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November 14, 2012

New High Tech Doors Trouble Haredi Rabbis

Rabbi Nissim KarelitzTwo senior haredi poskim, decisors of Jewish law, Rabbis Shmuel HaLevi Wosner and Nissim Karelitz, the first hasidic and the second non-hasidic, have ruled that a new type of self-locking doors are problematic and should be avoided – but not for the reasons you might think.

Rabbi Nissim Karelitz
Rabbi Nissim Karelitz

New High Tech Doors Trouble Haredi Rabbis
Shmarya Rosenberg • FailedMessiah.com

Ynet reports that two senior haredi poskim, decisors of Jewish law, Rabbis Shmuel HaLevi Wosner and Nissim Karelitz, the first hasidic and the second non-hasidic, have ruled that a new type of self-locking doors are problematic and should be avoided – but not for the reasons you might think.

The rabbis didn’t warn against the locks, which are increasingly found in offices and clinics, because of child sexual abuse or due to concerns about Shabbat law violations.

Instead, the two senior haredi rabbis warned that the doors, which appear to be like any normal door, but which automatically electronically lock when closed – which can easily lead to a man and a woman being accidentally secluded together, violating the law of yichud.

The rabbis added that the head of haredi Jewry, Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, had also warned against these new doors.

"Recently introduced door handles almost seem like regular handles from the outside, and the handles can be shifted from the outside as well, but they have an automatic electrical locking that prevents the door from being opened from the outside. There is a 'Yichud' prohibition, and whoever is familiar with these handles could recognize them by paying attention,” and ad sponsored by the rabbis’ organization Halakha Watch noted, calling on readers to avoid using these new door locks in outside and inside doors.

“Places with special needs" were asked to contact Halakha Watch "in order to reach a proper solution."

In places where the new door locks can’t be removed, the rabbis recommended propping doors open so that they are slightly ajar, enough so people can see that the door is unlocked.

[Hat Tip: Bob Guthrie.]

Comments

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I guess Shmarya and the other clowns don't like this part of the Torah.

"which can easily lead to a man and a woman being accidentally secluded together,"

And, what's so wrong with that?

ruled that a new type of self-locking doors are problematic and should be avoided

I hope that there other options that one may purchase and use. I was under the impression that any form of electronic door lock was not to be used on shabbos.

Apologies to Paul McCartney (let 'em in):

Someone's got a 'lectric door
Somebody's goin' to hell
Someone's got a 'lectric door
Somebody's goin' to hell
Do me a favor,
Open the door, they're gonna sin (repeat)

Sister Surie, brother Moish,
Menachem Mendel, Tzvi and Hersh,
Brother Michoel, the Beis Din,
Open the door, don't let 'em sin.
Sister Surie, brother John,
Menachem Mendel, Tzvi and Hersh,
Uncle Shloimie, the Beis Din
Open the door, don't let em sin

Someone's got a 'lectric door
Somebody's goin' to hell
Someone's a 'lectric door
Somebody's goin' to hell
Do me a favor,open the door; don't let em sin
Oy vey, don't let em sin

Sister Surie, brother Moish,
Menachem Mendel, Tzvi and Hersh, oooy
Uncle Shloimie,Uncle Dan
open the door, don't let em sin

Someone's got a 'lectric door
Somebody's goin' to hell
Someone's got a 'lectric door
Somebody's goin' to hell
Do me a favor,open the door; don't let em sin
yeah yeah yeah

YL - LOL

I don't understand this. Who is using these doors and why? The article says they can't be opened from the outside. So how does that lock a man and a woman inside?

Or is it like the blonde story where she's locked out of the driver's door even though the passenger door is open? (or locked out of the car because the battery in the remote is dead, even though she has the key?)

Video of the damage to the Seagate community by Sandy.

http://vimeo.com/studio7productions/seagate

Just thinking out loud..... Wouldn't preventing yichud in a locked room also prevent child abuse in that locked room? Sounds good to me.

This is what happens when you have entirely too much time on your hands. Really? The entire Haredi community waits with bated breath on the pronouncements of these two? What's next? Proper tznius of folding toilet paper before wiping one's ass? (Lateral folds not diagonal as they may lead to impure thoughts?). Did Elyashiv also make pronouncements as to what door manufacturer is mandated? Do Wozner & Karelitz have real jobs? Insane useless old men with little understanding of reality making pronouncements on the daily lives of tens of thousands.

I have an idea. Stop worrying about minutiae. Be productive, go out and work for a living. Support your families. These little laws are not what the creator envisioned, and if the messiah ever does come, I suspect he or she will be massively pissed off over the incredible waste of time. Really, the ultra-orthodox keep making up new rules, because they have little else on their minds.

Maybee they should be troubled just as much with the molestations amongst their midst.

Moshe ignorantly spewed:
guess Shmarya and the other clowns don't like this part of the Torah.

I reply:
If you've ever cracked open a Chumash, you must have noticed that there's no Torah prohibition against yichud. God didn't bother to write about it in the Torah nor did he even hint at it. These laws were all made up by the perverted Babylonian filth who composed the Talmud based on faulty exegesis. Moshe, I challenge you to show me, in the Bible, where God commands these laws of "yichud". But of course you're too ignorant of Torah to do that.

Alter Kocker-You describe them perfectly, theese rebbes and their follower have it too good dont have to worry about putting food on their table they get everythin they live in a tootal fantasy world separated from the real and they dont give a dammn about the real world in israel others fight and die for them here in usa they get food stamps sec.8 on top of that they lie what their income is and have 6 to 10 or more kids on others account since they dont give a dammn about other perception of them they do what they want,tragecally they only wake up when it too late alreay this wont last forever the sec.8 food dtamps the sooner they wake up the better forus all

SHAMRYA - WHERE IS YOUR HATE TOWARDS THESE PEOPLE?


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Principal David Adney sent an email to parents on Monday, asking them to talk to their daughters about wearing pants that expose too much 'leg and backside' that can be 'highly distracting' for others.

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Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2232884/Cover-butts-High-school-principal-demands-female-students-stop-wearing-figure-hugging-leggings.html#ixzz2CDjFkWsW
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R. Wisler

You don't deserve an answer but here it is anyway.

There are 2 Torahs, written and oral. These 2 Rabbis are the world's greatest experts in both Torahs.

Now that I taught you, go study both Torahs and stop voicing your opinion until you learn something.

I love it when yidiots quote the Daily Heil. Shows how totally and utterly fucking ignorant they are, and sends a clear message of "Ignore this muppet".

and those 2, they are respectively litvish and chassidish! hmmm!

YOEL--Dont try to be a wiseguy,dont people have self control you dont have to go nuts when you see a half naked girl or a girl not covered to youre liking what are you a satmerer.they cant control themslef and always have to tellothers how and what to do,yoel vus biste a hayer that doesnt have self control?

R. Wisler--Moshe hasnt the foggiest idea how ignorant he is ,we have this trial soon for weberman who raped and had sex withthe girl he supposedly was helping what he did to her and other girsl is beyond evil he is being protectted by the satmerers he was with the therapist put there by his buddy hassidim if anyone its them theese hassidim who cannot be trusted tobe in a room with a woman or girl they are projecting their fears and stupidity to us and they think we should all act and behave like them,they can go a wipe their behinds with their type of toireh

Moshe,
The New Testament is more ancient and has better historical accuracy than this religion that was made up by the purveyers of the "Oral Torah". Your religion is entirely invented and has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the Torah that God gave Moshe on Mt. Sinai.

This is what happens when you spend your whole life only reading one book.

So, R.W., are you going to become a Karaite?
I have read a lot of their websites, and guess what- they have their own tradition, which they call Sevel hayerusha.
What do you think?

Posted by: R. Wisler | November 14, 2012 at 11:16 AM

If you've ever cracked open a chumash you'll realize that the whole book doesn't make fucking sense and ask "where's the context" because it was clearly written for someone who already knew what it was talking about and not meant to be a stand-alone text. Also, ask any academic and they'll tell you the same thing.


Traditionally, Jewish law is concerned with consensual violation of halacha, while violations that effect or cause damage to others fall into the laws of damages, which deal with compensation. The prevention of such "damages" (whether they be related to burglery or of sexual nature) falls into the area of "civil regulations," which are not an extention of "biblical" laws, and are the problem of whatever governing body exists to enforce. The halacha even prohibits codifying permanent standards for criminal deterrence of civil offenses.

That's why "yichud" automatically jumps to mind when a scholar hears about a door like this, but a scenario where one person could or would assault another person or their property is an issue for other authorities to worry about. Like speed limits, fire arm safety, having an incinerator in your back yard ... halacha deals with the aftermath, but the prevention is up to local law enforcement.

"yidiots", LOL!

Posted by: R. Wisler | November 14, 2012 at 12:56 PM

The only Torah handed to us (those of us living today) is the "Oral Torah," and the only Moshe Rabbeinu and Mt. Sinai we know are those related therein. The "Written Torah" is a mere mnemonic to reference, remember and apply the laws of the only Torah we have (the oral one), and that is the version dictated to us by tradition of the "Oral Torah" (i.e. the version recognized by halacha as constituting a kosher sefer torah).

The reason no one has explained this to you in simple terms like this (which are just basic facts that even the Pope would not argue with) is that they are either idiots, or there is a complete failure and disconnect to relay information in terms consonant with the consciousness of this generation.

And what exactly is the problem with the laws of yichud?

Also, how does this story connect with abuse? The rabbis are issuing their halachic ruling regarding a new lock mechanism, and that in their opinion complicates things for Jews who follow halacha

Posted by: Maskil | November 14, 2012 at 02:58 PM ,

Most people are not abusers. The laws of yichud apply to many aspects of most people’s lives. If you go to the doctor’s office, interview, see a lawyer and many many other instances… the law of yichud is, if 2 people are in the same room but there are other people in the area, and the door is NOT locked, then there is no problem. Since someone can easily walk in any given moment. When you have these automatically locking doors, any time a man and women (who are not siblings, not married..) are alone in a room, they would be violating the laws of yichud, since the door is locked and another person cannot freely walk in.

@ R. Wisler,are you a Karaite by any chance?I mean,a Karaite who belongs to official Karaite groups?

Cheers, Sarek.

Dave,if you've read a lot of Karaite websites,you surely know their motto is:"Search well the Scriptures and do as you think it's right."In other words,they deem only the Tanakh as binding and consider all other 'traditions',including this Sevel hayerusha you're talking about, the rabbinical discussions in the Mishnah and Talmud,as mere legitimate opinions of sages;but by no means the binding word of Hashem.

Posted by: Abu Jihad Schneerson | November 14, 2012 at 06:07 PM

Yeah, on websites. But actual research will show that Karaite Judaism was founded by Talmudic figure Rav Anan רב ענן, and while at first it disavowed any formulated interpretation, similar to the Saducees they quickly developed a formula for codifying their interpretation of the scripture. Ben Asher, the masorete whose version of the chumash almost all communities use was a Karaite. Most Karaites assimilated with the Persian Jews at a certain point, and there are about 10,000 (they claim) today, mostly in Israel, keeping classical Karaite interpretation - a formulated & codified inflexible interpretation of Jewish law and ritual.

Maskil and Shosh, thanks for your informative answers.

You both raised the level of discourse.

It has also to be said that Karaites consider Jewish one who has a Jewish dad;people who have Jewish moms and gentile dads are goyim for them;they say at the time of our fore-fathers,as clearly shown in the Torah,nationhood/Jewishness was passed patrilinearly.

Posted by: Abu Jihad Schneerson | November 14, 2012 at 06:54 PM

And yet the rabbinate didn't give the Persian Jews a hard time, despite the historical fact that Jewish villages of Karaite descent that were too small to keep their specific identity ended up identifying with the larger mainstream Jews of Persia and were assimilated through marriage over time into their community.

This issue has always irked me, but until now I did not have the venue to express it (even to express it consciously to myself).

Karirite Jews living in Israel today are considered Jews by the rabbinate.

Posted by: Jake | November 14, 2012 at 07:18 PM

What, with *no* problems for suspicion of having non-halachic gittin or for improper intermarriage with Gentiles?

I ask as if I'm shocked, but I was already under the impression that was the case. Poskim in the 1800s who encountered Karaites deemed them to be the same as the Falashas, literally taking the halacha from the Falashas and applying it to the existing Karaites (as the Radbaz described the situation, but siding with rov poskim who disagreed with the Radbaz's actual p'sak). So what gives? Why the discrepancy?

Here's this from a Lubavitcher posek in the late 1800s:

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9206&st=&pgnum=115
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9206&st=&pgnum=116

"When I was in Lubavitch I was asked by a rav from Galil Marsan regarding a case that was ongoing there of a woman from the wives of the daughters of the Karaim, she came from far and said that her husband died and that she wanted to Judaize and marry an Israelite and the beis din was perplexed with the ruling of her case and I responded almost instantly to the aforementioned rav that if this woman was in the presumed status of a married woman to such an extent then there is place to be more stringent here than the wife of a complete Israelite for it is possible since she wishes to Judaize that there was some sort of dispute between him and her and that she is not believed to say 'my husband died' as the poskim elaborated regarding a known violater even though the leniency in the case of an igguna is to rely that is due to the difficulty that you press upon her at the end etc. and in this case it is not clear that the difficulty is hers if the lie is revealed for many of our Sepharadic rabbis z"l have been confounded in the matter of the betrothal of Karaites as is brought in Knesset Ha-Gedola (ss. 42) and here too it may be that it is in error in this, however in the responsa of the Radbaz v. 2 (ss. 217) in regard to the woman who came from the country of Ethiopia who was names Alhabish etc. after he decides that the residents there are "Karaites" and do not light the Shabbath candle etc. it is obvious to him that the woman or one witness are believed regarding the death of her husband, see there, but the rav z"l followed his opinion to side with many to be lenient from the law of betrothal with the presence of those invalid to testify but his colleagues disagreed with him in this as is stated clearly in Knesset Ha-Gedola there, all this I answered to him immediately and I deterred him from further study and writing on this and behold now that I have found the matter written among my notes as to my humble opinion more on this subject that according to the explanation in Rashi's commentary on Shabbath (folio 145) that they were lenient in the testimony of an igguna from the law of 'the sages annulled the betrothal from him' and I have already written in another location that we are forced to accept this because of the Gezeira Shava of 'there may not be in sexual matters less than two [witnesses]' even if the claim is true, and according to this in the betrothals of the Karaites which certainly are not relying on the expressed views of our sages z"l and the laws of annulment do not apply we must take care to the biblical standard of 'there may not be in sexual matters less than two [witnesses]', and I have found explicitly such in the responsa of Zekan Aharon (ss. 40) that in the betrothals of the Karaits we do not apply the rules of annulment on the premise of reliance on the expressed views of our rabbis to apply leniency for it is akin to saying 'I cannot accept this rule of the sages' etc., see there, and in my humble opinion a reliable foundation for this can be found in the words of the Tosafoth in Bava Bathra (folio 48) titled 'Assume That He Betrothed with Money', see there, that anyone who in the first place does not betroth in accordance with the view of the sages no matter can be regarded clarified if we were to annul, see there, in a manner that we learn form this that the words do not apply and one may not be lenient in this without another collection of clear testimony of the death of her husband, and I have written this down as a memorandum all according to my humble opinion."

[It's not so easy to read the scan, so I didn't punctuate it well due to uncertainties.]

Maskil,

I am certainly not an expert in this issue. But somewhere in the last few decades the Jerusalem Post or one of the Israeli dailys had in their weekend edition a large article on the karrarites of Israel who mainly came from Egypt and settled in the southern parts of the country in the coastal area.

The article made it clear that the rabbanut considered them Jews and just required them to make a oral declaration. Accepting the. Oral law before getting married. They did not require mikveh as with Ethiopian Jews. Why the difference ? The. Article did not mention although in my mind both karrarites and Etiopian Jews would have the same issue of the non practice of halachic divorce leading to mamzeirut.

Also there is another issue re karrirites from Europe who apparently are not descendants of the ancient "Jewish" karrarite community that did not accept oral law. In fact there was a karrarite village in Lithuania near my grandfathers Lithuanian village. There was also an issue with the Nazis if they should consider the European karrarites as Jews for the purpose of persecution. don't remember what the decision was.

Un fortunately in this area I only remember some key issues of things I have read over the last 30 years.

A board participant is friendly with a American karrarite leader in the Albany NY area. There are better sources then me thank god.

...and settled in the southern parts of the country in the coastal area.

In Azza? We don't have a coast in the south...

Ignoring the misogynist aspect of yichud, there is a second aspect to yichud which seems to have been ignored, that is that a woman must never travel outside her home alone and must be chaperoned at all times even going to and from work. A woman may otherwise leave work half and hour early claiming she feels unwell, spend an hour with her lover at a nearby hotel and arrive home half an hour late from work telling her husband that she was held up by traffic. No one would be suspicious. The Chabad poster of the woman studying on the subway ignored this.

Women are devious creatures. I have watched many documentaries on the internet showing nurses, women cops and teachers jumping on innocent men going about their everyday business.

For advise on keeping your virtue (Reb Yollish appears at 2 minutes) watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLgzxk7Rd-Q

Did you hear the one about the Hasid who locked his family in the car and needed a hanger to get them out?

Women are devious creatures. I have watched many documentaries on the internet showing nurses, women cops and teachers jumping on innocent men going about their everyday business.

On Youporn?

Posted by: Barry | November 15, 2012 at 07:53 AM

I’m not sure if you were being sarcastic or serious.

The laws of yichud are NOT laws to limit the movement of woman. These laws apply EQUALY to men and women.

You write: “a woman must never travel outside her home alone and must be chaperoned at all times even going to and from work”. Where did you get this crazy idea form?

While we’re on this topic, there is also a gross misconception regarding ‘nidah’. Many uninformed people think that the ‘rabbi’s’ somehow singled out women to be ‘impure’, ‘contaminated’ etc. The truth is, there are almost identical laws regarding MEN. It is called zav. True that these laws pertain primarily to times when Jews needed to be ‘pure’ – to enter our holy temple, eat ma’asrot, touch teruma and many more things, but to say that the laws of impurity is so most of misogyny is grossly inaccurate.

... there is also a gross misconception regarding ‘nidah’. Many uninformed people think that the ‘rabbi’s’ somehow singled out women to be ‘impure’, ‘contaminated’ etc.

Okay shosh, you've gone overboard here. We all know that ziva can be by men and women, but you're delusional to deny that the rabbis singled out only the female gender to bleed menstural blood out of their vaginas roughly once a month. And they didn't even give them tampons ... and when they finally did, they were developed by secular men. Fucking misogynists!

Is there anything more complicated than a hoe which doesn't confuse and disturb these guys?

A hoe? Are you kidding? Half the Talmud deals with the proper usage of a hoe to avoid kilayim while maximizing output of maximum varieties of species in minimal terrain. We spent two millenia figuring out the hoe.

... and that's just anywhere, then there are hoe issues with plants in Eretz Israel, where some are directly in the ground (issues of Terumah; tithes; shemita) vs. potted plants (that don't have the law of Eretz Israel), and potted plants where the pot is embedded in the earth; embedded potted plants with holes in them; and either of the two latter bordering plants properly planted, combo issues with kilayim and Eretz Israel laws ... when your field borders a neighbor's; a Gentile's; Syria (rabbinic obligation towards Eretz Israel produce laws with different application and prioritization); other lands captured in the past or present by a Jewish king or state with different laws of application ... The hoe was one of the most difficult technological blows to the nation of Israel in the history of technology...

Dear Maskil, my point is simple: the concept of a person being tamey, and not being able to do certain things at specific times is not confined to women. These laws apply to men as well. e.g. zav, baal keri etc. It’s not some sort of chauvinism…

Similarly, the halachot of Tzniut apply equally to men and women. Albeit with some differences, depending on what was normally exposed my men and women. But essentially the halachot are the same for both genders.

Yeah, I got that. I was just messing with you.

But you're wrong about the halachot being the same, for a man to become tahor from ziva he needs a ma'ayan chai, but a woman can suffice with a bor al gav/yad bor. Stricter for men. Conversely, men can never become tamei with tum'a rishona with tum'at leida. There are inequalities, and it's all the fault of the rabbis, just as the sun sets earlier because of punk-ass Eli Yishai, who decided he can just decide when the sun rises and when the sun sets... who does he think he is, God? Fucking Pharasite.

I agree with R. Wisler ;)

;)

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