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September 11, 2012

Circumcision: A Graphic History Of Metzitzah B'Peh

The History of Metzitzah B’Peh v2The history of metzitzah b'peh, the controversial direct mouth-to-bleeding-penis suction done by many haredi mohels immediately after cutting off the baby's foreskin, is explained in an easy to understand chart.

Please click to enlarge:

The History of Metzitzah B’Peh v2

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None of that matters. The important thing is that it's become a Cause and another litmus test for piety.

I can't wait to have a baby boy so a Rabbi can mutilate my son's genitals but kiss it better with Metzitza.

None of that matters. The important thing is that it's become a Cause and another litmus test for piety.

Posted by: A. Nuran | September 11, 2012 at 02:14 AM

And that is exactly what rank-and-file haredim need to know.

Great chart. It obviously took lots of work. Torah Umesorah should distribute it!

Shmyra so involves In sucking dicks cause that's what he dreams about all day that fat slob!

Thank you for the BHIRPS chart. Very clear thorough and informative. Haredim will still argue that everyone knows you gotta BHIRPS (bloody Haredi Infant Ritual Penis Suck) a newborn.

That's a good chart!

Well done. Nice history of the HPSR.

I only know of one mohel that does this and he does the HPSR so fast that if you blink you will miss it.

Can someone please tell me how long the HPSR normally takes? Is doing it "lightning fast" as I have witnessed normal?

The mohel is supposed to suck off all topical blood as well as suck blood from "distance places," ie blood from inside. All blood that may have come into contact with the air must be removed. This prevents infection. To date, there is NOT ONE certified case of infection of any child by a mohel. Period. Metzitzeh B'peh has been proved for more that two thousand years to be the absolute safest method of circumcision. No medical study anywhere ever proved otherwise.

Posted by: outsider | September 11, 2012 at 07:57 AM

This still does not answer my question. How LONG is the procedure meant to take and/or how LONG does it typically take?

I won't bother to engage in a discussion about the other statements you posted which are neither historically or scientifically correct.

This still does not answer my question. How LONG is the procedure meant to take and/or how LONG does it typically take?…

Posted by: David | September 11, 2012 at 08:06 AM

As I've seen it done, it takes about 1 to 3 seconds.

No medical study anywhere ever proved otherwise.

Actually, "Neonatal Genital Herpes Simplex Virus Type 1 Infection After Jewish Ritual Circumcision: Modern Medicine and Religious Tradition" published in the American Acadamy of pediatrics concluded: Ritual Jewish circumcision that includes metzitzah with direct oral– genital contact carries a serious risk for transmission of HSV from mohels to neonates, which can be complicated by protracted or severe infection. Oral metzitzah after ritual circumcision may be hazardous to the neonate.

Another study in the Journal "Pediatrics" entitled "Ritual circumcision, herpes simplex infection, infection of the newborn, Jewish tradition." reached remarkably similar conclusions.

The mohel is supposed to suck off all topical blood as well as suck blood from "distance places," ie blood from inside. All blood that may have come into contact with the air must be removed. This prevents infection. To date, there is NOT ONE certified case of infection of any child by a mohel. Period. Metzitzeh B'peh has been proved for more that two thousand years to be the absolute safest method of circumcision. No medical study anywhere ever proved otherwise.

Posted by: outsider | September 11, 2012 at 07:57 AM

Please.

Stop lying.

When MBP was stopped in Vienna, the epidemic killing Jewish baby boys soon after their circumcisions stopped.

Past that, there are documented cases now of disease transmission through MBP, and while what passes for you mind might not be able to process this, we know how disease is transmitted and we know that sucking an open wound on a baby is a good way to transmit disease to that baby. This is a fact, not speculation.

Your lies and the lies of your rabbis are maiming and killing children, and as the chart shows, halakha doesn't support you.

These bums should try to pull this off in Germany, and see how they REALLY decide to ban circumcision then....

Amazing how in the year 2012 in the USA this is still being discussed.

Interesting, I think, that none of the usual haredi suspects have tried to refute the halakhic history.

You have to update the chart. Every since Rav Moshe Tendler came out against MBP and Rav Eliashiv, z"l, announced that Daas Torah says you have to do direct MBP, most Yeshivish gedolim have started pushing it as well.

What is the source for that graphic?

Never mind, I see in the fine print that Shmarya made it.

I just feel bad for their babies.....but, it's their own choice....not that it's right..

No YP, it's not "their own choice". A newborn cannot consent to this procedure.

Of course for someone who never learned, FM is a guide to Halachas.And explaining to them anything how we pasken is like explaining to a three year old algebra.

But even so,lets go slowly:

During an outbreak The Chasam Sofer "allowed" doing Metzitzah with a sponge.

Can anyone explain what the outbreak was?

How many babies died? one,two,ten,15,20?

He "allowed" meaning up until then it was
done B'peh?

WHEN did B'peh started? Do we know that in time of the talmud and rishonim it was done otherwise?


Is THIS Teshuva to be found in the Sheila's Teshuvas Chasam Sofer?

Posted by: Deremes | September 11, 2012 at 10:55 AM

What point are you (feebly) trying to make?

Are are you really this ignorant?

After all, you've been commenting on this issue for a long time – surely you, Mr. Satmar, know the history?

Or are you this ignorant?

No point,just asking some questions.

No point,just asking some questions.

Posted by: Deremes | September 11, 2012 at 11:08 AM

Stop lying.

Lying by saying that "No point,just asking some questions"?
Mind reader?
Ok to satisfy you,each question is a point i try to make.
Can ANYONE seriously answer each question as stated without insulting me?

I be back in later in the day to check.

Very well done!

(To add to Garnel Ironheart: the Feinsteins report that Rav Moshe insisted on it as well.)

Very helpful chart; thanks!

It is impossible to understand the history of MbP without first appreciating the rational behind the view stated in the Talmud which requires an understanding of how human anatomy and the causes of illness was understood in antiquity.

The Graphic should start with a statement from the Hippocratic Corpus that predates both the Mishna and the Talmud and which is needed to understand why Rav Papa believed that blood removal was needed.

“..[A]ll wounds draw their inflammation and swelling from the surrounding parts, because of the blood flowing into them. In every recent wound…it is expedient to cause blood to flow from it abundantly, for thus will the wound and the adjacent parts be less attacked with inflammation…when the blood flows they become drier and less in size, as being thus dried up. Indeed what prevents the healing…is the decay of the blood.”

In other words, the ancients believed that plentiful blood in the area around the wound was 'a poison' which if it entered the wound would cause inflammation by decaying. They did not understand that micro-organisms such as bacteria enter the wound directly and cause inflammation by infection. Indeed they did not believe that micro-organisms could since nothing could exist too small for the eye to see (which explains the now discredited theory behind spontaneous generation which was accepted by the Talmud but that is another story).

The idea that blood could be a poison in an area around a wound held sway from about 500 BCE to about 1600AD. This means that not only was it the view of Rav Papa, but also that of the Rambam who expressly stated that the Greeks were the chiefs of the science of medicine and have to be followed in it notwithstanding that their opinions on philosophy were mistaken and sinful. So for the Rambam “One draws out the milah until the blood comes out of the distant places, so that no danger shall prevail.”

For the ancients and the Rambam, sucking 'poisonous' blood out of a wound is no different from sucking out other poisons from a wound. If I am bitten by a snake or a scorpion on my genitals or buttocks whilst walking in the Arizona desert with Mayor Bloomberg, then I am confident that his honor will suck the poison out however distasteful this exercise may be to him!

Of course we know know that blood is not a poison in the manner of snake venom or a scorpion sting and that nothing is achieved by sucking out blood. Indeed you are in danger of introducing harmful micro-organisms into the wound.

The problem is that if you believe that disease is spread by bacteria and that the idea of blood as poison is bad science, then the whole idea of metzizah be at with a sponge or by mouth is meaningless. The view of the Chasam Sofer lacks internal illogical.

If however (as Hareidim state they are obliged to believe) you hold that the scientific views of the Talmud and the Rambam are infallible, then you must (on pain of death according to some opposing Rabbi Slifkin) believe that bacteria do not exist. To refrain for MpB would publicly show that Hassidim act in a manner indicating acceptance of science which as Rabbi Avigdor Miller points out makes you a Nazi.

Hassidim are as obliged to deny germ theory as they are to deny an old earth and they (or their baby boys) will be damned if they act in any way to suggest otherwise.

to rebitzman: The reviews that you cite are presumably accurate. However, not one of those studies identify even one certified case of herpies transmitted by a mohel. Forget about statistics, there are NONE. The studies cited simply recommend against MBP. The mohel rinses his mouth with alcohol or wine and sucks the blood off and out of the open wound. The suction should take 10 seconds, give or take. According to mohelin, the longer the suction and the more blood extracted, the better. Again, please forgive the repitition, MBP has been proven, for more than 2,500 years, to be the SAFEST method of circumcision. Further, circumcision has been statistically proven to be much safer than non-circumcision. This does not exclude or prohibit suction through a tube which is 100% sanctioned by halacha.

Thank you for this.

I hope these will be for sale in the lobby on the way out.

Oh, by the way, during the morbid scare in the beginning of the HIV plague, almost every single last mohel, even the most hassidic, all used plastic gloves and suction tubes, all of which was completely sanctioned and advised by every single leading rabbi.

Outsider: However, not one of those studies identify even one certified case of herpies transmitted by a mohel.

But in fact: During November 2000–December 2011, a total of 11 newborn males had laboratory-confirmed HSV infection in the weeks following out-of-hospital Jewish ritual circumcision, investigators from the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene (DOHMH) learned. Ten of the 11 newborns were hospitalized; two died. In six of the 11 cases, health-care providers confirmed parental reports that the ritual circumcision included an ultra-Orthodox Jewish practice known as metzitzah b'peh, in which the circumciser (mohel, plural: mohelim) places his mouth directly on the newly circumcised penis and sucks blood away from the circumcision wound (direct orogenital suction). In the remaining cases, other evidence suggested that genital infection was introduced by direct orogenital suction (probable direct orogenital suction). Based on cases reported to DOHMH during April 2006–December 2011, the risk for neonatal herpes caused by HSV-1 and untyped HSV following Jewish ritual circumcision with confirmed or probable direct orogenital suction in New York City was estimated at 1 in 4,098 or 3.4 times greater than the risk among male infants considered unlikely to have had direct orogenital suction.

Source: CDC -- Neonatal Herpes Simplex Virus Infection Following Jewish Ritual Circumcisions that Included Direct Orogenital Suction — New York City, 2000–2011

Posted by: outsider | September 11, 2012 at 11:44 AM

Please.

There are documented cases – many many cases – of MBP giving babies syphilis, tuberculosis, Herpes and other infections, and killing dozens and dozens of then.

There are papers in peer reviewed medical journals going back more than 100 years documenting this.

There are sefarim written by rabbis and mohels documenting this.

But you, a shoteh, an ignoramus, a fool – you know better.

Idiot.

These days doctors say NOT to suck the blood out of a snakebite. I'd imagine that same theory operates here.

Shmarya- Deremes is so out of touch with reality that no matter what he keeps rehashing the same insane line since he cannot bring himself to think a little and realize how insane he is with his satmerer shoites,in short his emotion is so much hijacked by the satmerer way of thinking that he cannot let go of it and think critically he doesnt even relaize what he is doing so far of the deep end he is.

Posted by: Garnel Ironheart | September 11, 2012 at 08:49 AM

I made a couple small changes to reflect that. Thanks.

Posted by: Shmilda | September 11, 2012 at 11:19 AM

I find Reuven Feinstein’s (and Rami Cohen’s) very much belated claim made in Rav Moshe’s name to be questionable, especially because of so many other rulings by Rav Moshe that would seem to contradict it.

Posted by: jancsibacsi | September 11, 2012 at 01:03 PM

True.

According what we know now a father allowing a mohel doing Metzisa B’peh would he have a din as a rodef?
Is a mohel a rodef?

Is B'PEH a Lechtchila?
Is a sponge Lechtchila?

Did the talmidie Chasam Sofer do Metzisa B’peh?

This basically proves my comment from before that using the misleading term "penis sucking" is detrimental to the cause of reducing the practice of MBP. Note, when the Chasam Sofer saw that it was a health danger, many followed his pasak. When reform and others attacked the practice directly, the Hasidim circled the wagons and invented a halacha miSinai for it.

I could be quite sure that Abraham did not do MBP on his 38 year old son.

It is a phallacy to think otherwise.

Also, i have seen MBP before i was made aware of the issue, and it is done in about 1 second, and the mohel makes a counter distraction, so that hardly anyone notices it. They also rinse thier mouth with wine before they do it, as a type of antibacterial, i presume. I am unsure if they also rinse afterward.

The Sede Chemed and the Maharam Shik were not Hasidim and the both say that its Misinai.

Posted by: danny | September 11, 2012 at 10:50 AM
Do the baby also have to consent to what kind of parents they want to have? or which neighborhood they want to grow up?
Obviously it's not the same thing as cutting off the forskin, but actually mentioned above things will definitely influence Baby's life waaaaay more than circumcision.

The reviews that you cite are presumably accurate. However, not one of those studies identify even one certified case of herpies transmitted by a mohel.

I assume you mean other than the 8 specific examples they give (with one REAL ugly picture) in the study? Other than those?

Posted by: Deremes | September 11, 2012 at 02:49 PM

Mishnah, Yadayim ch. 4, mishna 3:

בכה רבי אליעזר ואמר סוד ה' ליראיו ובריתו להודיעם צא ואמר להם אל תחושו למנינכם מקובל אני מרבן יוחנן בן זכאי ששמע מרבו ורבו מרבו עד הלכה למשה מסיני שעמון ומואב מעשרין מעשר עני בשביעית

Do you even know what halacha le-moshe mi-sinai means? Amon & Moav are Diaspora and tithing is de-rabanan, so who exactly heard what from whom until Moshe from Sinai? The psak of the Hatam Sofer and others who forbid MBP even today, these too must be moshe mi-sinai so your point is rather moot.

Deremes-Youre insane thinking is also mi-sinai

No, Deremes, they wouldn't be rodefs. They'd be ignorant just like you

This basically proves my comment from before that using the misleading term "penis sucking" is detrimental to the cause of reducing the practice of MBP. Note, when the Chasam Sofer saw that it was a health danger, many followed his pasak. When reform and others attacked the practice directly, the Hasidim circled the wagons and invented a halacha miSinai for it.

Posted by: rebeljew | September 11, 2012 at 02:27 PM

Really?

What accounts for the six years preceding this when I called it "oral-to-genital-suction" and haredim acted exactly as they're acting now?

Satmar and Agudah were lying then and they're lying now.

Has the city of New York outlawed cigarette smoking? Isn't the rate of smoking related deaths and illnesses higher than the alleged claims of Metzitzah B'Peh? Why aren't you clamoring for cigarette smoking to be made illegal? This would save lives of Jews and Gentiles alike. Generally people of lower income smoke. Are you anxious to see them get ill and die?

If the penis sucking is only done because of the medieval belief that it 'cleanses' the wound, and we now know that that is medical nonsense, then why do it at all, either with direct penis sucking, or pipette penis sucking, or with a sponge?

And if the frumma still think that penis sucking cleanses the wound, why don't they do it for every bris, including those done on older boys or on adult men?

And may I add:

HASIDIC PENIS SUCKING RITUAL

Has the city of New York outlawed cigarette smoking? Isn't the rate of smoking related deaths and illnesses higher than the alleged claims of Metzitzah B'Peh? Why aren't you clamoring for cigarette smoking to be made illegal? This would save lives of Jews and Gentiles alike. Generally people of lower income smoke. Are you anxious to see them get ill and die?


Smokers are adults who are legally entitled to make their own decisions. New York - like most cities - has made smoking illegal in public places in order to reduce the incidence of illness and death from second-hand smoke.

Once again, we see the superior reasoning faculties resulting from a yeshiva education.

Jeff--Superior reasoning faculties of yeshiva students zero plus zero= zero that is their ability, they are so hypnotized from their own mbp that was done to them that they became slaves to their rebbe and cant extricate their emotions from him, mbp is a shock treatment to make sure by the rebbe that they will always remain a loyal slaves to them

I agree with "charity begins at home." If any haredi baby would dare to smoke, we should alert authorities and outlaw Jewish babies smoking. I'm sure that Shmarya would agree, especially for haredi babies. Also, let's save 50,000 lives, Jewish and Gentile, every year. Guaranteed. Let's abolish private cars. Outlaw automobiles and 50,000 lives will be saved every year. What could be a greater chesed. Chesed begins at home.

They brand men like a herd of cows. “Neonatal post-traumatic stress disorder” — the recurrent American nightmare for boys. American men are such wimps to let their sons be subjected to this absurd surgery. If it were women tied down & cut, the Feminists would be howling all over the world. The male genitals are a cheap commodity. There is no argument too absurd for the circumcisers. They insult the appearance of the intact penis, claim that circumcision heals everything from body warts to HIV, and draw an illogical distinction between female & male genitals. Circumcision is the mark of a slave, not a free man. It will be up to merciful mothers to spare their sons this humiliation. With a few exceptions, most circumcised men are so defensive they'll never own up to their loss.

~Dick-Scalper

Top Ten Tortures Less Painful Than Circumcision

10. Get waterboarded.
9. Pull out your fingernails.
8. Eat a pile of steaming bear crap.
7. Skin yourself alive.
6. Fall into a vat of molten iron.
5. Get run over by a train.
4. Go through a sausage grinder.
3. Saw off your legs.
2. Poke out your eyes.
1. Go To Hell

thanks

To the idiots saying "Then ban ______":

Smoking, soft drinks and so on aren't surgical procedures. Circumcision is. Gloves, a sterile or at least sanitary field and not sticking your filthy mouth on an infant's bleeding genitals are so basic that normally intelligent people with the tiniest bit of real education assume they will be done. If your filthy customs don't meet the bare minimum for safe medical procedures the State has a compelling interest in stopping you.

oops. Let's see if that closes the tags

And if the frumma still think that penis sucking cleanses the wound, why don't they do it for every bris, including those done on older boys or on adult men?

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar | September 11, 2012 at 07:36 PM

Actually, my understanding is that they do.

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