Why Dr. Daniel Berman Belongs In Prison, Not In Medicine

The lone infectious disease shill for haredi rabbis makes the case for metzitzah b'peh – by lying.

Dr. Daniel Berman, who is himself haredi, is an infectious disease specialist – the only infectious disease specialist to back metzitzah b'peh (MBP), the mouth-to-bleeding-genitals sucking done my mohels immediately after removing babies' foreskins.

Here's how Berman explained the risk from MBP to a math-challenged public radio journalist:

Dr. Daniel Berman, the head of infectious diseases at Westchester Square Hospital, said babies can contract herpes from other sources, and the city hasn’t proved that the small number of cases in the ultra-Orthodox community are definitively connected to the metzitzah b’peh.

“The statistical significance is questionable,” Berman said. He noted the city’s finding that there were five ultra-Orthodox herpes cases in 20,000 circumcisions over six years isn’t a much higher rate than the 25 herpes cases the city identified among 350,000 male newborns in the same period. [emphasis added]

Lets do the math.

5 in 20,000 would equal 50 in 200,000 or 75 in 300,000 or 87.5 in 350,000.

But according to Berman, there were only 25 cases in 350,000.

That means that the rate of HSV-1 infection in babies who have MBP (5 in 20,000) is 3.4 times greater than in babies who do not (25 in 350,000).

In medicine and in everyday life, a 3.4 times greater risk for something bad happening is very significant – especially when the risk can be easily eliminated.

Daniel Berman is liar, and his lies endanger babies.

Berman is also a da'at yahid, a lone voice among infectious disease specialists.

As such, under halakha, Jewish law, his claims should be disregarded by haredi rabbis, who are commanded to follow the opinion of the majority of top experts.

Instead, haredi rabbis trumpet Berman's lone claims and disregard the opinions of the majority of infectious disease experts who strongly disagree with Berman.

In doing so, haredi rabbis violate the halakha they claim to be upholding, and endanger the lives of babies, as well.

Comments

[seymour]

In doing so, haredi rabbis violate the halakha they claim to be upholding, and endanger the lives of babies, as well.

this i not news it happens on a daily basis

[God is not amused]

"Mouth to bleeding genital, sucking" exuse me while I go vomit. Only a degenerate human can perform this act. Comes straight out a a porn movie script.

[seymour]

"Mouth to bleeding genital, sucking" exuse me while I go vomit. Only a degenerate human can perform this act. Comes straight out a a porn movie script.

Posted by: God is not amused | September 07, 2012 at 11:15 AM

please do not over do it that was the practice of wound care hundreds of years ago

[Lchaim]

Ur a pots shmaryahu

[Garnel Ironheart]

There's always some lone idiot out there willing to back any position. The Lubavitchers have some guy named Velvel Green they trot out to prove the Rebbe was right about this being a geocentric universe. So now the Chasidim will trot this idiot out.

[westernjew]

I can not see how any medicine can justify any oral genital contact for a human upbringing.

[fg]

satistical significance is defined as reliability, meaning that the sample size studied can be generalized to the whole population. In our case,Dr.Berman is no convinced that these numbers prove conclusively that MBP causes Herpes.

While this person is a respected author and doctor, you condemn him to prison for highlighting legitimate limitations of a study!

It seems that you have an agenda,shmarya, and that you are not here to protect hour kids

[jancsibacsi]

Lchaim-Go back to school and learn how to spell di shoite chusid.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: fg | September 07, 2012 at 12:45 PM

Please.

We know that without MBP, babies are 3.4 times LESS likely to get genital HSV-1.

Does MBP cause that increased rate of infection?

We know that nothing else the babies are subjected to does cause it and we have massive evidence that MBP does.

Only a truly sick person would argue to continue MBP under those circumstances.

[Yaakov]

Garnel:

Ironically, Green was an epidemiologist. Is this a pattern?

[Rose]

... babies can contract herpes from other sources,

Nonsense! The only way children can contract herpes is by sucking a bleeding penis, what a idiot, and he calls himself an expert.

[dh]

Someone oughtta ask the New York Office of Professional Medical Conduct or Westchester Square why Dr. Berman, License Number 155841, doesn't take some continuing education in mathematics and doing no harm.

[Yaakov]

Rose:

That there is more than one vector for infection is irrelevant. The relevant problem is he relies on presumed innumeracy to sell the idea that metzizah b'peh isn't a problem.

The question is, how much does performing the procedure increase the risk to the infant. It can be shown that aside from assertions to the contrary, it is not a religious necessity. Certain charedim have made it into a cultural necessity, but we don't have any obligation, as a society, to accommodate the increased risk to infants on that account.

The very best outcome would be for the Rabbis to concede it isn't a requirement for the mitzvah and abandon it. But they've decided to take a stand in defense of their power, and they are endangering actual religious freedom in the process. But, then, they are not actually in favor of religious freedom, only in the freedom to do what they want. If they had civil power, they would certainly not allow the free practice of religion.

[rebitzman]

Well................at a 99% probability standard, he's technically correct. There is no statistical difference between the two samples.

[Alter Kocker]

Lchaim: Ligsach in drerd, di Haredi nar!

If you don't like the truth, hold it, you're Haredi and live in a world of make-believe anyway

[Shmarya]

Well................at a 99% probability standard, he's technically correct. There is no statistical difference between the two samples.

Posted by: rebitzman | September 07, 2012 at 01:25 PM

Except for the dead and maimed babies, of course.

But we should never let reality get in the way of religion – or in the way of math theory.

[jancsibacsi]

rebitzman --Even one baby is too many so whatever anyone says it should be tottaly stop ed especially when its a hlpless baby that is unable to defent itself to the grownups whim.

[Liran]

rebitzman --Even one baby is too many

I wish people took that attitude when it comes to smoking. Why oh why, is smoking still being allowed to be practiced? Are there not enough studies to show its dangers to them and the people around them? What a double standard we have here!

[rebitzman]

@Shmarya

You attacked his science, not me. It's not "math theory", it's the peer reviewable standards you and everyone else here screams for.

You can't embrace science when it supports with your POV, then reject it with a snarky comment when it does not.

For the record - it doesn't support his either, it is inconclusive.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Let's stop please with the "3.4 times" statistic. The truth is that's just what was reported and comfirmed, so it is the absolute MINIMUM. in reality, the numbers are quite probably much higher due to any unwillingness to report and/or ignorance about the cause of a baby's illness being related to MBP.

[maven]

rebitzman, if one really wants to be statistical about this, the denominator shouldn't be between all male babies (because why limit it only to male children), but between circumcisions done with mbp vs those done without mbp. I suspect comparing those two cohorts, the statistical power would be much higher.

[rebitzman]

because why limit it only to male children

Because this is a procedure performed on male babies.

Numbers are agnostic - they are what they are. In this case what they ARE is that one would have to drop their standards below 80% (which in medicine, simply is not done) to support a null that the two data sets are different. It is entirely possible that they are, but the numbers as given HERE don't support that they are.

That said - neither do they support that they are not, and do certainly lean away from that idea. My guess is, this is (and it should be) studied deeper and outside the constraints of a NYC population.

I in no way support this practice - I think it is barbaric - and in no way hallachic.

[God is not amused]

Seymour/that is my problem it was done for centuries and it is going into the 21st century. And it should not have. God made the child perfect. it is a desecration to the childs dignity and a spit in the face of God to do such vile thing.

Wound care? they wounded the child. WOMEN you have to say NO!!!
The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: rebitzman | September 07, 2012 at 04:49 PM

Sigh.

There are human lives being lost outside of those numbers as numbers, meaning that the numbers represent real deaths, real injuries, real disabilities, real pain.

Medicine, as you put it, does act when they have numbers like this.

It's done in public health all the time.

And only a completely disingenuous person would suggest that public health officials should wait until new reporting laws are passed in other jurisdictions, wait for that new data to be collected, and then evaluate and act on it.

You don't wait years or decades to stop deaths and injuries.

We know that disease is transmitted in a way consistent with transmission through MBP.

We know that the absence of MBP decreases risk of getting genital HSV-1.

We know MBP's supposed health benefits the mishna and gemara based their rulings on DO NOT EXIST.

We know MBP has NO DEMONSTRABLE BENEFIT FOR THE BABY AT ALL.

In public health, that means ban MBP.

It does not mean we spend decades playing with statistics.

To imply otherwise is criminal.

And this calculation does not even take into account the attempts by haredim to corrupt those statistics and the documented refusal of haredim to cooperate with health department investigations.

And, quite frankly, prattling on about 95% and opposed to 99% – the misleading calculation made by Danny Berman's father, BTW, and which Berman appears to be relying on – when the facts are as I have shown them to be demonstrates an inclination for Stockholm Syndrome.

[nachos]

To imply otherwise is criminal.

Posted by: Shmarya | September 07, 2012 at 06:07 PM
These idiots are crimminals. They think nothing of stealing from other people and lying. Why would they listen to G-d and protect their children from harm.

However, they should not worry because they can all buy a chicken to swing around their heads rather than actually repent.

[David]

Well................at a 99% probability standard, he's technically correct. There is no statistical difference between the two samples.

Posted by: rebitzman | September 07, 2012 at 01:25 PM

But it is significant at an 85% confidence level (two proportion Z-test).

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Some public health decisions are based on money and politics at least as much as on health.

Why are cigarettes still legal? The tobacco lobby.

Why are motorcycles still legal? Too many voters like motorcycles, as does the motorcycle industry. Good luck trying to close down Harley Davidson.

Alcohol? We know what happened when we tried Prohibition.

Hasidic Penis Sucking Ritual? Good luck trying to get it curtailed in any way in NYC, the Hasidic Penis Sucking Capital of the World.

[Fleishike Kishke]

To the Frumma 3.4 sounds very small. I would say 340%.

(As seen on VIN) You'd think that people who can find infestations in water, fish and cabbage could also find infection in bleeding wounds and dirty mouths, [Hasidic Mohel mouths that likely haven't gotten their bi-annual cleaning in years.]

[David]

(As seen on VIN) You'd think that people who can find infestations in water, fish and cabbage could also find infection in bleeding wounds and dirty mouths, [Hasidic Mohel mouths that likely haven't gotten their bi-annual cleaning in years.]

Posted by: Fleishike Kishke | September 07, 2012 at 07:44 PM

Indeed (and let's not forget strawberries). They concern themselves with such bizzare minutae and when it comes to the H.P.S.R. (thanks Wool) which is uncivilised, undignified and most of all unhealthy, dangerous and in contravention of normative medical practise it means nothing to them.

[Pearl of Wisdom]

How crazy is this agument? Unless the mother of the child has herpes, how else would the baby get the virus? I wonder what the number of female Hasidic girls with Herpes is? I bet zero. Stop this crazy backward practice! No baby should die or be permanently disabled because of a ritual that started thousands of years ago. When we know better, we should do better.

[David]

No baby should die or be permanently disabled because of a ritual that started thousands of years ago. When we know better, we should do better.

Posted by: Pearl of Wisdom | September 07, 2012 at 08:02 PM

Actually, despite what the frumma may tell you, MBP only started hundreds of years ago. It is a newly invented "innovation" based on medieval medical knowledge, now known to be incorrect and dangerous if implemented.

Just as it was first introduced on the basis of new medical knowledge of medieval times, it should be withdrawn now that we know that current medical knowledge says that it is dangerous.

[Rocky]

Why are cigarettes still legal? The tobacco lobby is only part of the reason. Some adults like to smoke in spite of all the health risks. We tried prohibition with alcohol and it did not work.

Babies can't make an informed decision, unlike adults who wish to smoke. So how does the state protect the babies? Does it threaten to imprison the parents and the mohel? There are no easy answers to this dilemma.

[WoolSilkCotton]

When you are relying on a 1000-year old encyclopedia for all your medical information, the result is the HPSR (Hasidic Penis Sucking Ritual).

Have we coined a new acronym? Great moments on FailedMessiah!

[Babs]

I can't believe we are still having this discussion. Sucking on a baby's pens is disgusting and CPS and the police should be involved. Who cares what some cult like religious group says? It sickens me that politicians cater to these people and compromise the safety and life of babies. I applaud Mayor Bloomberg for moving forward and pray he keeps politics out of this. If any othrt group did this.........we would be having this conversation after their arrest. This bullshit needs to end yesterday !!!!!

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: fg
"Dr.Berman is no convinced that these numbers prove conclusively that MBP causes Herpes."

Conviction is not fact, medical testing and its data gathering and presentation is proof

There are other Doctors that think that official numbers are also flawed or false. Take Dr. Robert Faurisson, and is assertion that the official number of six million Jews killed on Nazi death camps were wrong because its "cause", the number/percentage of gas chambers, could not be taken officially as fact because of his and other Holocaust deniers' "convictions" in the matter.

Hmm. ("The official number of dead infants by orally transmitted herpes are wrong because its "cause", Metzitzah b’peh, cannot be pinpoint as the originating vector based on the CDC certified data, based on the extremist Charedim Rabbi's "convictions" in the matter.") Eerie, isn't it?.

"While this person is a respected author and doctor, you condemn him to prison for highlighting legitimate limitations of a study!."

Yes, Dr.Berman is a respected author and doctor on the pro Metzitzah b’peh camp. And Dr. Robert Faurisson is a respected author and doctor on the pro Holocaust denier movement for highlighting the "legitimate limitations" of a historical fact.

(And before any of you extremist putz just blew your load and started typing furiously that I'm equating mohels performing the MPB to Nazi's gassing Jews, sorry, chumps, my response to fg is that "doctors" denials of cold, hard, official facts and numbers are just biased opinions, specially when it denies the destructive occurrence of Human death. At ease then, chavs)

"It seems that you have an agenda,shmarya, and that you are not here to protect hour kids."

Aaand, right on cue, an extremist Charedi or apologist "attacking the messenger" angle.

Bless their little automata thought processes. =)

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Rose
"...babies can contract herpes from other sources."

"Nonsense! The only way children can contract herpes is by sucking a bleeding penis, what a idiot, and he calls himself an expert."

Aah, actually, Rose?. He is... right.

Birth-acquired type 2 genital herpes (or Neonatal herpes) is a very rare medical occurrence that affects one newborn child (male and female of any race) in every 20,000+ live births.

But contrary to MPB, its transmission can be prevented if detected during normal gynecologist vaginal tests with antiviral medications. Neonatal herpes never affects the infant in uterus, or if delivered by C-section.

So, he is right on Neonatal herpes, but he is still juggling with the MPB mortality rate data. One correct fact does not negate a flawed assertion.

Just FYI.

[Bob Guthrie]

Uh, strange.

Where is Lubavitchers are Christians?. Every time a Metzitzah b’peh related post is put up, he swoops down with the "Illinois state senator Barack Obama vote to allow the doctor to kill a live baby if the baby survived an attempted abortion" bit,...

I can set my watch based on how accurately timed this assertion of his is posted on a MPB thread. =)

Hmm, maybe he is in a Shabbos zone by now. Is 09:00am in Haifa.

[No Light]

I'm still having difficulty wrapping my head around the fact that it's 2012, and there are still germ theory denialists. How is that even possible?

Bob - babies who contract HSV during a vaginal birth usually get it in their eyes. I can't see any way, despite frumbag claims to the contrary, that HSV can somehow be transmitted to the protected penile mucosa during birth.

And ,transmission of HSV via contact with a family member or friend who is shedding the virus in the prodromal stage of a coldsore, would result in a facial outbreak.

For the Muppets arguing that there would be many more cases if MBP transmitted. herpes - how do you know there isn't? Transmission does not always result in a visible outbreak. Often transmission can present with vague or mild symptoms. In a newly cut baby there will be redness and sore patches. Sometimes the initial outbreak could resemble nappy rash or a yeast infection.

The visible cases are the tip of the iceberg. HSV is a very clever virus. If it were easy. to detect and prevent, then prevalence wouldn't be up to 80%.

[baba boooey]

Bahbahboooooey

[Jake Blake]

Your a total moron. He said that the statistical difference is not *MEDICALLY SIGNIFICANT,* not that it's statistically equal. And he happens to be right; the only doctors which would base decisions on such an insignificant margin, are the same doctors who encourage parents not to vaccinate babys.

You ought to be crusading against brain-autisming big-evil-pharma vaccines, since you've obviously joined the "let's base medical regulation on statistically insignificant risks" camp.

You might then even get Jenny McCarthy to sign on as associate editor of FM. Girl is hot; she'd earn you some street cred, even if you are living in your mom's basement.

[Tim Frohlick]

Stimulation of the glans penis causes a release of endorphins in the baby. This could be done by gloved hands just as well.

I am sure that these Rabbis are not doing this to obtain sexual gratification but rather to soothe the infant.

TJ, non-Rabbi

[put a square into a hole]

To TIM FRohlick

With all the ULTRA orthodox pedophiles roaming the streets how do you now that the Rabbies are not interested in PERSONAL gratification???? Go check the Rabbis pants next time he fiishes sucking a babies penis. Yes he will tell you that it is a 2000 year old tradition, but he wont tell you hat he might just get an erection as he is sucking the baby.

[Jeff]

Posted by: Jake Blake | September 08, 2012 at 11:22 PM

Go blow your rebbe.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Jake Blake
"The only doctors which would base decisions on such an insignificant margin, are the same doctors who encourage parents not to vaccinate babys."

Interesting. Do you have a reference URL link to that assertion, plus some statistical data on how many doctors indulge in such endeavor?.

Or is just too insignificant to even post?.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

When even ONE case of meningococcemia occurs, it is considered an epidemic.

http://articles.courant.com/2005-04-10/news/0504100532_1_meningococcal-mikey-sore-throat

If there is a known vector transmitting a deadly contagious disease, it does not matter how many victims there are known. Even ONE is considered too much.

But let's not keep such information from stopping the Hasidic Penis Sucking Ritual.

[my opinion]

So what do they say when the babies die? Crib-death?

[Concerned physician who knew Dr. Berman prior to his flipping out]

I believe an appropriate question for Dr. Berman would be the following:

1. A mohel has been tested seropositive for HSV. Would you allow him to perform MBP on your son, grandson, relative or friend?

If he were to answer no, then we all have our answer as to his true beliefs.
If he were to answer yes, as a physician I will assert that at best he is merely a fool, and at worst, a collaborator to murder.

Damam b'rosho...