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December 30, 2012

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kamal

you don't have to be a scientist or genetist for that matter, to conclude that Jews are not one ethnic group.just look at their faces, what is in common between a blond blue eyed European jew, with a middle eastern looking man, or African looking man? Judaism is a religion today, not a tribe, may have started with a tribe some five thousand years ago.

Khazar1

I was also in Dr. Eran Elhaik's study.

Khazar1

Slavs and Khazars. The non-Israelite Y-DNA haplogroups include Q1b1a (typically Central Asian) and R1a1 (typically Eastern European but the most common Ashkenazic variant comes from somewhere in Asia, probably Central Asia". This sounds like me. I'm Q1b1a from 4 different DNA Testing labs I am Ashkenazi and also Khazar.

zibble

The most current article by Elhaik can be downloaded here:

http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/5/1/61.full.pdf+html

with supplementary data here: http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/5/1/61/suppl/DC1

Ynot

I am still the lone non-scientist trying to figure out how men can have ME genes and women have mixed genes if women give birth to men. Maybe I am a lost cause to science, but could someone explain it?

tal


From 2001:

Journal axes gene research on Jews and Palestinians

A keynote research paper showing that Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians are genetically almost identical has been pulled from a leading journal.

Academics who have already received copies of Human Immunology have been urged to rip out the offending pages and throw them away.

Such a drastic act of self-censorship is unprecedented in research publishing and has created widespread disquiet, generating fears that it may involve the suppression of scientific work that questions Biblical dogma.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/25/medicalscience.genetics

Jeff

How can a male gene be from the Middle East and female genes be a mixture?

Some DNA comes from only one parent. Mitochondrial DNA comes solely from the mother. Gender is determined by the X or Y-chromosome, which comes from the father.

spacedout BT

Hold the koumiss, Ghengis. Where's the mezuza for my yurt?

Ynot

Question? I am not a scientist and know little of genetics. How can male genes be from the Middle East and female genes be a mixture? If women give birth to men, then don't all genes have to be a mixture?

Ynot

Question? I am not a scientist and know little of the workings of genetics. How can a male gene be from the Middle East and female genes be a mixture? If women give birth to men then don't all genes have to be the mixture of the female genes?

mimi

"About half of Ashkenazic Levites possess Eastern European non-Israelite haplotypes belonging to the R1a1 haplogroup. This is almost never found among Sephardic Levites, and may have been introduced into the Ashkenazic Levite lines by Slavs or Khazars who converted to Judaism."

Not quite half, but at least 10 percent. This haplotype is common among Brahmin Indian, E. Persian, Czek, South German, Anatolian Greeks and Armenians and some Ashkenazi too. NOT Italian. This is one haplotype started in Siberia, and ended up in The Caucasus and parts of Europe.
http://www.humanjourney.us/indoEurope2.html


I can believe half have a European Y, but not r1a1

Friar Yid

Herod- For example, the historical idea of a mass conversion to Judaism strikes me as odd. What was the logic behind that? The Khazars had Byzantine Christians on one border and Arabian Muslims on another. Neither group was favorably disposed toward Judaism. Why make a sudden switch to a religion that your neighbors hate?

Medieval versions of the story say that the Khazar khan chose Judaism as a show of religious neutrality so neither neighbor would accuse his kingdom of being overly close to the other.

While there are lots of unanswered questions about the Khazars and their relation to Ashkenazim, there are two very interesting tidbits I've encountered over the years. First, there is archaeological evidence (graves, & coinage) as well as contemporary accounts suggesting that Judaism may have started being confined to the elite nobility but then filtered downward, promoted by enthusiastic Khazar leaders. Some Arabic and Karaite documents of the period claim that the Jewish Khazars wielded a great deal of political power over the kingdom, and this may have trickled into culture and religion as well. The Karaites of the day even complained that the Jewish Khazars had been so effectively recruited into rabbinic Judaism, including observing Hanukkah, Passover, Shabbat, and studying Torah, Talmud and Mishnah.

Second, Arthur Koestler and others have noted that in the 7th century there was suddenly a large Jewish population bump in Eastern Europe. The conventional wisdom has been that this increase was due to immigration and a high birth-rate, but it may also be that some of the Jewish Khazars added to the numbers and effectively became such good converts that they became indistinguishable from the rest of the Ashkenazi community. (Not being an expert in 7th century Jewish demographics, I can't comment on how true this is, but if it's remotely accurate it would certainly be an interesting bit of circumstantial evidence.)

jancsibacsi

Boris-HI boris how is morris?:)

Boris

Boulderdash! Go down to Southern Florida and watch the Jewish old timers. You cannot tell the difference between an old Sephardic Syrian Jew from an old Ashkenazi Polish Jew. They look identical.

jancsibacsi

SkepticalYid--I get you but in my mind still since i have an indian who claims he is originally from syria and a few arabs distant but still a match i beleive that i am definitly going back a thousand or more years decendant from the original kohanim jews i need to go over his thesis more to comprehend what he is saying i admit that.

SkepticalYid

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 10:02 PM

He doesn't discuss the Y J1 and J2 haplogenes at all. He's comparing entire DNA subsets. All 46 chromosomes. Not just the Y. Get it through your thick heads- he isn't interested in one single paternal chromosome- he's not disputing the Y chromosome's Most Common Recent Ancestor (which could just as easily be from the Caucasus or Africa, btw). This is solely a research article that's of interest to other researchers and the medical world. Try reading it and if you can't understand it, get someone who's literate in scientific publications to explain it. For the last time- he did NOT say that ALL Ashkenazi Jews are Khazar. He suggests that SOME Eastern European Jews have a high percentage of Khazar DNA. This refutes prior studies that suggested most Eastern European Jews were descended from 50,000 or so German Jewish immigrants. No one has done a comprehensive study of this nature previously. That's all!
I'm outta here.
Yochanan- you have my email, so stay in touch!
Jansci- Szervosz!

Mike Kats

Respected researcher's won't issue a "short rebuttal" without doing major research before, that's why they are called researcher's and not politician's.

BTW what does "imbecilic" mean?

Shmarya Shmarya, your energy and passion should be respected, but its pointed to a terribly false and mean end. Happy new year

Shmarya

I said there is no MAJOR contradictions, and there isn't.

4 months in the research world is nothing, NADA.


Again, you don't know what you're talking about.

There are major contradictions. Some of the earlier studies appear to completely contradict others, for example.

Past that. you little ignorant, lying, moronic, imbecilic, illiterate, Hungarian troll, four months is nothing for a responding study and research paper.

But a short rebuttal – which is done all the time – and comment for newspapers, magazines and scientific journals? Four months is a very, very long time.

Even so, none of these leading geneticists have been willing to comment – except for the ones who commented with the publication of Elhaik's article supporting it.

The reason for that, Mikey, is that they have nothing to say that won't make themselves look even worse than they already look now.

I'm sure Osterer and one or two others (especially the ones who make big bucks selling Jewish DNA tests) may be trying to refute Elhaik's work, but what they don't want now is controversy and publicity BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ANY AMMUNITION YET TO WIN THE FIGHT.

And thing is, Mikey, chances are, they never will.

Mike Kats

Jan, Yeah, maybe we are close relatives. I'm going to take this test soon.

Mike Kats

The Mafoso gene kicked in, LOL

"I did not write the post that carries my name" What does this mean?

I said there is no MAJOR contradictions, and there isn't.

4 months in the research world is nothing, NADA.


An other Childish outburst: I will go to the police, FBI.

Shmarya

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 31, 2012 at 09:00 AM

"Mike" –

You're a liar, a troll, and a near-illiterate.

There are huge contradictions in the earlier studies as you might note if you read the Ha'aretz article or the comments left here by scientists and geneticists.

For you to claim that these contradictions do not exist is laughable, because NO ONE working in the field makes that claim.

If this new study had the major flaws that you and others claim it has, it could have easily been refuted by leading geneticists – but not one of them has done so.

Four months is quite a long time when it comes to writing a short rebuttal.

Mike Kats

Shmarya, like before, your gibberish is a bunch of bull from a little Cozek.

There were no major contradictions with the preview’s research and there are still many questions with this new research (as many of the reader pointed out).

Only a child in an adult body (like yours) will conclude anything based on the argument that no one rebuffed him in 4 months.

Real adults will base their conclusion on the consensus opinion (from acdamics with much more citations), and we all know what that is.
Shmarya, like before, your gibberish is a bunch of bull. There were no major contradictions with the preview’s research and there are still many questions with this new research (as many of the reader pointed out).

Only a child in an adult body (like yours) will conclude anything based on the argument that no one rebuffed him in 4 months.

Real adults will base their conclusion on the consensus opinion (including academic’s with much more citations), and we all know what that is.

This child decision-making-process of yours, is swinging you your whole life from one extreme believe system to the next.

jancsibacsi

yes i took this dna test over 5 years ago and keep getting new matches i have almost 100 but iknow other kohen groups that have only 15 or 20 the main 2 groups are the j1 and j2 groups who knows you might even match me:))

Mike Kats

Jan: Thanks. So you are defiantly a decadent from Aron?

jancsibacsi

Shmarya--I have a few arabs in my match distant ones doesnt that mean anything?and i know of a few other kohen groups who have sefardi and also arab matches what do you say to that?

jancsibacsi

Mike Kats--I wrote before that if you google ftdna you will see ftdna stands for familytreedna its a big company i took it there i have a famous family match i wont mention here everyone knows them.

Mike Kats

Remy llona, Many other respected researches came to the same conclusion as yours, Except this Left-wing Israeli with an agenda.

When your research is done, if you don't mind, please send it to me at mknygs@aol.com

Thank You

Michelle Stein-Evers Frankl

You know what the simple explanation is? White Jews of all colors need that DNA not to have any markers in common with people of color; Sefardim/ Mizrachim want nothing that might point to folks of color either. Normative Jews want all Jews to be white. Jews came to the New World and lost much of their ancient stigma and gained white skin privilege instead.Ok for them.
On the other side, people of color who identify as Jews and who claim to have some sort of group memory of a migration by "others" who came from far away and usually are supposed to have 'white skin' need for these tests to certify their connection to Jews.
Lots of studies have been done so far with lots of interesting results. Many of the studies conclusions negate possibilities that other studies certify. Each group will LONG for a definitive study that will prove, for once and for all times that Jews began in one neighborhood. But guess what? It's not that easy and it never will happen. It is not that simple and it shouldn't be so.
Someone mentioned a black guy who called him a Khazer and this was supposed to be evidence of antiSsmitism. Maybe it could have been explained in another way: the guy was from a family of blacks who secretly identified as Jews. None of their mythology explains why there are white Jews, their mythic structure only allows for Jews from Africa. To them, the stories of Torah take place in neighborhood filled with people of color: Moses? Egypt. Abraham Avinu? Mesopotamia, perhaps but could there not have been other rivers and other cities, filled with people of color. When the Exile happened, wouldn't have made sense for Jews escaping Rome to go where there were no Romans? Africa. Then the kid and his family hear the story of the Khazars, which would explain, to them, why Amerucan Jews are white: they are imposters. So he threw the epithet back and called (whomever it was) a Khazer. It is an example if what white Jews have done for long years to black Jews of all sorts; tell them no, you cannot be a view because of your skin color. You are an imposter, your skin color and your ignorance of OUR culture prove you are not Jewish.

Remy Ilona

I am a researcher so I respect research. My latest work can be accessed here-

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008N2VHBI


I'll try to study this new study in totality to see why the author reached the conclusions that he reached, because his findings differ from what I discovered.

I have surveyed the Jewish people from every possible angle, and I have found sufficient evidence that all the people of Israel have a common ancestry. In other-words that the Jewish people began as a Middle-Eastern tribe that 'outsiders' joined through conversion, and other associations, and that gradually spread to every corner of the globe.

Herod the Not-so-Great

The issue of whether Ashkinazi Jews are of Khazari origin is different from their genetic ties (or lack of ties) to the Middle-Eastern Jews of the Torah. And the two issues are not mutually exclusive.

I'm not a geneticist. I'll accept the author's methods as sound, based on what I've read. But the author seems to have only casual knowledge of Central Asian & Eastern European history. And that is troubling. He may be misattributing the term 'Khazar' to a group of people who are not Khazars.

This seems to be one genetic study which requires a careful ethnographic survey of history. And I don't think the author has done that.

For example, the historical idea of a mass conversion to Judaism strikes me as odd. What was the logic behind that? The Khazars had Byzantine Christians on one border and Arabian Muslims on another. Neither group was favorably disposed toward Judaism. Why make a sudden switch to a religion that your neighbors hate?

I'm sorry to see the ad hominem attacks here. This is a serious book. It deserves serious discussion. And whether Jew-haters embrace this theory or not is irrelevant AFAIC. Either it is valid or it is flawed. My view is that it is flawed. The author has his data points charted. Now I'd like to see a coherent history based on those data points.


Shmarya

So he admits there is some but its to small, the other 20 researches say its not that small


Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 10:20 PM

To say that you don't understand any of this is an understatement.

You have x amount of previous studies. All have major problems and contradict each other in various ways.

Elhaik was able to rectify those problems and contradictions, and the result he got doing so shows that the amount of ME DNA appears to be too small for an ME origin, while on the other hand, almost all Ashkenazi Jews have Khazar DNA.

But don't feel bad, little Hungarian – Joel Teitelbaum was a Hun, too.

Archtypist

It's not surprising to me to see so many of you slavering over this new study with all the avidity of a neo-Nazi seeking some supporting ancestry to his preconceived racist views.
If this sounds like I am calling you all racists, I'm not. I'm just saying that many of you seem overly obsessed with your genetic history and that such an obsession is not healthy.
Now I would guess that this obsession is an understandable side-effect of how your culture focuses on genetics, family ties, historical tie-ins, and all that, but I would also guess that you have no idea just how racist you sound as you pore over these results on Shmarya's website and argue with each other on the merits of this or that hair-splitting interpretation of what others have said here or there.

If this was the stormfront website, the only difference might be in what DNA you are seeking as a way of legitimizing your culture and beliefs, including your claims to racial purity and supremacy - the hallmark of modern racism.

I have yet to meet a racist that did not protest against being labeled such.
I expect no different from any of you who do not like my honest opinion.
I am not a racist, so don't bother trying to call me one. Many of you people are racists, though, and are often the ones who scream the loudest at any threat to your treasured and deeply-ingrained prejudices.

As to the study itself, as long as it includes a rational amount of disclaimers as to how it focuses on one segment of human history vis a vis claimed Jewish genetic history as a subset of that, I am not likely to have much problem with it.
You are all human. Some of you are racist.
Since so many of you have been indoctrinated into your xenophobic culture to think and view the world the way you do, I hold no personal enmity for you as victims of forced indoctrination.
Free yourselves from your illusions and join the rational parts of humanity as we move into the future.
I invite you self-proclaimed Jews to cast off your mental chains and join the 21st Century with all other people in the world.
I hate racism, even sublimated racism like most of you practice daily.
Time to stop that crazy shit, okay?

Mike Kats

So he admits there is some but its to small, the other 20 researches say its not that small


Shmarya

Skeptical Yid You mean Eran Elhaik article? So his claim is close to the articles that I pasted from Wiki and NYT, claiming that many Ashnazi Jews have SOME DNA other then ME.

In other word's, his claim does not necessarily contradicts the other evidence from many researcher's that the Y DNA is indeed linked to the ME.


Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 10:02 PM

He says the amount of ME DNA is too small to indicate ME origins.

Mike Kats

jancsibacsi: I'm a cohen. I also have the Cohen character of getting angry to quickly...

Where can I do the Cohen DNA test?

Yochanan Lavie

Having some Khazar genetic material (which I very well might have) doesn't invalidate our identity as Jews. As Eli said, memes are stronger than genes. There are very few ethnic groups that are racially "pure." What bothers me is not the possibility that we are from converts; it what the haters would make of that fact. Though the Arabs are hardly "pure" themselves, they would have a field day.

Mike Kats

Skeptical Yid You mean Eran Elhaik article? So his claim is close to the articles that I pasted from Wiki and NYT, claiming that many Ashnazi Jews have SOME DNA other then ME.

In other word's, his claim does not necessarily contradicts the other evidence from many researcher's that the Y DNA is indeed linked to the ME.


SkepticalYid

The article states that 80-90% of Eastern European Jews have some Khazar inheritance. That's it.

DZ

I can't comment on genetics but the history of Ashkenaz history is documented in contemporaneous sources, both Jewish and Christian. Jews first settled in Ashkenaz in the Ninth Century with the urging of Carolingian kings who wished to establish economic centers in their kingdom. We know of efforts of church officials who chafed at the favor shown toward the Jews by the empire. We also know a lot about the earliest major Jewish leaders in 9th and 10th century Ashkenaz from the responsa and poetry they wrote, such as members of the Kalynomus family (which migrated from Italy) and Rabbeinu Gershom. (See, eg, A. Grossman, Chachmei Ashkenaz Harishonim). Were they actually converted Khazars who magically invented a lineage and traditions? Also, the Khazar kingdom didn't fall until the 10th or 11th century. Why would Khazars have emigrated from their homeland before than?

This is not to say that some elements of the Khazar people may have been part of a later migration to Ashkenaz but this is far short of what the author is claiming.

Shmarya

I said in the beginning, that most respected researcher's claim, that the Y (male) DNA of most Ashknazi Jews is ME, and some/many Ashknazi Jews also have other non-ME DNA from there mother side. This is what the NYT article is all about.

Does Eran Elhaik claim that there is no ME DNA at all in of any Ashknazi Jew?

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 08:15 PM

If you're too illiterate to read what he clearly says, my guess is that you're too illiterate to read the NY Times article.

So maybe you should ask whoever read it to you to explain it to you.

Gefilte Fish

Before people jump to conclusions about this article, it's important to understand a bit about how to judge scientific articles:

1. Is this a peer-reviewed journal?
2. Does the author have a financial interest in espousing a particular conclusion?
3. Of the articles that are cited, are most from other peer-reviewed journals? (The author should not exclusively cite himself.)
4. Has the author himself been cited by others?

There are other factors, such as study design and statistics used, the discussion of which is beyond what I can post to the FM readership (sorry, guys...).

Having briefly read the article, I can say that this is legitimate and bears further discussion. What should not happen is a mud-slinging contest by persons who do NOT understand science. Posting that "Professor X said something different and he has 10,000 citations, so nyah, nyah, nyah" is not helpful. Let's see what Professor X says AFTER he reads the article.

That is really what science is about---the honest exchange of ideas. Dr. Elhaik has an interesting hypothesis; it will take a few months for others in the field to read, absorb, and test it out themselves. Then, it will take a few more months for them to write the article, submit it to a journal, and have it published (or not!).

jancsibacsi

So mike katsele are you a kohen?or if you are do you know which haplogroup you belong to.

Mike Kats

I said in the beginning, that most respected researcher's claim, that the Y (male) DNA of most Ashknazi Jews is ME, and some/many Ashknazi Jews also have other non-ME DNA from there mother side. This is what the NYT article is all about.

Does Eran Elhaik claim that there is no ME DNA at all in of any Ashknazi Jew?

Shmarya

Shmarya, in the previous post you yelled that his citation's are more then all other's combined. I have proven, that EACH of the other researcher's from leading universities have much more citations, and you lied about it.

I will let the reader's decide who is a giant and who is a nobody; who is a liar and who is not.

LOL loser

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 07:32 PM

Moron.

What you've done is show that a researcher whose work help support this more recent study and which is the least flagrant of all the previous studies has a lot of citations.

You've done nothing to show that Osterer or any of the other ones match up, and you have what, five hours or so to play around with Google scholar to do it?

You're a liar, Mike and a loser.

Toddle off, troll.

Mike Kats

Shmarya, in the previous post you yelled that his citation's are more then all other's combined. I have proven, that EACH of the other researcher's from leading universities have much more citations, and you lied about it.

I will let the reader's decide who is a giant and who is a nobody; who is a liar and who is not.

LOL loser

JessicaR

Oh, my dear. This news, if true, is full of social and political ramifications that are disturbing.

1. If Israeli Jews and Palestinians had indeed shared a common male ancestor, as several studies reported, this would perhaps provide an ideological basis for peace. If Jews and Palestinians are related, they could both claim a right to the land and try to work out an equitable arrangement for sharing it. It looks like that hope is gone.

2. Think about the irony of how many Jews died or were severely persecuted for allegedly killing Christ. Now, it looks like they weren't even Middle Eastern and had no connection whatsoever, not even an ancestral one, with this part of history. Of course, the notion of collective and inherited guilt is always evil, but now it is ironic as well.

Shmarya

The reason no major researcher rebuffed him yet is, because science it’s not like politics where they go back in forth with claims and talking points. But maybe with time they will publish new findings which will agree or disagree with him. Until then common sense dictates to go with the giant’s.

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 04:31 PM

HE (himself) claims that the previews research was disproved. It’s like a smuk will claim that Einstein’s research was disproved. It means nothing to me, because of Einstein’s reputation vs his. Same think here

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 04:35 PM


You are an unmitigated ass and a moron.

He is a "giant," moron.

More than that, he's at one of the leading research universities in the world, and no one – not one – of the researchers you call giants has issued a peep to discredit what he wrote.

And if you knew anything about science – and you clearly don't – you'd know that scientists regularly give quotes on studies to newspapers and magazines, and they wrote popular articles attacking scholarly articles they dislike.

They often do that as they wait for their longer peer-reviewed rebuttals to be published.

But it seems there ar no such peer-reviewed rebuttals yet in the works.

And that would also tell you something – if you had a brain, that is.

jancsibacsi

As i wrote before in my group we have a coordinator who wrote in a journal ,the geneticists came to the conclusion since there are 2 major kohenet group the j1 and the j2 that there was more then one paternal line to the kohenet that it wasnt aaron only there were others and aaron isnt the only one so here we see that what we learn from the toreh is different from reality.

Mike Kats

HE (himself) claims that the previews research was disproved. It’s like a smuk will claim that Einstein’s research was disproved. It means nothing to me, because of Einstein’s reputation vs his. Same think here

Mike Kats

The reason no major researcher rebuffed him yet is, because science it’s not like politics where they go back in forth with claims and talking points. But maybe with time they will publish new findings which will agree or disagree with him. Until then common sense dictates to go with the giant’s.

Shmarya

Again, I’m inclined to agree with the 20 or so researches who do see a major link to the ME, and we established already that each of them are giants relative to this one.
If a few (10) well respected researches will agree with him then I will change my mind. If a few respected researches will claim Armstrong was not on the moon, I will agree with them. Until then he can join the researches who claim the Holocaust was a lie.

Shmarya be well and sorry for the insults, CU around
Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 04:24 PM


Idiot.

That isn't how science works.

Their work has been disproved, Mikey. It's now up to them to either prove the now study is wrong or accept it.

But because you are an ignoramus and a troll and completely dishonest, the concept of searching for truth as opposed to protecting religious doctrine is wholly foreign to you.

Mike Kats

Again, I’m inclined to agree with the 20 or so researches who do see a major link to the ME, and we established already that each of them are giants relative to this one.
If a few (10) well respected researches will agree with him then I will change my mind. If a few respected researches will claim Armstrong was not on the moon, I will agree with them. Until then he can join the researches who claim the Holocaust was a lie.

Shmarya be well and sorry for the insults, CU around

Shmarya

Again, Goldstien clearly said: The Y (male) is ME, the rest is a mixture.

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 04:04 PM

Mike, you're too dumb to understand what Goldstein said, or to grasp that lots of these studies contradicted each other, and that the reason for that seems to be that researchers found what they were looking for rather than what was actually there.

But you can rectify those contradictions, it appears, by doing what Elhaik did.

And so far, after four months since the paper's pre-release, not one leading geneticist has refuted him, and NONE of the authors of those previous studies have refuted him.

So far, the biggest objections to his study have come from Israeli propagandists like Dore Gold, who outright misrepresented what the study is and what it shows, and from people who sell DNA tests to Jews looking to trace themselves back to King David or Aharon HaKohen.

And, quite frankly, this speaks volumes about what is probably right about Elhaik's study.

Mike Kats

Shmarya, my guess is your DNA (male and Female) is NOT ME at all. Just from some wild Cossack group

Mike Kats

BTW, Goldstien refer's only to the Ashknazi DNA, not Sfardim who are much more ME

Mike Kats

Again, Goldstien clearly said: The Y (male) is ME, the rest is a mixture.

Shmarya

I said it many times before that THE MALE IS MIDDLE EASTERN BUT THE FEMALE IS A MIXTURE, look at my post 3 hours ago.

Yes, let the reader's decide who is lying

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 04:01 PM

You're just too dumb for words, "Mike."

Mike Kats

I said it many times before that THE MALE IS MIDDLE EASTERN BUT THE FEMALE IS A MIXTURE, look at my post 3 hours ago.

Yes, let the reader's decide who is lying

Shmarya

Mike Kats, the haredi troll and moron, cites the authors of a study reported in the NY Times in 2002 to show that some of them have more citations than our researcher does.

But what the lying haredi troll Mike Kats doesn't tell you is what those researchers concluded:http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/14/science/in-dna-new-clues-to-jewish-roots.html

A new study now shows that the women in nine Jewish communities from Georgia, the former Soviet republic, to Morocco have vastly different genetic histories from the men. In each community, the women carry very few genetic signatures on their mitochondrial DNA, a genetic element inherited only through the female line. This indicates that the community had just a small number of founding mothers and that after the founding event there was little, if any, interchange with the host population. The women's identities, however, are a mystery, because, unlike the case with the men, their genetic signatures are not related to one another or to those of present-day Middle Eastern populations.

The new study, by Dr. David Goldstein, Dr. Mark Thomas and Dr. Neil Bradman of University College in London and other colleagues, appears in The American Journal of Human Genetics this month. Dr. Goldstein said it was up to historians to interpret the genetic evidence. His own speculation, he said, is that most Jewish communities were formed by unions between Jewish men and local women, though he notes that the women's origins cannot be genetically determined.In other words, you lying moronic piece of crap, the researchers you cite as having more citations than ours would AGREE with ours.

But the researchers who found all those unique Jewish genes – some of whom make a good living selling DNA kits to genealogy buffs. What about them? They are the ones I was referring to, "Mikey."

Mike Kats

"Y is the male DNA and its pointing to the ME, and my guess is that the rest is a mixture of both"

Mike Kats

Shamray you are terribly wrong, here are the number's.

The new study, by Dr. David Goldstein, Dr. Mark Thomas and Dr. Neil Bradman of University College in London and other colleagues

Part of the NYT article:

Noting that the Y chromosome points to a Middle Eastern origin of Jewish communities and the mitochondrial DNA to a possibly local origin, Dr. Goldstein said that the composition of ordinary chromosomes, which carry most of the genes, was impossible to assess.

"My guess," Dr. Goldstein said, "is that the rest of the genome will be a mixture of both."

Source New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/14/science/in-dna-new-clues-to-jewish-roots.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm)

Dr. David Goldstein has a total of 24456 citation's, and a total of 18280 since 2007.

Dr. Mark Thomas has a total of 5437 and 3255 since 2007


Dr. Neil Bradman has 930 citation's

More to come...

MM

Of course, it seems odd the ruling elite would convert and the masses wouldn't...maybe Wikipedia is wrong about this.

Posted by: Eli, what me messiah? | December 30, 2012 at 01:18 PM

No, this is not odd--it's typical. Take for example the conversion of the Anglo-Saxons. King AEthelberht of Kent was a pagan married to a Christian Frankish woman who had a chaplain in her entourage. Through his wife, AEthelberht became interested in Christianity and asked Pope Gregory I for missionaries. The Pope dispatched Augustine (later St. Augustine of Canterbury). Within a year of Augustine's arrival in 597 AD, Aethelberht had converted. That began the top down conversion of the Anglo-Saxons, although it took a hundred years or so for the conversion process to be complete, and even then pre-Christian beliefs and practices persisted in the countryside. Both 'pagan' and 'heathen' have original root meanings of those who reside in the countryside, in rural areas, peasantry.

There is an interesting insight into conversion in The Song of Roland composed in the context of the First Crusade. In the poem Charlemagne and his followers are engaged in a campaign against the Saracens in Spain, and the main event recounted is a battle at Roncesvalle in the Pyrenees. (In fact this battle actually took place, but Charlemagne's adversary was the Basques, nothing to do with Muslims.) After much going-on the Saracen city under the leadership of Queen Bramimonde surrenedered, and the lives of the inhabitants who accepted conversion to Christianity were spared. However, Queen Bramimonde herself was held captive and returned to France in the hope that she would make a sincere, non-forced conversion to Christiantiy which she did--she was baptized Juliane. Of course, none of this is historically accurate, but it does illuminate the attitude toward conversion in late 11th century Europe at the time of the First Crusade. That is, true conversion would come from the ruling elite, while change in the religion of the masses was determined by force from the outside or by pressure from internal leadership. If such force or pressure did not exist, presumably the masses, left to their own devices, preserved the status quo.

No one ever seems to mention it, but of course the Arabs and Islam originated in the Arabian Pensinsula. Their presence in the Middle East and North Africa came by way of military action and forced conversion. What are now Syria and Turkey were at the time of Mohammed's birth staunchly Christian, and Constantinople was Christian until it fell to the Turks in 1453. The Arabs are in the Middle East by right of conquest, just as the Israelis are in the settlements. Historically (and even genetically) the Arabs have little right to complain.

Mike Kats

let me do the research of ALL noted researcher's involved, and I will posted here latter.

Shmarya

Does anyone mind to post a link to his citation page?

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 03:05 PM

Moron.

Someone already has but in typical troll fashion, you ignored it.

Go back and read the last few comments, Mikey.

Mike Kats

Does anyone mind to post a link to his citation page?

Mike Kats

Shmarya, I did, I have not seen any evidence that this guy is more credible then most of the other researchers (let alone, combined).

Readers, check it out

Jeff

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 02:39 PM

Exhibit A.

SkepticalYid

Posted by: Garnel Ironheart | December 30, 2012 at 02:14 PM

If you had a fraction of the scientific education you claim, you'd admit that this article's conclusions are being distorted by many posters- including yourself. You're nothing but a poseur.

SkepticalYid

i promised myself I wouldn't post on this anymore. The irrational responses are tiresome. But.. the man has over 1700 citations for his research. 1754 citations in just 6 years is mind boggling. It means he's an exceptional scientist.

http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=-gZa-KkAAAAJ&hl=en

jancsibacsi

Mike Kats-What is important here is the ydna which only the male has if you want to test it go to ftdna and it costs about 99 dollars to test youreself i did and the results are fascinating i proved to be a kohen even had 2 arabs for a distant match .

Mike Kats

"I realize you're a socially isolated blogger who sits in his basement all day surrounded by empty bags of Doritos while obsessing over how to blame Jews"

LOL

I would say "obsessing blaming orthodox and centre/right-wing Jews".

Shmarya

Shmarya, please provide evidence that this researcher has more "academic citations" then many (maybe 20) other researches mentioned in in many other articles, claiming that while some Ashknazi Jews have the female Kazahri DNA, but most Jews (especially the Male DNA, and most DNA of non-Ashknazi Jews) are linked to the Middle East.

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 02:18 PM

Try Google Scholar, "Mike."

Shmarya

Posted by: Garnel Ironheart | December 30, 2012 at 02:14 PM

To say that you are approaching this dishonestly is a significant understatement.

A normal person, as opposed to a propagandist, ask what the implications are if it holds up,and leave it at that until those leading geneticists who have been in hiding for the past several months finally decide to try to refute it.

But if they don't – or if what we get is propaganda, not science – then what you should do is readjust your view of history.

But again, this involves intellectual honesty, something you clearly lack.

Jeff

That and the damn Captcha. Five tries it took me on that last one.

Jeff

You see, people, this is part of the reason I stopped participating. Frum troll = waste of oxygen.

Mike Kats

Shmarya, please provide evidence that this researcher has more "academic citations" then many (maybe 20) other researches mentioned in in many other articles, claiming that while some Ashknazi Jews have the female Kazahri DNA, but most Jews (especially the Male DNA, and most DNA of non-Ashknazi Jews) are linked to the Middle East.

Ynot

The ethnic background of the Jewish people, like most other human beings, is probably a mixture of various ethnic groupings. Human history is a history of migration, that includes all people. To begin we have two basic issues, first that Judaism began somewhere in the Middle East region. Second that the Khazar Empire was primarily Jewish. But there are some other facts that should be considered. In Sephardic genealogy the Roman Empire was 15% Jewish and the Eastern Roman Empire was 25% Jewish particularly in Turkey. Turkey is closely located to the Khazar region. Not only did the Roman Empire have a large Jewish percentage, but Roman citizens were converting to Judaism because they preferred the spirituality over the materialism and violence of Paganism.

Regardless, with the Eastern Roman Empire at 25% Jewish and the entire Roman Empire at 15% Jewish, watch out here comes the dirty little secret of western historians, Islam. Islam spreads throughout the Eastern Roman Empire forcing Jews and Orthodox Christians north into Europe. I have yet to hear anyone explain what happened to the 25% Jewish Turkish population as Islam invaded north? Were they forced north into Eastern Europe? The Inquisition in Spain and other pogroms then forces Jews to migrate East and into the Turkish region were there was more tolerance.

Judaism is much older in Europe than Christianity. It therefore makes perfect sense that after several thousand years of the Jewish people living in Europe, often subject to the discrimination of dominant regional ethnic groups, that the Jewish people are highly integrated. After thousands of years of conversions and intermarriages Jewish genes would be largely European. In many their genes would be exclusively European. In some there may be the evidence of the early origins in the Middle East.

Regardless of the real facts, our genes are likely a mixture of the various ethnic groups that comprise our history.

Garnel Ironheart

> This study was published in a leading peer reviewed journal by a noted researcher with more academic citations than most of the other researches that came before have combined.

Shmarya, I realize you're a socially isolated blogger who sits in his basement all day surrounded by empty bags of Doritos while obsessing over how to blame Jews for everything from global warming to Stalin's purges but do try to process.

First of all, there is no reason to think Jews would be a genetically homogenous group because of intermarriage, conversions, rapes, forced mingling with the surrounding populations, etc.

Secondly, this is one study which I doubt you are qualified to critique on a scientific basis but are instead relying on Ha'aretz, the paper whose editor has "wet dreams" about Israel being raped by its Arab neighbours, to tell you about.

Third, if you read the actual scientific literature you'll see this is not cut and dried like this ONE study claims.

Fourth, genetic studies always take a back seat to recorded history and any good geneticist will tell you this. Ashkenazic Jewish history is well documented enough to refute any genetic claims that we came from the Khazars. You're so convinced we made up God and the Torah that you're convinced we made up Ashkenazim as well.

What's next? A piece explained why Jewish usurers and landlords are the real reason those evil Ukrainian Jews had it coming to them during Tach and Tat?

Shmarya

This study from this young researcher doesn't mean anything relative to many other studies from respected universities.

Mike, I realize you're not honest and not bright and not well educated, and you are a troll, but do try to process.

This study was published in a leading peer reviewed journal by a noted researcher with more academic citations than most of the other researches that came before have combined.

The reason no one would respond to Ha'aretz is because there is no response, Mikey.

Mike Kats

Harold: Right on

Sem

Haaretz and Shmarye are extreme lefties, they are as ugly and blind as the extreme right.

Harold F

The self hating Jews and anti-Semites are always playing the Kahsry card like this was the fact in all Jews. To me they belong to in the same group as the Mosed in CIA did 911; the holocaust is a lie; Elvis is a life on so on.

It should be mentioned that the claim that Neil Armstrong did not step on the moon belongs in that same group, too.

Uzi Weingarten

Having read CAMERA's reports over the years, I have a healthy distrust for anything Haaretz writes that can be seen as serving its agenda. CAMERA has shown repeatedly how Haaretz literally falsifies things in order to cast Israel in a bad light.

This is especially true in the English edition, which as CAMERA shows often deviates from the original Hebrew and falsifies things.

So, to the issue at hand:
Haaretz says they contacted all those geneticists and none was willing to comment--maybe, maybe not. Who knows? Haaretz has been so discredited in my eyes in matters of politics and Judaism that it is hard to take them seriously.

Yoel Mechanic

I sometimes go to neo nazi web sites and i do not see links to FM post a few please.

Posted by: seymour | December 30, 2012 at 07:38 AM
----------------------------------------
Seymour, I only mention this because you seem to be open to reason. The way you find thes links is to do site searches on the fascist website, and you will find plenty.

site:stormfront.org failedmessiah.com

From here you can share more if you wish.

Maskil

and no population group has ever lived in total isolation from other population groups

Wait ... what? Not even Australian Aboriginals?

Mike Kats

This study from this young researcher doesn't mean anything relative to many other studies from respected universities.

To me it’s like some young smuk has evidence that Einstein was wrong.

What we know for sure is, that you mother’s father was a sadistic killer and thief (Al Capone of St Paul –check it out) and the mean spirit is in your DNA.

If you want to ban me, go ahead, it will just show how weak and emotional unstable, you are.

By the way, it’s time to bring on some research from some researcher, somewhere, that the holocaust is a lie

Harold F

I agree that a non-Jew who goes through a conversionary process is a Jew, period. That's why I hate people(Jews and non-Jews)who tell Jews by choice they not "really Jewish." No such such concept exists in Judaism. Either a person is a Jew or not a Jew.

I know that as far back as 1976, the Patais in their book,The Myth of the Jewish,believed that there was a possiblity of a Khazar element in the genetic makeup of the Ashkenazim but they maintained that almost all the Jewish population groups have a common genetic link to the Middle East.

I know why the Identity Christians love the Khazar Theory. The premise of Christian Identity is that the Northwest Europe peoples are the descendants of the ten tribes of Israel (the true Jews so to speak and the "so called Jews" are frauds.

It should be noted that no genetic link has been found between the Middle East and the Christian Identity adherents.

The Arabs use the Khazar Theory to try destroy the Jewish link to Israel. The UN partition of Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state in 1947 has no validity then. Sure, G-d gave the land to the Jews but they're not Jews.

What's point of this argument about the Khazar Theory anyway? Let's assume it's correct. Are the Jews in Israel going to suddenly pack their bags for the territory of the Khazar Kingdom? They're in Israel and no one is going to make them leave.


Eli, what me messiah?

Posted by: MM | December 30, 2012 at 10:01 AM

MM, agree fully.

Barry, you make a fair point about language but cultural evolution (language) does not necessarily correlate with genetics. My dangerously quick education in Khazar history via Wikipedia indicates that only the ruling elites (aristocracy) converted. This may not have provided critical mass for language change, although the ruling elite would have had access to greater reproductive opportunities.

Of course, it seems odd the ruling elite would convert and the masses wouldn't...maybe Wikipedia is wrong about this.

Shmarya

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 01:06 PM

Please.

Stop trolling or I'll ban you.

What this new study does is refute these previous studies, Mikey, by rectifying the the contradictions between them.

If you weren't a troll – and a bad one at that – and a cretin, you'd know that.

Now toddle off.

Mike Kats

Advanced genetic testing, including Y-DNA and mtDNA haplotyping, of modern Jewish communities around the world, has helped to determine which of the communities are likely to descend from the Israelites and which are not, as well as to establish the degrees of separation between the groups. Important studies archived here include the University College London study of 2002, Ariella Oppenheim's study of 2001, Ariella Oppenheim's study of 2000, Michael Hammer's study of 2000, Doron Behar's study of 2008, Steven Bray's study of 2010, and others.
Key findings:

The main ethnic element of Ashkenazim (German and Eastern European Jews), Sephardim (Spanish and Portuguese Jews), Mizrakhim (Middle Eastern Jews), Juhurim (Mountain Jews of the Caucasus), Italqim (Italian Jews), and most other modern Jewish populations of the world is Israelite.

Ashkenazim also descend, in a smaller way, from European peoples from the northern Mediterranean region and even less from Slavs and Khazars. The non-Israelite Y-DNA haplogroups include Q1b1a (typically Central Asian) and R1a1 (typically Eastern European but the most common Ashkenazic variant comes from somewhere in Asia, probably Central Asia).

Dutch Jews from the Netherlands also descend from northwestern Europeans.
Sephardim also descend, in a smaller way, from various non-Israelite peoples.

Georgian Jews (Gruzinim) are a mix of Georgians and Israelites.

Yemenite Jews (Temanim) are a mix of Yemenite Arabs and Israelites.

Moroccan Jews, Algerian Jews, and Tunisian Jews are mainly Israelites.

Libyan Jews are mainly Israelites who may have mixed somewhat with Berbers.

Ethiopian Jews are almost exclusively Ethiopian, with little or no Israelite ancestry.

Bene Israel Jews and Cochin Jews of India have much Indian ancestry in their mtDNA.
Palestinian Arabs are probably partly Israelite.


Studies of Cohens and Levites

Key findings:

The Cohen Modal Haplotype is found among many Jewish populations of the world, including Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and the Bene Israel of India.

The Cohen Modal Haplotype, which belongs to haplogroup J, was a component of the ancient Israelite population, and especially common among the Cohens (priests of the Temple in Jerusalem).

The Cohen Modal Haplotype is not exclusively found among Jews, but rather is also found among Kurds, Armenians, Italians, Palestinian Arabs, and a few other peoples.

About half of Ashkenazic Levites possess Eastern European non-Israelite haplotypes belonging to the R1a1 haplogroup. This is almost never found among Sephardic Levites, and may have been introduced into the Ashkenazic Levite lines by Slavs or Khazars who converted to Judaism.

Mike Kats

While it’s true that many Ashkenazi Jews have DNA chromosome’s that link them to other populations outside of the Middle East (possible the Kashres), but the majority of Ashknazi Jews have links to the Middle East. Especially the Male chromosomes are predominantly Middle Eastern.

(The theory is, that some Jewish males married non Jewish females who converted to Jewdizem).

According to Wiki:

Studies of autosomal DNA, which look at the entire DNA mixture, have become increasingly important as the technology develops. They show that Jewish populations have tended to form relatively closely related groups in independent communities, with most in a community sharing significant ancestry in common. For Jewish populations of the diaspora, the genetic composition of Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi Jewish populations show a predominant amount of shared Middle Eastern ancestry.

According to Behar, the most parsimonious explanation for this shared Middle Eastern ancestry is that it is "consistent with the historical formulation of the Jewish people as descending from the ancient Hebrew and Israelite residents of the Levant" and "the dispersion of the people of ancient Israel throughout the Old World".

End Wiki

Furthermore, the majority of KOHONIM (Including Ashkenazim and Sfardim) share the same DNA (not found by non-kohen Jews), and that DNA has a linkage to mainly other Middle Eastern populations. Its called the “Aron” DNA.

Wiki: More recent research, using a larger number of Y-STR markers to gain higher resolution more specific genetic signatures, has indicated that about half of contemporary Jewish Kohanim, who share Y-chromosomal haplogroup J1c3 (also called J-P58), do indeed appear to be very closely related. A further approximately 15% of Kohanim fall into a second distinct group, sharing a different but similarly tightly related ancestry. This second group fall under haplogroup J2a (J-M410). A number of other smaller lineage groups are also observed. Only one of these haplogroups could indicate ancestry from Y-chromosomal Aaron.

End Wiki

The self hating Jews and anti-Semites are always playing the Kahsry card like this was the fact in all Jews. To me they belong to in the same group as the Mosed in CIA did 911; the holocaust is a lie; Elvis is a life on so on.

Shem Tov

This is old news. Everyone knows that European Jews are Khazar converts, that's nothing new. Many books has been written on this by researchers a few who were European jews as well. I find it nearly impossible for such a people to be related to the Ancient people of Israel (if such a people ever existed). The harsh weather conditions of that time would have decimated a European and melanin lacking population.

Next artwork from civilizations close to that region portrays the inhabitants as "Arab looking (think Yemeni Jews) to some looking down right negro. Next we have genetics, which never lies, Europeans have no ties to middle eastern Jews, none.

Even though i am Jewish, i am well aware that history has been rewritten a few times, and jews may have just been a small clan of people that invented their god and everything else along with it; but none of this matters, for even if they are Khazars, at some point they converted and we recognize converts as jews.

Shmarya is of Khazzer Descent

Come on. You know that no honest academic considers Ha'aretz worth responding to. For that matter, that scurrilous rag may not have even asked anyone to respond.

tiron

sensible discussions of the papers methods:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/ashkenazi-jews-are-probably-not-descended-from-the-khazars/

http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.il/2012/08/khazar-origins-of-european-jews-finally.html

jancsibacsi

Lubavitchers are Christians--Why do you answer seymours question with a question are you afraid to answer seymour?

Lubavitchers are Christians


I sometimes go to neo nazi web sites and i do not see links to FM post a few please.

Posted by: seymour | December 30, 2012 at 07:38 AM

Why do you go to neo nazi websites?

Yoel Mechanic

Jews are a nation ,not a religion. We have laws of citizenship and laws of immigration or conve rsion

Doesn't matter where someone comes from, but have they met the citxenship test.

Posted by: Jake | December 30, 2012 at 12:41 AM
-------------------------------------------
A tribal nation at that. Tribal law is the definition of who is a Jew, however interesting genetic studies might be, they have no bearing on legal decisions.

And look at all the hypocrisy! 100% of Muslims are descended from converts (reverts as they prefer to call them). Yet they are happy to claim ownership over vast areas of land solely on the basis of Islamic law. Suddenly Jews don't have a land connection because of some genetic markers from somewhere?

Whether I think their (Islamic) claims right or wrong is not the point. The point is the incredible hypocrisy to use genetics as a basis of land claims when for thousands of years claims have been made without any genetic issues brought up (they probably didn't even know what a genome was 1300 years ago at the time of the Islamic conquest). And everyone knows that vast migrations and tribal mixing takes place. Suddenly we are supposed to be worried about genetic markers?

We Jews recognize conversion, and if others don't like that then they can just keep it to themselves, we are not interested. It has always been like that.

maven

I said the same thing when the first "positive" studies were published. We know that there was a huge influx of Italian converts around the time of the destruction of the temple, as confirmed by census at the time (see Feldman, Jew and Gentile in the Ancient World), and it is well known that giyur was routine in many communities in late antiquity; the real reason the giyur was made difficult in early modern Europe was because the Church was concerned about it and levied communal punishment when it occurred too frequently.

SkepticalYid

Posted by: Harold F | December 30, 2012 at 10:20 AM

It never fails. Obama/Black enters the debate no matter what when some of you find your beliefs threatened. Ultimately we all come out of Africa 10s of thousands of years ago. Newsflash for you, genius, most of the other groups that share the Cohen Y gene are Central Asian and African. Deal with it.

The researcher is suggesting that one subset of Jews are primarily descended from an empire that converted over 1,000 years ago. Big deal.

Shlomo

Now I know you are antisemite Took up the theory propagated by antisemitic and Arabists websites around the world that became popular specifically to delegitimize the connection of Jewish people to the land of Israel.
When reading your site, I always wondered who is that guy on the street of the Internet yelling insults to one of the most famous rabbis of the 20th century. Now after reading this, all I can say is, "there is nothing to see here folks. Just an old self-hating cast-out Jew. Move along".

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