Lakewood 'Modesty' Game Cards For Young Girls

A Lakewood 'tsnius game' for young girls in all its anachronistic and misogynist glory.

Comments

[netflix]

I need to organize a Slut Walk in Lawewood.

[Mitch]

This has got to be illegal. I hope someone reported it to the proper authorities.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Are Lakewood girls allowed to eat sausages in public? What about bananas?

[maven]

The ice cream one is a new chumra. Now kids can't even eat ice cream except in private? How sick is this?

[Gevezener Chusid]

Where is the misogyny here? It's teaching appropriate behavior and while the "game" may be focused on girls, it is appropriate behavior for boys as well.

What to me is more disturbing is that it seems to be taking the "child" out of "childhood" and deadening the spirit of children. As someone whose spirit was deadened at an early age, I must say this is VERY VERY wrong.

Not a new chumra:
The Talmud teaches that eating in public is inappropriate conduct and that one who does so is comparable to a dog.[1] Furthermore, eating in public is one of the activities which disqualify a person from serving as a witness in ritual matters.[2]While the Talmud seems to imply that any form of eating in public is to be shunned, it appears from other sources, however, that it is only eating *while walking* in public which is truly forbidden.[3] As such, it is permitted to eat in a restaurant or any other circumstance where eating in public is appropriate.[4] One should also avoid drinking a beverage in public whenever possible.[5]
[1] Kiddushin 41b
[2] Rambam, Hilchot Edut 11:4; C.M. 34:18
[3] Rambam, Hilchot Edut 11:4; Yaavetz, Kiddushin 40b
[4] Devarecha Yair 34
[5] Siach Yitzchak 479
(I googled "Halacha eating in public" to get this info)

[Jeff]

1. "I'll be careful to change.. " what is the Hebrew or Yiddish word being used??

2. Shopping cart: Let's see them tell the boys that.

3. "Let's close the window shade before we dance" - What, they're dancing? HARLOTS!

[Jeff]

What to me is more disturbing is that it seems to be taking the "child" out of "childhood" and deadening the spirit of children.

They take the life out of living. It's their specialty.

[soso]

the question of eating in public seems to be cultural. In Japan, I heard, no-one would dream of eating while walking in the street, nothing to do with orthodoxy...

So it might be that in this point, like many others, jewish culture is different than the surrounding culture. That in itself is not wrong... Although, honestly, I would find it difficult to comply... I love icecream in public...

[shoshy]

Gevezener Chusid, is anyone teaching the boys at Lakewood not to walk around with a cup of coffee during chavrusa tumult?

[ah-pee-chorus]

"change b'tznius even when alone in room. Hashem is watching."

what do we learn from this kids?

1. hashem is a horndog and might have evil thoughts if he sees little girls changing.

2. hashem cant see through towels.

are we sure we want to worship this creeper?

[Jeff]

Not too far removed from this, btw, which I've posted here before:

http://blogindm.blogspot.com/2008/01/handel-ehrlekh-wigged-out-photo-blog.html

[ah-pee-chorus]

and if you cant be naked even when alone since youre still in front of this hashem creep, how come you can eat ice cream if there are no other males around? isnt hashem still watching? and how come you can dance as long as the shades are down? cant hashem see through them? do they make hashem-proof shades?

[Jeff]

change b'tznius even when alone in room

Oh, b'tznius. So how do they handle that - wrap themselves in blankets? Or is there a special gown for it?

[Maskil]

Dude! It's צניעות, with a 'tz' or 'ts', not with an 's'. That's how it's written and that's how it's pronounced.

[Garnel Ironheart]

Wait, are the pink cards the bad ones?

[S.]

>Dude! It's צניעות, with a 'tz' or 'ts', not with an 's'. That's how it's written and that's how it's pronounced.

Such a maskil, huh?

"Tz" or "ts" is the Ashkenazic pronunciation of the צ, and it's probably about 600 years old (see Sefer Tishbi entry Kerovatz, where he ascribes the origin of this pronunciation to the French Jews). The other Jewish communities pronounce it as a very hard s.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

the question of eating in public seems to be cultural. In Japan, I heard, no-one would dream of eating while walking in the street,...

A few years ago, I read a story about a man who wanted to open a chain of coffee shops similar to Starbucks in the former Soviet Union.

While considering this proposition, he would stand on the sidewalk in various locations with a cup of coffee to gauge the reactions of passersby at the sight someone holding a cup in public. At the time, it was unusual to see someone walk around outdoors with a cup; he wanted to see if the Russian people in his locale could get used to the idea.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Wait, are the pink cards the bad ones?

It's like 'Red Light' and 'Green Light' — the pink cards are red.

[ew]

I want this game, where can I get it?

[Ken]

And by extrapolation for the grownups:

I'm going to publish a big ad in The Forward about the $400,000 charitable donation I made to the Yeshiva.

OR

I'm going to arrange a complicated series of donations and secret kickbacks via dummy corporations using my cousin's wife's maiden name to get that $400,000 deduction.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

They take the life out of living. It's their specialty.

Posted by: Jeff | October 17, 2012 at 11:57 AM
- - - - -

Just like that other guy, Buzz Killington.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

I want this game, where can I get it?
- - - - -
Highlights Magazine, it's the replacement for Goofus and Gallant.

[Maskil]

The other Jewish communities pronounce it as a very hard s.

Posted by: S. | October 17, 2012 at 01:11 PM

Not so. Not even Yemetines. Just Egyptians. And it's written with the character ṣ if one is being that technical.

[Rebitzman]

@Gevezener Chusid

Agreed.

This is their community standard, and as long as they leave it in their community, there is no skin off my noise.

[Maskil]

"Anachronistic"? Shmarya, if you had a daughter do you think you'd let her eat a banana in public?

[Eli]

"You're laughing quietly, that's special" - I gotta try doing that one day.

[S.]

>Not so. Not even Yemetines. Just Egyptians. And it's written with the character ṣ if one is being that technical.

Yes so, and it's written with the z with a dot under if you want to do the Germanic "tz." The ṣ is for the other edot, including the Teimonim, who certainly do not pronounce the tzade as "tz."

Listen, for example, to this Yemenite recitation of Yigdal, and tell me if the word נִמְצָא is pronounced as you say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwQPpAgCGjE&playnext=1&list=PLA503CBBB66B46E44&feature=results_main

[No_Light]

Wow Maskil, you've met every Jew and analysed their speech patterns and orthography?

I'd have thought all your time was taken up with hating women who leave the house without their owners, But hey, nice to see that your interests are more varied.

What was Rebbe Wankerstein of the Trollover shtetl like? I hear his beard looks like spun gold, and that he smells of blueberry muffins.

Rav APC -

if you cant be naked even when alone since youre still in front of this hashem creep, how come you can eat ice cream if there are no other males around? isnt hashem still watching? and how come you can dance as long as the shades are down? cant hashem see through them? do they make hashem-proof shades?

Help us heilige gadol! Get us the answers! Should we lowly pots of filth, ambulatory uteruses, adopt my brick hamster ball idea, with maybe a lead Hashem-proof shield to stop him gawking at our norks, and spying on our special places?

I await the publication of your "Avoiding Yahweh's Creepstare" responsa. IYH we'll learn how to pervblock Himself.

[seymour]

but no games

can I lie to get welfare

i do not want to work, can i still get section 8

can I make fake bill to get a loan

can i say I was hurt in an accident when i wasn't

my business it slow can i burn down the building

[maven]

Gevezener Chussid: Read the Maharsha on ochel bashuk.

[maven]

soso, that's total nonsense, but I guess all charedi folks know about Japan they've learned from inside of prison. Everyone eats in the streets in Japan, from personal experience.

http://www.frommers.com/slideshow/index.cfm?group=311&p=11

[Moshe]

Can Hareidim do no right? This blog is reminiscent of the Sturmer. You'll be hard pressed to come up with another blog so full of anti-semitism.

[David]

How to take the childhood out of the child.

[Maskil]

Posted by: maven | October 17, 2012 at 03:21 PM

One of the things that is פוסל לעדות. There are three opinions on when occurs: 1. Eating at all, 2. Eating while walking, 3. Being קובע סעודה. Since it is done בפני הבריאות the person has lost his good reputation and cannot be trusted fully (for biblical purpuses). The latter would include anyone eating at a restaurant.

So there's food for thought.

[Ger]

ICE CREAM seriously?????????
CROCS WITH TIGHTS????

Who are these freaks and if this is what they are teaching the girls what are they teaching the boys?

[David]

The kids are not allowed to laugh in public????

Whatever these freaks are they are NOT Jewish.

[shoshy]

Maskil, so are you saying you think this very frum game is trying to instruct very frum little girls not to eat phallic foods in public?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Another oldie; apologies to:

WAYNE FONTANA AND THE MINDBENDERS
"Game Of Love"

The purpose of a man is to snub a woman,
And the purpose of a woman is to serve a man,

Refrain:
So come on bubbe let's schrei oy vey, come on bubbe let's pray
The game of znus, znus, zu zu zu zu zu znus

It started long ago in old Gan Eden
When Adam said to Chava, bubbe, you're not tzneeyusdig
(Refrain).

Come on bubbe 'cause you have no rights
Love your rabbi with all your might
Wear a burqa and stay outta sight, or
Play the game of znus

The purpose of a man is to snub a woman,
And the purpose of a woman is to serve a man,
(Refrain)

[Klezmer Instrumental break]

The purpose of a man is to snub a woman,
And the purpose of a woman is to serve a man,
(Refrain)

Come on bubbe 'cause you have no rights
Love your rabbi with all your might
Wear a burqa and stay outta sight, or
Play the game of znus

The game of znus, (znus), znus, (znus), zu zu zu zu zu znus
($x to fadeout)

[Skepticalyid]

Yochanan, you're incredible. Wow.

[ah-pee-chorus]

No_Light -

i'm afraid i'm unable to pasken such an important issue. i will check with my rebbeim as soon as i can but it may take a while. my main rebbe, the lubavitcher rebbe has come down with something awful and has been ordered by his doctors to remain on ohel-rest indefinitely.
my other rebbe, rav pinto, usually takes my calls right away when i pay by credit card, but must be busy with other stuff or concentrating on making some policemen "go away" if you get my drift.
if all else fails i'll check with the long island medium.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, S.Y.

[Shmarya,should change his name to Julius Streicher]

Shmaryah,you piece of human garbage,had you lived 70yrs ago in Europe there is no doubt in my mind that Hitler would have made you propaganda minister,and you would have done a much better job than Goebels,in addition he would have made you editor in chief of the "Shturmer".
your pathological self hartred and hatred toward judaism is realy sick

[Jeff]

Posted by: Shmarya,should change his name to Julius Streicher | October 17, 2012 at 06:32 PM

You should have killed yourself before you reproduced, you worthless piece of genetic trash.

[S M L]

[Klezmer Instrumental break]

I think it's time for one right about now - this blog is spinning out of control. Time to dial it back, folks. Sounds like some of us are beginning to froth at the mouth...

[Rebitzman]

@YL

Great - I will now have that in my head all night.....

[Rebitzman]

@Jeff

He has that post pre written on a file (probably Notepad) and rolls it out every weeks or so trying to generate a response.

I agree with your sentiment, but mainly because I can't stand a lack of originality or just the basic willingness to think.

[dh]

S M L, I agree. I just want to point out that they're omitting to do all this for an ice cream that isn't circumcised.

[WTF]

I'm mostly observant, but I never heard of the ice cream thing. Can someone explain the problem with ice cream?

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

Maven

but I guess all charedi folks know about Japan they've learned from inside of prison.
-------------------------------------------------
Funny😎 but true

[Ali]

Crocs? I thought they were prohibited for being too comfortable.

[under duress]

WTF, you can't tell from the pic that ice cream is interently phallic?

[No_Light]

Many thanks Rav APC. I'm sure King Moshiach Schneerson is busy healing the world, and I hear the Pintos are planning a big reunion with many other ehrliche chussids, in a special secure venue.

[EileenK]

Forgive me for being an utter dummy, but if one can save ice cream novelties to eat at home, they are clearly still boxed up and in with the other frozen items in the back of the car. Otherwise, the cards make no sense.

The ice cream on a stick that is sold individually will melt if you carry it home in the heat. I guess if you don't want to eat a single ice cream bar in the street and have bought one for immediate consumption, you eat it in the area near the stand (consider it an outdoor restaurant) or at the tables provided by the store or parlor.

I think what the card is asking young girls to do is to not open the box of treats and postpone present pleasure for future gratification. The cards need a new artist.

[Shmarya]

…I think what the card is asking young girls to do is to not open the box of treats and postpone present pleasure for future gratification. The cards need a new artist.

Posted by: EileenK | October 18, 2012 at 08:27 AM

No.

It means what it says.

If a little girl buys a single ice cream cone from a store or an ice cream truck, she's supposed to wait until she gets home to eat it.

[Jeff]

If a little girl buys a single ice cream cone from a store or an ice cream truck, she's supposed to wait until she gets home to eat it.

That's just what our ancestors did in the desert!

Of course, they were operating on a much higher madrega and could prevent the ice cream from melting by the power of the ruach hakodesh.

[bw]

the ones who made this game are stupid dumb and the one sitting around and hating on it are stupid dumb...mostly stupid dumb people reading and caring about this...listen---if you don't like this stuff, realize its all connected, nothing is pure, so either break out and reject the whole pile, good and bad, or enjoy being a part of it by dancing around the pile in circles complaining...bw

[Gevezener Chusid]

From Leon Kass:

Worst of all from this point of view are those more uncivilized forms of eating, like licking an ice cream cone --a catlike activity that has been made acceptable in informal America but that still offends those who know eating in public is offensive.

I fear I may by this remark lose the sympathy of many readers, people who will condescendingly regard as quaint or even priggish the view that eating in the street is for dogs. Modern America's rising tide of informality has already washed out many long-standing traditions -- their reasons long before forgotten -- that served well to regulate the boundary between public and private; and in many quarters complete shamelessness is treated as proof of genuine liberation from the allegedly arbitrary constraints of manners. To cite one small example: yawning with uncovered mouth. Not just the uneducated rustic but children of the cultural elite are now regularly seen yawning openly in public (not so much brazenly or forgetfully as indifferently and "naturally"), unaware that it is an embarrassment to human self-command to be caught in the grip of involuntary bodily movements (like sneezing, belching, and hiccuping and even the involuntary bodily display of embarrassment itself, blushing). But eating on the street -- even when undertaken, say, because one is between appointments and has no other time to eat -- displays in fact precisely such lack of self-control: It beckons enslavement to the belly. Hunger must be sated now; it cannot wait. Though the walking street eater still moves in the direction of his vision, he shows himself as a being led by his appetites. Lacking utensils for cutting and lifting to mouth, he will often be seen using his teeth for tearing off chewable portions, just like any animal. Eating on the run does not even allow the human way of enjoying one's food, for it is more like simple fueling; it is hard to savor or even to know what one is eating when the main point is to hurriedly fill the belly, now running on empty. This doglike feeding, if one must engage in it, ought to be kept from public view, where, even if WE feel no shame, others are compelled to witness our shameful behavior."

Kass, Leon: The Hungry Soul at 148-149. (University of Chicago Press, 1994, 1999)

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Gevezener Chusid | October 18, 2012 at 09:57 AM

Kass was always an ass.

All over the world, in almost every society known to man, people normally and regularly eat on the street and have for time immemorial.

But it used to be that very wealthy people did not do so because the king, queen and royalty did not do so.

Not eating on the street with the common people was a sign of nobility, a borderline between the moneyed aristocracy and everyone else,

Rabbinic Judaism's disdain for eating on the street comes from this, from the behavior of the non-Jewish aristocracy that surrounded them.

In the same way, the new middle classes of the Victorian era disdained eating on the street in order to differentiate themselves from the lower classes and to show the upper classes that we, too, are not unwashed.

For Kass to perpetuate this crap shows his extreme bias, because he surely knew better.

For haredim to perpetuate it shows their extreme ignorance and their misogyny.

[Jeff]

No, Shamrya, you have it all wrong. It's because they respect women that they enact these rules. They only seem archaic to us because we've grown up in this treife medina without the benefit of either frum parents or a mashgiach to teach us right from wrong.

We need to start saying tehillim right away. Oh, my wasted youth...

[Gevezener Chusid]

I still don't get the misogyny part - boys are not supposed to eat on the street either.

[shoshy]

This is really only half a story. What makes this a "Lakewood" game? Who are the manufacturers? How do you play? Why are the cards cut out so sloppily, does someone need Occupational Therapy? We need more facts!

[Shoshi]

Oh, b'tznius. So how do they handle that - wrap themselves in blankets? Or is there a special gown for it?

Posted by: Jeff | October 17, 2012 at 12:42 PM

I promise you, Jeff--they teach kids to undress UNDERNEATH THE COVERS. We even had a religious CD-Rom about a little boy named Shuki, in which you see Shuki go completely under the blankets and emerge fully clothed.

And Bais Yaakov girls can actually change their entire outfits without ever showing any flesh. I kid you not. You put a skirt on under the current skirt, and so forth.

[Shoshi]

I must say that I am pleased they are using a broader understanding of tzniusdik behavior to include any kind of unrefined, wild, or attention-getting stuff, rather than just how much flesh is showing.

I think in the religious world there is a premium put on "refined" behavior, like not talking and laughing loudly or screaming in public, or generally acting uncouth or foolish.

Our daughter went a few times to a tznius group for girls, but we took her out of it after we heard what they were teaching her. That "Jews are the rose and goyim are the thorns," and "The difference between Jewish and non-Jewish girls is that when non-Jewish girls walk down the street they talk loud and laugh, but Jewish girls are modest and refined." In other words, they were teaching the same message as this game, but making it totally an issue of Jews are refined, goyim are uncivilized sluts.

I spoke to the mother of another girl who attended, and she said she agreed with me, but couldn't take her daughter out because the leader was one of her daughter's teachers. Ugh!

[Shoshi]

Posted by: Shmarya | October 18, 2012 at 10:16 AM

Very interesting points, Shmarya. It seems to be just another example of holding on to a societal norm that are at least 100 years outdated.

Obviously we need to have some dignity, but it doesn't need to be the dignity of Victorian England.

[Shoshi]

Crocs? I thought they were prohibited for being too comfortable.

Posted by: Ali | October 18, 2012 at 03:59 AM

Only on Yom Kippur and Tisha B'Av.

[Shoshi]

Highlights Magazine, it's the replacement for Goofus and Gallant.
Posted by: Nigritude Ultramarine | October 17, 2012 at 01:40 PM

Yes, Goofus and Gallant could be lifted for a Jewish magazine and retitled, "Goy and Yehuda". Sheesh.

[Maskil]

Maskil, so are you saying you think this very frum game is trying to instruct very frum little girls not to eat phallic foods in public?

Posted by: shoshy | October 17, 2012 at 04:43 PM

Yes, I believe that's part of it. It's all in some way to keep them from doing things that will lead to horny Puerto Ricans being drawn to them and wooing them sweetly in a way that they will never experience and then defiling them. Even the part about dressing under the covers: prancing around one's own room may lead to lack of sexual repression and later manifest itself in body language or attitude or personality that will lead to Puerto Rican love.

[Disclaimer: I'm not from the East Coast and I have no prejudicial sentiments about Puerto Ricans, not even subconsciously. I grew up thinking they were just whites from a Spanish speaking U.S. island that doesn't have the status of a State in the Union. I didn't even get the whole "hispanic" thing either with Latin Americans. But, intellectually, I've observed that such prejudices exist, and I'm mimmicking what I think is the correct stereotype.]

[Ger]

Oh, b'tznius. So how do they handle that - wrap themselves in blankets? Or is there a special gown for it?

Posted by: Jeff | October 17, 2012 at 12:42 PM

I promise you, Jeff--they teach kids to undress UNDERNEATH THE COVERS. We even had a religious CD-Rom about a little boy named Shuki, in which you see Shuki go completely under the blankets and emerge fully clothed.

And Bais Yaakov girls can actually change their entire outfits without ever showing any flesh. I kid you not. You put a skirt on under the current skirt, and so forth.
Posted by: Shoshi | October 18, 2012 at 01:23 PM

Answer me this......how do they shower?

[dh]

All this refined behavior and they don't learn to say "thank you" or rise when a woman enters the room. Ha! We should live so long.

[Jeff]

I promise you, Jeff--they teach kids to undress UNDERNEATH THE COVERS. We even had a religious CD-Rom about a little boy named Shuki, in which you see Shuki go completely under the blankets and emerge fully clothed...

I believe you. This is a form of child abuse. It simply should not be allowed.

I spoke to the mother of another girl who attended, and she said she agreed with me, but couldn't take her daughter out because the leader was one of her daughter's teachers. Ugh!

Yes, I've seen this sort of thing before. They keep the kid in an abusive situation for reasons of shiddach, or because they're terrified of what the neighbors will think.

Shoshi, if you see the insanity - why do you remain?

[Jeff]

Oh, and even though asking will cause Deremes to label me a "pervert" - I, too, am curious about the bathing arrangements. Does everyone else have to leave the house?

[David]

Oh, and even though asking will cause Deremes to label me a "pervert" - I, too, am curious about the bathing arrangements. Does everyone else have to leave the house?

Posted by: Jeff | October 18, 2012 at 03:08 PM

I don't know about bathing arrangenments for the ladies but thankfully the men are forced to bathe daily in the mikvah whether they like it or not. I once asked whether there were modesty issues around all these men walking around naked together and I was told there was not as, in the context, it was a holy act....

[Jeff]

I don't know about bathing arrangenments for the ladies but thankfully the men are forced to bathe daily in the mikvah whether they like it or not

Yes, but from what I hear about that mikvah water...

[Shoshi]

Shoshi, if you see the insanity - why do you remain?

Posted by: Jeff | October 18, 2012 at 03:07 PM

I don't know if I can actually be considered to have remained, at this point. We do still live in the community--after all, we have a house here. But we have taken our kids out of the day school/yeshiva. I do still go to the local davening establishment on Shabbos--but during kiddush, so my kids can visit with their friends. (I am not going to tell the kids they are not allowed to socialize with kids they have known for years.) I do attend the simchas of good friends in the community (but not every single bris and vort that happens in the community). And to some shul-based yom tov celebrations, to socialize with people I like (many of whom come from OUTSIDE the Orthodox community) and to give the kids some fun. I do go to the occasional shiur; I find that I can always pick up some interesting information, even when the actual message of the lecture is repulsive. But I have stopped going to frum-sponsored classes (since they ultimately horrified and angered me).

So I guess you could say that the extent to which I am still involved with the community is a combination of practicalities and personal attachments (mine and the children's).

None of this is to imply that I have abandoned observances--although I have run from most of what I consider part of the narishkeit. Some of that is stuff that was probably useful and meaningful when instituted, but has become irrelevant, at best, and counter to Torah values, at worst.

[Shoshi]

Posted by: Maskil | October 18, 2012 at 02:05 PM

Good point about sexual repression. While in theory teaching to be modest even while in private could be a matter of a dignity, refinement, and showing respect for the body and sexuality, in practice it seems to translate into shame about the body and sense of repulsion regarding sexual matters.

I think I've told the story here before about my daughter, when she was about 4 or 5, asking me, "Do you know why Morah X covers her hair? Because it's DISGUSTING!" At first I thought she meant that Morah X's hair looked bad, but it transpired that she meant uncovered hair was "disgusting", just like covered parts of the body! I was disturbed to find out she was being taught that the body is covered because it is disgusting (setting aside the question of hair).

[WTF]

Under duress, that's what I suspected. thanks.

[Russian PhD]

“I’l be careful to change in צניעות, I am always in from of ה”. I hope that ה is not pedophile, like many of His pious worshipers from different religions.

[Jeff]

Posted by: Shoshi | October 18, 2012 at 06:24 PM

Were you brought up frum, or are you a BT?

(Awful about what your daughter was begin taught. As I said - child abuse. Ought not to be allowed.)

[Shoshi]

Jeff, we were not brought up frum, but our kids were until we realized what was going on.

[Jeff]

Congrats on seeing through the insanity and having the courage to acknowledge it. I fear my nephew will never get out - and there are thousands just like him.

How were you "mekareved", if you don't mind my asking? Chabad, Aish, Ohr Somayach?

[Shoshi]

Jeff, it was really self-initiated. We have always been interested in religion and have explored a lot of different spiritual paths. After having our first son, we became interested in Judaism because we wanted to connect him to his heritage.

In the books everything sounds beautiful; they don't tell you about the absurdity and foolishness aspects of the implementation. We were very drawn to Torah and religious life, and wanted to be a part of it. We moved into a frum community when our son was two years old and began immediately to live a completely observant life according to how they taught us (which often went well beyond what we had read in the books of that time, before there was as much proliferation of right-wing halachic how-to manuals). We absorbed all the attitudes and opinions, in the fashion typical of newcomers striving to fit in.

Not only have we learned a lot more over time, and matured in our understanding of the whole thing, but Orthodoxy has gotten much more extreme just during the 20 years since we became involved. What was once fringy is now mainstream. They have gone further and further in one direction, while we have gone further and further the other way.

[Jeff]

In the books everything sounds beautiful; they don't tell you about the absurdity and foolishness aspects of the implementation...

Orthodoxy has gotten much more extreme just during the 20 years since we became involved.

That's for damn certain.

Is your oldest in college? Do your kids intend to continue in the lifestyle?

[Shoshi]

Jeff, I think they have a fairly balanced approach. The older ones understand and share a lot of our concerns and criticisms (having experienced so many negative aspects directly). The younger ones we took out of the system before they really got a chance to experience the extent of the problem, so even though they have very close friends who are frum, they occasionally are surprised to learn of some frum concept that seems weird to them, on the face of it (like the idea that a boy would not be allowed to hug his aunt). Right now it appears that they are all intending to continue with the basic observances of things like Shabbos and kashrus. But who knows what the future holds for them. I hope they will be able to find a healthy way to maintain their connection rather than either being sucked into an unbalanced way of life or rejecting their Judaism altogether. Of course, a lot depends on who they end up marrying.

[Jeff]

Of course, a lot depends on who they end up marrying.

Yes, that'll have a big influence.

Shoshi, thanks for sharing.

[Shoshi]

Thanks for asking, Jeff.

[Rafi Hecht]

I definitely get what the card game is doing. Today's generation has made eating ice cream and popsicles look like "something else." And yes, women laughing does emotionally do something to a man's psyche. Let's be honest here.

Then again, perhaps many of the topics on the cards were purely non-issues in a more innocent time...

[age guessing game]

It tell girls that basically their presence is shameful and sexualized,and claims that the male gaze is always there and always watching…