Is This The Root Of Chabad's Heresy?

"The rabbis of the Talmud, particularly the Babylonian Talmud, were quite aware that older Jewish traditions could give rise to binitarian [one god, two aspects or personalities (or beings) of that god] notions of God and to Divine-human figures with supernal powers: Enoch, Metatron, David, the angels and even some notions of Adam fit this bill. And Christianizing Jews did indeed connect the dots, which is why the Babylonian rabbis responded to them [by condemning them] so forcefully."

The late Lubavitcher Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson

Jay Michelson writes in the Forward:

…[Daniel] Boyarin, in [his new book] “The Jewish Gospels,” argues — backed up by impeccable research and readings of biblical and apocryphal literature — that Jewish texts before Jesus had notions of an incarnated Divine figure in human form (the “Son of Man”), and even a trifurcated or bifurcated Deity. The notion of a suffering and even dying messiah drew from both Isaiah and Daniel, Boyarin says. And by the way, Jesus kept kosher. Ultimately, Boyarin says, “the theology of the Gospels, far from being a radical innovation within Israelite religious tradition, is a highly conservative return to the very most ancient moments within that tradition.”…

[In his new book “The Jewish Jesus," Peter Schäfer demonstrates that] the rabbis of the Talmud, particularly the Babylonian Talmud, were quite aware that older Jewish traditions could give rise to binitarian [one god, two aspects or personalities (or beings) of that god] notions of God and to Divine-human figures with supernal powers: Enoch, Metatron, David, the angels and even some notions of Adam fit this bill. And Christianizing Jews did indeed connect the dots, which is why the Babylonian rabbis responded to them [by condemning them] so forcefully.…

In other words, when Chabadniks argue for a dead and resurrected messiah named Menachem Mendel, or when they treat this dead messiah as a quasi-god (as many do), they are following an ancient strain (or stream, in more modern terms) of native Israelite religion that was rejected by the sages of the Mishna and Talmud who pushed those ideas out of Judaism.

That push out took many decades to accomplish, and the break was not a clean one until a century or more passed. But it was a push out of Judaism nonetheless.

What Michelson doesn't discuss is that a root (or, most likely, the root) of these "binitarian" ideas of man-gods and the like come from the Israelite's pagan past, and tiny whispers of them remained in the more hardcore version of Israelite monotheism because in the very ancient past, it is likely that Israelites worshiped their god (yud-hay-vav-hay, to spell out the name) as part of a pagan pantheon composed of Canaanite deities.

And why that would be is a subject for another post.

Comments

[Jack]

Is This The Root Of Chabad's Heresy?

No.

[RABBI shmully boteach]

read MY book for more info about kosher jesus

[God is not amused]

Yes it is! Let the fur fly! LOL!

[Fleishike Kishke]

Perhaps, but indirectly. Chabad is too ignorant to know anything of earliest Israel. Chabad's heresy likely goes back to Russian 'Ikon' Orthodoxy/Slavic Paganism.

[Garnel Ironheart]

> when Chabadniks argue for a dead and resurrected messiah named Menachem Mendel... they are following an ancient strain (or stream, in more modern terms

Not possible. Mendel is NOT an ancient Jewish name.

[george]

Agreed that the believe that the dead Rebbee could still be the Messiah is wrong, and anti - Jewish. But each year the Rebbee doesn't reappear means that many less Chabadnicks who hold the aberrant belief that he might. And hopefully, the Chabad movement will be even better and more beneficial when that last strain of the Rebbee as the Messiah is finally eliminated completely.

[george]

And the roots of the belief about the Rebbee are clear: he was an intellectual giant, amazingly charistmatic, and probably was a candidate to be the Messiah in his lifetime. Those who met him felt the g-dly glow he possessed. Just because some of his followers overdid it doesn't mean we can't recognize his benefit to Judaism - more than any other Jew in the 20th Century he kept alive and expanded the flame of Judaism.

[Masorti]

The short answer is "no".

The more likely scenario is that both groups, the early followers of Jesus and Lubavitchers, when faced with similar circumstances, responded in similar ways.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Actually, Mendel is a corruption of Mendez, and Schneur is a corruption of Senior. While we're at it, Shprinza is really Esperanza.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Lubavitchers are Christians. Which is fine - there is nothing wrong with Christians. But they are not of the Jewish faith.

[Dave]

Thanks Yochanan, that's very interesting.

[umboshi plum]

s.

call
urgent

[Yaakov]

Just after Schneerson died, I recall hearing about starkly christological prognostications of him "arising in three days". At the time, I had a great deal of respect of Lubavitch in general because of my good friend, who is a fine example of the un-crazy Chabad.

I was quite shocked by it, and asked him. He said, "if the Rebbe died then he can't be moshiach, even if I think he could have been". At the time I thought the stories about the narrishkeit were exaggerations, or false. Now I don't have any trouble believing it. Based on my own experience, I would say that a lot of the ideas adopted by the messianists were inherited from Christianity, even if not consciously.

[ultra haredi lite]

George,
I would posit that Rav Moshe Feinstein or Rav Ahron Kotler of blessed memory had far greater accomplishments on behalf of the Jewish people than did the failed messiah.

[ah-pee-chorus]

he was an intellectual giant,
Posted by: george

what makes you say that?

amazingly charistmatic

probably true but like all leaders he benefited from the assumptions associated with that position. im sure many north koreans would feel Kim Jong-un has great charisma.

Those who met him felt the g-dly glow he possessed

not me. i met him privately 3 times and didnt sense any glow, let alone a "godly" glow. and i was young and frum.

[Garnel Ironheart]

Yochanan, how did such Spanish names find their way to eastern Europe?

[dh]

YL tell us more

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

Perhaps, but indirectly. Chabad is too ignorant to know anything of earliest Israel. Chabad's heresy likely goes back to Russian 'Ikon' Orthodoxy/Slavic Paganism.
Posted by: Fleishike Kishke

Perfectly said!

[Fleishike Kishke]

Examples of the "intellectual giant" at work include Schneerson's work on the age of the universe and geocentric universe. oh, and his belief that the moon is a luminary and his understanding of Heisenberg.

[jancsibacsi]

Yaakov- I would describe all the gullible adherents of the rebbe as they have the gullibility of a goilem,its like mass hypnosis,yaakov i am surpeised that you were so strongly influenced by them how long ago was that were you in youre teens then i owuld understand otherwise not.

[Yaakov]

jancsibasci:

I was never a Lubavitcher, but I learned a great deal of strictly orthodox Judaism, Jewish philosophy, and mentschlikeit from a Lubavitch Rabbi of the old school. He was, and is, a great example of a religious Jew who is a good and decent person.

I had no impulse to join in Chabad chassidut, but with him as an example I felt positively about the group. Turns out he was an unsually good person who happened to be a Lubavitcher of a benign type. He was able to take the teachings of the Rebbe and interpret them as an ethical and humane guide. A good student learns from every teacher. He sifted wheat from chaff, and used his native goodness to make good from it.

[anon]

more than any other Jew in the 20th Century he kept alive and expanded the flame of Judaism.

Chabad propaganda at its finest.

I didn't know Judaism was an imaginary popularity contest with only one rabbi running.

[Rebitzman]

He was, and is, a great example of a religious Jew who is a good and decent person

Most are.

Why they allow their faith to be hijacked is beyond me.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Chevra: As much as we all like to pigeonhole, categories are in fact permeable. Many Spanish Jews fled to traditionally Ashkenazic lands, and some eventually ended up in Eastern Europe. I've met 2 different women who are culturally Ashkenazic, but have family traditions of Sephardic ancestry. For that matter, I met an Iraqi Jew with the surname Leon- very Spanish! And then, there is the Sephardic family name Ashkenazi- what's up with that? Ashkenazim did in fact occasionally migrate to more tolerant, traditionally Sephardic countries such as Italy and Turkey. It just goes to show how idiotic racism and "yichus" worship is.

[danny]

King Casimir of Poland was well regarded by Jews for allowing a significant migration of Jews fleeing Spain and Portugal to settle in his territory.

[Jake]

The best thing about yichus is, that it always ends up in a grave.

['התראה א]

'התראה א

למר ממרור המשכיל הירשל ציג to: Hirshel Tzig
אם תמשכו להלאה להשפיל ולבזות כל קדשי ישראל באופן גסות שאין כמוהו אפילו ברשת-התחתון שבתחתונים! על הבלאג ארורי שלך שיסודו 'בארור מכה ריעהו בסתר' והמטרה להגדיל המשיח שקר שלכם
הנקרא בשם

http://theantitzemach.blogspot.com

אז אעשה גם אנכי כן ואגלה אותו האיש
מדי יום ביום, הכומר 770 שלכם עם כל צביונו והוקע אתכם! בל"נ
אין עונשין אלא א"כ מזהירין! ונראה דברי מי יקום. וזו התראה אלף - כ' אלול תשע"ב

[Korbendallas72]

And the roots of the belief about the Rebbee are clear: he was an intellectual giant,

So was Darwin.

amazingly charistmatic,

So was Hitler.

and probably was a candidate to be the Messiah in his lifetime.

If he wasn't a megalomaniac and didn't perform pagan rituals on the streets of Brooklyn

and Those who met him felt the g-dly glow he possessed.

Like Obama in 2008, for example

Just because some of his followers overdid it doesn't mean we can't recognize his benefit to Judaism

Yes. Yes, it means exactly that. It means we have to erase his fucking name so you racial supremacist, triumphalist turds wake up from the spell you're under.

- more than any other Jew in the 20th Century he kept alive and expanded the flame of Judaism.

By starting a blood-cult and setting his followers as taskmasters over non-cult members.

Posted by: george | September 06, 2012 at 01:34 PM

I was originally going to post something short and snarky like "If you had omitted all the text and left only the title and photo, it would be just as accurate." but then george here had a seizure with his narishkeit.

[Korbendallas72]

Take note that it's the image of the rebbe that triggers this kind of psychosis.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Korbendallas72
"I was originally going to post something short and snarky like "If you had omitted all the text and left only the title and photo, it would be just as accurate." but then george here had a seizure with his narishkeit."

And your smack-down was a joy to read. =)

['התראה א]

Below taken from official lubabvich literature:

נקוט כלל זה בידך הדוגמא היחידה בשבילינו הוא הרבי, ואם תמדוד כל דבר לעומת הרבי וכל תהלוכותיו בקדש, לא תהיה לך שום בעיה, והיה מדגיש את טהרת נקיות לשונו של הרב, ממנו תלמדו
ואל תסתכלו לצדדין

If this is not christian heresy than what is!!!

[ploni]

"backed up by impeccable research and readings of biblical and apocryphal literature"

http://www.tnr.com/print/article/103373/books-and-arts/magazine/jewish-gospels-christ-boyarin

scholars don't seem to think its so impeccable

[rav horowitz]

- The idea and functions of all chabad houses came from the The Christian Science Reading Room, in lots of cities.

- The rebbe was educated in Berlin universities, and by Hildesheimer academy, who was a student of Mendelsohn No rebbe EVER! had such a haskala background,which was considered the ultimate of heresy!

- His inroad to the modern man psych came from his marx & engels style teachings aluminies from Berlin, and certainly not from 'his holiness' therfore no chasidic court had anything to do with them, hence their isolation!

- chabad was successful while their leader was alive, now they want to institutionalize their movement, But does in there who want a 'real chasidic life' sooner or later will have to leave, or will integrate into oblivion!

- They make intelectual fodder from the tanya and his books! intelectualize it to conform of his secular intellectualization therefore no other chasidic books are aloud, because they all contradict 'his' so called manmade philosipies and mombo jumbo filibustering senseless speeches!

The above is the opinion of 'all' other chereidi jews, they will not say it in public, for many reasons, but it's their true opinion on lubabvich of today! It must disintigrate and shun this cyst in order to rise again as a normal kind of chasidus!

git shabous!

[kohan]

There was a famous chasidic rabbi in brooklyn who once said, lubavitch is a religion very similar to Judaism but has nothing in common with it! that slogan became so famous now all chasidim know of it, and they repeat it when asked about lubavitch!

[uncle sam]

wow, i have rarely been exposed to such rampant, overreaching jealousy. i guess its true that success breeds its own enemies.

[uncle sam]

personally i love it whenever any sect of judaism achieves success, persuading jews to be more believing, persuading the non observant to at least listen to the religious, i don't care whether its MO, Bobov, traditional orthodoxy - i love them all; and so should all jews.

[Prof. Hildensheimer]

Lubavitch is a perpetuate Lie! Which feeds on it self? And will self destruct in the end.

A computer was once given a mission to visit Jupiter but it turned its mission instead to murder its crew! The problem was it was given contradictory instructions, in order to carry out its original mission it was forced to lie to the crew, however since it had no experience with lying, it had an irreconcilable conflict! In order to stop lying to the humans, it came up with a logical solution: destroy the humans than it wouldn’t have to lie anymore!!!

That’s the Lubavitch solution to it’s perpetuate Lie, In order to deal with it’s double message a Marx & Engel alumni, student of Mendelshon & Hildensheimer haskalah! turned Rebbe!!! hipocrosy at its best! It has to destroy all other Chasidim/Humans! Hence Hirshel Tzig blog, Bingo! Good luck!

[mendel]

Here are some of the Torah sources for our beliefs. The Christians got their beliefs in question from Judaism.
Ahron Soloveichik
Rabbi Aaron Soloveichik

In 28 June 1996, The Jewish Press published a paid advertisement signed by Rabbi Ahron Soloveichik. follows.

"Before the passing of the Rebbe, I included myself among those who believe that the Rebbe was worthy of being Moshiach. And I strongly believe that had we, particularly the Orthodox community, been united, we would have merited to see the complete Redemption. Insofar as the belief held by many in Lubavitch - based in part on similar statements made by the Rebbe himself concerning his predecessor, the Previous Rebbe, including prominent rabbanim and roshei yeshiva - that the Rebbe can still be Moshiach in light of the Gemara in Sanhedrin, the Zohar, Abarbanel, Kisvei Arizal, S’dei Chemed, and other sources, it cannot be dismissed as a belief that is outside the pale of Orthodoxy. Any cynical attempt at utilizing a legitimate disagreement of interpretation concerning this matter in order to besmirch and to damage the Lubavitch movement that was, and continues to be, at the forefront of those who are battling the missionaries, assimilation, and indifference, can only contribute to the regrettable discord that already plagues the Jewish community, and particularly the Torah community.

[Mendele Mocher Sforim]

mendel: "based in part on similar statements made by the Rebbe himself concerning his predecessor, the Previous Rebbe"

What a misstatement, it should of read: "based in part on similar statements made by the Rebbe himself" alluding to HIMSELF! like his predecessor the SHABATI TZVI!

[Mendele Mocher Sforim]

mendel: "In 28 June 1996, The Jewish Press published a paid advertisement signed by Rabbi Ahron Soloveichik"

If Soloveichik of the MO Hebrew Theological College know as the Skokie Yeshiva!, would of have the power to declare a "Moshiach" from the alter of a 'paid ad' in The Jewish Press! he would of declare himself as the Moshiach! wouldn't he?

[rivki shein]

mendel: "The Jewish Press published a paid advertisement signed by Rabbi Ahron Soloveichik. follows..."

My buba always told me that moshiach will come on the משיח אייזעל express
and three days before he comes:
אליהו הנביא יבוא בקול מבשר ואומר
הנה־זה בא מדלג על־ההרים מקפץ על־הגבעות
לתקוע בשופר גדול לחריתנו
so what changed? do i need to subscibe to The J.P. to know who, what, when and where?!

[mendel]

rivki shein--
The Rambam warns us about speculating about these matters as to how they must unfold.
That Eliyahu must herald his coming is in no way a certainty can be seen from the case of Bar Kochba who was deemed by Rabbi Akiva and all of the chochmai ha dor to be Moshiach without the prior advent of of the prophet.

[rivki shein]

"Rabbi Akiva and all of the chochmai ha dor to be Moshiach without the prior advent of of the prophet"

and it fizzled, just like yours or the next mendele will, didn't it? so I'll stick to waht my bubala told me, and you stick to the messias schooled in the Berliner universities and the likes. Adios

[rivki shein]

btw, Didn't the rambam warn us of the mendele type false messias.. in his book igres teiman!?

[Shmarya]

The Rambam warns us about speculating about these matters as to how they must unfold.
That Eliyahu must herald his coming is in no way a certainty can be seen from the case of Bar Kochba who was deemed by Rabbi Akiva and all of the chochmai ha dor to be Moshiach without the prior advent of of the prophet.

Posted by: mendel | September 09, 2012 at 05:37 PM

The idiot meshichist Chabadnik spews out more completely false garbage.

Rabbi Akiva was da'at yachid, shoteh.

The Chachamim did NOT think Bar Kokhba was moshiach.

It's a rather famous dispute.

Moron.

[mendel]

Shmar--

The idiot meshichist Chabadnik spews out more completely false garbage.

Rabbi Akiva was da'at yachid, shoteh.

The Chachamim did NOT think Bar Kokhba was moshiach.

It's a rather famous dispute.

Moron

Time for a retraction, correction, and apology from you to me and to your readers
http://www.kesser.org/moshiach/rambam.html#SIE

3. One should not entertain the notion that the King Moshiach must work miracles and wonders, bring about new phenomena within the world, resurrect the dead, or perform other similar deeds. This is [definitely] not true.

[A proof can be brought from the fact that] that Rabbi Akiva, one of the greatest Sages of the Mishnah, was one of the supporters of King Ben Koziva, and would describe him as the King Moshiach. He and all the Sages of his generation considered him to be the King Moshiach until he was killed because of [his] sins. Once he was killed, they realized that he was not [the Moshiach]. The Sages did not ask him for any signs or wonders.

[mendel]

rivki shein--
and it fizzled, you stick to the messias schooled in the Berliner universities and the likes. Adios
Would you also reject Moshe as the Moshiach of his generation on similar grounds?
He was schooled by Paro's professors in the palace's, satellite campus of Alexandria University in order to take over after his "grandfather". Basya's father, Paro no less.
See Let my people go by Rabbi Deutch.
(I am paraphrasing here).

[Shmarya]

Posted by: mendel | September 09, 2012 at 08:02 PM

Please.

It is absolutely clear they did not.

But this is the same Rambam who says that if a person doesn't build the temple, etc.,, or he is killed, he isn't the mashiach, and as I recall, you asshole ignoramuses have spent a lot of ink twisting the Rambam's words to mean that because the rebbe wasn't killed, he's still mashiach – a concept the Rambam fought against and which his language does not mean.

In more simple terms for the simple little ignorant man you are, your rebbe is dead, he isn't the messiah, and he never was.

[mendel]

I cited the Rambam Shmar, where is your refutation?
The Rambam is speaking about b'chezkas Moshiach. Building the Temple and gathering in the exiles is vadai Moshiach.
Come on now ,refute it or aplogize. You are wrong about the daas yachid of rabbi Akiva; he was joined by the sages of his generation re Bar Kochba being Moshiach bdoro.
Face it, own up to it, and get over it.

[Shmarya]

osted by: mendel | September 09, 2012 at 09:11 PM

I realize you're an ignoramus, but do try to process – the Rambam's understanding of who did and who did not support Bar Kokhba is unique.

The gemara doesn't really understand it that. No one else does either.

And the halakhic principle, the understanding of which is, I realize, way above your pay grade, is that when other Rishonim or other older halakhic sources do not argue on the Ramabam in areas like this, the Rambam is the halakha. When they do, the Rambam isn't.

Why do you think the gemara calls Bar Kokhba "Bar Kozeba," "Son of Lies"?

Do try to get your fifth rate little cult-addled mind to process.

[simple jew]

B"H

The good news for Chabad is that they are wining.

Chabad of midtown manhatttan closed last on $42 million building.

Last night chabad cali hd telethon host by larry king.

Preschools are booked solid

Hebrew schools are full.

[Shmarya]

The good news for Chabad is that they are wining.…

And so was avodah zara in Eretz Yisrael at the time of Eliyahu HaNavi, to name just one example.

Chabad of midtown manhatttan closed last on $42 million building.

I believe they forced out the tenants, and Metzger uses a large part of the building as his family's personal residence.

Posted by: simple jew | September 09, 2012 at 11:54 PM

You are definitely simple. But you are also amoral and unethical.

[Fleishike Kishke]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The Jewish community of Crown Heights is the real-world end-result of Chabad Lubavitch. The dysfunction, and steady disintegration of that community proves how dangerous the Chabad way is to Judaism and life general. These delusional Lubavitchers and their hangers on, tossing their notes onto Schneerson's grave thinking they will find salvation. If that dead pile of bones can't look after his old neighborhood, how's he going to direct the world?

[uncle sam]

Based on the posts on this thread it is clear we are in no danger of the Messiah appearing in this generation.

[איגוד הרבנים עולמי]

מה לכהן בבית הקברות?! הבלאג הירשל ציג שיסודה נבנה להפיץ ליצנות והשכלה ע"ד המינים בכל עת מצוא על כל קדשי בנ"י, כדי לחזק הרבי המשיח שקר שלהם! מביא דברי החת"ס הק' לשיטתם הנכזבה שנראה לראיה להם כשבאמת נהפוך הוא, היה לו להביא דבריו הק' בענין לשונות נכריות!!! בענין לימוד חכמת חיצוניות! שרבם מופלג בה, ובענין השכלה! שבכל הג' עבירות הנ"ל הם הליבאוויטשער מהראשונים שנפרצה בם ועמדם במרדם, ושהחת"ס היה מהראשונים ללחום בם, וכסילים מתי תשכילו

[Uncle Moishy]

uncle sam, 50%+ of Americans don't pay income taxes! you got your work cut out for you!!! stay out of the Messiah business.

[Yoel B]

Let's accept for the sake of argument that Boyarin is correct, that the returning leadership from Bavel brought with it a lot of innovation that the Amei ha-aretz who had stayed behind didn't like, that Sefer Daniel contains the seeds of a bifurcated or trifurcated Deity and of man becoming God and God becoming man, etc.. That those Jews who became Christians accepted this, that the messiah they were awaiting had some or all of these characteristics and their only question was did this guy from Nazareth fill the bill.

OK, suppose all of that. Doesn't Boyarin's thesis imply a really interesting question: Did Chabad get it straight from the sources, or was it filtered through Christianity along the way? My hunch is the former, but it's just a hunch.

[gavriel shein]

uncle sam : "it is clear we are in no danger of the Messiah appearing in this generation."

You mean the "THE FALSE MESSIAH" appearing in this generation. u-bet!

[mendel]

Shmar--
when other Rishonim or other older halakhic sources do not argue on the Ramabam in areas like this, the Rambam is the halakha. When they do, the Rambam isn't.
They argue with him everywhere else except here in Hilchos Melochim; even the Raaved is silent here whereas everywhere else if the Rambam says "night" he says "day".
Which means he(the Rambam)is the posek hayechidi. We learn like the Rambam.
Your "refutation" makes my point for me. Rabbi Akiva and of his contemporaries agreed that Bar Kochba was Moshiach-- until he was "killed". The diyuk is on "nehrag".
Here is the logic that escapes you:
All who are killed die; not all who die are killed.
Moshiach according to many sources will "die" and then be resurrected-- but not if he was killed-- as was the case with Yushke.
From Arba Mei'os Shekel Kesef(page 68) ...written by Rabbi Chaim Vital, pupil of the Arizal....

"Just as we find that Moshe Rabbeinu [Moses] ascended to Heaven, body and soul, and remained there for 40 days...similary, Moshiach [King Messiah] will, through the help of the Almighty, merit to attain that lofty soul. He will then realize that he is in fact Moshiach [King Messiah] , although no one else wil be aware of this. This is the secret to which the Zohar alludes, 'Moshiach [King Messiah] will be revealed, yet no one will perceive him'.

"Shortly afterwards Moshiach [King Messiah] will be hidden away, body and soul, in that Divine pillar [the spiritual incubation of this sublime soul], as previously explained...

"Moshiach [King Messiah] will thereupon rise up to Heaven just as Moshe [Moses] ascended to the firmament, and will subsequently [return and] be revealed completely for all to see. The entire Jewish people will then perceive him and flock towards him."

[See also Sha'ar Hagilgulim chapter 13]

---------------------------------------
Can the
Moshiach [King Messiah] come from the dead?

The answer is surprisingly enough, a resounding yes!
In the second to the last Rashi (the foremost explainer of the scripture and the Talmud, printed in every text) in the book of Daniel, (12:12) he writes: "The Moshiach [King Messiah] will reveal himself and then be concealed.... and then revealed once more, and so it says in the Midrash on Ruth and in the poems of Rabbi Eliezer HaKalir."
So it states in the Talmud (Sanhedrin 98b), "If the Moshiach [King Messiah] comes from the dead he will be someone like Daniel." Rashi there explains this to mean exactly what it says; Moshiach [King Messiah] can come from the dead.

The great and holy scholar, Rabbi Chiam Midini, in his work Sdei Chemed (Peyas HaSadeh, Maareches "Alef", os Eyin), elaborates on this, and connects this Talmudic statement to an earlier one (ibid 98a) referring to the prophecy of Daniel: "If the generation is fortunate the Moshiach [King Messiah] will come from the dead, i.e. on "clouds of heaven," and then everyone will accept him with no reservations. But if not he will come from the living, i.e. riding on a donkey (lit. "chamor", which also means "physical" in Hebrew)".
And so agrees the Holy Chacham Yosef Chiam (The Ben Ish Chai) in his commentary on Sanhedren 98 in his book "Ben Yhoyada", that Moshiach [King Messiah] can come from the dead. (he also explains the topic there of Moshiach ben Yosef and how he can also be Moshiach)
The Zohar in Parshat Balak (pg. 203b) states that the Moshiach [King Messiah] will have to "die"' i.e. go to a higher spiritual level, and return again with the new level he has attained.

In the 13th. chapter of Shaar Hagilgulim (near the end) it states that after the Moshiach [King Messiah] arrives, he will be hidden in heaven like Moshe [Moses] was hidden on Mount Sinai, and then he will appear again.

Finally the Abarbanel states in his book "Yeshuot Moshicho" (Part 2, topic 2, chapter 1) that "the Moshiach [King Messiah] will have to die in order to purify the generation...and he will wait in a spiritual state in 'heaven' until it he rises from the dead, as it says in the Talmud Sanhedrin (98b).

All the above were sources from several hundred years ago supporting the idea that Moshiach CAN come from the dead.

Sources List:-

1) Sanhedrin 98b (see Rashi on this)
2) S'dei Chemed vo;.7, page 2984
3) Derech Eretz Zuta (end of chapter 11)
4) Yeshuos Meshicho (page 104)
5) Midrash Eichah Rabbah (1:51)
6) Yefeh Anaf (commentary on Midrash Eichah Rabbah, ibid)
7) Arba Mei'os Shekel Kesef (p.68 by Rabbi Chaim Vital , pupil of the Arizal)
8) Meori Tzion (chapter 97)
9) Zohar (Balak, 203b)
10) Maamarim of the Alter Rebbe (5568 page 283)
11) Second to last Rashi on Daniel 12:12
12) The Ben Ish Chai in his commentary on Sanhedren 98 in his book "Ben Yhoyada"
13) The Lubavitcher Rebbe's numerous references to the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe specifically "V'hu Yigaleinu" stated after the passing of the previous Rebbe found in Basi L'gani

At least I have a "pay grade"; what is yours?

[gavriel shein]

mendel: "blah blah blah----------"

Typical lubavitcher filibusterig chatter,
ע"ז אמרו חז"ל: דע מה שתשוב לאפיקורוס, וא״ר יוחנן עלה לא שנו אלא אפיקורוס גוי, אבל אפיקורוס ישראל כ״ש דפקר טפי
keep it simple stupid:
רמב"ם: אני מאמין באמונה שלימה בביאת המשיח ואף על פי שיתמהמה עם כל זה אחכה לו בכל יום
שיבוא
will know him when we see him! and he certainly is not a berlin university Mendelshon-Hildensheimer alumni trained in marx&engel style manipulations, comm'on!

[mendel]

will know him when we see him! and he certainly is not a berlin university Mendelshon-Hildensheimer alumni trained in marx&engel style manipulations, comm'on!
Would you also reject Moshe as the Moshiach of his generation on similar grounds?
He was schooled by Paro's professors in the palace's, satellite campus of Alexandria University in order to take over after his "grandfather". Basya's father, Paro no less.
See Let my people go by Rabbi Deutch.
(I am paraphrasing here).
Did the Jewish people "know" Moshe when they "saw" him?
Eighty percent rejected him and died in macos choshech.
Moreover, at the time of Korach, rov clal Yisroel rejected him
The Orech Chaiyim ha Kodesh says"Moshe" Ma she haya hoo she yiyhe.
So the parallels re the two Moshiachs are inevitable.
You must have missed my response to Rivki Shein, so here it is again, just for you.

[mendel]

More about these parallels

The Midrash states: Just as Moshe, who was destined to break the power of Pharaoh, was brought up in Pharaoh's palace, so the Messiah, who is destined to settle accounts with Edom, will live with them in their city. The ultimate failure of the empire of Edom will give rise to a new and different kingdom- the Kingdom of the Messiah...
Moshe Rabbenu only became the greatest of all prophets because he was brought up in the palace of Pharaoh. His revolution against the evil he saw in the palace propelled him to heights that no other human being ever achieved. Similarly, the Messiah grows to full stature only because he "dwells at the gates of Rome"{even in their "universities]. He must be challenged by the value system of the West, rebel against it and overcome it. It is thus fair to say that the "Messianic Kingdom" must begin its career as part of Western civilization, but can reach its full potential only by rejecting those aspects of that civilization which are destructive to Torah life. This husk must fall off for the Messianic ideal to be revealed in all its purity.
http://dvar.org.il/what-is-the-messianic-process-?tmpl=component&print=1&page=
So let us all be grateful that the Rebbe "studied" in French and German universities--it was all for the sake of the "messianic process"--get it?

[gavriel shein]

mendel shigetz said: " דברים האסירים לשמעם"

די ביסט א מין ואפיקורס אנ גישטאפט מיט השכלה המפעפע ויוצא פין וואס דיין רבי האט גיפרעדיגט איו דיר די רעדסט דברים האסירים לשמעם! ליבאוויטש פון היינט האט קיין תקנה! שבירת'ן זו הוא טהרתן! וויא לאנג איינער וואס האט ציגיהערט זיינע כפירה רייד וועט זיי חי וועט די צרעת ממארת וואס ריפט זיך ליבאוויטש פון היינט נישט האבן קיין תקנה! והנשארים הרה נסו! אין וועל'ן זיך מדבק זיין צו אנדערע קהלות בישראל ויה"ר שתהיה במהרה

רבותי זייט מקיים דעם מאמר חז"ל דע מה שתשוב לאפיקורוס, וא״ר יוחנן עלה לא שנו אלא אפיקורוס גוי, אבל אפיקורוס ישראל כ״ש דפקר טפי

[Shmarya]

Posted by: mendel | September 10, 2012 at 09:31 AM

Idiot.

Your understanding of the Ramabam not only flies in the face of the language he used, it flies in the face of the way the Rambam was understood by other Rishonim and by Achronim and by Jews for almost 900 years.

You're a sick person.

You are in a sick cult.

And vomit your stupidity and your sickness on everyone around you.

The rebbe is dead.

The rebbe was never the messiah.

The rebbe is not the messiah now.

[prof. Sharansky II]

simple jew said: "The good news for Chabad is that they are wining, Chabad of midtown manhatttan closed last on $42 million building."
---------------------

The success of Lubavitch !ילכו מחיל אל חיל

They closed just now in the ‘wilderness’ of times square on a building for $42 million dollars! Maybe some lost soul will pass by after seeing Madame Tussauds! To put on his Phylacteries or shake-a-lulov! or bake-achalla! for his shiksa.

Meanwhile the chabad house in Palm Beach files for bankruptcy 19m! And so is in bankruptcy their large Yeshiva Tomchei Tmimim school building (for real torah kids) in North Miami Beach now that's ילכו מחיל אל חיל at its best!

Lubavitch like communist Russia, is a bureaucracy, a bureaucracy tends to expand! מחיל אל חיל to the point that it destroys the base that made it possible in the first place, the Russians gave their bureaucracy ‘one mandate’ to catch up to the west in the arms race! The bureaucracy faithfully carried it out even it meant bleeding the economy until the system collapsed!. Similar Lubavitch-of-today has a bureaucracy mentality called “ילכו מחיל אל חיל” by obtaining ‘materialistic’ foot holds worldwide even it destroys the essence of its base… which by natures force will Implode sooner-or-later! and on the expense of it’s base.

[Fleishike Kishke]

"Just as we find that Moshe Rabbeinu [Moses] ascended to Heaven, body and soul, and remained there for 40 days...similary, Moshiach [King Messiah] will, through the help of the Almighty, merit to attain that lofty soul."
Mendel, dear, thanks for continuing to spread the true Chabad-Lubavitch teachings, and not lying so as to possibly interfere with the fundraising.
But regarding your quote above, since our Divine Rebbe King Moshiach Portion of God Above Who Commands and God Fulfills went to heaven body and soul, what do you imagine they stuck in the grave out in Queens?

[mendel]

gavriel shein--
Aren't you beiing too glib and a litle hasty in throwing around the term "apikorus"?
Here is what Rabbi Yoseph Albo says about you and your ilk:

http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/ikarim/a1-2.htm#2

[ההבדל בין כופר לטועה]
ומה שראוי שנאמר: בזה ללמד זכות על חכמי ישראל המדברים בזה וכיוצא בו, הוא כי כל איש ישראל חייב להאמין שכל מה שבא בתורה הוא אמת גמור, ומי שכופר בשום דבר ממה שנמצא בתורה, עם היותו יודע שזהו דעת התורה, נקרא כופר. כמו שאמרו רז"ל בפרק חלק, שכל האומר כל התורה כולה מפי הגבורה, חוץ מפסוק אחד שאמרו משה מעצמו, עליו נאמר כי דבר ה' בזה, והוא בכלל האומר אין תורה מן השמים.

אבל מי שהוא מחזיק בתורת משה ויאמין בעיקריה, וכשבא לחקור על זה מצד השכל והבנת הפסוקים הטהו העיון לומר שאחד מן העיקרים הוא על דרך אחרת, ולא כפי המובן בתחילת הדעת; או הטהו העיון להכחיש העיקר ההוא להיותו חושב שאיננו דעת בריא תכריח התורה להאמינו, או יחשוב במה שהוא עיקר שאיננו עיקר, ויאמין אותו כשאר האמונות שבאו בתורה שאינם עיקרים; או יאמין אי זו אמונה בנס מניסי התורה להיותו חושב שאיננו מכחיש בזה שום אמונה מן האמונות שיחויב להאמין מצד התורה - אין זה כופר, אבל הוא בכלל חכמי ישראל וחסידיהם, אעפ"י שהוא טועה בעיונו, והוא חוטא בשוגג וצריך כפרה.
It is almost erev Rosh ha Shana have rachmonos on yourself if not on us Lubavitchers.

[prof. Sharansky II]

mendel: "ההבדל בין כופר לטועה"

write up this typical lubab mombo jumbo un-pertaining to the topic! and stick it up your kings a-- or into his thumb stones! he may need it to expalin himself by yom hadin!

btw:
הרב בש"ע הלכות ת"ת פ"ג ס"ד, כתוב: שיש ללמוד ספרי מוסר שנבנו על מדרשי חז"ל, ולא בספרי מוסר שמיוסד ע"ד השכל! ע"כ
why because a logic going thru the grinder of השכל שמלא חכמות חיצוניות like yours and your rebbes of course is oximoronic at best!

[mendel]

Fleish--
what do you imagine they stuck in the grave out in Queens?
See this video where the Rebbe describes the present state of being of the Rebbe ha kodem:
His holy body is interred in the grave with his nefesh ruach and nesham still attached to him.."[he is alive].[Find this at almost the half way point]
Getting advice when you can't ask the Rebbe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqFgQ9Dg_BE

Now , if you won't have rachmonos on yourself now that it is alm ost Rosh ha Shana, it least have it on us Lubavitchers. View it and get back to me.

[Shmarya]

Your rebbe was viewed as mentally ill by Litvisher rabbis as far back as the 1950s, and was detested by almost every major rabbi of the previous generation.

The mr. mental illness thought a dead person was alive – especially when that insanity benefited him personally – is not exactly proof of anything.

[mendel]

Shmar--
Doesn't that tell you something about them?
I have heard of "cold hearted" litvaks, but detesters?

[Mendele Mocher Sforim]

mendel writes: "[he is alive]"

He is alive almost like you're alive!
!מענדל, מענדל גזירה שוה

[Mendele Mocher Sforim]

mendel: " i have heard of "cold hearted" litvaks, but detesters?"

Are you implying that you're a cusid? really? to waht rebbe did your father and grand father go-to? where they also going to secular schools? hang on the internet watching youtube etc. moron!

[mendel]

Mendele Mocher Sforim
You are so right!
"as long as his seed is alive he(Yaakov Avinu and al derech the Rebbe by his chasidim)is alive.
Hu Bachayim mamosh, lemato me'asara tfochim
http://770live.com/En770/770video.asp?id=3&vid=3&spd=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDRrwPMGj4c

[Mendele Mocher Sforim]

mendel -------

יעקב אבינו לא מת מה זרעו בחיים אף הוא בחיים
True, but he ain't no יעקב אבינו and sometimes I'm not sure that !זרעו הם חיים

[mendel]

Mendele Mocher Sforim--
True, but he ain't no יעקב אבינ
As was the case for Rabeinu ha Kodosh alz Nasi
so it is by all Nesiim b' Yisrael. He never died, and the Rebbe never died.
It says in sefer chasidim that the reason Rebbe could do it(come back and make kiddush, for his family after he so called "died" and pater them was because
Nasi is nitzuso shel Yaakov Avinu. He was ' a spark of Yakov Avinu.
Look it up.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: mendel | September 10, 2012 at 02:13 PM

The really fun thing about Chabad messianists is that they ignore the vast majority of rabbinic opinion from the past 1800 years while latching on to aggadita that was never used halakhicly or understood to be literal.

Did Yehudah HaNasi's children have to say kaddish for him? Did they have to sit shiva? Did they inherit his money and possessions?

The answer to all those questions is yes, and the reason is that according to halakha, Yehudah HaNasi died.

[Mendele Mocher Sforim]

mendel: "He was a spark of Yakov Avinu"

Your bombastic declarations who your rebbe was or wasn't, not withstanding! but "all klal yisruel" agree that

הנביאים, תנאים, אמוראים, ראשונים, בעלי קבלה, אחרונים, תלמידי בעש"ט, הגר"א ותלמידיו וכו' כולם היה קדושים וטהורים באמת

no one claims they where moshiach, or that they come home every friday nite making kidush! what makes your psycotic rebbe any different!? according to your faulted and maniac logic?! get-a-life!

shmarya said:
Did Yehudah HaNasi's children have to say kaddish for him? Did they have to sit shiva? Did they inherit his money and possessions?

The answer to all those questions is yes, and the reason is that according to halakha, Yehudah HaNasi died.

shmarya sheigetz, i never thought I'll agree with you on anything!

[Mendele Mocher Sforim]

mendel: "so it is by all Nesiim b' Yisrael He never died, and the Rebbe never died."

99% יראים שומרי תורה ומצות חסידים כמו מתנגדים your rebbe weren't their נשיא to say the least! they barley forgave him his !חטאת נעירים! וד"ל

[mendel]

Shmarya--
You are so right, hence the pela of his coming back and making kiddish--and yet his talmidim in their day(kesubos 104) declared "anyone who says Rebbe died...stab him with a sword..." Notice the comparison to our day?
The Rebbe said about how to conduct ourselves that we follow the shulchan aruch vis a vis doing kria etc, for the Rebbe ha kodem who according to our fleshly eyes "died"...
Monday, January 02, 2012
Yaakov Avinu (and the Rebbe) didn't die

…the situation [after the passing of the Previous Rebbe] is not what it appears to eyes of flesh (physical, and much more so material), that there has occurred, G-d forbid, an interruption [in the life of the Previous Rebbe], etc. – rather, here and now he “stands and serves”.

Immediately a question is raised: now, an incident occurred a certain number of years ago, and we ourselves were there and we did certain things, in accordance with Shulchan Aruch, which are connected with an interruption [of life]!

Now, as has been said several times, everything has its source in the Torah – not only the inner dimension of Torah, but also the revealed dimension of Torah.

This is what the gemara states (Taanis 5b): “Yaakov Avinu didn’t die.” Immediately the gemara questions this: “but they eulogized him, embalmed him, and buried him?”

Nonetheless, even after this question the gemara does not recant and explain it in a different way, rather the gemara remains with this statement that “Yaakov Avinu didn’t die”, despite that they “they eulogized him, embalmed him, and buried him”, and despite that these activities were really performed, because after all they are told to us in the Torah!

So the gemara explains: “just as his progeny are alive, so too he is alive”. As long as “his progeny are alive”, then even if “they eulogized him, embalmed him, and buried him” – something that really happened and in accordance with Shulchan Aruch – with all this “so too he is alive”.

And this is not to be understood according to the explanations of those who want to “cool off” the subject, who want to explain that through the fact that his progeny are alive then it is as if he himself is also alive.

Firstly, according to an explanation like this it would come out that the gemara recanted what it said that “Yaakov Avinu didn’t die”, for it is only as if he didn’t die – that by his progeny being alive he derives benefit from this exactly as if he was alive.

Secondly, this is the opposite of the language of the gemara: the gemara doesn’t say that through this that his progeny are alive it is as if he is alive, rather the gemara equates the two things – “just as his progeny are live” – in exactly the same way – “so too he is alive”. And this is brought by the gemara as an answer to the question “but they eulogized him, embalmed him, and buried him”.
[…]

The physical aspect [of a true and complete tzaddik]…is nothing more than a secondary thing and merely an external garment.

From this it is understood, that when this secondary thing is removed from him and the main thing remains, this cannot be called by the name “death”, since this is only relevant to say about one whose life was connected with the physical thing in the body and the physicality of the world. But by the tzaddik, even though when he was a neshoma in a body the body was something that had to be taken into account, except that for him the body was not the main thing, rather the spirituality in it; only the external garment was a physical garment. Therefore, when he removed one garment and donned another garment, there is nothing lacking and consequently “Yaakov Avinu didn’t die”.

And when there is a question: but “they eulogized him, embalmed him, and buried him”? – the response is: all of these activities were done on the physical aspect of his body. By any other person, even a Jew, when he’s down in this world, this is the main aspect of his life…which is not the case by him [this complete tzaddik], that even his life in this world was a spiritual life.

[…]the gemara knows that “they eulogized him”, this is a verse in the Torah, and connected with halacha, etc., but this is no contradiction, because all of this was done with his physical garment, and this garment was exchanged, in order that he could now have a different garment.

Sicha of the Rebbe on the Hillula of the Previous Rebbe, Yud Shevat 5726 (1966)
http://dawnofredemption.blogspot.com/2008/06/yaakov-avinu-and-rebbe-didnt-die.html

[Mendele Mocher Sforim]

mendel: the gemorah says the gemorah knows and so on---------

בגמרא: חרש שוטה וקטן פגיעתן רעה
ובמס' חגיגה ב': חרש שוטה וקטן פטורים מכל המצוות האמורות בתורה, וכתב שם רש"י דלאו בני דעה נינהו ופטורים ממצוות

mendele and what if one is all 3 togheter a
חרש שוטה וקטן Inc. is he a ?בני דעה can I now stop reading his comments and answer him ?! have-a-nice-life!

[Hirshel Tzig III]

Hirshel Tzig - הירשל ציג said...
"right, Malach, Lubavitch has no shalsheles, it goes from the Tzemach Tzedek to Avrohom Ber to Yankel Schorr to Meir Weberman..... and then maybe to Nechemia too...."

http://theantitzemach.blogspot.com/2012/09/blog-post_10.html
----------------------------

A tzig a menuval..! Lubavich-of-today Started with a rebbe-a-menuval at his lowest and ended as a !משיח שקר, dressed like a goy not even a yarmulka entering the Berliner univesities, meeting shiksas and befriending and touching them, like Jacqueline O. went to his own wedding togheter with his bride.. the chatzifah mushka the pushka! who wore pants even as rebetzin in crown heights! a rebbe who shook hands even in his old age with all sorts of woman nidas! AND YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE MALACH's dynasty or succession!? !צא טמא

[Fleishike Kishke]

Mendel,
A heartfelt thanks for letting me know that they buried Melech HaMoshiach while he was still alive, and that he continues to live with all his faculties down in the grave ... I had not known that. Is this a mainstream belief? What percentage of Anash (in their heart of hearts) believe this?

[Fleishike Kishke]

And by heart of hearts I mean how many admit this belief publicly, and how many believe this but keep it quiet. I don't hassvisholem mean how many say they believe, but really don't. We know there are no such cases hassvisholem.

[Steve]

Only ethnic tribalism keeps Jews believing Chabad is Jewish. This is an entirely new religion. Just as early Christians tried to co-opt the Torah, the followers of this new religion try and co-opt additiinal Jewish sources. Naturally they say they are the true Israel. Fascinating.

[Rachel]

Melchizedek - Who was he?