Pee Wee Basketball Team Forced To Forfeit Game When Orthodox Opponent Demands That It Bench Its Lone Girl Player

The Orthodox team of little 10-year-old boys demanded that a non-Orthodox team bench its lone little 10-year-old girl player or the Orthodox team said it would refuse to play the game. When the non-Orthodox team refused to comply with the demand, the Orthodox team walked off the court and out of the sports complex – and was awarded the game by forfeit for doing so.

Shiran Grinbaum

Allison Kaplan Sommer writes in Ha'aretz:

…The game took place last week between Elitzur Ra’anana [a Shabbat observant Orthodox team] against a team from the town of Alfei Menashe. The two teams were ready for the first tip-off when the coach of the Ra’anana team, who had travelled to Alfei Menashe, saw that the Alfei Menashe team had a girl playing on the team - a rosy-cheeked blonde ten-year-old named Shiran Grinbaum.

The Ra’anana coach stopped the game. No girls allowed, he said.

He explained that the game could not continue with Grinbaum on the court, as he was “forbidden to permit the children to play because they are religious boys who observe the prohibition against touching members of the opposite sex” he said, referring to the practice known as “Shomer Negiah,” in which adolescent and adult men and women refrain from any physical contact until marriage. It applied, he said, even though his players were only ten years old.

The Alfei Menashe coach refused to pull Shiran from the game. Following the confrontation, the Ra’anana team went home. Interviewed on television, Shiran said tearfully she was ‘very insulted’ that the game was called off because of her, and that she had cried when, in previous similar circumstances, she had been forced to sit on the bench. Her mother also went on camera, speaking out against the absurdity of these kinds of gender restrictions for children.

The Channel 10 report sparked outrage - particularly when it came to the technical results of the incident. According to Israel's Basketball Association rules, the technical victory of the game belonged to Ra’anana. Officially, Alfei Menashe would be penalized for refusing to pull Shiran from the game, while there were no consequences to Ra’anana’s refusal to play because of a girl’s participation.…

That's right.

The Orthodox team of little boys demands that the non-Orthodox team bench a little girl or the Orthodox team won't play. When the non-Orthodox team refuses, the Orthodox team walks off and wins the game by doing so!

These are 10-year-old children!

Predictably, Israel erupted over this.

There are calls for the government to stop funding the Orthodox Elitzur league – which, of course, will never happen as long as Israel's right and center parties need Orthodox votes.

Israel's Minister of Sport is under pressure to do something. Chances are, she won't.

And so it goes in the Israel overwhelmingly founded by egalitarian Jews who were largely post-religion, an Israel that has long since been held hostage by a corrosive Orthodoxy of settlers and haredim, and Orthodoxy where black clad men spit on little girls and call them whores while 10-year-old boys in knitted kippas can't play a basketball game against a team with a lone 10-year-old female player.

Comments

[Garnel Ironheart]

Question: if the situation was reversed and these were two teams of girls with one having a handsome cherub-faced boy on it and the feminist mothers of the other team demanded that he be removed because they didn't want their girls playing against boys, would there be this much outrage?

[njsmile!]

Something is missing from this story.
Is it possible that the coach that claimed this was negiah is actually chareidi? Is it possible that there was some other reason that the Ranaana team didnt want to play that day and they knew they could "win" with this charade?
btw - I used to practice riding with the Alfei Menashe bike racing team and they were wonderful people! Who knows maybe a parent of this girl among them

Posted by: njsmile! |

[Ben]

So let's get this straight, the league was created (according to article) for the very purpose of accommodate religious observance and you have an issue with a team playing by the rules and asking that the other side accommodate their religious observance levels?

Whether you agree with gender separation or not, the league/organization is set up for to promote sports for the religious public and has separate girls and boys teams. This girl doesn't want to be singled out then either join an all-girls team, join a co-ed team or if you are religious (or not) and don't want co-ed and there isn't an all girls team, create one.

[Isaac]

It's just a matter of following the preestablished set of rules - no mixed team competitions.

[bdlerner]

If the presence of a 10 year old girl posed such a problem, is it now the case that 10 year old girls are now denied to be with their fathers/brothers in their area of the mechitzah, which I have observed for years. The earliest age for Bat Mitzvah is much older, unless now that is changed. Curious.

[Dov]

Question: if the situation was reversed and these were two teams of girls with one having a handsome cherub-faced boy on it and the feminist mothers of the other team demanded that he be removed because they didn't want their girls playing against boys, would there be this much outrage?
----------------------------

And would you be outraged if a team of Christians refused to play against a team with a Jewish boy on it??

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Ben | December 31, 2012 at 10:56 AM

Not focusing today, eh?

The Elitzur league was formed to accommodate Shabbat observance.

But it always had non-Orthodox players and played against non-Orthodox teams.

And that was the case in this game where the Elitzur Ra’anana team to Alfei Menashe to play a non-Orthodox team there.

Why you assume that Elitzur league teams should be able to enforce capricious religious rules on other teams is beyond me, and why taxpayer should fund this crap is beyond me, as well.

That MO teams of that age didn't worry much about shomer negiah until very recently doesn't seem to concern you.

That the Orthodox team did not warn the non-Orthodox team about the problem ahead of time is something that should trouble you – but it doesn't, which says a lot about how you view this.

These are 10-year-old kids.

It's a basketball game with adult supervision and parents right there watching.

There's no real negiah to worry about.

And that's the point guys like you will probably never be able to understand.

[Yoel Mechanic]

Excuse me: what are the league rules? Until we know what the rules permit, and what these teams agree to one cannot really engage in a rational discussion of which team is the one to forfeit the game.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Usually, the team who refuses to play forfeits the game (viz. Elitzur Ra’anana). OTOH, the essence of the word forfeit is that one is penalized for violating a rule, so maybe the other team (Alfei Menashe) truly deserved the penalty.

Alfei Menashe would deserve the forfeit, IMHO, only if the league rules explicitly prohibit the participation of girls. Then the argument could be made they had a team with an improper roster, which would thus disqualify them from participating in the game.

However, since no game official disqualified the team when the rosters were submitted before the game, it was incumbent upon Elitzur Ra’anana to play Alfei Menashe. Since Elitzur Ra’anana decided not to play, they should have received the forfeit. Elitzur Ra’anana then should have been afforded an opportunity to appeal the penalty with the league office.

[seymour]

the question is it depends on the rules is it a mixed league or non mixed league

[Runner1983]

As time goes on, there will be more and more incidents were haredi values will clash with the modern world, and the haredi values will win out, because of the growing religious and cultural influence of the Haredim due to their relatively higher population growth rates. This spells disaster for Israel. The western world is not supporting Israel because of its haredi culture. The haredi influence on the values of Isreal needs to be neutralized before it is too late.

[Apostate]

I'd file a civil rights violation case. Do they see she has any rights, or is she just breeding stock to them?

[Chaim]

The real idiot in all this is the guy who promised to accommodate the Chareidim. What was he thinking? What did he THINK would happen when a Chareidi team would be playing against a co-ed team?
Whoever set up the situation KNEW that he would end up hurting the girls.

Dov: It is not so much about "discrimination" of playing against a girl, it is the impropriety of physical contact with a person of the opposite gender that was at issue here. The fact that I might give you a slap on the back but not your wife has nothing to do with "discrimination"

[Shmarya]

The real idiot in all this is the guy who promised to accommodate the Chareidim. What was he thinking? What did he THINK would happen when a Chareidi team would be playing against a co-ed team?
Whoever set up the situation KNEW that he would end up hurting the girls.

They are N-O-T haredim. They're modern orthodox.

[Garnel Ironheart]

> And would you be outraged if a team of Christians refused to play against a team with a Jewish boy on it??

If it was in a league formed by Chrisians and meant for Chrisians to play each other in an infidel-free environment, why not?

[ah-pee-chorus]

either the league is co-ed or its for boys only. the article doesnt include the most important point. if its a shomer shabbos league, its most likely boys only. and if thats the case, the other team was violating the rules by having a girl and since they refused to exclude her from the game when offered that option, they deserve to forfeit.
OTOH if the league has no rules barring girls, then its outrageous. i dont see much middle ground here.

of course i despise that young kids are indoctrinated with the strict separation of the sexes mindset and that the govt. funds leagues which adhere to religious rules.

[YP]

Even non-jews have seperate sports team for man and women. It's logical. It would be extremely embarasing to the team who'd lose to the team where there was a girl.

I had a friend who was on a wresling team in HS. He was in MO high school, and went to the turnoment in different state, for public schools, and he saw that any wrestler there who was offered to wrestle a girl, would just forfeit.

[Jake]

Yoel,
You asked the right question.

What are the team rules.

Apparently the league does not promote mixed teams of boys and girls.
Ranna won even though it walked out.

No harm no foul just a lot of noise.

[Ben]

Not focusing today, eh?

The Elitzur league was formed to accommodate Shabbat observance.

- According to the article it was formed to accommodate religious observance. If that team's observance is no girls, then it is within their right to ask for that accommodation.

But it always had non-Orthodox players and played against non-Orthodox teams.

And that was the case in this game where the Elitzur Ra’anana team to Alfei Menashe to play a non-Orthodox team there.

Orthodox people play non-orthodox people all the time. There was nothing in this article about Ra'Na'Na refusing to play the other team because they were non-orthodox. This was a mixed gender issue and refused to play because there was a girl on the other team which the coach said offended his team's religious belief. I have no idea how you can twist that into a general refusal to play non-orthodox teams.

Why you assume that Elitzur league teams should be able to enforce capricious religious rules on other teams is beyond me, and why taxpayer should fund this crap is beyond me, as well.

If that is what the league rules permit then they are fully entitled to the request. If not, then they should not be able to force their religious belief on anyone and they should bear the loss of the game.

Why taxpayers should fund it - unlike here in the US, the separation of "church" and state is not part of their constitution. Quite the contrary, as evidenced by countless of your rantings and attacks, religious rules play a huge role in government in Israel. Until a law is passed there that says no finding of things religious, then funding for that league is just as right as any other league. If a group of taxpayers doesn't like it - too bas. Many people don't like countless other things funded by governments, but that is part of being part of a country.

That MO teams of that age didn't worry much about shomer negiah until very recently doesn't seem to concern you.

No it doesn't - why should it? They are entitled to pick up chumras if they wish. They can also decide that being religious is not for them and it is none of my business, either way. People change as they get older and making accommodations for changes is a part of life as nothing stays exactly the same in either direction. No question that a portion of MO has shifted to the right, but that is their choice.

That the Orthodox team did not warn the non-Orthodox team about the problem ahead of time is something that should trouble you – but it doesn't, which says a lot about how you view this.

I have no idea as to the exact details of what happened and neither do you. What is clear is that (1) the non-religious team was made aware of the issue before tip-off (although I don't know exactly when) and (2) despite whatever "offense" you feel the MO team committed, they still got the "win" by forfeit. Although we can't know for sure, generally the team that loses by forfeit is the one in the wrong. Hence, if the non-religious team lost by forfeit, then it is a viable inference that they did something wrong, not the other way. Did you ever consider the possibility that the league is not co-ed and the non-religious team did something wrong, or that girls may play absent the other team saying something, or that the MO team did make the non-religious team aware of the issue but the non-religious team decided to use this girl as pawn to make a political stand?

These are 10-year-old kids.

So what? According to Orthodox practice, including MO practice, chinuch begins certainly by six and probably earlier. If the MO team feels that it is against their principles to have boys over the age of chinuch play against a girl, that is their right. If it is against league rules, then they should have lost. If the league rules are not in conformance with their belief system, then they should withdraw (the same way I said above that she should play with an all-girls team if this league is not co-ed).

It's a basketball game with adult supervision and parents right there watching.

The fact that there is adult supervision has no bearing on whether it was permitted or not to play in this game.

There's no real negiah to worry about.

While I'm glad Posek Shmarya is telling me what is or is not permitted, clearly you are not the final word and someone with the Ra'Na'Na team disagreed with you and felt there was something to worry about. You and I have no right to tell Ra'Na'Na what they should worry about

And that's the point guys like you will probably never be able to understand.

This was fun. We should do it again.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | December 31, 2012 at 01:00 PM

There apparently are TWO leagues, the Orthodox league and the non-Orthodox league.

The leagues play each other.

Apparently the Orthodox teams have demanded that no girls pay when they're playing the non-Orthodox teams, even if they;re playing at the non-Orthodox team's home arena.

And the government sports authority that runs this stuff – probably Likud controlled – has apparently given in to that demand, but hasn't bothered to notify the secular teams.

That's what appears to be happening.

And even if I'm wrong about the politics of this, since when would the rules anywhere be that the visiting team's league's rules are in play?

When the Yankees play the Dodgers in NYC, does the Yankee's pitcher have to bat?

[seymour]

it is bazzar that this was not worked out before by both teams and or leagues

[DBSesq]

This is too small a teapot for this tempest. The rules of the league ought to control. Anyone know what they are?

[different dave]

just utter stupidity must be a slow anti religious news day, girls should not be playing sports with boys its a physical thing not a religious thing

[Expatriate Owl]

They probably were afraid of the bushah had they lost to a team with a girl on it.

[Shmarya]

This is too small a teapot for this tempest. The rules of the league ought to control. Anyone know what they are?

Posted by: DBSesq | December 31, 2012 at 01:46 PM

No bow ties, no straw hats, no purple ties worn with pink shirts, and something about the number of times you can gesture with your with your face and shoulders to get a fellow board member to leave a public board meeting to end the quorum in order to stop the public from commenting on your poor performance.

Hopefully you'll get a copy of these from the state sometime soon if you haven't already.

[ah-pee-chorus]

There apparently are TWO leagues, the Orthodox league and the non-Orthodox league.

The leagues play each other.

Posted by: Shmarya

thats a different story. i was under the impression that the 2 teams were from the same "orthodox" league even though the Alfei Menashe team isnt ortho.
if there are 2 different leagues, the association needs to ensure that all teams from both leagues are informed of the rules governing inter-league play. of course as a govt. funded league the rules should be governed by the ideals of the state, not the torah, and girls should be allowed to compete. if that were so, i would guess there would be no games scheduled between the 2 leagues since the orthos would not agree to be bound by these rules.

[Yoily Poily Oily]

Everyone is missint the most important point that Shmarya has conveniently omitted. The ONLY reason that the MO team refused to play was because there was incontrivertable evidence that this girl, although under Bat Mitzva age, had already sprouted two individual pubic hairs and that made the potential touching prohibited. The other team refused to accomodate the MO yeam until they named the two wittnesses who had made the observation. One did come forward, but Weberman refused which led ti this entire unfortunate affair.

[Nachum]

Well, YU refuses to play women- basketball, at least. (Fencing is OK.) But you see, when that happens, it's *YU* that forfeits the game. (Of course, they try to work things out beforehand.) Same when someone demands they remove their kippot- not every player wears them, but YU then forfeits.

Sorry if that makes religious people look good, Shmarya- I know you hate that.

And who cares who founded Israel? Are you going to argue that the USA should be run by WASP slaveowners? Give me a break.

[Mike]

Sad day for modern orthodoxy. A few years ago this would have been unheard of. These hypersexual maniacs are so nervous about ten year old children playing baseball together. Unbelievable.

[Sk]

Notice it was the team from Alfei Menashe, a settlement beyond the Green Line, that had the girl player. See, not all settlers are religious fanatics.

[YP]

Posted by: Nachum | December 31, 2012 at 04:10 PM

Not sure you know what you are talking about. YU had women basketball team at least couple of years ago.

[Maskil]

Oh my gosh! I'm floored. We have a Minister of Sport? After all the Greeks did to us? Didn't we learn anything from the story of Chanukah? We have homeless Jews here, and the government allocates money to ... sports?

Coming up next: Orthodox team calls for all women to leave the room because its members observe the prohibition of looking at women (same prohibition as touching, if it is not "a friendly embrace" but one derives pleasure from it); mother doesn't leave room and Orthodox team wins.

[Yoel Mechanic]

Thanks Seymour, and ah-pee-chorus for asking the appropriate question(s).

[...]

In a beauty contest who wins, shmarya or danny boy?

[spacedout BT]

What negiah? Basketball is not a contact sport and fouling costs points. No one in Alfei Menashe has to "high five" Shiran. Its' not about the sport but rather someone is looking over their shoulder to the right. Does Ra'anana play "streetball" that they need more stringency? Sounds like Shiran is getting fouled by the entire Ra'anana team and Shmarya calls it.

[Nachum]

YP: The YU men's team won't play men's teams with women on them (there are several, especially in smaller schools) if the woman is playing.

[Yoel Mechanic]

From reading the statements and language, should be sensitive to those who desire to smooth these conflicts over in the interest of accommodation and getting along, in contrast to those who use carefully chosen language to impugn, polarize, and increase tensions in the interest of political and social action against their enemies.

Now for my customary plug for community college: Those Yeshivah educated are likely to lack these analytic and language skills. Those sorts of Yeshivahs should refrain from granting a high school diploma so their graduates can qualify for the FREE GED classes, and adult education that will get them ready for community college. Once ready for community college, then take the GED, and then enroll in the credit classes. This should be considered standard procedure for all Yeshivah graduates. After 2 or more years at community college you will have a broader and more balanced derech for your Torah life.

Anyone who has been seriously involved in community colleges, particularly inner-city ones will know these are not party schools, and the environment will not be a social challenge. If you want to be married before attending, fine, that is also another strategy.

[Yehudit]

Geeze. Take a secular game and try to instill Jewish restrictions on it. Gosh. If you really want to do such, and I can also see the side where the boys also have a right to be comfortable playing, but you also have a mitzvah to treat the girl with kavod becuase she is a yid - just like you, and her rights to be respected and not made to feel belittled are also something very important to HKBH. Lets try to look at the whole picture instead of just focusing on one yetzer hara (in the sense of what is best for "me") aspect.