Haredim Advocate Banning Math

"'EUCLID - Not, it's not the name of a medicine. It's the Greek mathematics that (the Zionists want) your son to learn instead of learning Mishnayos.' It proceeds to detail how it is important for your children to learn good character, yiras Shamayim and Torah, rather than the foreign wisdom that the government wants them to study, etc."

The above poster is a campaign ad for Untied Torah Judaism, the mainstream Ashkenazi haredi political party. Its spiritual leader is haredi leader Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteinman. Rabbi Natan Slifkin explains what it says:

For those who can't make out the Hebrew words in the poster [above], the ad says "EUCLID - Not, it's not the name of a medicine. It's the Greek mathematics that (the Zionists want) your son to learn instead of learning Mishnayos." It proceeds to detail how it is important for your children to learn good character, yiras Shamayim and Torah, rather than the foreign wisdom that the government wants them to study, etc.

Now, one question that immediately springs to mind is why Mishnayos and mathematics are presented as an either/or. Nobody is saying that charedim should not learn Mishnayos at all; rather, they are saying that charedim should learn mathematics as well as Mishnayos. Which many Orthodox Jews, in Israel and abroad, manage perfectly well. And they seem to do pretty well at achieving good character and yiras Shamayim, too.

But there's more.

A colleague of Slifkin's, Leor Jacobi, noted that the very mathematics haredim now want banned was translated into Hebrew by Rabbi Baruch of Shklov who was a disciple of the GRA, the Gaon of Vilna. According to Baruch of Shklov, the translation was made at personal request of the GRA. Here's the title page:

Slifkin notes that in the book's introduction, Baruch of Shklov writes that the Gra told him that “according to the measure of what a person lacks in general wisdom, he will lack a hundredfold when it comes to Torah wisdom, because the Torah and general wisdom are closely linked together.”

In the GRA's day, keeping a person ignorant was not necessary to keep them fervently Orthodox, but that, I think, is much less true today. That is not because today's secular knowledge is bad – it isn't, and it's much more accurate and true than the secular knowledge the GRA was talking about.

And that is what the trouble is for haredim.

Sane, honest, open people who study the scientific evidence rapidly conclude that much of the Torah's account of creation and history (at least from Genesis through the book of Joshua) is false or unsupported by the scientific evidence we have, from DNA anaylsis, geology, astronomy, physics and many other areas of science.

In other words, math, science and other secular knowledge was not a real threat to the cult of fervent Orthodoxy in the late 18th century, but it is now.

And therefore haredi rabbis ban that secular knowledge today, making the judgement that an ignorant hasid or haredi is much more likely to remain in the haredi-hasidic camp than a secularly educated hasid or haredi would.

The problem – besides the impact of the ban of haredi job prospects, etc. – is that the ban is in place to enforce beliefs that are, when taken literally, false.

In other words, what haredi leaders have done is turned the Torah from what could be viewed as allegory to a fundamentalist lie, and then they banned the tools haredim need to uncover it. They opted to run a  cult rather than risk confrinting the truth.

And if today's High Court ban on haredi benefits is extended to haredi yeshivas and schools that continue to refuse to teach math, science and other core subjects (and if that ban is enforced and sticks), haredi leaders will have little choice. They will either have to try to move their communites outside Israel, or they will have to learn to adapt to actual reality.

And that is why they are so very afraid.

[Hat Tip: Yochanan Lavie.]

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Comments

[jancsibacsi]

Change by theese hareidim will never come only if there is a change of attitude by the government of israel by not financing their anti social lifestyle wiil change come, dont give them money they will fall over themselfs to change money is their g-d .

[John Nagle, Silicon Valley, CA]

This is child abuse.

[Shmarya]

This is child abuse.

Posted by: John Nagle, Silicon Valley, CA | January 15, 2013 at 05:16 PM

In many countries and jurisdictions, it is.

[Brian]

Funny- if the Haredim start banning Math then:

- They won't know how to calculate shabbos and yom-tov times
- They won't be able to calculate phases of the moon, so the lunar calendar would go out of whack with the solar calendar
- They won't be able to have any more of their beloved gematria (perhaps this is a good thing...)
- They won't be able to count the omer!

The list goes on. Not only is math integral to normal life, basic numeracy is integral to Judaism.

Idiots.

[David]

This is surely a violation of the UN Declaration of the Rights of the Child?

http://www.un.org/cyberschoolbus/humanrights/resources/plainchild.asp

7 You have the right to go to school for free, to play, and to have an equal chance to develop yourself and to learn to be responsible and useful.

Your parents have special responsibilities for your education and guidance.

[Fleishike Kishke]

The Haredi Community has gone beyond the tipping point. There is no way help. One can only look away, or stare in fascination at their accelerating demise. The world is better for it.

[Moshe]

it is important for your children to learn good character

I can't believe that the haredim are actually advocating this trait. There must be a printing error.

[David]

it is important for your children to learn good character

I can't believe that the haredim are actually advocating this trait. There must be a printing error.

Posted by: Moshe | January 15, 2013 at 05:43 PM

Their definition of "good character", not ours. For a lot of them their definition would include a willingness to lie, cheat, steal etc..

[ruthie]

i agree this is child abuse.
how do they expect to support themselves one day?
silly question, i know.

[jancsibacsi]

I also think they should bann themself from civilation .

[jancsibacsi]

meant to write civilization.

[CHAMOR BLI DAAS]

Euclid is cited by the Tosafos Yom Tov on Kilayim

[Lamed Vovnik]

Everyone knows that the Vilna Goan was an apikorous (another Greek philosopher) compared to the righteous and learned haredim leaders of today.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Now, this is one chumra I can get behind. I stink at math!

[Pirik]

In many countries and jurisdictions, it is.

Posted by: Shmarya | January 15, 2013 at 05:19 PM

Shmarya, don't you wish you had learned some math in school, so that you could have a real source of income instead of begging us for pennies on this site?

[ah-pee-chorus]

shmarya, youre 100% right. slifkin is too.

also, if theres one thing charedim HAVE taught us, its that learning torah and mishnayos exclusively does NOT produce people with good character.

[Shlomo1]

I believe what Chareidim are really worried about is not so much scientific knowledge per se but rather secular culture itself which can be quite beguiling especially to someone that has led such a cloistered life. They are really threatened about a weakening of their concept of Daas Torah (a foreign concept to real Judaism akin to Papal infallibility) and it's authority in their communities if people realise that there is a real world outside. They basically don't won't them to be in the workplace talk to other people with other viewpoints etc. At the same time they violate the precept of teaching their children a livelihood so they won't end up doing fraud or being a thief.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

if they got to be idiots, let them do it all the way, and drive themselves into oblivion!

[A. Nuran]

Holy shit. This is so far beyond crazy they'll have to come up with whole new fields of math to measure and calculate the insanity

[Rocky]

So, when will the "No Child Left Behind Law" apply to Haredi yeshivas in the US? How many additional functional illiterates can Rockland County, Orange County, the City of New York, New York state and the Federal government afford to support each year?

[A Yid]

>>> "EUCLID - Not, it's not the name of a medicine. It's the Greek mathematics that (the Zionists want) your son to learn instead of learning Mishnayos."<<<
Shmaryah
The correct translation is the "Greek mathematician"

[David]

It's bad enough as it is allowing Charedi kids to graduate from their "schools" as functional illiterates but this is REALLY over the top. Any parent that allows their kid not to be taught even the basic level math they get taught now should have the child removed from their custody - as would happen in most Western countries if a parent refuses to allow their child to be educated.

[dd]

@ruthie,

haredim do not support themselves . they don't work, they schnorr. most of them steal, fraud or do things that nobody will do , like dealing drugs to ' make a living'. haredim cannot function in society to work like everybody else .
they have no choice, they are haredi .

[Rocky]

Posted by: David | January 15, 2013 at 09:41 PM

"as would happen in most Western countries if a parent refuses to allow their child to be educated."

Child removal would not happen in the state of New York where under prior court decisions, the State cannot regulate the curriculums of religious schools affiliated with a church, synagogue or mosque. I actually talked to a woman in the State office in Albany that keeps tabs on such schools.

So the Yeshiva that Chaim Levin attended can continue to turn out functional illiterates, as long as the parents decide to send their children there. Chaim's story was featured on this web site in 2012. It is a case of buyer beware.

[Michael from Lakewood]

So, when will the "No Child Left Behind Law" apply to Haredi yeshivas in the US? How many additional functional illiterates can Rockland County, Orange County, the City of New York, New York state and the Federal government afford to support each year?

Posted by: Rocky | January 15, 2013 at 09:23 PM

Hey! You forgot Lakewood!

[Finster Baby]

@Rocky - This has absolutely nothing to do with homophobia.
Was this just some way for you to bash Chaim Levin once again for being gay despite his haredi education? I don't get the blatant hatred of some people - just leave it alone.

[Shlomo1]

Also frightening that this is the official campaign poster of UTJ i.e. this is mainstream Chareidi opinion and that they chose maths of all subjects to demonize not really controversial unlike science evolution philosophy art or any other of the myriad subjects they could have used as an example. So it will soon be Assur to work at all if not already

[Ken]

Hah. A classmate from Chofetz Chaim (where yes, we studied geometry) reminds me that the Telshe Yeshiva in Ohio is located on Euclid Ave.

[andre]

They won't be able to tithe their income from begging

[PulpitRabbi]

This reminds me of the time I was in an Israeli Haredi yeshiva and we were studying Sukkah. On 8a there is some geometry, and I had some question about the geometry according to one of the commentaries. Turns out no one in that large yeshiva was prepared to take that challenge on, 'cause they didn't know math or geometry.

Years later, at a conference dealing with a halakhic issue in the construction of eruvs, two thirds of the fellows, all rabbis responsible for eruvs, had such a weak grasp of geometry that any day, they could accidentally allow Shabbat desecration (ok, only once a week). The lecturer, some major rabbi with a massive beard, suddenly had to teach pythagoras to the crowd.

Then again, in today's climate, even the Gaon of Vilna couldn't say everything he wanted, party line is more important. Oy vey...

[Sholom]

Ahhh, yes. Sukkah 8a... one of the rare moments during my Yehiva life when I was not entirely bored with the study material.

I memorized Mishnayos as a child. Now I study mathematics. Guess which one is more useful to me in terms of Parnoso.

[David]

OK, every time I hear something outrageous like this I say something to the effect of "just when you think they can't get any more insane they manage to do so".

Now they want to ban math.

How much further is it actually possible for their insanity to go?

They are even outdoing the Taliban (by far!).

Terrorism is the logical next step for them. Fortunately they are too uneducated to know how anything works and won't be able to do anything unless they pay some Arabs to do it for them (which, unfortunately, I see as likely).

[Runner1983]

If the haredi culture was in fact so valid, parents could teach the customs, practices and values of this culture without worrying about encroachment of the secular world. Because the Haredim need to be "protected" from the secular world, one really needs to question how valid the haredi culture is.

The banning of math really shows how far the haredi cult has moved beyond the ridiculous. This is in fact child abuse. These children have no chance of functioning in the real world. All this is designed to do is to prevent anyone from leaving. This has absolutely nothing to do with the practice of religion. It has everything to do with maintaining the power of the rabbis who run this cult. This is not Judaism, but something else.

[seymour]

I guess the rishonim and the people who wrote the Talmud where not frum according to these people

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

I suggest that instead of learning Euclid, our yeshiva talmidim learn the Gra's Ayil Meshulash.

[Rocky]

Michael from Lakewood: Sorry I forgot Lakewood.

Finster baby: My comments had nothing to do with Chaim Levin's sexual orientation. Perhaps your English comprehension is not very good.

I was referring to the fact that he had been cheated out of a good education. Yes, I know that Chaim is gay and I have read all of his postings on his blog. Aside from Failed Messiah, his blog gives some of the best insights into the US Haredi community that I have come across. A mind is a terrible thing to waste, even if someone is gay and Haredi.

[Yeshiva Bachur]

Yahadus Hatorah is upset that students learn only Euclidean Geometry: they are so advanced that they should be learning non-Euclidean geometry with Euclidean geometry being just a subset of the same. It is not because that they have anything against Euclidean geometry, it is a matter of Kavod Hatorah for Yeshiva Bachurim.

[Luke]

"Child removal would not happen in the state of New York where under prior court decisions, the State cannot regulate the curriculums of religious schools affiliated with a church, synagogue or mosque. I actually talked to a woman in the State office in Albany that keeps tabs on such schools."

Rocky:

As an educator I have personally witnessed this. So true and so unbelievable. Go to many of the hasidic schools in Monsey/Ramapo and not only is there no secular education, the facilities are one step above a tenement. All this and they get state money for books, nurses and special education. It is disgraceful that New York State allows this situation and actually helps fund it continuance.

The parents are extorted by the schools' exorbitant tuition fees while their children languish idly during long ten hour days, with little or no breaks, doing nothing more than occasionally focusing on a Torah. Most teachers are untrained let alone not licensed. Most of the time the students are left in classrooms unattended and to their own designs. It is sad and sinful. No physical activity (sports, etc.) is permitted so the students not only have a starved minds but unhealthy bodies as well.

The most disturbing aspect of all of this is the absolute indoctrination that is force fed the children that the goyim and certain other Jews are evil and need to be avoided at all costs. All this explains so much of what you see when interacting in either the great Monsey or NS neighborhoods.

The whole adventure I had within that system of schools completely changed my outlook forever. I just wish the state would involve itself for the sake of the children. In my opinion, it IS abuse. Sad. Luke.

[RebMendel]

There are plenty of yellow ones to do 'math.' the only math yidden need to know is how to give back enough change from a dolar so that the goyim do not complain to the govrnment.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Luke, what you write tugs at my heart. When I once visited a Chabad school in eastern Europe, where they were required by law to include minimum of state-required subjects, I met with one of the teachers of the secular materials. She was furious at how Chabad was depriving the children of a decent education. "These little girls study religion from 8am to 2pm," she said, "and then they come to me for all other subjects when they are exhausted and cannot pay attention."
what were those subjects? just math and reading and writing (with the state textbooks covered in stickers to obscure any offending pictures). "just that? what about science?" I asked.
she laughed cynically. "'they' don't believe science is relevant," pointing at the ubiquitous poster of MMS. "these girls will all grow up to get married by the time they turn 17, so they don't see any point in teaching it."
just sickening. it is complete child abuse.

[Sarek]

("Wonderful World", written by Sam Cooke, Lou Adler, Herb Alpert. Hit versions by Sam Cooke, Herman's Hermits. Sorry, didn't use Art Garfunkle's additional verse)

Don’t need to know history
Don’t need to know biology
I don’t need to read a science book
When I davened, I really shook

But I know what all the ravs say
And I know I’ll not go astray
Cause the Torah is all I need

Don’t need to know geography
Don’t need trigonometry
Don’t need any algebra
Calculating sunset is such a chore.

I’m not sure if one and one is two
But thank God I was born a Jew
And Torah is all I need

The yeshiva claims that we are all students
And I sure agree
Cause by davening daily over Talmud
I can dodge the army

Don’t need to know history
Don’t need to know biology
I don’t need to read a science book
When I davened, I really shook

But I know what all the ravs say
And I know I’ll not go astray
Cause the Torah is all I need

[mendel]

Tanya -chapter VIII

... likewise, one who studies the sciences of the nations of the world, it is considered in the category of idle talk as far as the sin of neglecting Torah is concerned, as explained in hilchos Talmud Torah. Furthermore, the impurity deriving from the science of the nations is worse than the impurity from idle talk. [The latter] pollutes only the middos - which derive from the element of the holy ruach that is in the G-dly soul - with the impurity of kelipas noga that is in the idle talk, which derives from the element of the evil ruach of this kelipa in his animal soul, as explained above.

But it does not pollute the intellectual faculties of Chabad in his soul, for it is [merely] words of foolishness and ignorance that even fools and ignoramuses can speak the same.

Not so in the case of the science of the nations where one enclothes and pollutes the intellectual faculties of Chabad that are in one's G-dly soul with the impurity of kelipas noga that is in these wisdoms ...

... you come to the [apparently] straightforward conclusion that the only solution for you to make a living is none other than to learn ... English, then ... chemistry etc. and [only] then you will be able to have complete trust in G-d that you'll be able to make a living ...

I don't know who put this astonishing and upsetting idea into your mind, and why you don't see what's involved in this. If you will listen to my opinion and advice, you should leave behind all thoughts about your future career and settle down to study continuously and diligently, and exclusively limudei kodesh - nigleh and Chassidus for at least three or four more years. I am sure that if you will do this, you will be able to earn a living, with livelihood both material and spiritual [i.e. spreading Yiddishkeit]

Igros Kodesh XIII p. 256-8
cut and pasted my Mendel

[Luke]

Eli:

Thank you for sharing. Your experience is exactly, exactly what it is like here as well. It pains me for the children and ANGERS me against the establishment. I finally stopped going into the schools as it is too heart breaking. The schools should be criminally charged as they only exist to be money makers for a few and the state officials should be shamed for being spineless . Sad. Luke

[Sarek]

(decided to add the Art Garfunkel verse since it's apropos)

We are stuck in the Middle Ages
Just read the Talmud and we turn the pages
Don’t know nothin’ ‘bout the outside world
Just know to let my peyos curl.

[jancsibacsi]

mendel--Everyone has to decide for himself what path in life he should go,no one should have a say in someones life when it comes to making a living for himself if the eprson likes to learn math and science you should not dictate to him that he should only learn toreh that is tottalitarian dictatorail ,i see that alot of religious people love to dominate others that they should live a life like they live it is pure evil to be dictatorial,it comes down to making a good living at what you do and not relying on others good will to sustain you like tragecally alot of hassidim do schnoring and relying on government handoputs it is stupid beyong words to do that.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Very good, Sarek.

[mendel]

Can parents opt out of lessons that pollute their child's mind?

Parker is contesting the charge. Why? After his arraignment, he stated, "I'm just trying to be a good dad." During a May 11 appearance on the FOX News Channel's "The O'Reilly Factor," Parker expanded on this statement, saying that he wanted his son "to play on the swing set and make mud pies. I don't want him thinking about same-sex unions in kindergarten."

Parker's attorney, Jeffrey Denner, points to a larger issue — "the role of family and what kind of encroachments government can make into children's and people's lives."

Otherwise stated, schools are usurping the parental role of teaching personal values to children. They are not acting as educators but as guardians, "in loco parentis" (in the place of a parent). Some schools clearly consider this function to be their right, even over parental objections. Thus, Estabrook defends its "right" to teach Parker's son to accept same-sex marriages.

Denner hopes to resolve the conflict before trial but he also intends to file a civil suit in federal court against the town of Lexington, the school system and its officials.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165253,00.html#ixzz2IAGzusNs

[Sholom]

Yeshiva bachur,
Hahahaha. Halevai!

For the record, there's a crater on the moon named 'Rabbi Levi'. Anybody wanna guess why?

The Ralbag was a mathematician.

[rebeljew]

How does one learn mishnayos in Eruvin or Kilayim (arugos anyone?) or Kinim without math? How do you learn sukkos? What about Shabbos (schar Hapinos, measuring squares against circles), and how about baba metzia (kav b'arba amos)?

This pashkevil has to be a satire. That is my limud zechus.

[Runner1983]

Hey Mendel, have you ever used your own common sense and critical judgment to make your own decisions about how to live your life, instead of following the proclamations and fatwas of some haredi
rabbi who is accountable to no one? It seems to me that you and your co-religionists are more interested in the following the details of the Torah, rather that take a broader view of what G-d really wants you to do with you life. I believe that G-d gave all of us a great intellect, which we should use to understand the world around us, through invention and discovery, and leave it a better place. What is your view of what G-d wants us to do?

[mendel]

Runner1983
My view is to follow the directives of the Moshe, of our generation the Lubavitcher Rebbe, shlita.
Jews among other things are spiritual athletes, and as such, it is in their best interest to follow their "spiritual coach" if they are going to get to the "goal line" of becoming the best servant of G-d they can.
"Free thinking" amounts to becoming a rogue Jew, mutatis mutandis, no less than it would be for a football player on a football field--only havoc comes from it for oneself and his fellow teammates.

[rebeljew]

Mendel

Does that include picking a random page in the playbook and discerning the answer of the coach to a current question after he has long since left? Does that include declaring the coach commissioner after he dies?

[rebeljew]

Mendel

Does that include saying that the coach is "G-dliness in the body of a human"? (keeping in mind that "G-dliness" is the very essence of G-d who is all one substance.) That sounds more like a G-d than a coach or Moshe Rabbeinu. In fact, Moshe is not the first parallel that comes to mind. It sounds more like a testament of a different flavor.

[mendel]

Rebeljew
It sounds more like a testament of a different flavor.
Really? Your comment betrays your ignorence:
Based on the teachings of Rabbi Isaac Luria, the Baal Shem Tov and the Ohr ha-Chaim, Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi taught in the name of the Zohar that "He who breathed life into man, breathed from Himself." Therefore one's soul comes from the essence of God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzadik

According to kabbalah, a tzadiki, because they have completely nullified themselves and their desires to what God wants, their Godly soul (which like every Godly soul is part of God) is revealed within them more than other people who have not completely nullified themselves to God. This concept is based upon many Jewish sources. Here are some:

The Zohar: "Et pnei Ha'adon YHWH - do Rashbi" (Lit., "The Countenance of the Lord YHWH - this is [a reference to] Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai.")
In 1951 the seventh Rebbe of Chabad, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson made a similar statement[15] regarding the practice by Hasidim to have a Rebbe act as an intermediary with God on their behalf. He explained, "The Rebbe is completely connected with his Hasidim, not like two separate things that connect; rather, they become completely one. And the Rebbe is not an intermediary which separates, but one that connects. Therefore by a Hassid, he with the Rebbe with God are all one ... Hence, it is not possible to ask any questions about [how it is possible to turn to the Rebbe as] an intermediary [for the purpose of asking him to pray to Hashem on one’s behalf], since this is Atzmus uMehus [God's Essence] itself as it put itself in a body. This is similar to the statement of the Zohar,[16] 'Whose is the face of the Master [God]? This is the Rashbi.'."

[Shuey]

B"H

Mendel, while it is certainly commendable to reach a point where one has completely nullified himself to HaKadosh Baruch Hu, and such a person is sure to merit a great life in Olam HaBa for his near-perfect Emunah, I would like to put forward that there may be a fundamental disconnect between the intent of the study of science and how some view it in the its relation to the true spirituality of man.

Keep in mind, the Brias HaOlam was done in the name of Elokim, Hashem shel Din. As such, it is obvious that the universe was created with such a character that nature is a complex, coordinated system, composed of many functions which of course are regulated through the various Forces, many of which you are surely familiar with through your study of Tanya and works such as Derech Hashem.

Through the study of science, one can marvel at the greatness of the whole of creation, the world which Hashem created for us. Just as we are the fusing of the physical and the spiritual, so too is the universe around us to varying degrees. Imagine the levels of intimacy to Hashem one could achieve through understanding both Torah and natural science together! Such is the amazing nature of his works that the workings of the simple single-celled creature are as complex and detailed as the many billions of billions of stars and galaxies in our sky above us.

Understanding biological sciences, and the fact that the chemistry and biological processes which sustain physical life are so fragile and tenuous, makes every time one says Asher Yatzar even more poignant: if even one molecule of a protein chain thousands of atoms long is formed incorrectly, life becomes impossible! Such is the beauty of Hashem's creation!

That was just a bit of food for thought as to why we should consider that physical science may be better for us than we think--if we use it to become closer to Hashem rather than apart.

All the best in your continued studies and life,
--Shuey

[Runner1983]

Mendel, I feel very sorry for you. You live in a world of darkness and what is worse, you force your children to live in a world of darkness. This is an unforgivable sin. How dare you call yourselves Jews.