noirs fled to France after Algerian independence; this eruv rav was of mixed descent: French, Spanish, Italian, and Maltese. Also, almost a million Harkis, who considered themselves French Muslims rather than Algerians, followed suite (as did the entire Jewish community). And I'm not even touching on more recent immigrants. So what is "France" and who is "French?" To whom should we return this occupied territory? And if we figured out that question, are people of mixed descent still "indigenous?"

France is not organic; it is an idea. Just like the United States, Israel, the Jewish People, the Palestinians, and the British. Even seemingly ethnically homogenous nations in Asia also have a history of conquest, consolidation, forced assimilation, and cultural influence from outside. But only the Jews need to plead for their lives. Only the Jews need to prove the right to exist, or at least exist as they see fit, as Jews. And only the Jews produce traitors like Norman Finkelstein, Mrs. Michael Hoffman, and the Satmar Rebbe, to name but three. It seems some of us have internalized the racial anti-Semitism that has existed from the days of Apion of Alexander to Afterdinnerjob of Iran.

"Michael," whether Hoffman or not, is clearly a racial essentialist. Let's return the American Indians to Mongolia, the Europeans to Central Asia, and all other Americans to wherever their distant ancestors hailed from. Mixed people will be hanged, drawn, and quartered, with the pieces dispersed proportionally to wherever they are from. (African Americans, for example, are roughly 75% West African, 20% European, and 5% Native American, for example). The Palestinians will probably be proportionally sent to Central Asia and East Africa. That way, there will be "piece" in the Middle East.

Michael resorts to ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments. I just stated that race and nationality are constructs, yet he attacks me as if I said they aren't. Reasonable people can debate about the best way to solve the Palestinian issue, but delegitimizing the Jewish people based on racial and religious-doctrine arguments are not reasonable ways. I am not against a two state solution, with a limited return, in theory. But I cannot negotiate with people who glorify suicide attacks on civilians, and call me the descendent of apes and pigs (though I plead guilty to the former charge). I also cannot have a reasoned debate with someone who trashes my culture and implicitly claims that only genetics determines what I can call myself and how I should live my life. Even if I am 100% percent Khazar (which I doubt; it's probably about 25% or less), my distant racial ancestors were accepted into the Jewish people and that's the way my family has lived for centuries. The Palestinians gave up their Jewish identity (assuming they ever had it). Therefore, I am a Jew and they are not. I don't give a flying fuck about the Caucuses or Eastern Europe, and they don't care much for me. My spiritual homeland is Israel, and I am willing to share it with Palestinians if they are willing to share it with me. They clearly are not.

In Europe, they told us to go back to Palestine. In Palestine, they tell us to go back to Europe. Don't be here; don't be there. Just don't be. (Paraphrase of Amos Oz, an Israeli leftist).

In response to "Yoel Mechanic", historians like Shlomo Sand specifically state Zionism devalues the Jewish religion and has long advanced absurd/false claims about an alleged "genetic relatedness" among Jewish people.
===========================================

So what? That has nothing to do with what I wrote. Leave me out of your racialist pseudo-intellectual rants.

Seems to me Yochanan completely brain raped Michael in the debate.

I would like to add the koran indicates god gave israel to the jews [Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]


EVEN if we were to grant that european jews are not the real jews, and we were to be intellectually honest, then BOTH SIDES jew and arab would have to vacate the mandate palestine since arab palestinians certainly make no claim to bein the real jews.

However, you can't talk logic to terrorists and their supporters.

>> However, you can't talk logic to terrorists and their supporters.


you can only get the air force on them. XD

Apologies to: Run For Your Life by The Beatles:

Well you'd rather see us dead, little churl
Than to be on another's land
You better fill your head, little churl
With the rantings of Shlomo Sand

Chorus:
You better run for from this blog if you can, little churl
Fill your head with Sand little churl
Catch you in another rant
That's defensive, little churl

Well you know that I'm a Jewish guy
And I was born with a Zionist mind
And I won't shorten my life
Dying just to vacate "Palestine"

Chorus

Do not act so "German"
I read everything you've said
Maybe you're determined
That you'd rather see us dead

Chorus

You'd rather see us dead, little churl
Than to be on another's land
Try "Stormfront" instead, little churl
We are tired of your spam

You better run from this blog if you can, little churl
Fill your head with Shlomo Sand little churl
Anger a Khazar man,
Feuds begin, little churl
Nu, nu, nu 4x

As a kohen i gave this article to my dna match who is the coordinator of my group this is th e answer i got.

Ashkenazim are genomically similar to many of the southern neighbors of Armenians (e.g. Kurds, Turks, Druze, Assyrians). To take Armenians as a proxy for Khazars is either naive or wilfully deceptive.

Khazars were from north of the Caucasus, while Armenians were from the south. The ancestors of Khazars were probably Iranian-language speakers for the most part (similar to Ossetians) before their culture became Turkified about 1500 years ago, while Armenians speak their own branch of the Indo-European family with no close relatives.

Mountains can be quite a barrier to gene flow and language. South Russians/eastern Ukrainians are probably much more similar genetically to Khazars than Armenians ever were. The few non-Ashkenazi R1a-Z2122 men we have found so far have ancestry from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe (eastern Ukraine and the Volga area and into western Kazakhstan). If there is a Khazar genetic trace it is probably that one yDNA line, which is about half of Ashkenazi Levites. My guess is Levites are probably only 5% of all Ashkenazim, so that suggests a hypothetical ~2.5% Khazar yDNA, unique to Ashkenazi Levites.

However, uniparental DNA markers cannot always predict autosomes well, especially among Ashkenazi lines, because of bottlenecks/drift/founder effect. I should also mention other candidate regions for A-L Z2122 have not been well tested, e.g. the Persian Empire, which supplied Levites with servants when the exile was ended and the temple was rebuilt. It's easy to see how Persian Levite-servants might have been incorporated over time as full Levites.

Wexler's paper has no grounding or support that I can see. Yiddish has two distinctly pronounced Rs, just like German. Prof. Peter Golden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Benjamin_Golden) is a top expert in Turkic languages and has found no evidence whatsoever of links between Khazar and Yiddish after studying the subject thoroughly.

I don't think it's possible to entirely dismiss the idea of some Khazar legacy in the Ashkenazi gene pool based on yDNA: but the weight of evidence is hardly enough to get Ashkenazim agitating for a new homeland near Sarotov. Areas of Switzerland have ~2.5% yDNA L, much more typical of West Asia than Europe, so perhaps only those Tyroleans males who are L should be relocated to Turkey?

B,



est

there has been a lot of “chatter” on various genealogy blogs etc. about this article. But the consensus among more sophisticated researchers and historians is that while some Jews indeed have genetic markers from central Asia, there is no strong evidence that the majority of their ancestry is “khazar”…indeed, especially on paternal lines, the middle eastern origin seems pretty solid for most Jews..

"Khazars...Palestinians...Israel Shahak...Norman Finkelstein..." - i.e. the usual personal pronouns employed by sad, frustrated Jew-haters.
Shmarya, please enter the fray and answer this "Michael". Circumcised or not, he is a card-carrying anti-Semite.

Thanks, gopjew, for your support. Mikey is off meds. He obsessed with hatred for Jews, Judaism, Zionism, Israel, and anyone who disagrees with him. I don't know if he is a communist, Fascist, Muslim extremist, Christian supercessionist, or some new hybrid. He should change his name, since it's Hebrew (mi ca El, who is like God). Of course, the Holy Qu'ran is beyond question, and Allah is all-merciful, unlike the hoaxy Bible and the bloodthirsty Yahweh. (sarcasm).

That being said I'm a zionist in principal but not in practical it's only a matter of time before terrorists manage to nuke the place or some shit jews are infinitely safer in the usa in my opinion.

even jesus said it's better to not be in israel during the last days because of all the trouble that's going to happen. maybe he's onto something.

Ed Koch once said that the best way to answer Jew-haters like Pat Buchanan is to marginalize them. The crux of his reasoning was that to debate with these bigots is to legitimize their invective. But still, I cannot but say to "Michael": Yochanan's stools are keener than thee...

I don't see any comments from any Michael. But if this is true that Michael Hoffman is trolling on FM...... I wonder why????

LaC, who still hasn'thad the 'manhood' to admit his foolish mistakes, there was plenty of someone signing himself Michael running his mouth, but it seems that Shmarya has deleted "Michael"'s vile rants. Thus it appears that Yochanan is arguing with the void. But he wasn't.

MM: Maybe I'm delusional.

Yochanan, if I rank the delusional regular commenters on FM, you are not at the top of the list :-).

I don't know why this theory would be controversial. It accounts for Middle-eastern, Mediterranean and Central Asian genetic contributions. What's the big dispute?

The problem I see is linguistic. If the linguistic drift was eastward from Rhineland, what happened to the language of the Khazari Jews? Where & when did it vanish? If it was westward, from Khazaria into Europe, why wouldn't there be a greater Turkic contribution to Yiddish? Why does Yiddish share so many similarities to German?

The genetics of a group can change much faster than their language. The Rhineland theory of Yiddish does not make sense if this genetic study is correct. But German & Yiddish are so similar, it contradicts the Khazar theory.

DNA doesn't lie. But a language speaks for itself. I'm not yet all in on the Khazar theory yet.

Most Israelis are not Ashkenazim anyhow; another blow to using this theory to delegitimize Israel.

@Yochanan
Ashkenazim number about 3 million in Israel. Sephardic Israelis number approximately 2.7 million.

What about Mizrachi Israelis? Where do you get your statistics? What about people of mixed heritage? (Not that country of origin or minhag matters to me; just curious).

Mizrachi are included in the generic 2.7 million "Sephardic" category.
See Central Bureau of Statistics (Ha-Lishka Ha-Merkazit Le-Statistika).
By the way, the approximately 1 million Jewish emigrants from the former Soviet Union re-instated the dominant numerical status of the Ashkenazim in Israel. It is not likely to change back any time soon given the high birth-rate in the Ashkenazic Charedi community.

Still Waiting for a scientific study to prove that the somehow there is no scientific way for the nazis to have killed 6,000,000 Jews in just six years,

Me, too.

I got fired by two RDBMS different vendors - Oracle, and Sybase - and harassed by ~bzs for, not even asking that question, but merely asking if it was appropriate to attack the reputation and employment of another person, whom *had* asked that question.

Tarred as a you-know-what - spawned lawsuits, restraining orders, hatred between brothers, betrayals by childhood friends, and much, much more. All good fun - and quite educational.

Coming up on the 20 year anniversary in a few weeks.

Just sayan'.

My father always told me that five Hungarian Jews could live off just ONE Polish Jew!

LOL, complete BS. Real Jews came from Egypt. They are of Arab descent.

These fake Jews the bible warned us about are of European Decent and or Turkish Decent. They are not "Jews" and they are not Semitic.

This has long been known, but as can be seen from the hysterical reaction and pure nonsense rejection by many commneters here, the problem is simply the subjects refuse to believe it, because it makes a mockery of their delusions about chosenness.

Silly monkeys, if nobody but yourselves believes your twaddle what is the point? Being an "Ethnic Jew" is kind of like being a warrior in a game of Dungeons and Dragons or maybe a charcater in Star Trek.

The problem is that the Zionazi settlers in the West Bank will stay fanatically claim that they are returning to their ancestoral homeland. Likewise Christian fundamentalists will still believe that backing Israeli settler activity in the West Bank is supporting the whole prophecy of the ancient Israelis returning to their homeland.

I was wondering does anybody have examples of when Netanyahu have used the claim that modern Isrealis have direct ancestory with the ancient Israelites to justify settlement building over the whole of Jerusalem and the West Bank.

What a bunch of crap. It doesn't make any sense historically. The Khazar's declined in the 1300's and yet the Jewish increase in Europe was from the 16th-20th century. Why did it take 300 years for this increase to start to happen.

And from a birth stand point to go from 50,000 to 8 million over 400 years does not require incredible birth rates. All it requires is an average birth rate of around 2.9 which over 16-18 generations compounds over itself and leads to these numbers. I did it on Excel and the numbers work and if our neighbors had slightly birth rates of 2.4. We would have a 10 fold increase. There was no pill in those days that the Orthodox Rabbis are so lenient on compared to other religions so unlike today when Jewish women have lower birth rates then their neighbors it is very possible back then we had higher birth rates despite the persecution which was a small difference but enough that over time it made a big difference.

You confuse the rate of live births with the survival rate of those babies – which was much lower 500 years ago than today. And there were no fertility treatments and other interventionist medicine to increase the number of births and keep people sexually active when they otherwise might not have been.

In other words, you have to know history, the history of science and the history of medicine to understand why your argument fails.

But it does fail – spectacularly – which why no scientist opposing him makes it.

It seems as though a lot of people are desperate to cling on to feeble claims that they have the divine right to genocide. Israel controls the water to the west bank. Israel has shut off Palestine's water for eight moths at a time several times since the mid 1990's. Who are the Nazi's today? The elite AshkeNAZI are. The truth is self evident. All that's keeping the people who support Israel from realizing they are going to hell, is belief in a book's that their own ancestors adulterated for the material benefit of their elite descendants. Your ancestors sold you out (your souls) for the meterial benefit of the elite! Somewhere in history beetween Egypt and Judea you leaders seem to have converted to worshiping Ba'al Zebub. The beLIEvers in and supporters of Israel on the land of Palestine are the SACRIFICE in this satanic ritual. Sadly, the material benefactors will pay eternally with their souls, and the rest of humainty has to suffer through the de-evolution of consiousness as we struggle to understand how people who were gassed in a dungeon turn around, rape the land from innocent people (Palestine) and shut their water off with the obvious intention of GENOCIDE?

The genetic study lays it out. Talk all you like, but there it is.

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