After Disastrous Arrest Of American Female Rabbi And British Teens At Kotel, Netanyahu Asks Sharansky To Deal With The Problem

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has reportedly instructed the quasi-governmental Jewish Agency to find a solution for Jewish female groups that want to pray at the Western Wall, known as the Kotel in Hebrew, but that do not want to follow restrictive haredi interpretations of Jewish law.

Women praying at the Kotel

After Disastrous Arrest Of American Female Rabbi And British Teens At Kotel, Netanyahu Asks Sharansky To Deal With The Problem
Shmarya Rosenberg • FailedMessiah.com

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has reportedly instructed the quasi-governmental Jewish Agency to find a solution for Jewish female groups that want to pray at the Western Wall, known as the Kotel in Hebrew, but that do not want to follow restrictive haredi interpretations of Jewish law.

Netanyahu asked Natan Sharansky, the Jewish Agency’s chairman, to look for a solution, Ha’aretz reported.

Last week Israeli police detained more women who arrived at the Kotel wearing tallits, prayer shawls. Jewish law allows women to wear a tallit, although the fringed garment is usually only worn by men, especially in haredi communities.

Haredim historically reacted to women wearing tallits at the kotel by rioting. To prevent that, the High Court of Justice banned women from wearing tallits there, but also mandated that the state must find an equitable solution to women’s desire to pray freely there.

Even though years have passed since the High Court’s ruling, the state has made no real progress in finding a an equitable solution for women or for non-Orthodox groups, but it has managed to use its police force to arrest, harass, intimidate and sometimes assault many women who have tried to wear tallits or read from Torah scrolls there.

The latest incident happened last week, when police detained and interrogated two British teenagers and a noted American female rabbi, Elyse Frishman, for three hours for wearing tallits. Police tried to force the women to sign a statement admitting that they “disturbed the public peace.” The women refused and were eventually released with orders not to return to the Kotel.

The incident – which closely followed several others, including one in which Women of the Wall leader Anat Hoffman was handcuffed and allegedly dragged across the floor of a police station, thrown into a cell with prostitutes, and left there overnight – sparked outrage among Diaspora Jewish groups because of Rabbi Elyse Frishman’s involvement.

Jewish Agency spokesman Benjamin Rutland told Ha’aretz that Netanyahu – who has done little to fight illegal haredi discrimination against women and who is known for skirting and ignoring outright High Court rulings supporting women’s rights – told Sharansky that the Kotel "must remain a source of Jewish unity rather than division."

Netanyahu needs a compliant Diaspora Jewry after his disastrous meddling in the American elections on behalf of Republican Mitt Romney failed miserably last month.

Comments

[gopjew]

duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh giving women their own space at the temple site where they can disregard hareidism.

do you really need studies and government commissions to come up with that shit?

[Sarah]

Maybe this will be the start of a Jewish Spring.

[Runner1983]

To quote from the article: "Even though years have passed since the High Court’s ruling, the state has made no real progress in finding an equitable solution for women or for non-Orthodox groups, but it has managed to use its police force to arrest, harass, intimidate and sometimes assault many women who have tried to wear tallits or read from Torah scrolls there."

Since the Haredim are the ones who riot at the sight of women wearing tallit. at the kotel, perhaps they should be the ones who the police should arrest, harass intimidate and sometimes assault, not the women.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

the bivi und shakaransky?
what a team! הלך הזרזיר אצל העורב

[Mosh]

Last week Israeli police detained more women who arrived at the Kotel wearing tallits, prayer shawls.

Must have been the wacky Women "Off" the wall. Every now and then they crawl out of the woodwork seeking their 15 minutes of fame.

Maybe they can go and "pray" at the new found temple some three miles away. ( http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2012/12/ancient-jewish-temple-competing-with-temple-of-david-and-solomon-found-only-3-miles-from-temple-moun-567.html )

[Garnel Ironheart]

> Even though years have passed since the High Court’s ruling,

Must be frustrating to be on the High Court these days. They say the Chareidim should be drafted and the government ignores them. They say the Wenches of the Wall should be allowed to incite the Chareidim to violence but not be considered provcateurs and the government ignores them. Back when the Leftists were in power, the Court made no secret of its disdain for democracy and Israel's Jewish nature and its intent to govern Israel through decrees instead of allowing the Knesset to make decisions. Suddenly the right is in power and the judges are starting to realize that the elected government has a role even when people you don't like get elected by the unwashed masses.

[danny]

Praying to a bunch of stones is idolatry.

[Jeff]

Must have been the wacky Women "Off" the wall. Every now and then they crawl out of the woodwork seeking their 15 minutes of fame.

The frum trolls who come here can never defend the actions of their brethren in Israel regarding the Kotel, so they invariably resort to personal denigration of Hoffman and her organization.

Some of the worst examples of humanity claim continually to represent the best of humanity. It's this level of denial that has caused me to give up completely on human beings.

And by the way, this:

Women "Off" the wall

is neither funny nor clever. Nothing you people say ever is, although the tragedy is that you think it is. You guys always seem to think you're a riot.

Collectively and individually, you're operating at the developmental level of children, and your sense of humor reflects it.

[Jeff]

By the way, what happened to Mike Kats? Did Shmarya ban him?

[Emo Globin]

The reason is because at any given time a woman may be having her menstrual cycle and be considered unclean. Whenever this happens it's like the Chareidim smell blood.

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: Garnel Ironheart | December 27, 2012 at 07:50 AM

Inciting Haredi men to violence? Yeah, just like a Saudi woman incites a man to violence if she uncovers her nose in public.

Following your train of illogic if someone is so outraged by one of your statements that they break your knees with a baseball bat,it's your fault. You incited them to violence.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

For some perspective:

If the women of the wall would try entering a mosque with a talit or tfilin, they wouldn't make it out alive.

None of them would dare to enter a church and start praying jewish prayers.

We need to respect others' religions, and especially their places of worship.

The fact is that the kotel has been an orthodox prayer area for thousands of years. Perhaps the orthodox should make room for the conservative and the reform, but they are separate religions, and it is very understandable to not want other religions praying in your place of worship. Just as Muslims and Christians would not want the women of the wall in their churches and mosques.

Even the Lubavitchers have a right to refuse entry into 770 to those who refuse to accept the rebbe as Jesus Christ II.

[DJ]

Why is this ignoring the real problem, that women have less than a third of the space that men have at the wall because the mehitzah was moved in 2004 renovations and there isn't enough room for women to daven? This is something even the frummest women are upset about. I like wearing a tallis and all, but I'm WAY more upset about having to wait 5-10 minutes for a space while the mens' section is wide open.

[Former Chavrusa]

Are you serious? all shmaryahu does that whole day is belittle everyone, he used to live in saint louis park minnesota and daven at bais yisroel. y cant shmaryahu get a life, he hears stuff and he posts all the information on this site without verifying it, wow sounds like fun

[Shmarya]

Are you serious? all shmaryahu does that whole day is belittle everyone, he used to live in saint louis park minnesota and daven at bais yisroel. y cant shmaryahu get a life, he hears stuff and he posts all the information on this site without verifying it, wow sounds like fun

Posted by: Former Chavrusa | December 27, 2012 at 10:37 AM

I never lived in St. Louis Park or near St. Louis Park.

And what I post here is verified, source-cited and very accurate.

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | December 27, 2012 at 10:20 AM

The Wall belonged to Muslims for hundreds of years until secular Israeli soldiers fought, bled and died to liberate it. It was absolutely not an "Orthodox" prayer site for millennia. It wasn't even accessible to Jews for periods of time.

[ah-pee-chorus]

SkepticalYid -

please dont bother LAC with facts. he isnt interested.

[S M L]

Inciting Haredi men to violence? Yeah, just like a Saudi woman incites a man to violence if she uncovers her nose in public. Following your train of illogic if someone is so outraged by one of your statements that they break your knees with a baseball bat it's your fault. You incited them to violence.

Time for Israel to grow up as a society and deal with rioters of any stripe as what they are: disturbers of the peace, lawbreakers and damagers of the social fabric. Like tantruming kids the Haredim are never going to get the message that their behavior is wrong as long as it's constantly rewarded by a right-wing government that panders to them. They may not get it under any circumstances however at least they'd be suppressed. I remain pessimistic about Israel's future.

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | December 27, 2012 at 11:48 AM

So I"ve noticed. But I still believe that misinformation disseminated in public forums deserves rebuttal.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

They made a mistake messing with rabbi frishman. She's well known and well respected among American Reformic Jews. She was the editor of their current siddur. Her husband is probably more widely known and extremely well connected as the sr vp of the URJ, and part of the duo kol b'seder. The Reformics aren't going to let this drop.
By handing this off to shcharansky, bibi can look like he's doing something, but can walk away from whatever they recommend .
It would nice if they got rid of the ww heritage societ, but can we believe they'd give the kotel to the National Park svc or to the Dept of antiquities or the worse the ministry of religious affairs?
Cue up kol b'seder singing "lo Alecha hamlacha ligmor" which they wrote ( but not the often sung ending sheyibaneh which they did not write).

[Yochanan Lavie]

Welcome back, Jeff. I missed you.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

The Wall belonged to Muslims for hundreds of years until secular Israeli soldiers fought, bled and died to liberate it. It was absolutely not an "Orthodox" prayer site for millennia. It wasn't even accessible to Jews for periods of time.

Posted by: SkepticalYid | December 27, 2012 at 11:39 AM

It was only not accessible to Jews for 19 years. From 1948-1967. Other than those 19 years, Jews have been praying at the Western Wall for millenia. It is the site of two (2) Jewish Temples.

I would hope that wikipedia is a trusted factual source for you. You can read all about the history of Jewish prayers at the western wall, including under hundreds of years of Muslim rule. Read about the firmans issued by the Muslim authorities allowing Jews the right to pray at the western wall, unhindered, until the Zionists showed up in Israel.

For all these hundreds of years, only Orthodox prayers were conducted there.

Only recently, did the women of the wall decide to pray there as well.

I believe that they should be allowed to pray there, just as I believe that the Muslims, Christians, Hindus, and Lubavitchers should be allowed to pray there. But I also understand why the orthodox Jews would not be happy when another religion comes into their prayer area, an area they have constantly used for 2,000 years since their temples.

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | December 27, 2012 at 12:36 PM

Wikipidia is extremely unreliable as are you. Prior to 1517 , the time of the Ottoman conquest, Jewish prayer was generally forbidden at the Western Wall. Documents as far back as 1050 c.e. mention that Jewish prayer was forbidden at the Wall. Addtionally, as I mentioned earlier it wasn't an Orthodox owned site in the sense that a mosque is Muslim. Orthodox Judaism didn't exist until the advent of the Enlightenment. The commonly held belief that rabbinical/orthodox judaism was the only existent Jewish sect for centuries is a commonly held myth, disseminated by the orthodox rabbinate.

[jancsibacsi]

jeff-Wow where have you been i was asking seymour about you , welcome back,I WE NEED YOU IN HERE WHEN THE GOING GETS TOUGH we need a tough honest man here:)

[jancsibacsi]

Former Chavrusa -You sound more of a former mental patient then a chavrusa.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Wikipidia is extremely unreliable

Posted by: SkepticalYid | December 27, 2012 at 12:45 PM

I take it that you expect us all to believe that you are more reliable than wikipedia.

Prior to 1517 , the time of the Ottoman conquest, Jewish prayer was generally forbidden at the Western Wall.

Posted by: SkepticalYid | December 27, 2012 at 12:45 PM

Any proof? Citation? Wikipedia seems to claim otherwise.

Addtionally, as I mentioned earlier it wasn't an Orthodox owned site in the sense that a mosque is Muslim. Orthodox Judaism didn't exist until the advent of the Enlightenment.

Posted by: SkepticalYid | December 27, 2012 at 12:45 PM

That is a ridiculous thing to say. All Jews were orthodox until the Enlightenment, when reform and conservative began. Thus, all Jewish prayers were orthodox in nature.

The commonly held belief that rabbinical/orthodox judaism was the only existent Jewish sect for centuries is a commonly held myth, disseminated by the orthodox rabbinate.

Posted by: SkepticalYid | December 27, 2012 at 12:45 PM

Since I would like very much to believe you, please cite links to your assertion. Please let us know about all these non-orthodox/rabbinic sects of Judaism that existed before reform and conservative (during the centuries immediately preceding the Enlightenment.) What were they called?

Just to be clear, I believe that the women of the wall have the right to pray there, just as I believe that Muslims, Christians, Hindus, and Lubavitchers have the right to pray there. But I also understand the orthodox for not wanting other religions in their place of worship.

[SkepticalYid]

First consider 2nd Temple times: Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, Sicarii, Pharisees.
Then consider Karaites, who are far older then Rabbis would have you believe. Samaritans still exist and consider themselves the authentic judaism. Genetic studies of Samaritans confirm their lineage.
Also consider Isunians, Malakites, Mishawites, Sabbateans, Frankists and most definitely the Beta Israel- who were NOT Orthodox in the accepted sense until Rabbis imposed their version of Judaism on them.
For that matter, the Haredim who claim hegemony of the wall are a "reform" movement that was a response to the Enlightenment. Their denial of innovation and modern applications in halacha are contradicted by centuries of Jewish thought and practice.

[SkepticalYid]

If you're genuinely interested in scholarly works on the subject, try reading Gabrielle Boccaccini. He's published a number of excellent works. If I remember correctly, he's at U. Chicago.

[SkepticalYid]

By the by, upon recollecting Isaac Luria and Solomon Molko - who were NOT considered Orthodox... one of the most prominent heretics of the enlightenment era was--- the Baal Shem Tov. If you recall, he was declared a heretic. He and his followers were excommunicated and marriage to his hassidim was forbidden for a time. Addtionally, the Orthodox establisment mosered him to the Czar- charging him with the capital offense of creating a new religion!

[Garnel Ironheart]

> Following your train of illogic if someone is so outraged by one of your statements that they break your knees with a baseball bat,it's your fault.

Skept, if you say "Say something and I'll break your knees with this here baseball bat" and instead of minding what you said I speak my mind anyway and you come at me with the bat, well isn't some of that my fault?
Look, I'm not justifying the Chareidi response but that's what's happening out there. These WoW's know they're going to incite the barbarians on the other side of the mechitzah, they know there's going to be trouble because of their actions and they do it anyway.

[Skepticalyid]

No, it isn't your fault. Threats of violence are verbal assault. It's a criminal offense in some places. They use violence as a means to prevent peaceful dissent . They should be arrested and locked up. So should the women of the wall, until the law changes. That's the price one knowingly pays for civil disobedience. By your reasoning, anyone trying to improve their conditions who's subject to violent reprisal is at fault. That's like saying a successful Black farmer was at fault when the KKK burnt his farm for being "uppity". Would you have suggested that all European Jews convert when they were threatened with death or dispossession?

[rebitzman]

well isn't some of that my fault?

No

[Jeff]

Oh Garnel, seriously? So the little girls in Bet Shemesh are partly to blame when the lunatics chase them down the street screaming, "Curveh!"? They should know the Haredim have no self-control and that showing three inches of ankle would arouse them uncontrollably?

Welcome back, Jeff. I missed you.

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | December 27, 2012 at 12:09 PM

I'm not back. I'm a hologram.

[SkepticalYid]

That's incredible. You look exactly like Jeff!!

[Jake]

Starting up with a female reform rabbinic leader isn't such a big deal.
Reform is a powder puff group of Judaism with fewer and fewer Jewish adherents.

Additional 200-300 feet from where she was arrested she could have did her shtick at the western wall under Robinsons arch. If they added wiggling hips with hula hoops people would have left them alone. Non orthodox groups go there all the time. She was looking for pr and trouble. U fortunately she didn't get enough trouble.

[ger tzedek]

> Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | December 27, 2012 at 01:45 PM

LaC, I highly recommend Natan Slifkin's paper "The Novelty of Orthodoxy": http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2011/10/novelty-of-orthodoxy.html . The idea that everyone was Orthodox by today's standards until the Reform movement broke off is a myth; traditional Judaism before the Enlightenment was much more open to leniency and innovation than Orthodoxy is. Our current Orthodoxy (especially Haredism) is a reactionary traditionalist movement started ~1740.

If anything, the more conservative side of Masorti Judaism probably bears more resemblance to pre-Enlightenment practice than Orthodoxy...maybe the Masorti should be put in charge of the Kotel, then? ;-)