Is This Any Way To Treat The Poor?

"…Jews believe in charity, but primarily as a private endeavor. The tithing obligation, or the dispensing of gifts to the poor in Biblical times (maasrot, leket, shikcha, pe’ah – known collectively as matnot aniyim, gifts to the poor), are all private ventures, and are not publicly coerced."

Is this statement an accurate representation of Judaism's view of poverty?

…Jews believe in charity, but primarily as a private endeavor. The tithing obligation, or the dispensing of gifts to the poor in Biblical times (maasrot, leket, shikcha, pe’ah – known collectively as matnot aniyim, gifts to the poor), are all private ventures, and are not publicly coerced. Notwithstanding that at different times in history the Jewish community itself intervened and assessed wealthy members a sum of money to care for society’s poor, that was always considered a last resort and not particularly efficient. The king never levied taxes to care for the poor, although the religious establishment might. Charity as a private act lends moral perfection to the donor; the same cannot be said for a coercive taxation system that distributes only a small sum of the monies collected to the poor.

Of course, it would unacceptable in a Jewish context to have a permanent impoverished class – multi-generational families of welfare recipients – as it should be in an American context. The trillions of dollars spent since the Great Society initiated the War on Poverty has in fact exacerbated poverty, not alleviated it, with more poor in both real and proportionate terms today than when the programs started. It should not be difficult to ascertain why. Handouts degrade the recipient and create a dependency – call it now an entitlement – that is not easy to terminate. We know as well that the greatest form of charity under Jewish law is finding a job for someone unemployed, or lending him money so he can start his own business. For the recipient, that is both dignified and effective in the long-term, but for some reason, Jews feel better giving someone a fish than teaching him how to fish; perhaps the latter would cut into the market share of the Jewish-owned fish companies, if there were Jewish-owned fish companies. But current policies are demeaning and debilitating to the recipient, even if they satisfy the compassionate emotions of their advocates.…

Is this the Jewish view of poverty?

No, it isn't.

There are approximately two dozen (!) Torah mitzvot, commandments, governing our relationship with the poor. These mitzvot mandate various forms of charity and make them obligatory. Additionally, they mandate that the poor not be denigrated or oppressed, and that they be treated with respect and compassion.

The claim made above regarding these mitzvot is false.

…Jews believe in charity, but primarily as a private endeavor. The tithing obligation, or the dispensing of gifts to the poor in Biblical times (maasrot, leket, shikcha, pe’ah – known collectively as matnot aniyim, gifts to the poor), are all private ventures, and are not publicly coerced.

A person who failed to leave the gleanings of his or her field for the poor or who refused to give tzedaka, charity, to a poor person could indeed be "publicly coerced," and when Jewish courts had bailiff powers, they did so.

But past that, violations of those mitzvot are privately "coerced" – by God Himself, meaning that God punishes the miserly and the indifferent when, for whatever reason, the Jewish community lacks the bailiff power to do so.

And more than even that, historically a person who advocates withholding support for the poor or who denigrates and embarrasses the poor was not allowed to hold positions of authority or honor in the Jewish community.

A shochet who refused to give tzedaka to the poor could no longer serve as a shochet. A hazzan who belittled poor people was removed from his post.

It doesn't matter now and it didn't matter then whether the hazzan's statements were based on the political philosophy of the tzar, Ayn Rand or Mitt Romney, or if attacking the poor brought benefits to the Jewish community like, for example, a high social or political standing.

…Handouts degrade the recipient and create a dependency – call it now an entitlement – that is not easy to terminate. We know as well that the greatest form of charity under Jewish law is finding a job for someone unemployed, or lending him money so he can start his own business. For the recipient, that is both dignified and effective in the long-term, but for some reason, Jews feel better giving someone a fish than teaching him how to fish…current policies are demeaning and debilitating to the recipient, even if they satisfy the compassionate emotions of their advocates.…

For the sake of discussion, lets agree that "handouts degrade the recipient and create a dependency," and that "the greatest form of charity under Jewish law is finding a job for someone unemployed, or lending him money so he can start his own business."

But we must also agree that the degradation and dependency existed 3300 years ago, 2000 years ago and 500 years ago, as well.

But even though it clearly did, the Torah and rabbinic law both mandated those handouts.

Why?

Because many poor people are too ill, too weak or too old to benefit from a business loan. Others are too busy caring for a sick child or an aged parent to able to work. Some lack the ability to run a business. Many others just lack skills.

Judaism does argue that it's better to teach a person how to earn a living, to give him or her the skills they need, and help them find a job or start a business – but it doesn't do this in a vacuum or put a time limit on the process, and it doesn't think that the sick, disabled, elderly and thos who have to care for them full time should be made to work.

In today's terms, Pell Grants and low interest student loans with long fixed rate payback periods, job training centers and special grants to pay for training in certain high demand fields (like nursing, for example) would all be programs that fit with Judaism's requirements (with the caveat that the low interest student loans should be no interest student loans), as would Food Stamps, WIC, welfare (but with much higher benefits than are currently in place), Section 8 housing (if it were greatly expanded) and other social safety net programs.

To argue that these are "public" and the Torah only mandates "private" and "personal" acts of charity is to completely misrepresent how Jewish communities ran and were organized for (at least) the past two millennia.

Jewish law mandates that each community have a charity fund that is used to support the poor. It mandates a form of tax collection to keep that fund solvent and it mandates sanctions against community members who refuse to do their share to support it.

In other words, the "private" act of tzedaka was in actuality a public act as well.

So why would anyone claim otherwise?

There are two possible answers to that question:

1. The person who wrote the excerpt posted above is ignorant of this area of Jewish law and theology.

2. The person who wrote the excerpt posted above has chosen to disregard what the Torah and rabbinic law says about poverty and the poor.

In this case, which is it? Is this person ignorant or is he intentionally violating Jewish law?

I believe the answer is the latter; this person is intentionally pushing aside Jewish law and theology in favor of Randian Conservatism.

Why do I say this?

Because the person who wrote that excerpt is Rabbi Steven Pruzansky, a judge on the Beit Din of America, an executive member of the Rabbinical Council of America, and a the head rabbi of the largest Modern Orthodox synagogue in the Diaspora. Pruzansky wrote it knowing that it was misleading and that it was in part a lie.

Morally, there is no way the Beit Din of America, the RCA or Pruzansky's congregation can ignore Pruzansky's lies and his intentional violation of Jewish law – but that probably won't stop all of them from ignoring it anyway.

The wounded here – the poor, the elderly, the disabled – are weakest part of society. They're easy to ignore, easy to denigrate, easy to oppress. They have no real value in Modern Orthodox life or society.

That is the message silence about Pruzansky's lies and his roughshod running over Jewish law sends, and Modern Orthodox Jews should be very ashamed by their leaders' silence.

Comments

[think for a change]

For once I agree with you.

[Joel]

For a Heimishe Mishpocho with 13 children, Kein Ayin Horo, the programs amount to $42,000.00 yearly. Hashem is good.
My neighbor gets all programs, and his car and his wife's car are on their father-in-law's business name, so its a business expense.
In America you must know how to Drei.

[three_oaths]

Shmarya, you are flat-out wrong in attacking R. Pruzansky's statement on the Jewish view of charity. While Jewish scripture and law do mandate care and compassion for the poor, with some 24 mitzvos involved, it is clear from the meforshim and Poskim throughout the ages that the charity was to be EXCLUSIVELY PRIVATE AND A RELIGIOUS OBLIGATION HANDLED BY THE LOCAL RABBINIC COURT, NOT AS PART OF SOME GENTILE GOVERNMENT WELFARE STATE. Also, all these government programs that you mentioned,like Pell Grants, Food Stamps, WIC, etc., are unconstitutional, not mentioned in the Torah, and have been around only since FDR and LBJ's presidencies. In addition, how can you claim that such programs are compassion when they are financed by money that has been taken at gunpoint from unwilling taxpayers--a violation of the 8th commandment against stealing--when these people who pay (income, sales, and/or payroll) taxes are struggling to make ends meet and raise families of their own?

While communities were required to maintain a charity fund, again, it was to be exclusively religious, not civil. In modern America, such a community charity fund is impossible because of diversity and frequent mobility. Nevertheless, you can look around and see REAL CHESED like Masbia, Tomche Shabbos, and COJO in Flatbush.

COMPASSION FOR THE POOR DOES NOT MEAN A WELFARE STATE! THE WELFARE STATE IS CRUELTY, NOT CHESED!

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

I have a friend who gets close to $60,000 a year in government programs and benefits. He told me he will never get a job. Why should he? Why should he lose so much free money, and then have to work like a dog to make a starting salary of $30,000?

Good for him! And lots of people across America are starting to realize that it doesn't pay to work anymore, when you could get it all for free. Perhaps the haredim discovered this system first, and now everyone else is latching on too.

The ones who continue to work are the suckers. I just hope that there are enough of those suckers to prevent the system from total collapse.

[Joel]

Listen to me. If the Goyim L'havdil, could take the Government programs to bring up their Chayis, so why shouldn't we take it to bring up our Kinderlech
Every penny you take out is a Mitzvah.

[jancsibacsi]

Joel--Because of people who think like you this country is in 16 trillion dollar debdt,and when this freebie sec8. and other goodies will be drastically curtalied then you will go nuts and start robbing and killing like those goyim that you so despise

[jancsibacsi]

About 85 to 90 percent of my neighbors get all those freebies sec8. food stamps and they have everything they want in fact i know one who is a millionaire im not kidding has over haplf a mill.in stocks not on his name of course get all the couchers for his half a dozen kids told me gets back over 10 thousand in income tax his wife works part time and gets free subway metro cards in fact he gave me a few i can go on and on after all this he gets with medicaid for his children gets over 100 thousand even more every word i wrote is toras emes.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: three_oaths | November 16, 2012 at 11:31 AM

You're simply wrong.

Te community was a quasi-independent self-governing entity with bailiff power, its own prisons and its own taxes.

Support for the poor was gathered by collectors paid by the community's government. The collections were both voluntary and taxes, meaning that if a person with means regularly refused to give, he or she was stripped of communal honors and positions. In extreme cases, miserly people were even imprisoned.

At the same time, Jewish law recognized the Jewish community's responsibility to the non-Jewish poor who might come to it for help and it also encouraged the non-Jewish countries Jews lived in to be charitable to the non-Jewish poor.

To pretend that a government has no right to tax its citizens to support the poor, or that doing so and using the money to aid the poor isn't a form of tzedaka is foolish.

[Shmarya]

I have a friend who gets close to $60,000 a year in government programs and benefits. He told me he will never get a job. Why should he? Why should he lose so much free money, and then have to work like a dog to make a starting salary of $30,000?

Good for him! And lots of people across America are starting to realize that it doesn't pay to work anymore, when you could get it all for free. Perhaps the haredim discovered this system first, and now everyone else is latching on too.

The ones who continue to work are the suckers. I just hope that there are enough of those suckers to prevent the system from total collapse.

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | November 16, 2012 at 11:35 AM

As anyone familiar with the American social safety net knows, you're lying.

But that isn't much of a surprise – you lie often.

[MM]

You, LAC, are the sucker who has fallen for the Fox narishkeit. And you are a person who doesn't keep his word. And you are a sore loser.

[Shmarya]

About 85 to 90 percent of my neighbors get all those freebies sec8. food stamps and they have everything they want in fact i know one who is a millionaire im not kidding has over haplf a mill.in stocks not on his name of course get all the couchers for his half a dozen kids told me gets back over 10 thousand in income tax his wife works part time and gets free subway metro cards in fact he gave me a few i can go on and on after all this he gets with medicaid for his children gets over 100 thousand even more every word i wrote is toras emes.

Posted by: jancsibacsi | November 16, 2012 at 12:04 PM

The amount of money you claim your neighbor gets is not correct (unless he has a sick child or he or his wife is sick and they use lots of medicaid services).

But even if it were true, what you're doing in effect is asserting that we should not help the majority of the poor who are legitimately poor because a small number (in this case, of haredim) defraud these government programs.

Halakha deal with general issue. It would allow investigation to make sure that your neighbor isn't stealing, but it would not allow cutting aid to others just because your neighbor is a thief.

The facts are that the vast majority of America's poor are poor through no fault of their own. They aren't choosing not to work – in fact, many of them do work very hard but do so at very low-paying jobs.

America's minimum wage is less than $8 per hour. A person needs to earn more than $12 per hour and work full time to get above the poverty line.

In places like NYC, that $12+ per hour worker working full time will spend at least half his income on rent. Add in transportation, food and medicine and you quickly realize he doesn't make enough money to live.

They are the people who make your coffee, shelve and pack your groceries, and do many other service jobs that benefit you.

They are the working poor.

And they are the people who you want to deprive of food stamps and other government help because your neighbor steals.

[rebitzman]

I have a friend who gets close to $60,000 a year in government programs

If someone were to max out in social security disability benefits (no one actually does) they top out at $42,000 a year. If they then lied and got the Maximim in Welfare - that would be another $6705 - if they were to lie again and somehow manage to max out food stamp benefits - thatis another $12,600............so, by lying............$60k is possible.

It would also be a felony.

Someone is simply not telling the truth.

[Joel]

Shmarya, with this thing, I am, in matter of fact, with you on the same side.

[jancsibacsi]

Shmarya --What i am saying is that to get all theese benefits there should be more investigation or after they get it they should be more closely monitored you are righ the reall poor people should be helped no question about that but i suggest more monitering if the people who get it by the way someone who starts getting theese benefits and got it from when he had 1 or 2 children should not have on others account 10 or more children if they couldnt afford it when they had 2 why let them have 10 in fact after every child is born they get an extra 100 dollars

[A Yid]

Communal, or state welfare programs are one of the ways that the establishment perpetuates its power. Thus it makes political sense for a communal/rabbinic leader of a wealthy community to argue for substituting state welfare programs with private/communal/religious welfare programs.
Likewise it makes political sense for a potential leader seeking a crowd to lead to argue the opposite - the need to expand government welfare programs that consequently weakens ethnic and religious communities hurting his competition and earning points for himself with the political establishment.
So, as much as Shmarya tries to cloak your arguments in halacha (that he doesn't believe in) he remains self serving and very predictable...

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Since everyone thinks I'm lying, here's the numbers:

He has eight (8) children. His wife works and makes approximatelt $20,000 salary. He gets from the government:

$16,560 Section 8
$14,000 Food Stamps
$ 1,200 WIC
$ 1,680 LI-HEAP
$ 5,800 Federal Earned Income Credit
$ 1,160 NJ Earned Income Credit (20% of federal)
$ 2,550 Additional Child Tax Credit (refundable)
$18,000 Medicaid (Approx. cost of private insurance for family of 10)

This equals $60,950 in government benefits that this father of 8 receives from the government every year. I said "close to $60k" because its hard to say exactly how much he would have to pay for private health insurance for a family of 10 if this guy would get a job. Maybe less, maybe more.

[Joel]

LAC, you forgot that regular insur doesn't pay for all dentist bills for all of my 13 kids. Medicaid does pay. What about braces? Medicaid is Great.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

And that's without counting the Obama phone. I never asked him if he got the free Obama phone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio

[mimi]

"Charity as a private act lends moral perfection to the donor; the same cannot be said for a coercive taxation system that distributes only a small sum of the monies collected to the poor."

This is a false statement twice over. Government programs give consistently more to the poor, and those whe are taxed as in Europe feel the same sense of charity that a private donor does. Not that this matters, as charity is for the recipient, not the giver.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4785813.stm

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

LAC- Earned income credit and additional child care credit are only available if you are working and have a salary. So how much is this individual working and how much is he earning?

[MM]

Mr. Reisman, don't count on LAC to respond. However, his post says that the wife/mother is working and has an earned income of $20K. We don't know whether this couple has a legal civil marriage or just a halachic marriage. If the latter she is a single mother raising 8 children on $20K/year as far as the IRS knows. Or if they are legally married, then they filed a joint return claim $20K/year. By the time all the exemptions and deductions are taken, they qualify for tax credits. Meantime Mr. X, who is presumably sufficiently able-bodied to hold down a job, is sitting on his behind, while his wife works, has regular pregnancies, and provides care for 8 children and the taxpayers provide most of the material support. As for the wide, sucks to be her. And the husband, the life of Reilly.

[MM]

wide=wife

sorry for the typo

[devorah]

"LAC, you forgot that regular insur doesn't pay for all dentist bills for all of my 13 kids. Medicaid does pay. What about braces? Medicaid is Great."

Posted by: Joel

Ever think of buying a TV?

[Maskil]

Sometimes I comment because I wholely disagree. That is very, very seldom (super-seldom, actually). Mostly, to pick a bone with one or two small elements that I feel delegitimize the point being made, or at least can or will be used to delegitimize it. Then there are issues on which I'm silent (like MBP), becuase I have nothing to add, Shmarya has made a perfect point, and there is nothing to add. This was one of those times. But I feel like I should say something: I agree completely. I won't entertain arguements being made against the original post, because the post was so complete that it routes out any dissent.

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | November 16, 2012 at 12:51 PM

Family insurance is flat-rate. It doesn't vary based on the number of children.
So why doesn't the father work? Is he lazy? disabled? in Kollel?

[FrumButSentient]

In "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" a newer, better model for the fleecing of the productive citizen is put forward. Briefly (and you should certainly read it for yourself) Instead of using a "Left-Right" see-saw model to explain power division, with so called Democracy at the fulcrum in the middle, it instead uses a "power locus" model, in which the end results (at one end of the spectrum) of fascist tyranny are no different than confiscatory socialism are no different than Shamanistic Theocracy; Royal Monarchy equal to Plutocratic Rule of the 1% somewhat over to the right, Social Democracy equal to Republican Democracy in the middle, Pure Democracy / Libertarianism over to the center-right, and at the other extreme of the curve - anarchy. (Think on it a while - a brilliant chiddush - classification by power centrality rather than political philosophy)

All that is preface to the idea that which such a model, the thieving lying saprophyte entitled class that is the Charedim (those here and to a much greater extent in EY) overlay exactly in the same spot in the Fascist Theocracy model as the poor minority classes in the confiscatory socialist model (Hence the "inflammatory" article in the NYT which Shmayra agreed with but never flags at defending the counterpart.

In any event, this model makes it much easier to understand, at least a great deal of Pruzanski's truths regarding "pure entitlement" versus pure tzedaka.

Have you forgotten The Rambams ladder of Tzedaka? Did you forget "Better to flay donkey skins in the market place than accept tzedaka?" Moreso than the rhetorical question of "Do you think those who were truly needy were not addressed under the ancien regime?" rather, do you think welfare frauds, cheats, and goldbricks were well tolerated?

One of the (many) major deficiencies of Goliath government is that these swinlders, cheaters, liars, and parasites don't get weeded out; they multiply - both figuratively as well as literally - in Both populations.

So despite your antipathy towards her, it makes being a "Jewish Libertarian" of the Randian School that much more easy.

To paraphrase the movie "I see deadbeats" in black and white, and I see them in plain white, and I see them in plain black, and I see them in plain brown. None are worthy if they don't satisfy the criteria alluded to above [old, sickly, caring for a sick family member, etc.]. All feel entitled. And by the way - lack of skills doesn't count. You don't have to be a member of Mensa to srub floors, dishes, haul garbage, or . . . . .flay donkey skins in the market place. Chazal knew that. So did The Rambam. So does Ayn Rand.

[Yoel Mechanic]

Gaming the system exists, but that doesn't mean the system is wrong. Let's say the system attempts to minimize the gamers by ever increasing the hoops you have to jump through to get entitlements. I have a suspicion (but have no proof... so lets consider this a working hypothesis) that as you tighten up the system by making it really hard to obtain benefits you actually increase the percentage of gamers. Here is why: the gamers have all the time in the world to scheme and they will get around the hoops and roadblocks the system puts up. However, legitimate people who are unbelievably busy with three part time jobs who actually are entitled to some benefits simply will not have a moment to spare to fill out forms, repeatedly wait in lines and jump through the hoops. So the legitimate applicant actually could get weeded out by the barriers and hoops at a greater rate than the gamer who has nothing better to do. Now, perhaps some of the experts here might have data on this. I would think that a simplified system could be more effective in the long run.

[Korben Dallas]

Dear Marxists - No, you can't have my money. Enjoy your twinkies!

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: FrumButSentient | November 17, 2012 at 10:36 PM

So you follow the teaching of Ayn Rand, an atheist and apologist for Czarism? The woman believed that the only compelling human drives are greed and selfishness. She even dismissed charity (tzedakah) as an aberrational act. How can you call yourself "Frum" when you adhere to the deranged rantings of a sociopath like Ayn Rand?

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Hi guys,

Let me answer your questions.

First, about the cost of health insurance, I don't know exactly how much it would cost him, so I estimated $18k. Possibly a little more, possible a little less. With that estimate, which I think is reasonable, I reported to you that he makes "close to $60k from the government".

Yes, he is married to his wife, who makes $20,000. Therefore, he is eligible for Earned Income Credit and the Additional Child Tax Credit. But because they "only" make $20,000 they are also eligible for the rest of the welfare programs.

He himself sits in kollel all day and drinks coffee and smokes. He will never go to work.

I really appreciate all those who called me a liar. It shows that you really have no idea how welfare works in this country. You've given me the opportunity to point out to you how the welfare system (and the kollel sytem) works in this country, so you can better understand why I am so against it.

This person's wife earns $20k. In addition, they are eligible for an additional (approximately) $60k from the government. Together, that is $80k.

This person will never go to work. If he would go to work, he would lose $60k from the government, and make just $30k in starting salary. Why would he do such a stupid thing?

So there you have it. The welfare system is encouraging people to stay in kollel, to stay home, and not go to work. And to top it all of, they are making more money than the average working person in this country, which is approximately $50k. (It was around $55k four years ago.)

Now you understand what is wrong with our welfare system? You also need to realize that this guy is doing NOTHING illegal. He really doesn't work. His wife really makes $20k. He really does sit in kollel drinking coffee all day. He is legally poor and therefore legally entitled to all these programs. There is no requirement anymore that you need to try to find a job to be eligible for welfare. Obama removed that requirement. So this guy is totally legit.

And he will never go to work.

And there are thousands of people like him in the kolel system.

And there are millions of people like him all across America.

Our beautiful compassionate welfare system, at work - keeping people in poverty and in kollel forever and ever.

This is why we go crazy when you talk about how we need more and more welfare. You haven't the slightest clue what the welfare system has done to America. To you, welfare is an abstract idea, and it sound good on paper. But I know some of these people personally, and they are living rich - legitimately - off the welfare system, while the rest of us work very hard, earn an average salary of $50k, and then have to pay taxes to support these parasites.

This is nuts, to say the least.

[jancsipista]

Lubavitchers are Christians--I am with you on this one thousand per cent,it is truly a shame on us that so many people are hooked on welfare in fact over 25 years ago when i saw this rebbe he looked like a rebbe to me going to this welfare building i even turned from so much shame seeing him tottaly shameless and of course i know it for a fact that most of theese hareidim who collect it they do so to game the system its fun for them they enjoy beating the system

[FrumButSentient]

Posted by SkepticalYid

To Skeptical Yid: Do you have 6 wives? slaves? I didn't think so. Judaism, yes even Judaism evolves; borrows from other walks of life and theories; gives to them too. And that terrible curse word - modernizes!

My handle 'FrumButSentient' encompasses that. I am a Jew. I am frum. I detest the pederasty of Charedism, but even moreso the official policy of covering it up. . .etc.etc.etc all things not new to this blog. An ongoing fusion and constant re-evaluation of tenet and creed in light of new information and experience.

Torah values property and tzedakah. It walks a difficult line in doing so. Rand values property and hates tzedakah.

So please tell me why I cannot believe in a stronger property-values system concomitant with The Deity - against Rands wishes - much as Jefferson did - while at the same time believing in a more strictly "needs based" tzedaka system, as Chazal did on many occasions?

Fascistic and Socialist confiscatory thought and philosophy can evolve, but Libertarian thought cannot? I cannot believe in the basic economic paradigms and the underpinnings of the dignity, worth, and Liberty of Libertarianism without denigrating The Creator?

If you say yes, then you are a geocentric slave owning wife abusing polygamist who puts cat placenta dust in the corner of his eyelid so he can see the 50,000 shadim following him home every erev shabbos.

[jancsipista]

Lubavitchers are Christians-- I personally know at least of half a dozen people like you descirbe who live within a couple of hundred feet from me and its much worse then you describe they are millionaires i know it first hand i wrote before this guy has halk a mil. in stocks not on his name and partners with another guy who is even richer then the first they are thinking of buying another house they both get all the entitlements and more if i really tell you the turth you wont beleive me its a game by them and its fun nothing is on their name.

[Theory:]

As a hiring (and firing and scheduling) manager, I can tell you without any doubt whatsoever that government benefits -- or really benefits of any kind -- directly encourage people to be less productive. For example, if people work over X hours, their childcare and or social security and or food-stamp benefits become disproportionately reduced. I have to schedule around these concerns; in many cases, people have to be taken off the schedule for weeks at a time to compensate for working too much. I have conducted numerous interviews where the applicant is obviously throwing the interview -- by saying senseless and absurd thing -- just to climax with them asking me to sign their welfare/unemployment "I attended a job interview" form; many of them just ask to get it signed up front, without ever even participating in the interview process.

There really is nothing to debate about this.

Does that mean that we shouldn't give to the poor? Absolutely not. We should give to the poor, personally, or through charities or distribution systems that we know and trust; the Federal Government -- by its very nature -- does not qualify.

As to whether or not these people feel degraded by the handout, the answer is an unwaivering no. To feel degraded by a handout, one must possess honor; people who throw job interviews and or put no effort or sincerity into whatever legitimate work they have the opportunity to engage in have no honor. They simply believe that handouts are how the world works . Their lack of ambition is the result of their weak, capitulating nature, or their intense desire to simply accomplish nothing, and thereby degrade the value of ambition and accomplishment; "look at me, I'm doing what I want, and I don't have to contribute shit".

Lastly, from an economics standpoint, debt is not inherently bad; not repaying that debt (as a result of not being able to meet agreed payment schedules) is when it starts to become a problem. The truth is that any modern economy really has no interest in being entirely debt free; its a meaningless goal that sort of presuposes that we're not all always going to be here together, and that certain regions are not much better equipped to produce a given good than other locations, and that unforseen needs do occur.

For religious people though, the problem is fundamentally different. Making cheeseburgers may present a problem, so normal American entry level jobs may not be practical. Dealing directly with and even cleaning bathrooms after women (for men)may be problematic as well. I have been denied jobs when they learn that I don't work on Shabbos -- not in writing, but clearly by the look on their faces and their reactions when they learn of it in an interview. I see children forced to participate in Christmas programs in public schools because the school district "doesn't think Christmas is a religious holiday". What does that tell you about the public education system? Not too educated huh? I know people who have been forced to choose between Yom Kippur and (college) graduation because their instructors equate and denigrate any personal days off.

So trying to backhandedly smear religious people for utilizing government benefits by equating them to people who refuse to work but have none of the aformentioned religious prohibitions is ridiculous, its impractical, unfair, and unrealistic. More to the point, those religious people represent an incredibly small percentage of all the Americans who unjustly and destructively receive financial benefits; one cannot argue the validity of these programs based on such a non-representative, miniscule, and -- worst of all -- intentionally selected group.

Nevertheless, Mitt Romney is still a proud Mormon, Barak Obama encourages the world's youth to be gay, and most politicians including republicans do nothing to eliminate ridiculous and racist drug policies.

If you read that, I commend you.

[Theory:]

Swift notes on the above, in the debt section it should have read: "and that unforseen needs do [not] occur.

[DBSesq]

Like many poor scholars, Shmarya confuses two issues. This often happens when one must rely on secondary sources and is unable to read sources in their original. The act of giving tzedakkah is a private one. But the Kehilla could and did impose taxes on its members to support community institutions, including aid to the needy. But one could use is 'ma'aser money to fulfill those communal obligations, and oftentimes, the sliding communal taxes were based on a tenth of the individual's income. It as for that reason that in many kehillot, charitable organizations that received communal money did so on the condition that they not fund raise without the approval of the kehilla administration, so as not to compete and place undue burdens on the members. Howeverm it should be noted that every communal endeavor counted as charity. Thus for example, contributinb toward building a new synagogue did not count as charity nor did purchasing a seat in the synagogue. But if the community involved itself in things like feeding the hungry and clothing the needy, then money conributed and applied toward those endeavors, certainly did count as tzedakkah. Shmaryah, in his zeal to crucify anyone he doesn't like, ignores this distinction.

But more troubling is Shmarya's ignoring the Halachik hierarchy of entitlement to charity. As I'm sure he know, it is Torah scholars who get priority before all others. Considering Shmarya's insulting remarks about poor kollel learners, he seems to be nothing but a disgusting hypocrite. But we knew that already.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: DBSesq | November 18, 2012 at 10:49 AM

Danny Boy, Esq, the sleazy ethically challenged attorney and school board head again raises his very ugly head.

Process, slime ball:

The issue is not whether supporting the poor counted as tzedaka or didn't count as tzedaka. I never said that it did not; I never hinted that it did no; and no sane person would say that it did not.

What you note but completely gloss over is that giving money to the community's fund for the poor was also a tax and with that tax came some public coercion and penalties for being miserly.

Pruzansky lies when he calls giving tzedaka "a private act" and misleads when he says the king never taxed to support the poor. The Torah had already before there were any kings legislated that everyone had to give food, money and other assistance to support the poor, and mandated that farmers had to leave parts of their harvest in the fields for the poor to take freely.

Those are coerced actions. You do not have the option of refusing to give and if you do refuse to give you are branded a miser and treated accordingly.

Under rabbinic law gratuitous refusal to support the poor was punished, sometimes even with imprisonment.

Pruzansky lied.

You lie to support Pruzansky.

As for your claim that, "…it is Torah scholars who get priority before all others. Considering Shmarya's insulting remarks about poor kollel learners, he seems to be nothing but a disgusting hypocrite. But we knew that already," you forget to mention the clear instructions of the Shulkan Arukh with regard to this.

Torah scholars are not supposed to study but not work – they are expected to work to support their own study, and they like all other Jews are commanded to do everything possible to avoid becoming dependent on tzedaka, charity.

Today's 'Torah scholars' violate those provisions and in all but very rare cases do not deserve our support.

And you'd know that, Danny Boy, if you weren't a simple buffoon.

But in truth, that is all you really are.

[jancsibacsi]

DBSesq -- Todays toreh scholars in kollels and their leader are nothing but anti toreh freeloaders,their whole life is to self agrandize themselfs and dupe the ignorant public into supporting them their whole life is dedicated to suck out the money of the hard working person to make them feel guilty into giving them money if you dont see this then you are evil truly evil

[DBSesq]

Shmarya, you are a blithering idiot. What if the king chose not to tax for the support of the poor? The obligation to give charity would remain; thus rendering charity a private act. The king, or the kehilla had the power to take one's tithes and use them for charity in the name of the public good. But charity remains a private act between man and G-d. As to a Torah scholars obligation to work, I believe the responsa literature limits it to about two hours a day, maximum. Go learn something inside. There is little that is more goading than your ignorance based arrogance.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: DBSesq | November 18, 2012 at 11:51 AM

You're an ignoramus, Danny.

What the king did or did not do is irrelevant. The issue is what was done for much of the past 1800 years and the rationalization for it.

And, again, to say that tzedaka was a "private act" when the monarchy existed is wrong. It wasn't.

It was a Torah-mandated act and failure to do it led to various communal sanctions along with divine punishment.

Now waddle off.

[DBSesq]

You're simply wrong. There is nothing more to say about it. You're just wrong, wrong wrong. But more important than your silly error in this instance, you've amply demonstrated that you are incapable of any sort of inductive reasoning. That's probably why you left yeshiva; you were a failure at it.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: DBSesq | November 18, 2012 at 12:17 PM

No, Danny, I'm right, right, right. Ask a historian.

And I didn't fail at yeshiva – not by far.

You're a buffoon and an ignoramus, Danny Boy, not to mention all the other very negative traits you have.

Waddle off.

[DBSesq]

Actually Shmarya, rather than "waddle" I think I'll go learn Talmud with my son. You ever get to do that, learn with your son? It's a great pleasure, a true gift from G-d. Later I'll review my daughter's Chumash assignment with her. You ever do that; learn Chumash with your daughter? Between the two I'm not sure which is the greater thrill. What do you think Shmarya?

[jancsipista]

DBSesq-As they say in yiddish kenst ois vishen daynem tohes mit
dayn toireh,translation you can wipe youre behind with youre kind og toireh reaoning .

[DBSesq]

Janci, considering the years you have been in this country, it would behoove you to learn the language.

[jancsibacsi]

DBSesq--Considering that you are in this world many years i assume more then 40 it behooves you to have some itsi pitzi of a mind of youre own.

[Barry]

One of the greatest tragedies which afflicted Jews was that the nobility used Jews as agents to exploit and impoverish the serfs. The rich Jews who supported poor Jews and Torah scholars became rich from acting as tax farmers and tavern keepers. Of course the gentile serfs did not appear in any 'hierarchy of entitlement'. Unfortunately some Jews became corrupted and came to see such exploitation as normal even as healthy if this supported Torah scholars.

The modern equivalent of these corrupted Jews can be found in the East Ramapo School Board.

[dh]

Shmarya, DB is going off to be pleasured with his son and thrilled with his daughter (hopefully with the door wide open), but not before his first priority of insulting you because you may not have a child.

So, I'd like to offer you my first born. Really, he's no trouble at all.

[Jeff]

Janci, considering the years you have been in this country, it would behoove you to learn the language.

Oh, for God's sake, Danny. Why don't you tell that to your Haredi friends whose families have been here for two or three generations, yet who still read, write and speak at a third-grade level?

Honestly, that may be the stupidest remark I've seen posted on this blog.

[FrumButSentient]

Posted by: Theory: | November 18, 2012 at 09:50 AM

Theory - loved your first few paragraphs; if you permit me, they make a good matched set with some of mine. The last few paragraphs are a much more difficult discussion: which "gedolim" in Lakewood, Roshei Kollel or Roshei Yeshivot, do you think "davened" over whether they would take a job as a garbage hauler to pay homage to the self-sufficiency of Chazal, vs. sitting on their arses supposedly learning and teaching; (in reality smoking and drinking coffee, reproducing and corrupting, all while being paid by you and me)? Most saner observant Jews in the USA like you and I have real jobs, even and taking into account the juggling of torah u maddah. In EY, All the charedim scam everyone else and emulate more perfectly the lakewood gadol / avreich and the welfare ne'er do well you see at your jobsite every day. But that's a different story, too.

On another note, and as an overarching rhetorical complaint: Does it not add to the plummeting of self-esteem amongst torah observant Jews that pederasty and coverups are not enough; CNBC level theft and money laundering are not enough; arson and attempted murder through arson are not enough; that we need to be even SEMI-legitimately compared with obamaphone welfare cheats?

[Maskil]

And I didn't fail at yeshiva – not by far.

Shmarya, he's got a point. You completely failed to milk a fortune out of government assistance and charities while not actually working and not actually learning. Perhaps if you had you done that properly you might still be in yeshiva today. That's how really successful yeshiva students do it, while scorning anyone who is on public assistance or who lives on meager means. You need to admit that you failed to become wealthy and prominent without earning it.

[devorah]

"Actually Shmarya, rather than "waddle" I think I'll go learn Talmud with my son. You ever get to do that, learn with your son? It's a great pleasure, a true gift from G-d. Later I'll review my daughter's Chumash assignment with her. You ever do that; learn Chumash with your daughter? Between the two I'm not sure which is the greater thrill."

Daniel Schwartz, Esquire, is it the same thrill you get when you steal quality educations from the students in East Ramapo and the thrill you derive from slashing all of our property values? Are you teaching your children not to steal or embezzle or will they follow in your footsteps? Thus far, you have not been indicted, but rest assured, the state and the attorneys we have hired are working diligently to expose your fraud.

Before you condemn someone for not having children, imagine how your kids will feel when they come to visit in the pen. Jeremy Friehling and Madoff's son had to live with the disgrace of having their father's last name. I hope your son does not follow in their footsteps.

[Abracadabra]

Bravo Devorah! I second the motion!

Daniel Schwartz, Esq - you can learn all the Talmud and Chumash you want with your kids - but when they see you act like you do on that school board, they will learn from what you do.

Children learn very quickly that "If Totty lies, cheats and steals then we can too!"

If your kids are not visiting you in jail, perhaps you'll have the pleasure of paying them the visit. Then you can learn more Talmud and Chumash with them. May I suggest lessons such as "Midvar sheker tirchok" and "Tzedek Tzedek tirdof."

[Pearl of Wisdom]

Daniel Schwartz has to resort to insulting Shmarya and others on this blog because he is trying so hard to be a good boy in public these days. The East Ramapo School District that he presides over is a disgrace...certainly no charity there...just taking what ever he can get with both hands, while at the same time, looking over his shoulders to see what the AG is doing, or the lawsuit, or the commissioner of education, Dept. of Civil Rights, Inspector General. The sad part is that I just met with my child's teacher, who happens to be a wonderful Jewish teacher, the first thing the teacher did was to aplogize for the Board's actions against the District.

Yes, DBesq, you sure have a lot to be proud of. When was the last time you attended any school function? Oh, I know, it was graduation. Shouldn't you at least make believe that you care? You know, keeping up appearances might be a good way to through off the investigations. You could make believe you are a mensch. But then again, it is too late for that. We all know exactly who you are. Stop hurting kids!

What cuts will you make on Tuesday night? Will you cut Kindergarten for all the poor minority kids? Was the 14 million dollar deficit done on purpose to make the State deal with you? Go ahead, study the Torah with your kids while the public schools are destroyed. You remind me of Marie Antoinette....let them eat cake!

[devorah]

Daniel Schwartz, Esquire, how dare you bully another person for not having children! You are representing a school district and need to curb your enthusiasm when it comes to malevolence.

What you don't see with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth.
--Jewish Proverb

[Theory:]

Posted by: FrumButSentient | November 18, 2012 at 06:24 PM
Does it not add to the plummeting of self-esteem amongst torah observant Jews that pederasty and coverups are not enough; CNBC level theft and money laundering are not enough; arson and attempted murder through arson are not enough; that we need to be even SEMI-legitimately compared with obamaphone welfare cheats?

I try to not take things so personally; most people are ignorant of or insensitive to the meanings and implications of their life choices.

In any event, each of us has an individual responsibility to overcome our personal hurdles. Complaining about the past is, in my opinion, a waste of time.

It's like they said in Gemara, when you hear that a house is fallen, don't start praying that its not your house; it either is or it isn't; accept it and move on.