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December 30, 2012


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Harold F

That's funny. They don't look Khazarian.

R. Wisler

And the European Jews believe that their ancestors were at Sinai and suffered slavery under the Egyptians? But we don't have Middle Eastern racial characteristics!!!

A New Study

A new study shows that people are likely to believe any idiocy, provided it begins with the words "a new study shows..."!!!

Garnel Ironheart

Right, so we have a fully documented history for at last 2200 years or so. We can trace every community's origins. We know how everyone arrived everywhere they did. And along comes this geneticist and decides we're not really Jewish?
Bovine faeces!

Harold F

There are lies, damn lies, and new studies.


"... he used data from populations that are genetically similar to the Khazars, including Georgians, Armenians and Caucasians, populations that Elhaik says have all come from the same genetic soup."

Alas, if this is an accurate report of what Elhaik said, not one word is true! Is it possible that Elhaik isn't aware of the fact that the Armenians are an Indo-European people (with a possible admixture of Elamite) who were in the Caucasus long before the Turkic Khazars ever reached that area. The Georgians are a South Caucasian people, again, who were in present-day Georgia for far more than 500 years before the Khazars invaded. By "Caucasians," I assume he means North Caucasian peoples (who are not related to the South Caucasians). And it's rather easy to explain anything by reference to the Khazars, about whom very little is known. It's generally believed that the number of Jewish Khazars was very small. Finally, although the leadership of the Khazars was Turkic (not at all related to the above-mentioned peoples), the Khazars were really a horde, a nomadic group made up of various (often unrelated) ethnic groups. And, finally, it's well-known that there were Jews in Georgia before the common era, i.e., long before the Khazars ever arrived there.

Talking Donkey

Elhaik is a crackpot, and a hypocrite. He claims that "other researchers decided what conclusion they wanted to find, and then they set off to find evidence to support it." But that appears to be exactly what he's done.

One example would be his really silly claim that modern Armenians would serve as a good proxy for medieval Khazars. In fact, the Khazars never ruled Armenia, and we've got excellent records of what life was like in Armenia during the Khazar era. None of these records suggest mass conversions to Judaism. Or any conversions, for that matter. The Armenians are actually an ancient Near-Eastern people who have no relationship to the Turkic Khazars.

Another would be his really silly assumption that similarities between Persian Jews and Ashkenazim suggests that the Khazar converts populated all of these areas. It's far more likely that these similarities reflect gene flow, trade, and or an ancient common origin of these various communities


The Internet is rife with websites dedicated to "exposing" Ashkenazim like myself as impostors. These sites- many of which are run by neo-Nazis, ironically and fatuously make a play on the very word thusly: "AshkeNAZI's".
(The fools don't realize that by using a title they revere as a pejorative for "Jews", they admit that their Teutonic cultural heroes committed acts which have rendered them barbaric, in which light they seek to cast us Jews.)
Firstly, we have almost no information about the Khazars outside of legends, and a few writings and artifacts. But we do know that the Ashkenazim have the most Kohanim and Levi'im per capita among all Jews, and that does not corroborate the theory that Ashkenazim are descended from converts.
Secondly, Professor Daniel Sperber shows in his "Minhagei Yisrael" that the Ashkenazic rite stems directly from the Talmud Yerushalmi, whereas the Sephardim are heirs to the Babylonian tradition.
As for Khazar artifacts: The Kievan Letter is thought to be authentic, but scholars have always been ambivalent about the epistle of King Yosef to Chasdai ibn Shaprut for which there exists no original. Still, you will find in the latter a geneology going back to King Bulan which may be a clue that the writing is authentic. But it is still not verifiable.
I remember walking to Shul years ago in The Bronx and being called a "Khazar" by a black man. He was shooting hoops at a playground and could not resist the temptation to "stick it to the jewboy". When I turned to see who had yelled at me, there stood he, basketball in hand with a beaming smile upon his face. Jew-haters are extremely unhappy with themselves and too weak to take stock and assume responsibility for their own personal failures, so they seek a scapegoat- the Jew- whom they have identified as the Great Usurper.
Unfortunately, gullible Jews are now buying into the Khazar story, and their words are imbibed thirstily by the anti-semites, whose prejudice has but pre-disposed them to accept these studies as unalloyed truth.

Atheodox Jew

Sand wrote the book "The Invention of the Jewish People.” It has now been translated into 22 languages

22 languages is a testament to people practically salivating at the chance to delegitimize Jews and the Jewish claim to Israel. Which is exactly what they'll try to do with this study.

What you have to watch in ANY study is not the findings but the THEREFORE. Jews are genetically closer to the Khazars and therefore...? Jews are genetically Middle Eastern and therefore...?

Point being, EVERYONE needs to stop the idiocy of justifying Jewish claims (or non-claims) based on "blood". Are we "pure-bloods" or "mud-bloods"? is an infantile - and dangerous - question.

Talking Donkey

Beyond the silliness of this guy's theories and presumed connections, there's also the outright silliness of his claim that every single geneticist whose ever studied the issue has been lying or falsifying data. That's quite a charge to make, particularly given how respected each of them is in the field. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. He doesn't supply it.


"[They are] primarily of Western European origin, which is rooted in the Roman Empire, and Middle Eastern origin, whose source is probably Mesopotamia

Well, that would appear to contradict his conclusion...

although it is possible that part of that component can be attributed to Israeli Jews

... and I don't see how that follows.

I recently watched Henry Louis Gates' Finding Your Roots, and each time he had the lab work up a genetic profile for someone with any known Jewish ancestry at all, it pointed to a Middle Eastern origin.


Jews are a nation ,not a religion. We have laws of citizenship and laws of immigration or conve rsion

Doesn't matter where someone comes from, but have they met the citxenship test.

Harold F

The person responsible for mainstreaming the Khazar theory was Arthur Koestler, a self-hating Jew. He had the bizarre idea if one could prove the Jews were not "Semites" then the word antiSemitism has no meaning and everyone will be filled with love for the so-called Jews. So,in 1976, he wrote a book entitled "The Thirteenth Tribe" in which he claimed the Ashkenazism were Khazars in origin and we'd all live happenly ever after if everyone knew about it.

Of course, that's not how it worked out. The people called antiSemites cited him with sheer delight. Now, they weren't attacking the "Jews" but a band of Khazar frauds.

Koestler died in 1983. I wish I could have said the following to him: " Nice going, Arthur, with friends like you, we'll never need enemies."

Garnel Ironheart

And if you don't believe me:


Shmarya is of Khazzer Descent

There were not enough Khazars who converted to produce the numbers of Ashkenazim who exist today, let alone the numbers who would have existed had the Chmelnicki massacres and the Shoah never taken place.


Sounds like what he's suggesting is that a lot of local interbreeding happened. Put a Morrocan, Ethiopian , Ukrainian, Yemenite and German Jew size by side . It's hard to deny the truth of that. He's reinterpreting genetic drift to deny common ancestry. That suggests an agenda on his part.


And if you don't believe me:


Posted by: Garnel Ironheart | December 30, 2012 at 01:16 AM

With absolutely no respect at all, citing Dore Gold is joke.

He's a propagandist, not a scholar, and his argument – if you can call it that – isn't based on what this researcher found because Gold – can't refute that.

Instead, Gold attacks Ha'aretz for reporting what the researcher found, and he does so without noting that NO geneticist was willing to refute the researcher – not one.

And there's a reason for that – they can't.

But what you and almost every other comment here does is exactly what the researcher criticized YU's Osterer and others for doing – you decided on what the truth must me and excluded evidence that doesn't support that truth. You shot the arrow and then drew the target around it after it hit the barn.

Some people here are doing this naively.

You are simply lying.


The study is quite a bit more complex then Haaretz would have one believe:
" Our later analyses yielded a complex ancestry with a slightly dominant Near Eastern-Caucasus ancestry, large Southern European and Middle Eastern ancestries, and a minor Eastern European contribution; the latter two differentiated Central and Eastern European Jews (Figures 4, 5 and Table 1)."

In other words, he sees Eastern European and Central European Jews as very distinct groups, genetically.


It is a common claim among antisemites and people like Elhaik and Sand that the present day Ashkenazi (European origin) Jews are not the descendents of Biblical Jews but rather come from medieval Khazar converts. Indeed, this is the basis of the "Identity" movement. If you can claim that an entire people are imposters, then you can deny them everything. This theory was also the basis of the antisemetic film "The Other Israel".

The logic goes:
1) If modern Jews are not really Jews they have no claim on the Land of Israel.
2) If they are not the people of God they have no place in God's plans.
3) If these people are not really Jews it cannot be antisemitic to hate them.

Apart from the historical evidence proving that a vast majority of present-day Jews did not descend from the Khazars, there is also genetic evidence. Among the Jews there is the class of priests called Cohanim who served in the Temple and who now carry surnames such as "Cohen" and many variations on that name. Cohanim comprise of about 5% of the male Jewish population. There are strict rules of marriage for the Cohanim and the title is only passed through the male line. Also, converts cannot become Cohanim (but their children will be if they have a Cohen as a father). The priestly line is descended directly from the Aaron of the Bible so it is expected that all Cohanim would carry some common genetic features.

In the first published work on this issue (1) it was found that 54% of self-identified Cohanim had common genetic features that were revealed by analysis of their DNA. Specifically, a component of the Y-chromosone, an allele YAP+ DYS19, was identified that showed up only 1.5% of the time in Cohanim but 18.4% of the time in a random selection of non-Cohanim Jews and there were other genetic differences apparent as well. (The same differences were apparent for both Sephardic and Askhenazic Jews also proving a common origin pre-dating a later split between the two groups.)

The large number of Cohanim among present-day Jews and the fact that they have a common genetic lineage traceable to Israel at the time of the Temple, demonstrates that modern Jews come from a population pool derived from Israel and not from the Khazars. The Khazars could not have developed their own lineage of Cohanim anyway, since being a Cohen is a male-inherited status which converts (the Khazars) could not have obtained.

I suggest readers also Google "Cohen Modal Haplotype" for more information on the subject.

(1) Skorecki K; Selig S; Blazer S; Bradman R; Bradman N; Waburton PJ; Ismajlowicz M; Hammer MF (1997) Y chromosomes of Jewish priests. Nature, 385:32.


Y chromosomal analysis has been brought into question for population modeling in general, it doesn't provide enough data. One can't ignore the 45 additional chromosomes.

don't buy it

I do not buy it. We have family traditions from parent to child tracing our lineage back to the first Jewish family. The oral tradition passed on from family to family has stood the test of time.

Garnel Ironheart

> Sand wrote the book "The Invention of the Jewish People.” It has now been translated into 22 languages

Big deal. The Protocols of the Elder of Zion, which Shmarya doubtless believes is also a valid historical document because there are "scholars" out there who claim it is, is availalble in a far greater number of languages.


"Our later analyses yielded a complex ancestry with a slightly dominant Near Eastern-Caucasus ancestry, large Southern European and Middle Eastern ancestries, and a minor Eastern European contribution; the latter two differentiated Central and Eastern European Jews (Figures 4, 5 and Table 1)."

Okay, so he seems to be saying there is genetic evidence of a Near/Middle Eastern origin. The Jews may not comprise a genetic isolate, but that doesn't mean we aren't of Semitic ancestry. It merely indicates a lot of interbreeding along the way (attributable, no doubt, to the untzniusdik behavior of the harlots among the daughters of Israel!) - unless I'm not understanding what's being said.

There's also, as David mentioned, the issue of the Cohen haplogroups.


22 languages is a testament to people practically salivating at the chance to delegitimize Jews and the Jewish claim to Israel. Which is exactly what they'll try to do with this study.

Posted by: Atheodox Jew | December 30, 2012 at 12:22 AM



Posted by: Garnel Ironheart | December 30, 2012 at 05:19 AM

You claim to be a physician. If so, why not read the original article and critique it from a scientific perspective. Assuming you really have a medical background.

Shmarya is of Khazzer Descent

My zaide AH is from a large city in the Austro-Hungarian Empire that is now in Ukraine.

He could trace himself back to Spain, as can quite a few Ashkenazim, the Schneersons included. His surname, my mother's maiden name, is a giveaway for his real origins.

Mr Eran Elhaik, an ex-Israeli or the son of ex-Israelis, is probably out for revenge against the Ashkenazi establishment in Israel that relegated his parents and grandparents to third-class status and compelled him or his parents to leave Israel to get ahead.

For that, I do not blame him, but his study and the truth have only a very tenuous connection.


Why do we care about this subject?
The amount of time that I and many other Jews have spent or do spend on pondering this question and that other related question is ------ (fill in name of movie star, business person) Jewish? is such a bloody WASTE OF TIME! I have resolved to NOT care any more about Jewish identity. Instead I try to use that same precious time working, praying/davening, studying Torah, going for a walk, reading a book, being with friends, being with my girlfriend,...

Frum but normal

if there ever was a doubt that this piece of filth calling himself Shmaryah,is nothing but a self hating,jew hating,NAZI bastard this article should prove it,
here is a list of his latest post's,SHECHITA is barbarism,it should be banned,BRIS MILAH,is human mutilation,should be banned,there is no such thing as a jewish people,they are descendants of khazars,Jews are racist's,they are blood suckers,they are thieves,they are war mongers,etc,etc,
There is no doubt in my mind,had this piece of human garbage lived 70 yrs ago in Europe,
it would be non other than Shmaryah,who would be the editor in chief of the SHTURMER,
And he would have been Hitler's chief jewish KAPO in Auchwitz,where with a smile on his ugly face,he would herd his own brothers and sisters into the gas chambers,
No wonder,virtualy every neo Nazi webside has it's first link to non other than Failled Messiah


It's fascinating to see how some posters are frothing at the mouth at the mere idea that some Jews have a predominantly Khazar ancestry. Can any of you look at a Ukrainian Jew, Yemenite Jew and German Jew standing side by side and be certain they have the same genetic admixture?


Posted by: Frum but normal | December 30, 2012 at 07:09 AM

I sometimes go to neo nazi web sites and i do not see links to FM post a few please.


Posted by: seymour | December 30, 2012 at 07:38 AM

Perhaps it should have read (ab)normal.


I took a dna test and belong to the j haplogroup which is from the middle eat j1 and j2 is the kohenet group.


Posted by: jancsibacsi | December 30, 2012 at 07:42 AM

Was that just your Y chromosome or did you actually have your entire genetic inheritance tested?


Posted by: jancsibacsi | December 30, 2012 at 07:42 AM

Dude, I just did a quick check on PubMed. J2 is a predominant haplotype in southern europe, caucusus and Turkic ethnic groups. You might be part Khazar ;-)


David--I suggest readers also Google "Cohen Modal Haplotype" for more information on the subject.
As i wrote the kehenet group is the y j1 and j2,there was a study done that kohanim actually decent from more then one paternal line meaning aaron was only one of the lineage disproving to toreh that only he was the father of all kohanim.


Jansci, you can't base your conclusion solely on your Y chromosome. You have 45 others that are equally important in understanding the diversity of your ethnic heritage.


SkepticalYid--Just y thats all i needed since kohenet is paternal not maternal.


Mistake i meant to write that aaron was not the only paternal line to kohenet that thare are more then 1 father for the kohanim


SkepticalYid--You have to understand that the mother does not have the y chromosome, only the father, and thats what counts here the y chromosome


I'm not an expert but reading a bit about the Sand fellow quoted in the article suggests to me that he definitely has an agenda.


SkepticalYid- I even have a few arabs and indians in my j haplogroup distant of course thats enough for me


Jansci, these same markers are common among Persians, Bedouins, Armenians, Kurds, Turkics and Central Asians (along with a few South African tribes).


SkepticalYid---I know that but as i wrote i have some arab matches an indian who claims they went to india about a thousand years ago also those nationalyties that you mention had jews going there of course the jews decend from those areas mainly middles east as far as i am concerned as belonging to the j group shows we are from those areas originally my maternal line is another story


SkepticalYid--If the j2 group is from khazars why are there arab matches in my group?


Jansci, both haplotypes occur in some arab groups, particularly bedouins . However they are both far more common among residents of the Caucasus region. It's really impossible to understand your ancestry just from one chromosome. One could make the argument that your'e descended from the Khazar king just as easily as the "Cohen" argument. In either case, there isn't any evidence to support it based just on your Y strand. By the way, some earlier studies of Y inheritance specific to easter european Jews suggested 12% of the genetic material was of Khazar origin.


In our j group we have a coordinator and he even wrote about this in a journal and your interpretation seems of to me

Eli, what me messiah?

I find nothing surprising in this study. Given the amount of pogroms, forced migrations, rape, forced conversions & fake conversions, etc, over millennia, it would be unreasonable to expect any Jewish line to have remained a close genetic match to an ancestral line thousands of miles away.
What is remarkable is not that any genetic line has endured but that Judaism itself could survive such constant disruptions.
The meme is more powerful than the gene, in this case.

Eli, what me messiah?

Posted by: David | December 30, 2012 at 04:17 AM

David, your comment is relevant to Cohanim, for whom as you rightly note there are stricter rules applied in an attempt to preserve the lineage. It does not necessarily apply to all modern Jews who are not descendents of a Cohen.

By the way, according to Wikipedia, the origin of the Khazars is unclear.

Friar Yid

Everything I've read on this subject suggests a middle-path hypothesis is the most rational: that modern Ashkenazim are a mix of Mizrahim, Sephardim, and Khazars, who it seems . The Khazar contribution may be relatively smaller or larger depending on the family and geographical area.

As longtime Khazar researcher Kevin Alan Brook puts it: Eastern European Jews predominantly have ancestors who came from Central Europe rather than from the Khazar kingdom. The two groups (eastern and western Jews) intermarried over the centuries.

...The Ashkenazi Jews are also the direct descendants of the Israelites. Genetic tests seem to indicate that Jewish ancestry largely comes from the regions known today as Turkey, Armenia, Israel, and Iraq. ...in general, evidence from both studies is strong that most Ashkenazic Jews descend from Judeans in their paternal lineages. ...this particular possibly-Khazar ancestral strain represents a minority rather than a majority of Eastern European Jews. On the paternal side, Khazar ancestry in Ashkenazic Jews appears to have totalled between 5 and 19 percent, depending on which haplogroups one believes derive from the Khazars (there are four good possibilities). And while maternal DNA (mtDNA) studies have shown substantial links between Ashkenazi Jews and the peoples of Europe, these non-Israelite inputs into the Ashkenazi genepool still do not represent the majority of total maternal and paternal Ashkenazi ancestry, and probably only a small portion of these European inputs come from Khazar women.

...The Israelite traces among the East European Jews came from three sources: (1) Sephardic Jews fleeing Spain and Portugal and resettling in Lithuania and Poland, (2) Roman Jews, and from (3) Khazarian Jews who merged with Israelites, just as the Schechter Letter states "they became one people". The Khazars and the Israelites mixed with each other.

Are all Jews around the world descended from the Khazars? Certainly not. East European Jewish ancestry originates substantially from ancient Judea, and the same is true of most other modern Jewish populations (with the exception of groups like Libyan Jews and Ethiopian Jews). But, it is rational to conclude that some Jews also have some Khazar ancestors.

Personally, the fact that we have a "complete" oral history doesn't strike me as strong proof of anything, particularly since many Jews have little knowledge of their family history beyond four or five generations. Acknowledging that SOME mixing took place over the millennia does not invalidate Judaism.


Is it possible that Elhaik isn't aware of the fact that the Armenians are an Indo-European people (with a possible admixture of Elamite) who were in the Caucasus long before the Turkic Khazars ever reached that area.

Posted by: Hia5 | December 29, 2012 at 11:57 PM

For the record, 'Indo-European' is a linguistic term and is irrelevant when it comes to discussing genetics or 'race.' People of many different genetic backgrounds have been and are speakers of Indo-European languages. The Indo-European speakers were not and are not genetically homogeneous. Any human can learn to speak any human language.

It is ridiculous to yammer on about any sort of racial purity or purity of descent for Ashkenazic Jews or anyone else. First of all, we know all too well the dark places to which such thinking can lead. Second, we know from historical and quasi-historical records, that purity of descent just isn't so. Even in biblical accounts we read of mixed marriages and mixed descent, the descent of David from Ruth being an obvious example. In more recent times, we know that the children of Jewish women raped by, say, Cossacks, were counted as Jews. We know that Jewish men who traveled as merchants into non-Jewish communities often married local non-Jewish women who underwent conversion. We know that there has always been a mechanism for conversion and that converts were accepted into our communities and contributed to our genetic stock. Just as 'race' refers to a cultural construct, not biological/genetic one, so too does 'Jew.' We are Jews because we identify ourselves as such, because somewhere along the way our ancestors chose to identify with the Jewish community and to remain so identified in spite of the enormous price that identification sometimes exacted. And that's enough.

It is understandable that we should be interested in the lives and backgrounds of our ancestors, even the remote ones--that is a general human interest. Today we can learn things about our ancestors that we could not have learned before through the study of genetics. But to pervert that scientific knowledge into a search for reacial purity or impurity is a very bad idea. We know without taking a single DNA swab that we as Jews have a variegated ancestry. History alone tells us that.

If I judge by appearances in my own family, my mother's sisters looked like they would be at home standing in front of a yurt. My paternal grandfather (a kohen btw) was a dead ringer for Danny Thomas, a Lebanonese Catholic. I have a large number of redheads on both sides of my family--one grandmother was a carrot-top and the other had hair the color of black cherry. I myself have the fairest possible skin short of albinism, the tiniest, straightest nose imaginable (as a child I used to pull on it so it would turn into the glosious hook most of the rest of my family possessed), and eyes whose official color designation is 'steel.' I have been taken for every nationality across northern Europe from Irish to Estonian (I have no idea what the stereotypical Estonian is supposed to look like). When I lived in the Netherlands people assumed I was Dutch. When I lived in Austria, people assumed I was Austrian. My father may or may not have been a direct descendant of Aaron, presuming such a person actually existed, but it is clear that there has been a lot of other genetic material added along the way. I am a Jew, not because of genetics, but because my mother identified as a Jew whatever her genetic background and I chose not to disregard that fact.


The main flaw in the theory of Khazar origins of Ashkenazi Jews is linguistic.

The language of the Ashkenazi people was Yiddish, which is a Germanic language augmented with Hebrew, Slavic and Latin vocabulary.

There are absolutely no Turkic or Caucasian element in Yiddish which one would otherwise expect to find and it is difficult to understand why a Germanic language would have been adopted by non-German migrants to a different non-German land. Its as if the descendants of 19th century Greek migrants to New York adopted Quebec French as their language!

Harold F

Of course, this has an agenda. Does anyone remember the claim made four years ago that the ancient Israelites had African fixtures? The claim just happened to be made just as Obama became president. Draw your own conclusion on that one.

Btw, since we now know that the people who call themselves Jews are really non-Jews, I'm very disappointed to find out that Scarlett Johannson isn't Jewish after all. (lol)

Harold F

I meant African features, not fixtures. Silly me.


For Harold F and all the others who are screaming bias, I have a simple challenge for you.

Ha'aretz asked lots of leading geneticists and historians to comment on the study.

None did, save for Sand.

If the study was so evidently biased as Harold so pompously farts, or if it had so many clear and evident flaws as other claim, why wouldn't even one of these noted geneticists or historians have said anything?

Come on, Harold F, you must have an answer that you can fart out for that!

After all, everything is a left wing conspiracy in your eyes, anyway and these academics are all left wing, right? I mean, they must be because they are academics!

So it's some sort of left wing conspiracy to smear Jews and Israel, right?

Or do you have some fresher gas trapped in your anus that you'd like to relieve yourself of?


Now I know you are antisemite Took up the theory propagated by antisemitic and Arabists websites around the world that became popular specifically to delegitimize the connection of Jewish people to the land of Israel.
When reading your site, I always wondered who is that guy on the street of the Internet yelling insults to one of the most famous rabbis of the 20th century. Now after reading this, all I can say is, "there is nothing to see here folks. Just an old self-hating cast-out Jew. Move along".


Posted by: Harold F | December 30, 2012 at 10:20 AM

It never fails. Obama/Black enters the debate no matter what when some of you find your beliefs threatened. Ultimately we all come out of Africa 10s of thousands of years ago. Newsflash for you, genius, most of the other groups that share the Cohen Y gene are Central Asian and African. Deal with it.

The researcher is suggesting that one subset of Jews are primarily descended from an empire that converted over 1,000 years ago. Big deal.


I said the same thing when the first "positive" studies were published. We know that there was a huge influx of Italian converts around the time of the destruction of the temple, as confirmed by census at the time (see Feldman, Jew and Gentile in the Ancient World), and it is well known that giyur was routine in many communities in late antiquity; the real reason the giyur was made difficult in early modern Europe was because the Church was concerned about it and levied communal punishment when it occurred too frequently.

Yoel Mechanic

Jews are a nation ,not a religion. We have laws of citizenship and laws of immigration or conve rsion

Doesn't matter where someone comes from, but have they met the citxenship test.

Posted by: Jake | December 30, 2012 at 12:41 AM
A tribal nation at that. Tribal law is the definition of who is a Jew, however interesting genetic studies might be, they have no bearing on legal decisions.

And look at all the hypocrisy! 100% of Muslims are descended from converts (reverts as they prefer to call them). Yet they are happy to claim ownership over vast areas of land solely on the basis of Islamic law. Suddenly Jews don't have a land connection because of some genetic markers from somewhere?

Whether I think their (Islamic) claims right or wrong is not the point. The point is the incredible hypocrisy to use genetics as a basis of land claims when for thousands of years claims have been made without any genetic issues brought up (they probably didn't even know what a genome was 1300 years ago at the time of the Islamic conquest). And everyone knows that vast migrations and tribal mixing takes place. Suddenly we are supposed to be worried about genetic markers?

We Jews recognize conversion, and if others don't like that then they can just keep it to themselves, we are not interested. It has always been like that.

Lubavitchers are Christians

I sometimes go to neo nazi web sites and i do not see links to FM post a few please.

Posted by: seymour | December 30, 2012 at 07:38 AM

Why do you go to neo nazi websites?


Lubavitchers are Christians--Why do you answer seymours question with a question are you afraid to answer seymour?


sensible discussions of the papers methods:



Shmarya is of Khazzer Descent

Come on. You know that no honest academic considers Ha'aretz worth responding to. For that matter, that scurrilous rag may not have even asked anyone to respond.

Shem Tov

This is old news. Everyone knows that European Jews are Khazar converts, that's nothing new. Many books has been written on this by researchers a few who were European jews as well. I find it nearly impossible for such a people to be related to the Ancient people of Israel (if such a people ever existed). The harsh weather conditions of that time would have decimated a European and melanin lacking population.

Next artwork from civilizations close to that region portrays the inhabitants as "Arab looking (think Yemeni Jews) to some looking down right negro. Next we have genetics, which never lies, Europeans have no ties to middle eastern Jews, none.

Even though i am Jewish, i am well aware that history has been rewritten a few times, and jews may have just been a small clan of people that invented their god and everything else along with it; but none of this matters, for even if they are Khazars, at some point they converted and we recognize converts as jews.

Mike Kats

While it’s true that many Ashkenazi Jews have DNA chromosome’s that link them to other populations outside of the Middle East (possible the Kashres), but the majority of Ashknazi Jews have links to the Middle East. Especially the Male chromosomes are predominantly Middle Eastern.

(The theory is, that some Jewish males married non Jewish females who converted to Jewdizem).

According to Wiki:

Studies of autosomal DNA, which look at the entire DNA mixture, have become increasingly important as the technology develops. They show that Jewish populations have tended to form relatively closely related groups in independent communities, with most in a community sharing significant ancestry in common. For Jewish populations of the diaspora, the genetic composition of Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi Jewish populations show a predominant amount of shared Middle Eastern ancestry.

According to Behar, the most parsimonious explanation for this shared Middle Eastern ancestry is that it is "consistent with the historical formulation of the Jewish people as descending from the ancient Hebrew and Israelite residents of the Levant" and "the dispersion of the people of ancient Israel throughout the Old World".

End Wiki

Furthermore, the majority of KOHONIM (Including Ashkenazim and Sfardim) share the same DNA (not found by non-kohen Jews), and that DNA has a linkage to mainly other Middle Eastern populations. Its called the “Aron” DNA.

Wiki: More recent research, using a larger number of Y-STR markers to gain higher resolution more specific genetic signatures, has indicated that about half of contemporary Jewish Kohanim, who share Y-chromosomal haplogroup J1c3 (also called J-P58), do indeed appear to be very closely related. A further approximately 15% of Kohanim fall into a second distinct group, sharing a different but similarly tightly related ancestry. This second group fall under haplogroup J2a (J-M410). A number of other smaller lineage groups are also observed. Only one of these haplogroups could indicate ancestry from Y-chromosomal Aaron.

End Wiki

The self hating Jews and anti-Semites are always playing the Kahsry card like this was the fact in all Jews. To me they belong to in the same group as the Mosed in CIA did 911; the holocaust is a lie; Elvis is a life on so on.

Mike Kats

Advanced genetic testing, including Y-DNA and mtDNA haplotyping, of modern Jewish communities around the world, has helped to determine which of the communities are likely to descend from the Israelites and which are not, as well as to establish the degrees of separation between the groups. Important studies archived here include the University College London study of 2002, Ariella Oppenheim's study of 2001, Ariella Oppenheim's study of 2000, Michael Hammer's study of 2000, Doron Behar's study of 2008, Steven Bray's study of 2010, and others.
Key findings:

The main ethnic element of Ashkenazim (German and Eastern European Jews), Sephardim (Spanish and Portuguese Jews), Mizrakhim (Middle Eastern Jews), Juhurim (Mountain Jews of the Caucasus), Italqim (Italian Jews), and most other modern Jewish populations of the world is Israelite.

Ashkenazim also descend, in a smaller way, from European peoples from the northern Mediterranean region and even less from Slavs and Khazars. The non-Israelite Y-DNA haplogroups include Q1b1a (typically Central Asian) and R1a1 (typically Eastern European but the most common Ashkenazic variant comes from somewhere in Asia, probably Central Asia).

Dutch Jews from the Netherlands also descend from northwestern Europeans.
Sephardim also descend, in a smaller way, from various non-Israelite peoples.

Georgian Jews (Gruzinim) are a mix of Georgians and Israelites.

Yemenite Jews (Temanim) are a mix of Yemenite Arabs and Israelites.

Moroccan Jews, Algerian Jews, and Tunisian Jews are mainly Israelites.

Libyan Jews are mainly Israelites who may have mixed somewhat with Berbers.

Ethiopian Jews are almost exclusively Ethiopian, with little or no Israelite ancestry.

Bene Israel Jews and Cochin Jews of India have much Indian ancestry in their mtDNA.
Palestinian Arabs are probably partly Israelite.

Studies of Cohens and Levites

Key findings:

The Cohen Modal Haplotype is found among many Jewish populations of the world, including Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and the Bene Israel of India.

The Cohen Modal Haplotype, which belongs to haplogroup J, was a component of the ancient Israelite population, and especially common among the Cohens (priests of the Temple in Jerusalem).

The Cohen Modal Haplotype is not exclusively found among Jews, but rather is also found among Kurds, Armenians, Italians, Palestinian Arabs, and a few other peoples.

About half of Ashkenazic Levites possess Eastern European non-Israelite haplotypes belonging to the R1a1 haplogroup. This is almost never found among Sephardic Levites, and may have been introduced into the Ashkenazic Levite lines by Slavs or Khazars who converted to Judaism.


Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 01:06 PM


Stop trolling or I'll ban you.

What this new study does is refute these previous studies, Mikey, by rectifying the the contradictions between them.

If you weren't a troll – and a bad one at that – and a cretin, you'd know that.

Now toddle off.

Eli, what me messiah?

Posted by: MM | December 30, 2012 at 10:01 AM

MM, agree fully.

Barry, you make a fair point about language but cultural evolution (language) does not necessarily correlate with genetics. My dangerously quick education in Khazar history via Wikipedia indicates that only the ruling elites (aristocracy) converted. This may not have provided critical mass for language change, although the ruling elite would have had access to greater reproductive opportunities.

Of course, it seems odd the ruling elite would convert and the masses wouldn't...maybe Wikipedia is wrong about this.

Harold F

I agree that a non-Jew who goes through a conversionary process is a Jew, period. That's why I hate people(Jews and non-Jews)who tell Jews by choice they not "really Jewish." No such such concept exists in Judaism. Either a person is a Jew or not a Jew.

I know that as far back as 1976, the Patais in their book,The Myth of the Jewish,believed that there was a possiblity of a Khazar element in the genetic makeup of the Ashkenazim but they maintained that almost all the Jewish population groups have a common genetic link to the Middle East.

I know why the Identity Christians love the Khazar Theory. The premise of Christian Identity is that the Northwest Europe peoples are the descendants of the ten tribes of Israel (the true Jews so to speak and the "so called Jews" are frauds.

It should be noted that no genetic link has been found between the Middle East and the Christian Identity adherents.

The Arabs use the Khazar Theory to try destroy the Jewish link to Israel. The UN partition of Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state in 1947 has no validity then. Sure, G-d gave the land to the Jews but they're not Jews.

What's point of this argument about the Khazar Theory anyway? Let's assume it's correct. Are the Jews in Israel going to suddenly pack their bags for the territory of the Khazar Kingdom? They're in Israel and no one is going to make them leave.

Mike Kats

This study from this young researcher doesn't mean anything relative to many other studies from respected universities.

To me it’s like some young smuk has evidence that Einstein was wrong.

What we know for sure is, that you mother’s father was a sadistic killer and thief (Al Capone of St Paul –check it out) and the mean spirit is in your DNA.

If you want to ban me, go ahead, it will just show how weak and emotional unstable, you are.

By the way, it’s time to bring on some research from some researcher, somewhere, that the holocaust is a lie


and no population group has ever lived in total isolation from other population groups

Wait ... what? Not even Australian Aboriginals?

Yoel Mechanic

I sometimes go to neo nazi web sites and i do not see links to FM post a few please.

Posted by: seymour | December 30, 2012 at 07:38 AM
Seymour, I only mention this because you seem to be open to reason. The way you find thes links is to do site searches on the fascist website, and you will find plenty.

site:stormfront.org failedmessiah.com

From here you can share more if you wish.

Uzi Weingarten

Having read CAMERA's reports over the years, I have a healthy distrust for anything Haaretz writes that can be seen as serving its agenda. CAMERA has shown repeatedly how Haaretz literally falsifies things in order to cast Israel in a bad light.

This is especially true in the English edition, which as CAMERA shows often deviates from the original Hebrew and falsifies things.

So, to the issue at hand:
Haaretz says they contacted all those geneticists and none was willing to comment--maybe, maybe not. Who knows? Haaretz has been so discredited in my eyes in matters of politics and Judaism that it is hard to take them seriously.

Harold F

The self hating Jews and anti-Semites are always playing the Kahsry card like this was the fact in all Jews. To me they belong to in the same group as the Mosed in CIA did 911; the holocaust is a lie; Elvis is a life on so on.

It should be mentioned that the claim that Neil Armstrong did not step on the moon belongs in that same group, too.


Haaretz and Shmarye are extreme lefties, they are as ugly and blind as the extreme right.

Mike Kats

Harold: Right on


This study from this young researcher doesn't mean anything relative to many other studies from respected universities.

Mike, I realize you're not honest and not bright and not well educated, and you are a troll, but do try to process.

This study was published in a leading peer reviewed journal by a noted researcher with more academic citations than most of the other researches that came before have combined.

The reason no one would respond to Ha'aretz is because there is no response, Mikey.

Garnel Ironheart

> This study was published in a leading peer reviewed journal by a noted researcher with more academic citations than most of the other researches that came before have combined.

Shmarya, I realize you're a socially isolated blogger who sits in his basement all day surrounded by empty bags of Doritos while obsessing over how to blame Jews for everything from global warming to Stalin's purges but do try to process.

First of all, there is no reason to think Jews would be a genetically homogenous group because of intermarriage, conversions, rapes, forced mingling with the surrounding populations, etc.

Secondly, this is one study which I doubt you are qualified to critique on a scientific basis but are instead relying on Ha'aretz, the paper whose editor has "wet dreams" about Israel being raped by its Arab neighbours, to tell you about.

Third, if you read the actual scientific literature you'll see this is not cut and dried like this ONE study claims.

Fourth, genetic studies always take a back seat to recorded history and any good geneticist will tell you this. Ashkenazic Jewish history is well documented enough to refute any genetic claims that we came from the Khazars. You're so convinced we made up God and the Torah that you're convinced we made up Ashkenazim as well.

What's next? A piece explained why Jewish usurers and landlords are the real reason those evil Ukrainian Jews had it coming to them during Tach and Tat?


The ethnic background of the Jewish people, like most other human beings, is probably a mixture of various ethnic groupings. Human history is a history of migration, that includes all people. To begin we have two basic issues, first that Judaism began somewhere in the Middle East region. Second that the Khazar Empire was primarily Jewish. But there are some other facts that should be considered. In Sephardic genealogy the Roman Empire was 15% Jewish and the Eastern Roman Empire was 25% Jewish particularly in Turkey. Turkey is closely located to the Khazar region. Not only did the Roman Empire have a large Jewish percentage, but Roman citizens were converting to Judaism because they preferred the spirituality over the materialism and violence of Paganism.

Regardless, with the Eastern Roman Empire at 25% Jewish and the entire Roman Empire at 15% Jewish, watch out here comes the dirty little secret of western historians, Islam. Islam spreads throughout the Eastern Roman Empire forcing Jews and Orthodox Christians north into Europe. I have yet to hear anyone explain what happened to the 25% Jewish Turkish population as Islam invaded north? Were they forced north into Eastern Europe? The Inquisition in Spain and other pogroms then forces Jews to migrate East and into the Turkish region were there was more tolerance.

Judaism is much older in Europe than Christianity. It therefore makes perfect sense that after several thousand years of the Jewish people living in Europe, often subject to the discrimination of dominant regional ethnic groups, that the Jewish people are highly integrated. After thousands of years of conversions and intermarriages Jewish genes would be largely European. In many their genes would be exclusively European. In some there may be the evidence of the early origins in the Middle East.

Regardless of the real facts, our genes are likely a mixture of the various ethnic groups that comprise our history.

Mike Kats

Shmarya, please provide evidence that this researcher has more "academic citations" then many (maybe 20) other researches mentioned in in many other articles, claiming that while some Ashknazi Jews have the female Kazahri DNA, but most Jews (especially the Male DNA, and most DNA of non-Ashknazi Jews) are linked to the Middle East.


You see, people, this is part of the reason I stopped participating. Frum troll = waste of oxygen.


That and the damn Captcha. Five tries it took me on that last one.


Posted by: Garnel Ironheart | December 30, 2012 at 02:14 PM

To say that you are approaching this dishonestly is a significant understatement.

A normal person, as opposed to a propagandist, ask what the implications are if it holds up,and leave it at that until those leading geneticists who have been in hiding for the past several months finally decide to try to refute it.

But if they don't – or if what we get is propaganda, not science – then what you should do is readjust your view of history.

But again, this involves intellectual honesty, something you clearly lack.


Shmarya, please provide evidence that this researcher has more "academic citations" then many (maybe 20) other researches mentioned in in many other articles, claiming that while some Ashknazi Jews have the female Kazahri DNA, but most Jews (especially the Male DNA, and most DNA of non-Ashknazi Jews) are linked to the Middle East.

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 02:18 PM

Try Google Scholar, "Mike."

Mike Kats

"I realize you're a socially isolated blogger who sits in his basement all day surrounded by empty bags of Doritos while obsessing over how to blame Jews"


I would say "obsessing blaming orthodox and centre/right-wing Jews".


Mike Kats-What is important here is the ydna which only the male has if you want to test it go to ftdna and it costs about 99 dollars to test youreself i did and the results are fascinating i proved to be a kohen even had 2 arabs for a distant match .


i promised myself I wouldn't post on this anymore. The irrational responses are tiresome. But.. the man has over 1700 citations for his research. 1754 citations in just 6 years is mind boggling. It means he's an exceptional scientist.



Posted by: Garnel Ironheart | December 30, 2012 at 02:14 PM

If you had a fraction of the scientific education you claim, you'd admit that this article's conclusions are being distorted by many posters- including yourself. You're nothing but a poseur.


Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 02:39 PM

Exhibit A.

Mike Kats

Shmarya, I did, I have not seen any evidence that this guy is more credible then most of the other researchers (let alone, combined).

Readers, check it out

Mike Kats

Does anyone mind to post a link to his citation page?


Does anyone mind to post a link to his citation page?

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 03:05 PM


Someone already has but in typical troll fashion, you ignored it.

Go back and read the last few comments, Mikey.

Mike Kats

let me do the research of ALL noted researcher's involved, and I will posted here latter.


Of course, it seems odd the ruling elite would convert and the masses wouldn't...maybe Wikipedia is wrong about this.

Posted by: Eli, what me messiah? | December 30, 2012 at 01:18 PM

No, this is not odd--it's typical. Take for example the conversion of the Anglo-Saxons. King AEthelberht of Kent was a pagan married to a Christian Frankish woman who had a chaplain in her entourage. Through his wife, AEthelberht became interested in Christianity and asked Pope Gregory I for missionaries. The Pope dispatched Augustine (later St. Augustine of Canterbury). Within a year of Augustine's arrival in 597 AD, Aethelberht had converted. That began the top down conversion of the Anglo-Saxons, although it took a hundred years or so for the conversion process to be complete, and even then pre-Christian beliefs and practices persisted in the countryside. Both 'pagan' and 'heathen' have original root meanings of those who reside in the countryside, in rural areas, peasantry.

There is an interesting insight into conversion in The Song of Roland composed in the context of the First Crusade. In the poem Charlemagne and his followers are engaged in a campaign against the Saracens in Spain, and the main event recounted is a battle at Roncesvalle in the Pyrenees. (In fact this battle actually took place, but Charlemagne's adversary was the Basques, nothing to do with Muslims.) After much going-on the Saracen city under the leadership of Queen Bramimonde surrenedered, and the lives of the inhabitants who accepted conversion to Christianity were spared. However, Queen Bramimonde herself was held captive and returned to France in the hope that she would make a sincere, non-forced conversion to Christiantiy which she did--she was baptized Juliane. Of course, none of this is historically accurate, but it does illuminate the attitude toward conversion in late 11th century Europe at the time of the First Crusade. That is, true conversion would come from the ruling elite, while change in the religion of the masses was determined by force from the outside or by pressure from internal leadership. If such force or pressure did not exist, presumably the masses, left to their own devices, preserved the status quo.

No one ever seems to mention it, but of course the Arabs and Islam originated in the Arabian Pensinsula. Their presence in the Middle East and North Africa came by way of military action and forced conversion. What are now Syria and Turkey were at the time of Mohammed's birth staunchly Christian, and Constantinople was Christian until it fell to the Turks in 1453. The Arabs are in the Middle East by right of conquest, just as the Israelis are in the settlements. Historically (and even genetically) the Arabs have little right to complain.

Mike Kats

Shamray you are terribly wrong, here are the number's.

The new study, by Dr. David Goldstein, Dr. Mark Thomas and Dr. Neil Bradman of University College in London and other colleagues

Part of the NYT article:

Noting that the Y chromosome points to a Middle Eastern origin of Jewish communities and the mitochondrial DNA to a possibly local origin, Dr. Goldstein said that the composition of ordinary chromosomes, which carry most of the genes, was impossible to assess.

"My guess," Dr. Goldstein said, "is that the rest of the genome will be a mixture of both."

Source New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/14/science/in-dna-new-clues-to-jewish-roots.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm)

Dr. David Goldstein has a total of 24456 citation's, and a total of 18280 since 2007.

Dr. Mark Thomas has a total of 5437 and 3255 since 2007

Dr. Neil Bradman has 930 citation's

More to come...

Mike Kats

"Y is the male DNA and its pointing to the ME, and my guess is that the rest is a mixture of both"


Mike Kats, the haredi troll and moron, cites the authors of a study reported in the NY Times in 2002 to show that some of them have more citations than our researcher does.

But what the lying haredi troll Mike Kats doesn't tell you is what those researchers concluded:http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/14/science/in-dna-new-clues-to-jewish-roots.html

A new study now shows that the women in nine Jewish communities from Georgia, the former Soviet republic, to Morocco have vastly different genetic histories from the men. In each community, the women carry very few genetic signatures on their mitochondrial DNA, a genetic element inherited only through the female line. This indicates that the community had just a small number of founding mothers and that after the founding event there was little, if any, interchange with the host population. The women's identities, however, are a mystery, because, unlike the case with the men, their genetic signatures are not related to one another or to those of present-day Middle Eastern populations.

The new study, by Dr. David Goldstein, Dr. Mark Thomas and Dr. Neil Bradman of University College in London and other colleagues, appears in The American Journal of Human Genetics this month. Dr. Goldstein said it was up to historians to interpret the genetic evidence. His own speculation, he said, is that most Jewish communities were formed by unions between Jewish men and local women, though he notes that the women's origins cannot be genetically determined.In other words, you lying moronic piece of crap, the researchers you cite as having more citations than ours would AGREE with ours.

But the researchers who found all those unique Jewish genes – some of whom make a good living selling DNA kits to genealogy buffs. What about them? They are the ones I was referring to, "Mikey."

Mike Kats

I said it many times before that THE MALE IS MIDDLE EASTERN BUT THE FEMALE IS A MIXTURE, look at my post 3 hours ago.

Yes, let the reader's decide who is lying


I said it many times before that THE MALE IS MIDDLE EASTERN BUT THE FEMALE IS A MIXTURE, look at my post 3 hours ago.

Yes, let the reader's decide who is lying

Posted by: Mike Kats | December 30, 2012 at 04:01 PM

You're just too dumb for words, "Mike."

Mike Kats

Again, Goldstien clearly said: The Y (male) is ME, the rest is a mixture.

Mike Kats

BTW, Goldstien refer's only to the Ashknazi DNA, not Sfardim who are much more ME

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