Three Members Of Women Of The Wall Arrested

Three members of the Women of the Wall group were arrested yesterday while trying to pray at the Western Wall in Jerusalem.

Anat Hoffman arrest

+972 reports that:

Anat Hoffman, was arrested last night for “disturbing public order,” while trying to pray at the Wall. Director Lesley Sachs and board member Rachel Cohen Yeshurun were detained Wednesday morning for the same offense.

Rachel and Lesley were released after a short detention at the police station in the Old City, although Anat Hoffman was taken to the police station at the Russian Compound. She has refused to speak to the police without the presence of an attorney and was held in detention the entire night. At the time of writing, Anat was undergoing interrogation. Other members of the organization held their morning prayer outside the police station; members of Israel Religious Action Center also arrived at the station.

How did these women "disturb the public order"?

They wore tallits, prayer shawls, an act that offends haredim – even though women are permitted (but not encouraged) to wear tallits under Jewish law.

Update 5:12 pm CDT – Debra Nussbaum Cohen has more detailed information posted on the Sisterhood blog.

Hoffman was at the Western Wall with a group of about 200 Hadassah women in Israel for Hadassah's convention. Among them were rabbis and cantors.

They went to Wall to pray and Hoffman went with them. She was leading the Hadassah women in the Shema when this happened:

…a policeman approached her and told her to stop reciting the prayer or she would have to go with him.

“I stopped saying Sh’ma but there were 10 cantors and 200 women around me, and they continued,” she told The Sisterhood. “Then he forced my hand behind my back and started walking me very fast to the police. Most of the Hadassah women were in shock. They didn’t know exactly what to do. The board of Women of the Wall followed me. When I was moved at 3:00 A.M. from one police station to another, two members were waiting there for five hours.”

Hoffman was handcuffed by police and told that she had refused to cooperate, “which was just a lie,” she said. “There was no resistance at all.”

When, at the police station, she was told to move from one chair to another, “I thought I should show him what noncooperation looks like,” and refused to move, she said. “When I refused to move, he dropped me to the floor and dragged me with the handcuffs.”

Later, when she was being taken to court, police put leg shackles on her. A judge released her on the condition that she agree not to go to the Western Wall for any reason for 30 days or be fined 5,000 shekels.…

Hoffman was kept in a cell without a bed overnight along with a prostitute and a car thief. She slept on the floor with her multicolored tallit as a blanket – police did not confiscate it because they did not recognize that it was a tallit.

The two other Women of the Wall members were arrested this morning at a separate prayer sevice.

Hadassah is giving Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and award named for its founder, Henrietta Szold.

Hadassah is doing this even though Netanyahu has been horrible on women's issues and has tried to skirt High Court of Justice rulings forbidding gender segregation on public buses and streets.

Comments

[David]

They wore tallits, prayer shawls, an act that offends haredim – even though women are permitted (but not encouraged) to wear tallits under Jewish law.

Just as women are halachically permitted to wear tefillin although are not encouraged to do so. In fact, it is said that Rashi's daughters and the Lubavitcher Rebbe's wife did so.

[Jeff]

Fucking Haredi terrorists. I'm sick to death of them commandeering both Israel's religious life and its social service system, and the corrupt and spineless politicians, judiciary and police who make it possible for them to do so with impunity.

Not ONE MORE shekel for Israel until it begins the process of disenfranchising them.

[Maskil]

No, permitted to wear tefillin, not talit (under Jewish law). Under Israeli law (Hight Court ruling) they aren't allowed to do that there, but were given a part of the Western Wall where they could. But for these cunts the Western Wall isn't enough ... it has to piss people off.

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

Last Sukkoth I went to my city's Chabad sukkah(althought I don't like Chabad)and one of the guys present solemnly explained to me that women were NEVER allowed to wear tefillin and tallit;and only silly Reform Jews do these things.This shows how ignorant Lube-a-bitches are!

[Rebitzman]

@Maskill

They were in the women's section - the crime was being audible when they said the Sh'ma

And did the Rebbe teach you to say "cunt"?

[Rebitzman]

Oh, and "exempt" does not mean "forbidden".

You really need to study.

[ellen]

Maskil: That language is not OK.

[evanstonjew]

The Forward presents an account how Anat Hoffman was treated at the police headquarters. Totally unacceptable.

http://blogs.forward.com/sisterhood-blog/164434/police-shackle-anat-hoffman-for-saying-shma-at-kot/

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

I thought the Supreme Court ruled that they cannot wear the talit in the regular women's section.

Just as we expect haredim to follow the Supreme Court ruling, and not segregate men and women in the streets of Meah Shearim, we should expect the Women of the Wall to follow the Supremem Court rulilng and not wear a talit in the regular women's section. Rather they should pray in the section that the Supremem Court set aside for them.

Not that I agree with the Supremem Court. But the Supreme Court rulings must be upheld by all, not just by the haredim.

[anchell]

and so the fashion police strikes again! i used to believe this kind of thing was limited to more oppressive social conditions, and, yet, the more each claim to be different the more i can see that they are the same!

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

But what is the TRUE halakha on women wearing tefillin/tallit?Permissible or forbidden?

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Maskil
"But for these cunts the Western Wall isn't enough ..."

"C*nt". Such a learned, well thought out response. Definitely an argumental debate word taught to you from the Female side of your family.

"it has to piss people off."

It pissed you off, didn't it, you misogynistic religious zealot?. But, do go on. Such intelligent retorts on Women just reinforces the Extremist Charedim's view of them.

[Alter Kocker]

Once again, the tail wags the dog.

Brilliant, the Israeli government should be so very proud. What we despise in our opponents in the middle east, we seem to feel free to practice in the jewish homeland.

[kyle]

Ellen, shut the fuck up you ugly Cunt

[Seraphya]

Rabbi Akiva was also tortured for saying the Shema aloud

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

"C*nt". Such a learned, well thought out response. Definitely an argumental debate word taught to you from the Female side of your family.

Posted by: Bob Guthrie | October 17, 2012 at 05:15 PM

Nope. If you really want to know where he learned how to speak like that, he probably learned it from Bill Maher, who called Sarah Palin a cunt.

http://www.dallasvoice.com/maher-your-beautiful-theater-gonna-long-1070487.html

Or perhaps he learned it from Howard Stern who called Sarah Palin a cunt on the following video at 1:55

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voKRFp3-k4k

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians
"he probably learned it from Bill Maher..."

Oh, for Pete's sake.

LaC, just post your as nauseam mantra of "By the way, as Illinois state senator, Barack Obama voted to allow the killing of a live child if the child survived an abortion attempt and was born live", and get back to the point of the discussion.

Way to freakin' derail an ongoing thread, LaC. =/

[Shmarya]

Posted by: kyle | October 17, 2012 at 05:26 PM

'Kyle' is actually Bob Abouey, who is, I believe, really 'Secular Jew' and 'SJ,' the deranged blogger who grew up Orthodox, claims to have become secular and then morphed into a Hebrew Christian believer in Jesus.

SJ is also a right wing fanatic as many of you remember.

His behavior here is just another in a long line of examples of his illness.

The sad thing is that I allowed him to comment here, to attack me, to attack views and ideas he dislikes, even to attack others.

But I would not allow him to continue to post comments once I found out that he was a Hebrew Christian, unless he changed his screen name, etc. to properly reflect that fact.

He refused.

This isn't an indictment of Christians or Hebrew Christians or right wingers.

It is simply bad behavior from one particular person, no more, no less.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: kyle
"Ellen, shut the fuck up you ugly C***."

How pathetically expected you zeroed in on the only female in the discussion.

[kyle]

Bob Guthrie
You shut the Fuck up as well, you pile of horse shit

[Maskil]

I live in Israel. I see as much British TV as American. They can say "cunt" after a certain hour (maybe even on prime time). I didn't use the word about "women" - I can't possible know all the women in the world - just these three. They are forbidden in Israel from doing what they did in the women's section by a High Court ruling. In halacha they may wear tefillin, and while exempt from putting fringes on their four-cornered garments, after millenia of the tallit being used just by men it became forbidden for women to wear, as it is a man's garment (unlike women's pants).

[Bob Guthrie]

The Israeli Supreme Court allowed The Women of the Wall the right to hold prayer groups and read Torah at the wall in 2002.

Shas and the rest of the Charedim parties went ballistic, trying to pass bills to reverse the Courts' decision (one Charedim sponsored bill would have made it a criminal offense for women to pray in a "non-Charedim" way, punishable by up to seven years in prison). None went through.

But, under pressure, the Israeli Supreme Court reversed its decision on 2003.

And here we are today, women getting arrested to assert their right to pray, and Extremist Charedim zealots calling them C****. Ah, progress.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Maskil
"I live in Israel. I see as much British TV as American. They can say "cunt" after a certain hour."

That is the most logic twisting excuse to call a member of the opposite sex a C***, Maskil.

"I didn't use the word about "women"... just these three."

Oh, you don't call "women" C****, just these three "women". Gotcha. =)

"They are forbidden in Israel from doing what they did in the women's section by a High Court ruling."

Yes, but the Supreme Court didn't say "You can't pray there, you C****!".

Oh, but do so continue. Never seen somebody dig himself deeper with each passing post since grandpa's meltdown a few months back. ^.^

[shoshy]

A man's garment? Have you seen that tallis? It's pink and purple with flowers on it. How many guys you know wear a tallis like that? She said the police in jail didn't even recognize it as a tallis.

[Maskil]

You know I post on Shabbos and Yom Tov, even Yom Kippur, so your use of "charedi" seems quite encompasing. When I was a kid you couldn't say "damn" on late night, now they air "bitch" on prime time (in relation to human women). You champion the rule of law and the supreme cournt when it suits you and then denegrate them when it doesn't. Just admit you haven't respect for either. The court gave them their own section of the wall, the Western Wall. Don't get your panties all in a bunch about a completely arbitriary sentiment about an English word. These mentally damaged broads thrive on masochistism and are only seeking to provoke. It's pathetic that foreigners select them as a cause de celebre.

[Maskil]

Posted by: shoshy | October 17, 2012 at 06:15 PM

I've seen some strange stuff from the men's department that has raised questions in Haredi circles regarding the permissiblity for a man to wear it. The whole fashion industry is a complecated formula. Technically, we are halachically forbidden from wearing "Gentile clothing" (i.e. style specific to Gentiles). Somehow we went from middle-eastern robes to western suits. Didn't that involve a lot of violations, and was the norm actually decided by the violators? I don't know, but if we're talking halacha the desighn of the four-cornered garment-blanket (or poncho, as with the tallit katan)with fringes was ruled to be distinctively a male garment based on common useage. That hasn't changed yet, and Shmarya didn't look up the source before he lumped it together with tefillin to declare halachic permissibility. On that I corrected him.

[Bob Guthrie]

"When I was a kid you couldn't say "damn" on late night, now they air "bitch" on prime time."

You know, most educated, sane people would realize by now that "uh, this ain't working", and admit that they screwed up...

"Just admit you haven't respect for either."

...Instead of throwing everything against the wall, including kitchen sink, to see what sticks to justice the faux pas.

"Don't get your panties all in a bunch about a completely arbitriary sentiment about an English word."

I'm not. Just pointed it out your crass use of the term. You are the one twisting yourself into a pretzel, writing long, rambling diatribes trying to justify its use. ^.^

"These mentally damaged broads."

And deeper we go!. =D

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: Maskil | October 17, 2012 at 06:25 PM

So in reality, you're not Orthodox. You're a mechalel shabbos and y't who defends them incessantly because when it comes right down to it, you're a troll.

[Maskil]

I'm not a physician, but it seems like you could use a tampon and a heavy pain killer.

[Rebitzman]

@Shmarya

The plethora of potty mouthed "religious" Jews and Hebrew Xtians spamming the board at this moment forces me to ask.......

Exactly how hard ARE you laughing right now?

[Rebitzman]

as it is a man's garment

It's a square piece of cloth patterned after the square piece of cloth worn by our ancestors - male AND female, from which we. Are commanded to hang fringes......

Because wearing one us a time bound mitzvah, it is not an obligation for women to wear one. Exempt or not, It is not now, nor has it ever been, forbidden to wear.

[Maskil]

Posted by: SkepticalYid | October 17, 2012 at 06:48 PM

The Women of the Wall are Orthodox, while the Supreme Court is not. I'm not defending anyone. I'm saying that these women are emotionally damaged and seek out provokation, and that the only thing that satiates them is being violently attacked. That's why they did this in the Women's section despite several previous arrests and having their own are of the Western Wall where they can do this ... only it doesn't seem to bother anyone when they do their shtick there.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Maski
"I'm not a physician, but it seems like you could use a tampon and a heavy pain killer."

You guys are so cute when you are so riled up. Predictable too. An insult from an Extremist Misogynistic Charedi?. My, I'm shocked!. Shocked, I tell you!. ^.^

Here's a loli. Now go play ball on a busy highway. That's a good lad. =)

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: shoshy
"She said the police in jail didn't even recognize it as a tallis."

Which easily points out that she was targeted just for her presence at the site. Missing a chance to tack an additional "criminal" charge of improper use of the Tallit?.

Naw, mark and retrieve. Secondary charges of no concern.

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: Maskil | October 17, 2012 at 06:57 PM

You would have probably said the same about the Suffragettes or Abolitionists.

[Maskil]

Posted by: Rebitzman | October 17, 2012 at 06:55 PM

Yalkut Yosef vol. I, Law of Tzitzit chapter 17. I didn't make the halacha, I'm just reporting it.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Maskil
"I'm saying that these women are emotionally damaged... and that the only thing that satiates them is being violently attacked."

Amazing how you can dig yourself further down the hole with a foot in your mouth. that's skill there, bubbeh.

Proceed on (like watching a live wreck). =)

[Jeff]

Frum trolls and their apologists. You people are garbage. Garbage.

People like you were the cause of 2,000 years of persecution. You were the reason for the Holocaust.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

Anat Hoffman is lucky that is not in jail like Pussy Riot or getting a bullet in her head like Malala.

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: Bassy the Haredi Slayer | October 17, 2012 at 07:15 PM

So you're suggesting that her opposition are just as totalitarian and extremist and the Russian FSB and the Taliban? That's about right.

[Rebitzman]

@Maskill

That a senile old man wrote to change 3500 years of hallachah does not make it hallachah.

Both the Rambam and Rabbeinu Tam ruled that as long as the woman is doing so for reasons of the soul, she is allowed. If you prefer more modern sources, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein(Chabad - so this ain't no liberal voice) that a woman who wears a tallit should be rewarded for it. R. Yomtob b Yisroel Alghazi encouraged women to wear them in the belief that they inspired men to be more strict.

Never mind the source you "cited" doesn't quite say what you claim.......

[Rebitzman]

R. Yosaif actually says "it is preferred that they not wear".

He does not state that the hallachah forbids it.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Maskil
"I didn't make the halacha, I'm just reporting it."

Not doing a good job, skippy.

According to Halakha law, women are not obligated to wear a Tallit. "Not obligated" does not equate "prohibited from".

Rabbi Moshe Feinstein(*), an authority and scholar on Halakha law, stated that a woman who desires to wear a tallit may do so for prayer, provided that she wears a distinctively feminine Tallit.(**)

(*) Rabbi Moshe Feinstein on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Feinstein
(**)"She slept on the floor with her multicolored tallit as a blanket."

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Rebitzman
"He does not state that the hallachah forbids it."

Hole in one. And looks like we both almost crashed on pointing out Rabbi Moshe Feinstein's ruling. Hats off to your knowledged insight. =)

[Nobody]

Those saintly dolls ought to do the prayer job up on the Temple Mount, where it counts, instead of by Herod's wall.

[Maskil]

שהעיקר לדינא שאין בזה האיסור הנז' מכל מקום ראוי למונען מזה

There are a lot of things that are not forbidden "me'ikkar ha-din," but they are still forbidden. His ruling is that they should not wear it; that is "forbidden."

I retract my previous claim, both in regard to עדי איש, as well as in regard to prohibition. While Yalkut Yosef does forbid it (many things are permitted "me'ikkar ha-din" but are still forbidden) he does not mention a feminine tallit, and it can be assumed the two agree. I should have brought this up earlier, but I was thinking about YY's mention of "concern for men's clothing," even though he then dismisses it, and the fact that the Women of the Wall are Orthodox, so they wouldn't take on a custom that's prohibited, and trying to formulate a scenario to discern the degree to which this "concern" exists (is it a rejected opinion? Does he disregard it just because he's going to forbid it anyway, but he would give it weight le-humrah?). Now that Bob mentioned R' Moshe's ruling I concede unreservedly on both accounts, and I apologize to Shmarya.

[Mitch]

Three Members Of Women Of The Wall Arrested

Thank you, you made my day.

The women "off" the wall are back. Every so often they crawl out of their holes to get a few minutes of "fame".

[Unheilige rebbe]

According to ספר חינוך women are allowed to put tfilin and they do get shar and we don't protest ; michal bat shoul (dovid hamelech's wife) did wear a tfilin and no one stopped her ( אות תכא); same thing tzizis can wear some mforshim say with brocha (ois שפו)

[S M L]

Only in Israel among Westernized countries are Jews not free to practice their religion as they see fit and to marry whom they please.

[spacedout BT]

The file will close on this issue when they don their tefilin and talitot and no one will pay any attention whatsoever.

[Rebitzman]

@Maskil

I wasn't actually expecting a real discussion.

Well done, sir.

[Korben Dallas]

This is happening because the ignorant, shallow, and pathetic pieces of shit at Chabad are in fact bowing to an idol. No self-respecting Jew should care if they live or die.

[LionofZion]

By law, the Kotel plaza is an Orthodox synagogue. I would not walk into a Reform temple and start asking people to change their seats or unplug the sound system. The women of the wall, some radical feminist, some lovers of Judaism seeking a closer connection to G-d, some both, should respect the rules of the synagogue where they seek to pray.

[Jerry]

So what sort of state is Israel when they can make it illegal for some Jews to wear certain religious items or to pray in an audible manner? A fascist theocratic Taliban state and certainly not worthy of the support of other Jews. As for the dirty mouth misogynists Maskil and Kyle you are a disgrace and embarrassment to your own mothers and sisters.

[NeverFrum]

So Haredi people can throw stones at cops and not an arrest is made.....three women pray at the wall and they are detained. I think I will re-think where my charity dollars go next high holiday season.

[Friar Yid]

But for these cunts the Western Wall isn't enough ... it has to piss people off.

Let's review- a group of Jews came to the Kotel and prayed. Cops violently dragged them away and arrested them for not having penises. People like you are saying they deserved it.

Who's the cunt?

[Jeff]

I think I will re-think where my charity dollars go next high holiday season.

Yes, please do - and please write to the organizations to which you previously gave, and explain to them the reason you're no longer donating to them.

Let's review- a group of Jews came to the Kotel and prayed. Cops violently dragged them away and arrested them for not having penises.

Excellent. That's about it.

[Rachel Cohen Yeshurun]

Hi, I was one of the women detained yesterday, just wanted to add my two agurot to the comments... To all Women of the Wall supporters who commented here, I want to say thank-you. To all the people who called me names I must disappoint you and tell you that I am sane, hardworking, devoutly adherent to halacha and up until yesterday, scrupulously law abiding! Yes, there is a discriminatory law against women that forbids any religious act in the women's section of the Kotel. And yes, there used to be a law in the US that you had to sit in the back of the bus if your skin was dark. Crazy discriminatory laws should be changed - and if 25 years of advocacy hasn't done the trick, well maybe another few years of civil disobedience will do it. That's what I think anyway. And please keep the comments clean. Thank you

[Jeff]

To all Women of the Wall supporters who commented here, I want to say thank-you.

Posted by: Rachel Cohen Yeshurun | October 18, 2012 at 05:50 AM

Thank you for your courage and perseverance, and on behalf of everyone here who supports you, please allow me to apologize for those here who've excoriated you. Most of them were brought up in frum homes, and have no concept of proper behavior or modes of expression.

[shoshy]

FYI, the Women of the Wall are not Orthodox, they are "multi-denominational", according to their own description. http://womenofthewall.org.il/about/
Anat Hoffman is Reform.

[Maskil]

Rachel,

Great, now that I have you on the phone I want to ask you. (BTW: I completely support the legitimacy of your inherent right to keep halacha on your side of the mechitza, and I think that the Supreme Court is a terrible and illegitimate institution that is more corrupt and political than our government). You have that Arch place thingy (Robinson's Arch?) - why isn't that enough?

Also, a) It's sad when you guys get all the "support" by the anti-Orthodox, and with anguish I read over and over how you guys try to explain that you're not Conservative or Reform. b) Civil Disobedience works when there are seven hundred million of you; it wouldn't have worked during the Holocaust, and with your quantity it seems that you should seek some other venue. You have no support from anyone here in Israel; no one gets you guys (I don't even get the Arch thing, if you just gave me a good reason why it has to be in the women's section I'd switch sides but you guys never explain that, and this is despite my reserved analysis of the spiritual/emotional void each one of you has - I'm sure each of you are different). c) Use the system; file a lot of law suits and set up scenarios where the rulings will present a dichotomy to the judges where either they rule in your favor or they set a precedent that can be used against petty (or national) issues they want to impose. With your numbers that seems the only way, rather than just the piss-off factor. d) Join a political party, it strengthens the power of your say as a citizen, and vote for those who champion civil rights and denounce factionalization and polarizaion among Jews in the name of halacha (for real, even if the media portrays them as fanatic right-wing villians). Rights and equality benefit everyone, and are the exact cause you are looking to achieve.

[rebitzman]

You have that Arch place thingy (Robinson's Arch?) - why isn't that enough?

Yes - Robinson's Arch, and you make a valid point I rather PREFER it down there as I am not accosted during prayer by haredi "fund raisers". the facilities are more modern a well - and the Isaiah stone in the wall above is simply inspiring. It is NOT (in my opinion) a "back of the bus" experience.

That said - it is far more difficult to get to and direct access might make it seem more "equal".

[Jeff]

Posted by: Maskil | October 18, 2012 at 08:22 AM

And you managed to get through all of that without using the c-word. Good for you!

[Sarek]

ENOUGH!!!!

Please let's try to bring this conversation back up to the gutter.

Will someone please tell me what the hell is the problem with women praying at the Wall? or wearing tallit or anything else that men think they own?

Please quote me chapter and verse why it's wrong. And tell me what the consequences are for the person doing it and for society. Why is it bad for me personally?

And I require something more detailed than the goyishe bumper sticker I keep seeing: "God said it. I believe it. That settles it."

-- since I'm sure that any accuser is breaking his or her share of the 613 commandments.

[Jeff]

Will someone please tell me what the hell is the problem with women praying at the Wall? or wearing tallit or anything else that men think they own?

It's very simple. It's okay if you happen to have a penis. It isn't okay if you don't. We know this because Rav Oysgevorfen said so one day during the Middle Ages, and now we have to abide by it because we're all to sinful to be allowed to think for ourselves. And if we don't obey, we'll go to gehinnom where there isn't any cholent, and we'll have to spend eternity deprived of the company of frum people and evangelicals, because they'll be the only ones in heaven. Baruch Hashem.

[shoshy]

The real question is, why does the Jerusalem Police Force hire such good-looking cops? This will only encourage more people to try to get arrested.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

Notice the similarity between the Women Of The Wall and Pussy Riot, Pussy Riot got arrested for playing in a church and offending the Russian Orthodox. Anat Hofman got arrested for praying in the holy place and offending the Jewish Ultra Orthodox.

[Maskil]

Will someone please tell me what the hell is the problem with women praying at the Wall? or wearing tallit or anything else that men think they own?

Sarek,

No one here is claiming that. I did posit that it is halachically forbidden to for women to wear a tallit, but I did not contend that they did not have or should not have the right to make that choice on a personal level. I have since retracted that claim.

Everyone here agrees (and all Orthodox rabbinical experts agree) that there is no problem with them doing that.

There are questions regarding the obedience to the Supreme Court's ruling forbidding them from doing so in the women's section of the Western Wall, which Office of the Chief Rabbi agrees should be abided by, which I believe is an illegitimate body whose ruling can and should be challenged (at the very least it shouldn't be worse than paying a babysitter in cash where the transaction is a) off the books, b) not done by a legally registered employer or to a legally registered service giver, and c) involving a the illegal employment of a minor), and which Bob Guthrie has unresovled sentiments about.

The only people who are bothered are the most ignorant attendees of that place of prayer (who, like most Israelis, cannot handle when anyone does not fit into their world view of a very limited amount of preset paradigms for diversity), and due to the court's desire to find the easiest non-solution that cannot be appealed on any grounds (as is their nature) they've given these women an alternative which they have failed to contend or display in any way that it continues to perpetuate any form of discrimination. Yet, like a moth to a flame, they keep returning to the women's section to seek masochistic satisfaction of being tackled, arrested, and another round of media coverage.

[Rebitzman]

@Maskil

Also missing is the act that my rights as a liberal Jew do not supersede the rights of those more Orthodox. Both sides have been accommodated at the wall - and perhaps it isn't exactly equal, but it is certainly close.

I do think the police in this case over reacted, and I'm not sure that saying the Sh'ma really should have ruffled anyone's feathers - but this woman HAS gone out of her way.........

[Skepticalyid]

The Womenof the Wall may be few in numbers, but their perseverance in the face of injustice is credible.

[Jeff]

The Womenof the Wall may be few in numbers, but their perseverance in the face of injustice is credible.

I agree.

[Gefilte Fish]

Apparently, the chareidim never read the story of Chana (the mother of the prophet Shmuel), who is credited with the innovation of silent prayer. When Eli, the Kohen Gadol (high priest) confronts her in the sanctuary, he is angry with her because he thinks that she is drunk; he does NOT yell at her for being a woman in the men's section.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Sure, but Chana was praying so quietly that her lips moved without sound - quite the opposite of both insane Chareidim and spotlight-seeking WoW members. I hate it when people belt out the Shema` out loud when I'm trying to concentrate on my personal quiet recitation and would be happy to see the police hauling away the old machers in the (Ashkenazi) shul when they start that crap. Ha, that would be funny.

[Maskil]

Posted by: Neo-Conservaguy | October 18, 2012 at 06:50 PM

He didn't even read the article. They weren't thrown out of the men's section, and they themselves would have supported doing so had a group of women infiltrated it. Furthermore, it's a clear teshuva from R' Moshe (the master of mechitzot) that only 'groups' of men are prohibited from congregating with groups of 'women', and that "one women is certainly not a problem" as it's a clear mishnah that women can make a chabura for the korban pesach and one member of the chabura must represent the chabura in the kat that enters beis ha-mikdash.

Foreigners always make this group a symbol for everything that it's not about.

[Gefilte Fish]

Nobody said that they were thrown out of the men's section. What I said was that there is no halacha from the Torah that forbids women from being TOTAL participants in prayers. Do you actually think that if women had continued to be allowed in the main sanctuary, as they were in Chana's time, that there would even be an issue of no tallit, no tefillin, or no aliyot for them?

[Maskil]

In the time of Chana they were still not allowed 'groups of women' with 'groups of men'. Chana showed up when there were no groups of men, or as an individual without a group.

"participants in prayers" - The concept of the minyan was instituted for men, it is not "biblical." If women want to make their own minyan then good for them, but they can't help men complete a minyan.

No halacha from the Torah forbids women from being TOTAL cunts either. Yet, things would be easier if it never happened.

[Jeff]

Yet, things would be easier if it never happened.

Things would be much easier if our ancestors hadn't made up a bunch of racist, misogynistic fairy tales.

[Maskil]

Oh, it's so easy for you: Just blame the dead. I'll have you know that I come from a long line of dead people and I find that extremely offensive.

[Gefilte Fish]

Maskil,

Nor does it prevent you from being a total prick.

[SkepticalYid]

Cunt: from the Latin "Cuna" meaning Vulva. Isn't it interesting how sick , twisted trolls like Maskil turn it into a pejorative.

[Friar Yid]

No halacha from the Torah forbids women from being TOTAL cunts either. Yet, things would be easier if it never happened.

Yes, generally I find that when people refrain from being total cunts (or assholes, if you prefer the term) things tend to be easier.

How about we declare a no asshole day in Israel and see who shows up?

...Anyone?

[Maskil]

Posted by: Gefilte Fish | October 19, 2012 at 04:58 PM

Yeah, well, maybe one day the Supreme Cunt of Israel, Dorit Beinish (or her successor), will pass a fatwa against me as she did against the women of the wall and you'll get your wish.

Posted by: SkepticalYid | October 19, 2012 at 05:01 PM

Yeah, I know exactly what it means, and I'm sick of people flipping out about it. In Britian it's not a big deal, and in Australia it seems it's mandatory use in every sentence. Here "fuck" can be aired in prime time, and "shit" was actually used in the Hebrew dubbing of a children's cartoon (it, like many broadcasted programs, was subtitled in the same language as the audio, so I not only heard it, I read a little cartoon girl say "שיט...").

Also, you guys can't use that word, but I can because I'm half female (one of my parents is a female).

How about we declare a no asshole day in Israel and see who shows up?

...Anyone?

That would be awesome, and even if I wasn't givn time to "prepare" so I could show up, I'd definitely vote for such a proposition!

[Gefilte Fish]

Maskil,

There are support groups for hermaphrodites that can help you.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Maskil
"Rachel,
Great, now that I have you on the phone I want to ask you:"

"You know I called you a Mentally Retarded Broad and a C*nt, don't you?.

Yours sincerely, Maskil (you bitch)."