« Mordechai Ben David, Choir, Visit Rubashkin In Prison, Sing For Him In Honor Of Daughter's Wedding | Main | Video: Britain's Most Senior Haredi Rabbi Tells A Child Sex Abuse Victim It Is Forbidden To Report His Molester To Police »

January 29, 2013

Draft-Dodgers or Deserters?

Inside of haredi yeshiva full of students"…If haredim really believe that Torah study provides protection that is greatest in its immediate locale, then why did the Grodno yeshivah relocate from Ashdod, which needed protection [from missile strikes], to Bet Shemesh, which did not? And why did other yeshivos move from Ashdod and Netivot to Bnei Brak? If the haredi community’s excuse for not serving the military is that they provide metaphysical protection, then why can’t they provide it where it’s actually needed? The yeshivos should have relocated from Bnei Brak and Jerusalem to the South, not the other way around!…"

Inside of haredi yeshiva full of students

Rabbi Natan Slifkin destroys haredi claims that their Torah study protects Israel from harm, pointing out that haredi yeshivas ran away from danger zones while Zionist Orthodox yeshivas ran toward them:

…If haredim really believe that Torah study provides protection that is greatest in its immediate locale, then why did the Grodno yeshivah relocate from Ashdod, which needed protection [from missile strikes], to Bet Shemesh, which did not? And why did other yeshivos move from Ashdod and Netivot to Bnei Brak? If the haredi community’s excuse for not serving the military is that they provide metaphysical protection, then why can’t they provide it where it’s actually needed? The yeshivos should have relocated from Bnei Brak and Jerusalem to the South, not the other way around!…

The religious-Zionist hesder yeshivot of Sderot and Netivot practiced what they preach and stayed in Sderot and Netivot during the war, boosting morale and providing spiritual support to the residents. They were joined by the hesder yeshivah of Kiryat Gat, which temporarily relocated to Sderot to provide support during the war. Perhaps putting their lives on the line to serve in the IDF helps these young men appreciate what it means to put oneself out on behalf of the nation, and to demonstrate such care with their Torah learning. That is the kind of Torah student that the nation needs.

Read it all here.

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

As an answer to your rhetorical question, I can offer two answers...

1) The hareidim are cowards.

2) The hareidim are self-centered, have no patriotism (whether in the U.S., U.K, or Israel), and have no gratitude for the comfortable existance offered to them by their host state.

From the article: And there are certainly many more statements in the Talmud about the importance of working for a living, which are apparently not considered binding!

Of course not. They only listen to those authorities who tell them what they want to hear. The Rambam is one of our most important authorities, and we have to obey him in all matters, until he tells us not to swing chickens over our heads - then, all of a sudden, "We don't hold by him!"

R. Wisler--You took the words right out of my mouth,you are describing them perfectly,they have no idea how good they have it they have their cake and eat it too others fight and die for them and they are nothing but trouble makers like 2 year old throwing tantrums,they dont have to struggle like other normal gratefull human beings once they taste hardship they will wake up to reality otherwise they are doomed.

Re Wisler: 1 and 2...cowardly ingrates who attack little girls and women and protect sexual predators in their midst. With the emergence of Lapid their days are numbered.

I can not believe how unintelligent people are. The idea that one has to learn torah in the place were the danger exists is absurd. Torah protects us wherever we are, not just in the place of danger. We do have an obligation to protect ourselves from danger and that is why the yeshivos moved to safer locations.
It is also absurd to say "look even though people are learning there are still people that are getting killed etc. G-d has many reasons why he does things, there is no absolute guarantee that no one will be injured just because people are learning. Just like there is no guarantee of safety just because the IDF is stationed in any given location.

This points to a deep problem in Chareidi philosophy. Their culture revolves around the "we don't have to work, our learning is the real protection for the State" but they don't actually believe it. No wonder they're so irritable.

FormerStudent-I dont understand yore absurdity in bringing in here a supernatural being called god, all theese things have nothing to do with a highter up being in the sky it has to do with down to earth chances ,you should know it better then that,dos is all a mind game between humans make beleive.

Meant to write god is a mind game its a no brainer.

Former Student, as Rabbi Slifkin points out, it is clear from Chazal that the protective effect of Torah learning is greatest in the location that the learning is taking place. Your severah is simply rationalizing cowardice, hypocrisy and ameratzus. Frankly, it is probably just as well that the "yeshivas" in question relocated. The ameratzus, not to mention the outright heresy, being "learned" there would probably attract missiles, not repel them.

FormerStudent - what is the distance from a yeshiva that is protected by the torah's forcefield? That will help Israel calculate where these centers of learning need to be placed for maximum protection.

And if you say that G-d has many reasons why he does things, there is no absolute guarantee that no one will be injured just because people are learning. Just like there is no guarantee of safety just because the IDF is stationed in any given location. then how do we know who was saved by torah study and who was saved by God due to his innate generosity? And if you can't tell me that, then how do you know that torah study saves anyone?

FormerStudent - what is the distance from a yeshiva that is protected by the torah's forcefield?

Is there an inverse square law that covers it?

During the Holocaust, torahs could not even protect themselves, let alone people. In some cases, the Nazis rounded up Jews in small towns and forced them into the local synagogue, which was then locked and set on fire. The Jews and their torahs went up in flames together. God was no where to be found. I doubt that the Haredi understand that they are hastening the day when Jewish communities will be destroyed in Israel.

Who says that Ashdod needed more protection?
There are many more yeshivas in Beni Braq,
and possibly even Bet Shemesh. Did any rockets
land the latter two places? Doesn't that show
the efficacy of the protection the haradim provide?

Eric,
Geographically, Bnei Braq and Bet Shemesh are about 200 times less likely to be hit by rockets from the Gaza Strip than Ashdod. Thus, your weak argument crumbles into nothingness.

2 Comments:

1) The greatest sage before the Second World War was the Chafetz Chayim, who died in 1933. His followers believed he had Ru'ach HaKodesh, he could foresee the future. Yet in 1933, the year that Hitler rose to power, he did not warn Jews of the coming Holocaust.

2) Ilan Ramon, the Israeli astronaut who was killed in the Columbia explosion in 2003, carried a historic Sefer Torah with him. Tragically, it did not save him.

The Haredi plan in a nutshell is to do what the Zionists themselves did. Legally acquire a parcel of land and build a national movement around it.

Basically, they set up Haredi-only areas where no non-Haredi would date venture, and vehement harass anyone passing through their deaignated are who doesn't conform to the stringency of the day, whatever that may happen to be. Create facts on the ground that the Haredi-controlled area is solely for Haredim because anyone with half a brain steers clear of these barbarians as a matter of course. Once the perimeter is established, they plan to make an appeal to the international community that their way of life is being threatened by the Zionists, who they say aren't really Jews anyway. True Toyreh Jews are the rightful owners of the land. After the international appeal takes place in which black hatted impostors cry crocodile tears to the media and the UN, they will win a form of support to build their own totalitarian state of bloodsucking Jewhaters.

Haredim are THE ENEMY of Hashem and of truth. Their goal is to enslave, control, or kill every Jew that doesn't bow to a shitstain black hat by virtue of our noncompliance with their arbitrary stringencies. The Haredim themselves have been kept stupid and easy to control, as every filthy little gadol has the life of his underlings in the palm of his hand.

There is nothing left to discuss with the Haredim.

Eric--Doesn't that show
the efficacy of the protection the haradim provide?
What it shows more then anything else is youre robot like mindless thinking,you are the ultimate fool,and youre happy being one thats what it shows ,you have the gullibility of a goilem.

Let the state finance long term kollel for the elite students (1 - 2%) of charedi adults. The rest should either work or pay for it on their own or through tzedaka contributions.

can not believe how unintelligent people are. The idea that one has to learn torah in the place were the danger exists is absurd. Torah protects us wherever we are, not just in the place of danger. We do have an obligation to protect ourselves from danger and that is why the yeshivos moved to safer locations.
posted by FormerStudent

if there is an obligation not to rely on torahs protective effect and instead to take steps to protect ones self that is quite a powerful admission. it is acknowledging that in times of danger there are steps which are MORE EFFECTIVE than learning. yet soldiers and the armed forces do not retreat and rely on alternative methods of defending lives and israel, they head RIGHT TO the points of conflict, even risking their lives to do so. the army doesnt have a protocol whereby when bombs and bullets start flying they remove soldiers from the front line and send them to yeshivas to learn. why? because they truly believe that what theyre doing i.e. fighting back, provides the best protection possible.
charedi yeshiva parasites do NOT really believe in the metaphysical benefits of learning which is why they close up shop when at risk and suspend their learning in order to rely on the physical benefit of being outside the expected landing radius of actual missiles and rockets.
BOTH charedim and chilonim/hesder know that the physical forms of defense are more protective than the metaphysical bullshit. they both show it by their actions. the difference is that non charedim dont pretend otherwise while charedim do. and non-charedim feel an obligation to partake and sacrifice for what they believe, charedim do not.
try your silly spin on your fellow charedi fraudsters, it wont work here.

that is why the yeshivos moved to safer locations.


what makes one location safer than another? an anlysis of the PHYSICAL geographical realities. these are YOUR words. moving out of range of actual projectiles provides some level of increased safety. but if thats true,and you have admitted it is, then an even better method of increasing safety is to stop the firing of these weapons altogether. and since torah learning is not effective enough for the charedim to rely on just to alter the paths of these rockets, then surely it isnt the most effective means of destroying the launchers and killing those that fire them.

so by the torahs commandment to do whatevers necessary to be free from danger, yeshiva boys are halachically required to take those steps which would actually remove the danger. but they dont. the cowards instead move to a safer place and rely on others to do the torahs bidding for them.

Even taking it as a given that Torah study offers protection (and that point is up for debate), where is it written that the students in question must be young men? Why not open the yeshivas to retirees, who are too old to work or serve in the army, and make the younger generation (who still have young children to support) join the army and get a job?

Does Israel want to be a Jewish Saudi Arabia? Then, by all means, it should listen to the Hareidim. Saudi Arabia is populated with the Muslim equivalent of hareidi yeshiva students. They fill up their heads with religious knowledge rather than practical knowledge, and their country lags behind others in science and some other areas because of it. So they turn to the West and Japan in order to get things done. When the religious people open up their eyes to the secular world, they might actually learn something.

Here in Boston, we have only one small kollel, and we haven't had a missile attack in recent memory.

The only possible conclusion is that even a small amount of Torah study by a few scholars will keep a municipality safe from danger.

And why did Moshe make Gad and Reuven cross ahead of the Israelites. They should have all learned their way into the land.

Ok, they will "serve" in their own special unit, after they have completed their "service" they will go right back to the yeshiva. Learning how to kill a fellow human being is not exactly a marketable skill.

And why did Moshe make Gad and Reuven cross ahead of the Israelites. They should have all learned their way into the land.

Posted by: rebeljew | January 30, 2013 at 08:40 AM

For that matter, why did Joshua blow shofarim? He could have just thrown "Toyreh" learning at the walls of Jericho.

A Haredi man accosted Naftali Bennet accusing him of making Haredi mothers cry in worry their sons might be drafted. The self centeredness of this is staggering! Do they not realize that secular mothers also cry? That they do not want their sons to be killed either? The Haredi do not see others are really fully human and that is the starting point of the whole problem. I hope Lapid, Bennett and Netanyahu strike the deal - then the Haredi can serve and work or they can leave Israel. If anyone will have them.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

----------------------

FailedMessiah.com is a reader supported website.

Thank you for your generous support!

----------------------

----------------

----------------

Please Scroll Down Toward The Bottom Of This Page For More Search Options And For A List Of Recent Posts

Recent Posts

Audio: Rabbi Eliezer Silver on Child Sexual Abuse.

Do you need help leaving an ultra-Orthodox community or navigating life outside one? Call Footsteps.

Tip Jar

Gelt Is Good!

Tip Jar
Jibbadgefinalist

Tip Jar

Gelt Is Good!

Tip Jar

Comment Rules

  • 1. No anonymous comments.

    2. Use only one name or alias and stick with that.

    3. Do not use anyone else's name or alias.

    4. Do not sockpuppet.

    5. Try to argue using facts and logic.

    6. Do not lie.

    7. No name-calling, please.

    8. Do not post entire articles or long article excerpts.

    ***Violation of these rules may lead to the violator's comments being edited or his future comments being banned.***

Rubashkin Protest Gear

  • Rubashkin_parody_1

    Buy one of these and wear it to shul. Other Rubashkin gear as well. Protest!
  • Rubashkin_label_parody_1

    Wear this amazing T-shirt to your local supermarket. Better yet, buy a dozen and bring your friends – with signs! Available here!

Older Posts Complete Archives

Search FailedMessiah

Lijit Search

----------------------

FailedMessiah.com is a reader supported website.

Thank you for your generous support!

----------------------

----------------------

----------------------

FailedMessiah.com in the Media

Tip Jar

Gelt Is Good!

Tip Jar

RSS Feed

Blog Widget by LinkWithin