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November 14, 2012

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Straightt

5,6000 Join Organization For Orthodox And Haredi Homosexuals


How sad.

flat earth

At least they won't have 12 kids.

gopjew

>> 5,585 of them from haredi and religious homosexuals

now we know why there is a shidduch crisis. roflmao

gopjew

zzzzz

How stupid

You can't be Homosexual and hareidi. You can't be honest and a thief. You can't be orthodox and do men.
So the organization is bull shit.

Yochanan Lavie

All Scotsmen like haggis. No true Scotsman hates haggis.

TBA

So the implication is that conversion therapy doesn't work? How about citing the vast number of cases where it was very effective when managed properly by well educated American psychotherapists?

Ari Gold

>> 5,585 of them from haredi and religious homosexuals

now we know why there is a shidduch crisis. roflmao

Posted by: gopjew

Lmao.

Shmarya

So the implication is that conversion therapy doesn't work? How about citing the vast number of cases where it was very effective when managed properly by well educated American psychotherapists?

Posted by: TBA | November 14, 2012 at 10:15 AM

There are no "vast number" of cases. In fact, all the recent data shows that conversion therapy doesn't work and is probably dangerous.

dd

@How stupid ,

...' you can't be orthodox and do men '....
of course , you can . there are thousands of orthodox or haredi that are homosexuals . ( may be not you , but it exists ) . separating men from women breeds homosexuality . you need to change the system .

you really are stupid .

Jeff

5,6000 Join Organization For Orthodox And Haredi Homosexuals

How sad.

Posted by: Straightt | November 14, 2012 at 08:13 AM

Right, because why should they have community and a sense of belonging when they could feel ostracized and alone?

gopjew

i feel bad for homosexuals who can't get married and have their own kids; as I would for anyone who misses out on an ordinary part of the human life cycle.

The In-the-Knower Rebbetzin

"So the implication is that conversion therapy doesn't work? How about citing the vast number of cases where it was very effective when managed properly by well educated American psychotherapists?

Posted by: TBA | November 14, 2012 at 10:15 AM"

Babes, the American Psychological Association has ossured reparative therapy on the grounds that a) it does not work and b) that it does terrible harm to those who endure it.

Of those for whom it "works", all continue to struggle with homosexual desire till the end of their days. They continue to live tortured existences. They are never cured. They are at best, abstinent. Reparative therapy doesn't work.

One of the heads of Exodus (a leading Reparative Therapy Centre in the USA) relapsed, left the organisation and admitted publicly that it does not work and is a massive fraud.

JONAH, the Jewish version of Exodus is run by a known fraudster.

Rabbi Chaim Rapoport has written a book on the orthodox perspective on homosexuality. Don't laugh or mock the serious plight of gay people who had the misfortune to be born into a "frum" community. May they all find true Torah communities where they can live their lives with openness and acceptance in the spirit of the mitzva d'oraysa - ve'ahavta leryacha kamocha.

The In-the-Knower Rebbetzin

Its considered a breach of the APA's Code of Ethics, as well as that of the UKCP.
APA:
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf

UKCP:
http://www.psychotherapy.org.uk/article1260.html

Excerpt from UKCP's statement:
"no responsible psychotherapist will attempt to 'convert' a client from homosexuality to heterosexuality ('reparative' therapy)."

The In-the-Knower Rebbetzin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytzzq9rwhQA
Jewish gay men speak

Garnel Ironheart

How would seating work in a gay shul?
The whole point of separation of men and women is to prevent inappropriate thoughts. But separate seating in a gay shul would be pointless because neither side is interested in the other. Would they have to seat men and women alternating?

zionist goy

What ever happened to self-discipline, right and wrong, "conventional" societal values? they change or become the subject of a shiva sitting.......Tanakh speaks of sodom and Gemorrah, oh, i know, that's simply allegorical.

Dave

Zionist goy, I have given up trying to argue the case for traditional Jewish morality in real life or on a blog. The politically correct brigade always wants to shut us down. Fine, but then why bother to even bring up the subject?

The In-the-Knower Rebbetzin

Garnel:
Separate seating and many other structures within traditional orthodoxy simply don't work for gay people. This is why so many gay people from faith based communities are left feeling marginalised within the communities in which they were born. For many, this sense of dislocation and isolation borne of something they never asked for (gayness) is a precipitant of suicidal feelings and attempts.

It is precisely the religious gay person's wish to remain torah true that sits in conflict with how they were made by God. Many are left feeling fundamentally bad as a result of just their inclinations alone, we are not even talking about actions - ie regardless of whether or not they act on ta'avah. They feel they are essentially bad just for the way they are born.

Reparative therapies prey on those feelings of isolation and badness and offer this panacea. Born of Christian ideology, success in RT is defined by the goal of celibacy rather than the Jewish dictum to be fruitful and multiply. For a Jewish gay person, reparative therapy when it "works" still leaves one socially isolated and unable to live live fully as a Jew. See the link below from an ex-yeshiva guy's experience with reparative therapy:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jayson-littman/jewish-ex-gay-movement_b_1105011.html

Zionist goy - you ask about self discipline. Is it fair and reasonable to ask someone who is born gay to never have what you have on a daily, weekly, monthly basis? How many people seek extra-marital daliances (see other stories on FM for Rabbinic dalliances with and without towels) and are unable to remain abstinent? Is halacha demanding from gay people something that is unrealistic? Unattainable? Inhumane? Something that even people with halachic outlets (marriage) are unable to attain? (Even single people - alter bochurs and bochurettes - live with the hope that some day they will have a fruitful relationship. That keeps them going. For a gay person, celibacy is a life -death- sentence. Not to mention tefillin dates!)

Dave - this is a big subject so no wonder you are tired. There is more to think about here. If your basis for arguing the case for "traditional Jewish morality" is simply "its not what we do" or "halacha doesn't permit that", you have done yourself and our community in its entirety the disservice of offering shut down, robotic, mechanical Judaism at its worst.
Get educated and start to think empathically (isn't that how a true psak halacha is derived?). Watch Trembling Before God. Read Jayson Littman's article above. Read Rabbi Rapoport's book "Judaism and Homosexuality". Maybe go talk to him. Become informed and develop your empathy. You will then be on the road to becoming a true traditional Jewish person with the capacity to think and feel. Your position may not change but your depth of understanding might, and you may not feel you have to give up.

Back to Reparative Therapy. My final point (for now) is a quote from Chaim Rapoport who said, "I am not obligated to believe in a failed therapy because it fits my theology better."


S. Benson

"Separating men from women breeds homosexuality . you need to change the system"
Wrong.
Gender identification is established in childhood. Homosexuality is present in other societies--one's that do not separate the sexes.

Dave

In-the-Knower Rebbetzin, who ever said I was Orthodox. I am just traditional. There is constantly news and views about gay people by gay people and by others in the media. We are bombarded with it. As they say in Hebrew, "maspik"! It is an incontrovertible fact that anal sex is medically dangerous for men or women. No-one can deny this, whatever political spin they want to put on it.
I assure you I no longer speak of my opinion to anyone in real life. I hope that is sufficient for all the gay people out there. You have shut down this Jewish social conservative. I hope they are happy.

The In-the-Knower Rebbetzin

"Zionist goy, I have given up trying to argue the case for traditional Jewish morality in real life or on a blog. The politically correct brigade always wants to shut us down. Fine, but then why bother to even bring up the subject?

Posted by: Dave | November 14, 2012 at 09:31 PM"

Dave, you were shut down before I even started. Stop projecting. This wasn't about the medical risks of anal sex. Its about being gay and whether or not an orientation can be changed.

Whatever your religious leanings, I accept that your ignorance is your own.

Jeff

ITK Rebbetzen - Dave has serious problems with homosexuality, which he rationalizes using such terms as "traditional Jewish morality". He's been called upon it here a number of times, and it always devolves to, "I feel the way I feel, I don't have to justify it and you aren't going to change my mind!"

The bottom line is that no one here even bothers to challenge him on it any longer. He's generally rational about other issues.

The In-the-Knower Rebbetzin

Jeff-he's probably closeted. That's a terribly juvenile and unthought through response. If he is indeed closeted, I hope he knows there are resources out there that can help him first, come out to himself, and later to come out to the world. It may help to defuse some of his anger and help him to lead a more complete life. Yes, there are halachic and philosophical challenges, but others have grappled with this before. There is strength in community.

Thanks for clarifying, tho'.

Dave

In-The-Knower Rebbetzin, I don't know where you get off making such statements as "he's closeted". Total bullsh-t. I am a very happy heterosexual. Your statement is rude, hurtful and bordering on libellous.
You have never met me, so you have absolutely no way of judging me.
Since you cannot force me to change my mind, you resort to "ad hominem" attacks.
I have thought out all my responses. You and others of the gay support brigade seem incapable of admitting that anal sex (which is totally assur by the Torah) is totally medically contra-indicated and dangerous, so you resort to ad hominem attacks.
Jeff, let's be quite honest my friend. In the 1970's all organized Jewish movements, from Reform to Orthodox did not accept homosexuality as a valid lifestyle. After heavy societal pressure have the liberal movements caved in.
I have read the scientific literature about the dangers of male homosexual behaviour. Have any of you????

The In-the-Knower Rebbetzin

Dave, my comment was a speculative observation based on the type of veiled homophobia you display. You offer no informed opinion to the discussion, just a defeatist, "poor me" knee jerk response.

For example, "Zionist goy, I have given up trying to argue the case for traditional Jewish morality in real life or on a blog. The politically correct brigade always wants to shut us down. Fine, but then why bother to even bring up the subject?"

This sounds like the homophobia of a closeted person. If you are not as you say you aren't, then fair dues. My comment, though, is far from libellous. Dave may or may not be an alias. You are unidentifiable so its hardly a smear campaign. You enter into a discussion but then you're not in the discussion, then you want to run screaming saying "you hurt my feelings". Make your mind up. in or out, closet or otherwise.

Re: your comment about 1970's: society develops and moves on as their understanding develops. Women now have the vote!

Its really great that you are concerned about the anuses of gay men. I suggest that you let the homosexuals worry about their butts. Instead, perhaps you might benefit from some thought about your relationship to people who are/may be different than you.

Dave

In the-Know Rebbetzin, you did hurt my feelings and you know it.

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