Haredi Rabbis Wrong About Circumcision, Rabbi Says

Rabbi Hershel Schachter says that haredi rabbis who insist on "following in the steps of our forefathers" are wrong, because they don't understand what the term "following in the steps of our forefathers" means.

Rabbi Hershel Schachter

Yeshiva University's rosh yeshiva Rabbi Hershel Schachter makes certain errors of history. To say that Jews were always doctors and scientists is ridiculous, for example. So is his implication that we circumcised our children and used mikvas because doing so was healthier – assertions Jewish law and recorded Jewish history don't make until after secular scientists posited these behaviors had health benefits.

And he still shows that he doesn't understand how science works.

But his point that rabbis 1800 years ago followed the best then-current medical advice, and if we want to follow in their steps today, we have to do the same – follow the best medical advice available – is true. He also argues that the rabbis should rule that metzitzah b'peh is not the correct way to do circumcision.

The audio, which was recorded on Tuesday November 13, 2012 at Young Israel of Forest Hills, Queens, New York, runs about 8 minutes long. 

Please click the gray bar to listen:

 

 

Rabbi Hershel Schachter 11-13-2012 Following in the Steps of Our Forefathers

 

 

Comments

[...]

You're so consumed with hatred that even when you have a tool (Shachter) to bash the charedim you still can't control your venom at the tool. Sad man.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

"[...] assertions Jewish law and recorded Jewish history don't make until after secular scientists posited these behaviors had health benefits."

You make a scintillating point here. Many frumme yidden like to hold up the Black Death as an example of Jews "outsmarting" the goyim with mitzvah observance. In fact, my wife and I were at a widowed rebbitzin's house last night and she trotted out this tired old tale.

Supposedly, Jews survived this pandemic because of strict adherence to the mitzvah of washing one's hands upon awakening. There is just so much wrong with people spewing this.

Some say the Black Death was a bacterial strain of Yersinia pestis. I'm so sure there are scores of studies that say pouring cold water on one's hands will offer immunity against Y. pestis. [I'm rolling my eyes really hard].

A growing body of scholars are getting on board with the idea that the Black Death was anthrax. No kind of hand washing is every going to beat that bad boy. To wit:

B. anthracis spores can live in the soil for many years -- a hella long time.

Humans can become infected with anthrax by handling products from infected animals
or by inhaling anthrax spores from contaminated animal products or by eating undercooked meat from infected animals

Some say a mutation of cattle Murrain -- an umbrella term -- for diseases affecting cattle. Some can affect humans. As long as we're guessing, take a guess of your own:

Rinderpest
erysipelas
foot-and-mouth disease
anthrax
streptococcus infections

So, what does this all mean? IMHO, it means that the Jews of the 14th Century -- like everyone else -- did not know about the connection between "germs" and hand washing. How then, can we be expected to make the leap that the practical, real world, aspects of washing their hands -- a side effect of their piety -- saved them from the Black Death?

Here's the Hareidi way of shooting a bullseye with a bow and arrow:

Aim arrow at barn wall
Fire arrow
Draw bullseye around arrow

[Shmarya]

You're so consumed with hatred that even when you have a tool (Shachter) to bash the charedim you still can't control your venom at the tool. Sad man.

Posted by: ... | November 17, 2012 at 11:09 PM

I accurately reported what he said and noted – accurately – that he made errors of fact.

The fact is that his understanding of medicine, science and history is childish and embarrassing.

However, I was kind enough not to write this.

But no good deed goes unpunished.

[Maskil]

Shmarya,

You did good by circumventing attacks on your citation of a super-genius who, in this instance, is right for the right reasons, but whom you habitually attack for childish simplicity. I clicked on this link to attack you for citing him, but I found your post perfectly worded. You shouldn't have to defend yourself for what you wrote.

[Phil]

So scientifically speaking, why weren't the Jews decimated by the black death?

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Drunks in Europe also did better in the middle ages because they drank beer instead of water. Fermentation killed the disease-causing bacteria that was in the water.

No one would suggest beer was invented as a way to cure the plague but once it was noticed that drunks were not getting sick, it wasn't hard to attribute health benefits to it.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

"Drunks in Europe also did better in the middle ages because they drank beer instead of water. Fermentation killed the disease-causing bacteria that was in the water."

You didn't need to be drunk to enjoy the health benefits from beer. Besides, being drunk all of the time is going to make a productive life impossible.

Europe, by the year 1000 [if the History Channel can be believed -- that's where I heard it -- about a year ago] had largely given up on water -- due to the unsanitary conditions of the time -- and turned to low alcohol beer as a source of hydration. The first hospitals built by the Roman Empire when Christianity became the official faith. Hospices were introduced later by Christianity after the fall of the Empire. It's no accident that monks got into the business of beer brewing, since they were already in the healing arts business.

Beer, of a very low alcohol content was an everyday drink during the Middle Ages in Europe. Cider and pomace wine was also commonly available. Some convents gave their nuns rations of six pints of ale a day. Wine made from grapes was a beverage for the upper classes.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

"So scientifically speaking, why weren't the Jews decimated by the black death?"

Posted by: Phil | November 18, 2012 at 01:24 AM

Below is a translation, from the Hebrew, of the epitaph of a Jewish victim of the Black Death. Proof positive, that the Jews were not spared from this awful pandemic.

Please prove, "scientifically speaking," that the Jews were not decimated by the Black Death.

The Epitaph of Asher aben Turiel
Toledo, Spain
1349

This stone is a memorial
That a later generation may know
That 'neath it lies hidden a pleasant bud,
A cherished child.
Perfect in knowledge,
A reader of the Bible,
A student of the Mishnah and Gemara.

Had learned from his father
What his father learned from his teachers:
The statutes of God and his laws.
Though only fifteen years in age,
He was like a man of eighty in knowledge.

More blessed than all sons: Asher-may he rest in Paradise -
The son of Joseph ben Turiel-may God comfort him,
He died of the plague, in the month of Tam muz, in the year 109 [June or July, 1349].

But a few days before his death
He established his home;
But yesternight the joyous voice of the bride and groom
Was turned to the voice of wailing.
[Apparently he had just been married.]

And the father is left, sad and aching.
May the God of heaven
Grant him comfort.
And send another child
To restore his soul.

[Phil]

Here's a source for the epitaph you quote:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/1348-jewsblackdeath.asp
That source also describes the mass killings and torture of the Jews who were blamed for the plague. One recurring theme of the accusations was that so few Jews were affected because they knew to avoid the "poisoned" wells. Anecdotal, but not more so than a single epitaph.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Could also be that middle ages Jews were busy being decimated by virtually everything (everyone) else.
What's a little Black Death here and there when they're trying to exterminate your entire village every week?

[jancsipista]

Phil--You are dead wrong recently i saw a programn on black death the jews were blamed for it then the pope and others came out to say that jews were as much effected as christians so it isnt the jews fault, i saw this programmn on the history channel it was fascinating.

[Baruch Shelo Asani Charedi]

We know the cause of boubonic plague (black death) because it stilł occurs occasionally in some Third World countries. The bacteria, yersinia pestis, is prevalent in rats, and it is transmitted to humans via flea bites. If Jews of the Middle Ages were somehow protected, this would be due to a practice which somehow eliminates flea or rat infestation. More likely, Jews were affected like the general population, and the myth of being somehow protected was propagated as an excuse to attack Jews.

[a]

What is happening with Weberman? I read that the case is being negotiated and he will be acquitted

[SkepticalYid]

Yah, it's about 5-15 cases a year, on average. Nowadays a course of treatment with drugs like gentamicin or tetracycline can cure most patients. Some evidence indicates that Jews were spared the worst of the plague because they were isolated in ghettos. Not because their hygiene was so much more meticulous. Fleas transmit the disease, and they don't much care about personal hygiene. They'll infest furniture and linensand bite you, no matter how clean a person might be.

[A. Nuran]

Phil, no matter how many times the rabbis lie to you, Jewish communities were decimated by the Black Death like everyone else. In areas where the ghetto was socially isolated from the larger population it took a little longer to get a foothold. Sometimes this was long enough for Christian neighbors to realize Jews hadn't dropped dead yet and start killing them.

Consider the Muslim world. Muslims were even more obsessed with physical cleanliness than Jews. The Plague went through their countries - Jewish, Christian and Muslim communities alike - like Sherman through Georgia.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

"That source also describes the mass killings and torture of the Jews who were blamed for the plague. One recurring theme of the accusations was that so few Jews were affected because they knew to avoid the "poisoned" wells."

Posted by: Phil | November 18, 2012 at 02:37 AM

Like Jews were never killed singularly or en masse based on mere rumors (cf. blood libels).

[toldos avrohom]

we need to all walk around in striped bekishas vi di toldos aharon oder toldos avrohom yitzhak hasidim

these are the only real jews

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

"We know the cause of boubonic plague (black death) because it stilł occurs occasionally in some Third World countries."

In the interest of precise speech, most scholars believe that the Black Death was a pandemic of bubonic plague.

[jancsibacsi]

toldos avrohom--They are the true schmocks and the true mental misfits among the jews they are making an absolute mockery of themselfs and all the jews we are being laughted at because of theese bozo clowns.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

So, basically,our conclusion is either
A. Jews were infected and died like everyone else, or
B. Jews did not get infected as quickly so they were blamed for causing the disease and killed by an ignorant Christian population.
Either way it sucked to be a Jew during a period of Black Death.

[Jeff]

Though only fifteen years in age,
He was like a man of eighty in knowledge.

He died of the plague, in the month of Tam muz, in the year 109 [June or July, 1349].

Impossible. Everyone knows no harm can come to one performing a mitzvah. [/sarcasm]

[dh]

As you know, I am fascinated by sewage, filth and disease and having read the first 45 or so pages of a number of books on it, hold myself out as an expert.

While everyone else shunned cleanliness, and variably used coarse brushes to get vermin off their filth caked bodies or just kept adding layers, the Jews had the mikvah. It was less of a cesspool than the cesspools and in some circles it is thought to have spared many Jews from the various plagues, epidemics and pandemics of the day.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

"[...] and in some circles it is thought to have spared many Jews from the various plagues, epidemics and pandemics of the day."

Posted by: dh | November 18, 2012 at 02:23 PMf

And in some circles it is thought that Bigfoot walks among us.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence — Carl Sagan

[dh]

"And in some circles it is thought that Bigfoot walks among us."

Nigritude Ultramarine @ 02:50 PM

Perhaps Bigfoot was discussed after page 50

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Bigfoot is Jewish?

dh, have you read Bill Bryson's Home? The history of our dwellings and hygiene practices. Pretty good read, and it sucks you in, way past the first 45 pages, with insight into trivia about things we take for granted that would provoke envy in Cliff the Postman from Cheers.

[dh]

Eli, yes, I read his entire book! Although nothing can surpass The Thunderbolt Kid. I also may have gone all the way up to page 70 in The Ghost Map. We really have no appreciation for human waste.

[MICHAEL ROLOFF]

Making it a taboo to compare male with female sexual mutilation is the biggest scandal of the controversy. In both instances the most sensitive and most erogenous zone of the human body is amputated and severely damaged. In both instances, what counts primarily is the cutting of human sexuality. The imposition of control by the patriarchy.

Also, unfortunately it is / has been circumcision that has MADE for no end of anti-semitic sentiments. Freud found that it was the chief reason for unconscious anti-Semitism. And the myths surrounding it are at the core of the “blood libel.” Thus, It's time to eliminate the Brit Milah because if that is the chief reason for being anti-Semitic or anti-Abrahamic [Islam too practices the rite] then why hang on to this left-over of human sacrifice? that traumatizesthe child, cutting off 5,000 nerves, that is the equivalent of female circumcision in the sense that it eliminates everything but the clitoris,and only serves the UltraOrthodox to maintain their power? After all, reform Judaism sought to eliminate the rite in the 19th century, and Jewish identity depends on being born by a Jewish mother, or converting. Here a link to an archive of the entire German and then some debate, note especially Michael Wolffsohn's two pieces . Circumcision has been controversial also within Jewry forever.

http://analytic-comments.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-circumcision-debate-links-and.html

http://analytic-comments.blogspot.com/2012/10/michael-wolffsohns-foreskin-of-heart.html


http://www.facebook.com/mike.roloff1?ref=name

[jancsibacsi]

MICHAEL ROLOFF-I dont think that brit dimishes sexual pleasure at all,i cant fathom having more pleasure then i have:)

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: jancsibacsi | November 18, 2012 at 06:22 PM

More pleasure would probably give you carpal tunnel syndrome ;-)

[Yosef ben Matitya]

Ahhh, clearly, this moron happens to be not sefardi either!
who knows? he could be even an MO!

[Diplogeek]

In all likelihood, the Black Death may have taken a bit longer to hit Jewish communities in Europe because they tended to be forcibly segregated from the main population. I would also speculate (based on nothing but my own hunch) that the practice of Communion may have accelerated the spread of the plague in Christian communities in a way that would not have happened in Jewish ones.

Meanwhile, this video will give you a musical rundown on the basics of the Black Death:

http://youtu.be/rZy6XilXDZQ