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December 13, 2012


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I disagree with you so much more often than not, that I'm not sure if I ever agree with you.

However, when you're right, you're right.

This is an important story to keep alive. I live in Jerusalem, and worked at the OU here for three years.

I don't think this is the last we have heard of the Gordon case.

It better not be. I don't have any additional information to offer, but if I ever come across anything substantiated,....

John Smith

this is sad


Please call the Great Shul of Jerusalem where George dispenses his Frumkeit and ask why they have an Abuser on payroll? The shuls e mail is jgs@zahav.netil ,the rav there is Zev Lanton, zev.jgs@gmail.com


dh-- i understand that but i am saying that the person knows he didnt commit the crime he carries himself his inner self is calm , nothing that can bother him to feel bad about i can tell on weberman that he did what this gril says he did just by looking at his demeanor someone who did not commit the crime nothing can budge him not even the things you mentioned like shadhan or employment ,after a while people will sense that and get closer to him


jancs, 'not guilty' does not mean 'innocent' in the USA.


Efram -Not guilty means exactly in the situation i am talking about tootaly innocent no mind games please.


seymour- I dont agree with you, someone who knows in his heart that he is tottaly innocent has absolutly nothing to fear since his concions are clear no matter what anyone thinks he should not be effected by others oppinion of course this goes for someone who has a very strong personality but overall an innocent person has guilty concience no matter what

Posted by: jancsibacsi | December 13, 2012 at 04:24 PM

Tell that to a prospective employer, or to the shadchan, or to the parents of potential friends of your kids if you move to a new neighborhood.

Again, "not guilty" is not the same as "innocent".


Meant to write anyone who is innocent should not fear others oppinon his conciouns are clear


seymour- I dont agree with you, someone who knows in his heart that he is tottaly innocent has absolutly nothing to fear since his concions are clear no matter what anyone thinks he should not be effected by others oppinion of course this goes for someone who has a very strong personality but overall an innocent person has guilty concience no matter what


New York, NY 10038 EIN:03-0381957

The Council of Young Israel Rabbis in Israel (CYIR)

CYIR Administration, Executive Officers and Advisory Board

1) Executive Officers

Rabbi Jeffrey Bienenfeld
Rabbi Mallen Galinsky
Rabbi Chaim Wasserman

Rabbi Meyer Fendel
Rabbi Nachman Kahana
Vice Presidents

Rabbi Yosef Wolicki

Rabbi Yisrael Fass

Rabbi Simcha Krauss*
Chairman of the Executive

2) Advisory Board
Rabbi Reuven Aberman
Rabbi Dr. Aaron Adler*
Rabbi Nachum Bronznick
Rabbi George Finkelstein
Rabbi Dr. Sholom Gold
Rabbi Bernard Goldenberg
Rabbi Macy Gordon
Rabbi Yeshaya Heisler
Rabbi Pinchas Kahn
Rabbi Yoel Litke
Rabbi Chaim Luban*
Rabbi Jay Marcus*
Rabbi Emanuel Quint

* Past President

3) Administration

Rabbi Michael Strick
Executive Director

Rabbi Chanoch Yeres
Director, Judaic Heritage Program for Israel's Deaf and Hearing Impaired

Dr. Lorell Blass
Director, CYIR Counseling Center

Dr. Rachel Levmore
Coordinator, Prenuptial and Divorce Refusal Prevention Projects

Edna Korngold
Program Coordinator, Judaic Heritage Program for Israel's Deaf and Hearing Impaired

Susan Taragin
Administrative Assistant

Michali Shulman


While YU shouldn't have any trouble understanding and applying "reasonable cause to suspect" it is far too vague for the uneducated to comprehend. It is, for them, merely a road map to effectively fail to comply.


It isn't good when vigilantes like me exist. I shouldn't be necessary. It means our leadership and system has utterly failed.


>Without question, people who name
>themselves speak with greater care than
>those who don't.

I disagree. There are a lot of named people who talk with little care for what they say. Rabbi Avi Shafran comes to mind. I have a proven track record. Period.

>And what gives you the right to name
>others while you hide behind anonymity?

The constitution of this great land.

>Why are they not entitled to the same
>protection that you are?

They do. They can sue me and lose. Because as long as I am truthful and accurate that is a complete defense.

>And as for the Dvar Torah:
> 1. You aren't Moshe Rabbeinu.

Of course I'm not. I'm nothing and no one. If Moshe Rabbeinu could not act other than anonymously why must a little no one like me do so? You missed the point.

>2. The individuals you speak of are
>fellow Jews, not Egyptians (indeed, Moshe
>when looking left and right Moshe >disregarded the fact that there were Jews
>beside him, how else was his act >discovered).

Which supports remaining anonymous in my community.

>3. The Torah also contains laws regarding
>Lashon HaRah, Rechilut and Halbanat
>Panim. All of which you blatantly

I note that you never claimed mozi shem rah, most likely because nothing I said was false. There is a benefit to society in exposing the abusers and their protectors. Such a benefit allows this sort of discussion. The laws you refer to were never meant to protect the corrupt. I suggest you read some articles at: http://www.jsafe.org/resources.htm


while I usually agree with you but not in this case an accusation can tar a person for a very long time even if found not guilty

Posted by: seymour | December 13, 2012 at 12:34 PM

True, because what happens is that people will say, yea he was found to be "not guilty" but that does not mean he is innocent.


JewishWhistleblower: I think there is a happy medium between being accountable for what you say and having bleach in your eyes (God forbid). Without question, people who name themselves speak with greater care than those who don't. And what gives you the right to name others while you hide behind anonymity? Why are they not entitled to the same protection that you are?

And as for the Dvar Torah:
1. You aren't Moshe Rabbeinu.
2. The individuals you speak of are fellow Jews, not Egyptians (indeed, Moshe when looking left and right Moshe disregarded the fact that there were Jews beside him, how else was his act discovered).
3. The Torah also contains laws regarding Lashon HaRah, Rechilut and Halbanat Panim. All of which you blatantly disregard.


Sigh...more plagarism. Why don't you attribute source - the Jewish Forward. Rehashing and rewriting - its boring after already reading the primary source.

Posted by: Jay Spinner | December 13, 2012 at 11:34 AM


Go back and read the post. I not only cite the Forward, I link to it and call its report a "devastating exposé."

Perhaps if you were less eager to attack me and more eager to be truthful, you wouldn't make these ridiculous mistakes.



That you are "pretty sure" such requirements existed isn't particularly convincing. I can say definitively that legal, social and communal attitudes to reporting abuse in the 1970's and 1980's were not what they are today (thankfully, we've come very far). Accordingly, your holding them to today's standards is ex post facto, pure and simple. Let me be clear, I believe that they should have reported and committed a grave mistake in not reporting. But their mistake, in the realm of culpability, meant something very different in the 1980's than it does in 2012.

I don't think that YU's administration are the "evil monsters" they are being made out to be here - by some extraordinarily angry people (perhaps themselves victims of abuse, which would make that anger understandable). We'll know more after this is fully investigated, but from the article, it sounds like they tried to remedy the situation and, like unfortunately many people in that era, they made the mistake of doing so discretely.

A. Nuran

Every community has these incidents.
Some communities think they are a serious problem and treat them that way.
Others sweep them under the rug, attack the victims, obstruct justice and defend the criminals


Posted by: YMG | December 13, 2012 at 12:04 PM

Perhaps I should clarify some issues you may not be aware of. In NYS, a mandated reporter calls a hotline at a dedicated government agency. That agency then investigates promptly. It does not automatically result in criminal charges, and the agency may not even issue a formal report of the abuse charge. This is not the same as filing a report with the police.

Were school officials mandated to follow up on the reports in the 1980's? I'm pretty sure they were. However, staff training in private schools on these issues at the time were probably not very thorough.


1) Rabbi Norman Lamm and company took action to protect Gafni and their institution not those Gafni preyed on.

2) Rabbi Norman Lamm was the man in charge. The buck stops with him. He was advised and knew and took no steps to contact authorities or prevent Gafni from moving on to the next Jewish institution and continuing his activities.

3) Gafni quietly left JPSY and then moved to Florida and took over a shul there from Rabbi Norman Lamm's son-in-law.


>And, finally, I am not naming anyone, you
>are. So think it's only fair you identify

So I can have bleach thrown in my eyes?

Everything I refer to is already public information and known. My comments are fair discussion. You don't even deny that YU top officials were involved in the Gafni/JPSY affair. By the way the Founding Fathers of this country also engaged in anonymous political writings. Do you remember the Federalist Papers?

Also, here is a Torah basis for acting anonymously to protect the lives of Jews:

When Moshe Rabeinu violated the law of the land to protect a fellow jew from being beaten to death. He attempted to do so anonymously. He looked to the right and then to the left to ensure no one was around and then acted anonymously.

I know of no obligation for me to name myself when my enemies have made it clear in the past they will do me and mine harm.

I haven't named anyone that hasn't been publicly named already or that I didn't have the documentation to back it up.

There were several names that I gave to advocates, reporters and community leaders in the past when I could not get the documentation to name them in these sort of public forums. Several have been arrested in the past months/years.

My track record is proven.

The fact is that I only exist because the Jewish community continues to silence the survivors and victims of abuse, their families and their supporters and continues to protect the pedophiles and their powerful enablers and protectors such as Rabbi Norman Lamm. I am the voice that can't be silenced. I am here until our community embraces and protects the innocent and weak against the corrupt and powerful. Unfortunately for you, given the state of our community it appears I am here to stay.

There is no bleach that will work on me. The only way to be rid of me is to clean our community up.

Yochanan Lavie

Sarek: yashar koach. "When you're a Jew/you're a Jew all the way/From your brit milah, nu/to gasp, oy vey."


Posted by: YMG | December 13, 2012 at 12:04 PM

Finkelstein's behavior was reported to school authorities in 1986, and he worked at the school until 1995. I'm pretty sure NYS mandated reporting laws were in place at the time. I was a mandated reporter back then, and I had no doubts about my responsibilities.

Again, you seem to confuse a jury verdict with the obligation to report. The standard is "reasonable cause to suspect". You don't need to establish that the accuser is credible, or that their claims are backed up by other reports. If a person said "This happened to me", that is a reasonable cause to suspect.

The investigation has to be done by the authorities, not by the school, no matter how much "care" they use. Again, the mandated reporter does NOT have to establish guilt or innocence. They have to report suspicions. If the state investigates and finds there has been no abuse, there will be no further action. Or there may be action which is out of the courts, eg mandating counseling. But that is up to the authorities, not the school.

Where do I draw the line? I draw it at covering up potential molesters. That means if you suspect you have to report, and yes, you may be causing an innocent person to be investigated. Been there, done that, and I rest easy at night.


JewishWhistleBlower: Sounds from your own account that when Gafni's actions were exposed to them they took action. Not sure what your issue is. I am also not sure why you single out the Lamms and not the other YU members that were there, and attribute a son's actions to his father. Both seem terribly unfair.

And, finally, I am not naming anyone, you are. So think it's only fair you identify yourself.


Terry-There is no shame if someone is innocent no one is destroyed if the accused is innocent i trust he will be vidicated so what are you so worried about?

Posted by: jancsibacsi | December 13, 2012 at 11:48 AM

while I usually agree with you but not in this case an accusation can tar a person for a very long time even if found not guilty


"Susan" one of the alleged survivors of Rabbi Mordechai Gafni (when he was named Mordechai Winiarz and working for JSY which was affiliated with Yeshiva University) gave the following as part of a statement on this:

"I met with JPSY advisers and filled them in on what I knew. There was a meeting at YU [not a Beit Din]. Shalom Lamm, the son of the president of YU, Norman Lamm, was there. Judy and I told of our experiences. Soon after that, Mordecai was ousted from JPSY."

"Susan" was one of the women interviewed by Gary Rosenblatt and her account is well known amongst those involved with the case.

Correction: Rabbi Norman Lamm was not present at this meeting but his son was. Rabbi Norman Lamm was informed and aware of the allegations against Gafni and protected him by allowing him to leave quietly and continue.

By the way "Terry" what is your full name?

Lubavitchers are Christians

Lubavitchers are Christians, you are floating in spcae

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 13, 2012 at 11:23 AM

Fuck off.


I don't think child abuse is more prevalent with the hassidim, I suppose it is about the same everywhere, and the defensive reactions, not believing the victims, etc. are also about the same everywhere.

What shocks me is that on the one hand they claim to be so hyper-hyper-vigilant about zniut und gender separation, and on the other hand, when they hear that Weberman abused the girls entrusted to his care, they answer: so what?

They make big sins of normal behaviour, like talking to a boy, and on the other hand, they let real big sins slip, like incest, adultery, abuse of boys and girls.

Therefore I agree that the over-repression achieves exactly the contrary...



You misunderstand me.

First - yes, even a "one-off" incident should be reported and prosecuted. The issue cuts more to credibility. In cases of abuse where there is an absence of physical evidence and things are largely hearsay, a pattern is far stronger than a one-time occurrence.

Second - I also think it is terribly unfair for you to retrospectively criticize individuals for not following rules of conduct that did not yet exist. When the landscape for dealing with such conduct was sort of the "Wild West." It would be akin to you criticizing brokers for insider-trades prior to the institution of rules that criminalized such trades. Was their conduct wrong and destructive? Yes. Would you say, however, that such people are as culpable as those who violate clear and established law? Clearly, not.

Finally, as to the rights of the accused, no one - or at least certainly not I - would advocate against an investigation. Of course it should happen. But it should be done with care because - as our system of justice recognizes - an accused may very well be innocent. And in the absence of clear and credible evidence the accused is guilty of the crime, are you advocating that we destroy a potentially innocent person? Where do you draw the line?


Terry-There is no shame if someone is innocent no one is destroyed if the accused is innocent i trust he will be vidicated so what are you so worried about?

Mike Kats

To some, secular education is boring as hell.

The south Korean's (who are very successful ppl) are Studying Talmud

Some love Yeshiva some love secular, its a matter of taste and believes

Jay Spinner

Sigh...more plagarism. Why don't you attribute source - the Jewish Forward. Rehashing and rewriting - its boring after already reading the primary source.


("Maria", "West Side Story", Bernstein/Sondheim

The most beautiful sound I ever heard (Yeshiva, Yeshiva, Yeshiva, Yeshiva)
All the beautiful sounds of the world in a single word (Yeshiva, Yeshiva, Yeshiva, Yeshiva, Yeshiva, Yeshiva)

Yeshiva! I just met a school named Yeshiva!
And suddenly that school will never be the same to me. Yeshiva.
I just enrolled in a school named Yeshiva.
And suddenly I found How wonderful a school can be.

Yeshiva. Say it loud and there's some molesting.
Say it soft and there's no one protesting.

Yeshiva, I'll never stop saying Yeshiva, Yeshiva, Yeshiva, Yeshiva, Yeshiva, Yeshiva, Yeshiva, Yeshiva, Yeshiva, Yeshiva
Say it loud and there's some molesting.
Say it soft and there's no one protesting.
Yeshiva. I'll never stop saying Yeshiva.
The most disinterested school I ever heard.


It's easy to point the finger 30 years later but the question is what were the standards at the time. Clearly nowadays the standard to report is much higher, since we know predators are going to repeat. But remember, the duty to report a crime - whether by lawyers, shrinks, family members, or any other professional who discover molestation - was only legally required quite recently.

But even today for example, in Canada, did you know that if a child rapist confesses to his lawyer that he victimized children, the lawyer is not required to tell police unless there is an immediate, impending, certain risk that the offender will repeat. The lawyer- client relationship is so sacred that the lawyer is duty bound to his client not to disclose.

Also, in certain forums, i.e. SA and SAA , although the law is unclear, most people there will likely not report crimes. i.e. past abuse. It's understood that if someone attending SA is coming to treatment, he wants to get better and doesn't want to offend. Would you hold a group of SA people who hear a confession, duty bound to report the confessor to police?

Mike Kats

Lubavitchers are Christians, you are floating in spcae


Official Statement from YU Pres. Joel


Mike Kats

Lubavitchers for Christians; YU are Charidi wannabes. You are all over the place, LOL


Posted by: YMG | December 13, 2012 at 10:52 AM

Do you work for the Agudah? Because your arguments could come straight out of their "Handbook for Non-Reporting of Abuse Cases".

Mandated reporters have to report even a "one-off" incident, and are not supposed to second-guess whether the accuser is credible or not. The standard is "reasonable cause to suspect" abuse, not "beyond a reasonable doubt".

A report does not automatically result in criminal prosecution. As far as I know the accused has no "right" to freedom from an investigation based on a suspicion.

More here from the NYS guidelines for mandated reporters:



Just for the record on Failed Messiah (it's clear in the Forward article), YU had two boys high schools, one in Manhattan (popularly called "MTA" for Manhattan Talmudical Academy) and one in Brooklyn ("BTA"). The article is discussing events at the Manhattan school. The Brooklyn school closed several years ago.

I hope there is not a similar story ready to be published about BTA.

Richard Gere

Which end of the toothbrush?

Lubavitchers are Christians

I always knew the YU crowd were haredi wannabes. No difference between them, really.


While I have no idea if the allegations are true, I'm quite certain that any allegations against YU faculty/staff would be handled very directly and within the law. The Lanner case made a difference.


JewishWhistleblower: To me, bloggers - like yourself - who name and attempt to destroy the reputation of others while they themselves hide behind a veil of anonymity are far more vile, hypocritical, cowardly and shameful. Can such unjust people demand justice? For shame.


Whatever happened to withholding judgment until the facts are fully known? Thankfully, justice isn't determined on the blogosphere, where "Post and Verify Later" trumps values of decency and "Innocent Until Proven Guilty."

And, at that, with all due respect, Rabbi Lamm's quote - "The question of homosexual relations by teachers or principals… was not that clear, and it was not that significant relative to other things that we were dealing with,” -- which you pounce on with such malice, almost screams of having been taken completely out of context by the author to fit the story line in this (relatively unsubstantiated) hatchet job of a piece. You also, disingenuously, don't bother to quote Lamm's quote at the end of the forward's article: "We are all human. Show me anyone who is a human being who has not made a mistake." Are those the words of a "callous" "deeply, offensively, duplicitous and awful" man?

In a court of law or a real investigation, here are some questions that we'd ask (and which we should ask now):

* Is there actual proof that these acts were brought to the administration's attention?

* Were these actions brought on a one-off basis or multiple times, as part of a consistent pattern?

* Assuming a pattern, did the administration actually ignore the pattern or take some kind of (unpublicized) action? (whether that action was sensible or not is different than an allegation that they sat back and did nothing)

* In one-off circumstances, could there have been a circumstantial reason that the administration chose to not act - for example, perhaps it found the victim's story unbelievable? At that, why should an accuser's rights (and, before a story is verified, they are just an accuser) trump that of the accused?

* More fundamentally, was there actually a clear an active attempt by the institution to engage in a cover up or did the institution simply not publicize what took place? And, when we assign culpability, I think we need to look at things in their contemporary context - what was done in other institutions.

Again, none of the above is to suggest that an investigation should not be had. It should. And we - as judicious, intellectually honest people - should speak with care until it runs its course.

Yoel Mechanic


just some background info I found interesting.

I have no experience with this subject (like a lot of people) so I think it important to get info from people who actually are personally and professionally involved with this for advice on how to handle these situations.

This concept that problematic employees are simply dismissed (to then get a job at another school) needs to be fully understood. Is it a desire to protect the guilty? or is it simply a "not in my background" mentality coupled with a "so long as it happens elsewhere" attitude? Or is it a desire to duck legal retaliation from a dismissed employee? An actual expert is needed to explain the full implications.


In my lifes experience i came to the conclusion that molestations and devient behaviour is much more prevelant in the hassidishe world then in the general population

Fortunately my life's experience was much different. I was never abused by any of my family members or by any of my teachers or rabayim or counselors wen I went to camp. That is why we have statistics.

Yochanan Lavie

The Silence of the Lamm, staring Cannibal Lecturers.

Seriously, I knew Macy. I didn't think he was a pedo, just a condescending asshole. His kids were nice, though. I feel bad for his children and his victims.


the issue that make the news about the ultra Orthodox abuse cases is not that sexual abuse happens in those communities it is the reaction when it is reported

in others cases you might have the intuitions that comes into bad light because of their action in the frum world it is not only the institution that behaves poorly it is the whole community by their action supporting every molester and vilifying every accuser

Mike Kats

B: So according to the CDC that's 20% of children. (1-6 boys, 1-4 girls = 1-5 child)


Rabbi Norman Lamm is a vile despicable man who has protected pedophiles and child molesters for decades.

There was a meeting at YU several decades ago regarding allegations of child sexual abuse against Rabbi Mordechai Gafni (Mordechai Winiarz at the time). Rabbi Norman Lamm and his son Shalom Lamm were present among the JPSY advisers that were informed of the allegations. Soon after that, Mordecai was quietly ousted from JPSY and allowed to re-establish himself in Florida.

All these enablers and silencers must go. From every position of honor or authority. They must be removed in a public manner.


In my lifes experience i came to the conclusion that molestations and devient behaviour is much more prevelant in the hassidishe world then in the general population,the reason is they are much more repressed in their everyday life,i wrote here many times that i myself was molested over 50 years ago at the age of 10 in a mikva by non other then our holier then thou shoihet and moel this happened in europe where as children we went to the mikva that was built pre ww2 in the summmer only since my mother was afraid we will get sick in the winter coming out from the just warm enviorment to the winter cold so we only went in the summer those days we had no indor plumbing.


"Some CDC research has estimated that approximately 1 in 6 boys and 1 in 4 girls are sexually abused before the age of 18."


Childhood sexual abuse happens in every community.

FM Fan

How did the Forward scoop you?


sorry about the double post - delay was mistaken for a lost post


It is definitely not just a Chareid or Chassidish problem. But the Rabbis and community's reaction/ enabling in the chassidish world is still a problem while the non-chassidish world has made major improvements since the late 70's and early 80s. Not yet perfect - not yet at a point where administrators are taken to task for what they've enabled but definitely in how currently active/potentially active situations are handled. Not sure the same can be said for the chassidish world although it remains to be seen what the effects of Weberman will be.

What still astonishes me is that the people who brought us twelve foot high mechitzas at every imaginable event still are rallying behind a man who admitted to multiple yichud violations without questioning or even bothering to explain that...


Now it finally comes out clearly how the "Statement of Principles[principals?]", which not only tolerates but welcomes known homosexuals into MO schools and environments,came to be written and signed by so many graduates of YU.

"We are opposed on ethical and moral grounds to both the “outing” of individuals who want to remain private and to coercing those who desire to be open about their orientation to keep it hidden."
8. Accordingly, Jews with homosexual orientations or same sex-attractions should be welcomed as full members of the synagogue and school community. As appropriate with regard to gender and lineage, they should participate and count ritually, be eligible for ritual synagogue honors, and generally be treated in the same fashion and under the same halakhic and hashkafic framework as any other member of the synagogue they join. Conversely, they must accept and fulfill all the responsibilities of such membership, including those generated by communal norms or broad Jewish principles that go beyond formal halakha.

We do not here address what synagogues should do about accepting members
who are openly practicing homosexuals and/or living with a same-sex partner[This stipulation would not have precluded Finkelstein et al from continuing there or elsewhere].
Each synagogue together with its rabbi must establish its own standard with
regard to membership for open violators of halakha.
Those standards should be applied fairly and objectively.
My question is: Who among the writers and signers of this document knew of the goings on at YU High?

"Where there is smoke..."


From wiki: In the United States, approximately 15% to 25% of women and 5% to 15% of men were sexually abused when they were children.

WHAT! I cant believe that statistic! Shocking!

What would be the comparable numbers for the haredi and secular Jews?

Mike Kats

A study conducted by members from several Baltic and Eastern European countries, together with specialists from the United States, examined the causes of child abuse in the countries of Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia and Moldova. In these countries, respectively, 33%, 42%, 18% and 43% of children reported at least one type of child abuse


to both Mike Kats and jancsib;
the other point is that the non- Chareidi world has come a long way since the late 70s and early 80s. Maybe not yet at a point where they are calling administrators to taskfor what was done ie just sedingt suspects quietly on their way, but definitely with regard to current active or potentially active situations.

Mike Kats

Problem period.

From wiki: In the United States, approximately 15% to 25% of women and 5% to 15% of men were sexually abused when they were children. Most sexual abuse offenders are acquainted with their victims; approximately 30% are relatives of the child, most often brothers, fathers, mothers, uncles or cousins; around 60% are other acquaintances such as friends of the family, babysitters, or neighbours; strangers are the offenders in approximately 10% of child sexual abuse cases. In over one-third of cases, the perpetrator is also a minor.


So its not just A Charadi problem

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 13, 2012 at 08:59 AM

The question is if this is a Jewish problem or a problem period!

Mike Kats

Jancsib, Good point.


Mike Kats-But you guys are supposedly the cream of the crop when it comes to being holy and more religious then the non hassidim thats why is so grave when the hassidim do it but you dont have much seihel to see that


So its not just A Charadi problem

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 13, 2012 at 08:59 AM

Are you really this foolish?

Mike Kats

So its not just A Charadi problem

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