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January 02, 2013

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jon

Have you ever seen such a bunch of spoiled children? I don't even get mad at the chareidim anymore. Just their enablers who bend over every time they throw a fit.

Jeff

I think the problem lies with those black rectangles over the kids' eyes. They can't see the board.

(Sorry.)

Israel is destroying itself. It's marching right over a cliff, like the proverbial lemmings.

Yochanan Lavie

Is the whine mevushal?

KJ-Baigeler

Absolutely everything you need to learn a child is directly in the Toirah all the rest is that what makes a goy less than a Yid.

Feivel

Yidden do not need to learn secular subjects. Everything is in the Torah.

ah-pee-chorus

the report focuses on painting chareidim in a bad light, as “parasites” who take from the state without contributing to society

in other words the report is being truthful and accurate. and he left out 'dishonest' too.

VegLuva

Absolutely perfect. You reap what you sow.

Bruce J Cooke

If they are not getting an education that empowers them to earn a living then they are not getting a Jewish Education.THAT IS TORAH.
These poor souls do not even have Torah.Was Moshe Rabbenu a beggar?No.He was a humble shepherd.In fact being a humble shepherd was a rather popular parnassa for quite a few of our most revered Tzaddikim.Rambam was a Doctor,Zevulun was a business man & that earned him a blessing before the brother he supported.There are few ways to better sanctify Hashems name than to earn an honest living & to conduct your business affairs honestly.The Torah is replete with passages that extol the dignity of work & the satisfaction derived from the eating of your own labor.How to change the incorrect mindset of these misguided souls is a challenge.I would suggest that one way would be to refuse to give them any form of charity other than to fund institutions that train these misguided souls to earn a living & to live like REAL Jews.

David

Posted by: Bruce J Cooke | January 03, 2013 at 01:50 AM

Well said.

Jeff

Posted by: Bruce J Cooke | January 03, 2013 at 01:50 AM

Indeed, well said, but the problem is that the way of life has become deeply entrenched and would take years of concerted effort, and there is no will on the part of their rabbis or Israeli politicians to do so.

I don't think humanity has much time left to begin with, but even if I'm wrong, Israel almost certainly hasn't. I can't see any way in which it can pull itself up out of the hole into which it has dug itself. Netanyahu, the various rebbaim - no one wants to give up his little corner of the sky.

David

Indeed, well said, but the problem is that the way of life has become deeply entrenched and would take years of concerted effort, and there is no will on the part of their rabbis or Israeli politicians to do so.

Posted by: Jeff | January 03, 2013 at 05:09 AM

I agree. How can the Charedim break the cycle of ignorance and lack of education when they are not allowed to think or act for themselves? They are so disconnected from Judaism that they don't know that being educated and working is Torah.

The only way to break the cycle is by external forceful means. At the extreme it might involve removing children from their parents if they refuse to educate them but a lesser measure might be to ensure that the children go to proper schools during the day and can return to their parents at night.

Yochanan Lavie

If everything is in the torah, next time my "check engine" light turns on, I'll consult a chumash rather than the owner's manual. If the problem persists, I'll take my car to a gadol rather than a mechanic.

This is like the legend of the destruction of the Library of Alexandria by Caliph Umar (probably fictional but illustrative of the fundamentalist mindset). Allegedly, the library was torched because if a book went against the Quran it was heretical, and if a book agreed with the Quran, it was superfluous.

In isolating the torah from the world, fundies understand neither the world nor the torah. "Lo b'shemayim hee."

jancsibacsi

The easiest way to change them is stop all financial support to them i guarantee you change will come immidiatly,money is the only thing they understand and money is the only way they connect to the real world with.

Sarek

YL - you are taking a narrow view. Since Israel possesses nuclear weapons, missiles, advanced warplanes, Iron Dome, advanced research facilities, etc., it stands to reason that all of these are found in Torah. None of your fancy "learning" was required.

If you pray it, it will come.

/sarcasm off

Jeff

The only way to break the cycle is by external forceful means. At the extreme it might involve removing children from their parents if they refuse to educate them but a lesser measure might be to ensure that the children go to proper schools during the day and can return to their parents at night.

I agree. I've said as much here before - but it won't be done.

ah-pee-chorus

The Torah is replete with passages that extol the dignity of work & the satisfaction derived from the eating of your own labor.How to change the incorrect mindset of these misguided souls is a challenge.Posted by: Bruce J Cooke

quite true. the rebbes and 'gedolim' know this too. however they are no longer really guided by torah. their lifestyle is an evolved meme whose 'goal' is the replication of itself through high fecundity. its leaders know that involvement in the workplace and increased secular education will diminish the prevalence of the meme through lower birthrates and increased dropouts from the lifestyle. thus the proper ruling is to prohibit them regardless of what the torah says. torah and halacha long ago stopped being their guiding force. in effect the charedi meme has a mind of its own. it can only be stopped by cutting off its needed resource, money. debating them and pointing out their inauthenticity is pointless. the meme doesnt care.

David

http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/idealoccupa.html

Talmudic Attitude Towards Work

The first thing to note is that the sages of the Talmud had a great deal of respect for labor. The Talmud abhorred idleness and felt that it leads to mental illness and sexual immorality (Babylonian Talmud, Kethubos 59b). Rabbi Yosi felt that a person does not die except through idleness (Babylonian Talmud, Avot D'Rabbi Noson 11:1). Rabbi Yehuda and Rabbi Shimon (Babylonian Talmud, Nedarim 49b) stated: "Great is labor for it honors the workman." Both sages would purposely carry burdens on their shoulders because they wanted their students to see that manual labor should be respected. Rabbi Yehuda b. Bathyra said: "If a person has no work to do, what should he do? If he has a dilapidated yard or field, he should go and occupy himself with it" (Babylonian Talmud,, Avot D'Rabbi Noson 11:1). The Talmud (Babylonian Talmud, Avot D'Rabbi Noson 11:1) also believed that "A person should love work and not hate it; for just as the Torah was given with a covenant, so too was work given with a covenant."

Occupations of the Sages of the Talmud

The sages of the Talmud worked at many diverse occupations. For instance, Hillel was a woodchopper before he became the Nasi (President of the Sanhedrin) and Shammai the Elder was a builder. Abba Chilkiyah was a field laborer; Rabbi Yochanan b. Zakkai was a businessman for forty years; Abba Shaul was a gravedigger; Abba Chilkiyah was a field worker; Abba Oshiya was a launderer; Rabbi Shimon P’kuli was a cotton dealer; Rabbi Shmuel b. Shilas was a school teacher, Rabbi Meir and Rabi Chananel were scribes; Rabbi Yosi b. Chalafta was a tanner; Rabbi Yochanan Hasandlar was a shoemaker; Rabbi Yehoshua b. Chananiah was a blacksmith; Rabbi Safra and Rabbi Dimi of Nehardea were merchants; Rabbi Abba b. Zavina was a tailor; Rabbi Yosef b. Chiya and Rabbi Yannai owned vineyards; Rabbi Huna was a farmer and raised cattle; Rabbi Chisda and Rabbi Papa were beer brewers; Karna was a wine smeller (he determined which wine could be stored and which had to be sold immediately); Rabbi Chiya b. Yosef was in the salt business; Abba Bar Abba, (father of Mar Shmuel) was a silk merchant; and (Mar) Shmuel was a doctor.

Bruce J Cooke

Am I correct in saying that there is no word in our Holy tongue for retirement?

David

Am I correct in saying that there is no word in our Holy tongue for retirement?

Posted by: Bruce J Cooke | January 03, 2013 at 07:39 PM

Its called "learning" full-time in Yeshiva or kollel whilst defrauding the welfare system.

Baal TEshuvah

In my opinion, everyone here are afraid to live a truth life of Torah. I'm a Baal Teshuvah, I know how is the life with and without Torah. I have pitty of you, who live a lie because you are afraid to change your way of life. Go on with your life of divorces, violence and deshonesty. Go on with your children who doesn't know what is parents respect. I'll go on with my life of harmony and happines....

Shmarya

Posted by: Baal TEshuvah | January 03, 2013 at 09:58 PM

You do realize that the vast majority of "these people" you attack are either former BTs or former FFB haredim.

Judging from your writing skills, many have much higher levels of secular education than you do. Some clearly have more Jewish education than you, as well.

This "holy life" you're living in your "pure" society – did you not notice the child rapes? The wife beatings? The child abuse? The child neglect? The agunot? The stealing? The frauds? The scams?

Or do you create your own little "pure" bubble by sticking your head in the sand?

You need a good psychiatrist, BT, and you need to open your eyes and see.

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