Hundreds Of Haredi Rabbis Order Jews To Violate Proposed Circumcision Law

"We are decreeing that according to our opinion, it is forbidden according to the Torah to participate in the evil plans of the NYC Health Dept. [requiring that parents sign an informed consent document before allowing metzitzah b'peh, the direct mouth-to-penis sucking of the bleeding circumcision wound by mohels] in any form that it may be whether it be the Moihilim, or the parents – with agreements or signatures."

Rabbi David Niederman

Rabbi David Niederman, who is the executive director of the United Jewish Organization of Williamsburg, a primarily Satmar hasidic organization, told the New York Post that Jews will not comply with the law that mandates parents sign an informed consent before allowing metzitzah b'peh to be done on their sons:

“For the government to force a rabbi who’s practicing a religious act to tell his congregants it’s dangerous is totally unacceptable,” Niederman told The Post.

“You’re forcing the mohel and the parent to sign a piece of paper that contradicts their religious convictions.”

Niederman also told the Post that there’s no substantive evidence linking herpes and metzitzah b'peh.

That is demonstrably false as one can clearly see from the US Centers for Disease Control report, which shows that babies who have metzitzah b'peh are 3.4 times more likely to be diagnosed with genital herpes in the first month or two of their lives than babies who don't.

Babies who have herpes often require long hospitalizations. Some are left maimed or brain damaged from the infection. Others die.

In New York City alone, at least 11 babies contracted the herpes simplex virus from metzitzah b'peh since 2000. Two of them developed brain damage. Two others died.

Michael Tobman, who the Post describes as "a political consultant working with several large Hasidic communities," told the Post that the waiver is not a minor issue because it would have a "chilling effect":

“It warns parents that the city suggests a link between the practice and serious health worries, [and] it would undoubtedly have a chilling impact,” he said.

“City government shouldn’t be doing that.”

Last week, 200 haredi rabbis, most hasidic, issued a proclamation that accused New York City's Department of Health and Hygine of lying about the risks of metzitzah b'peh. The rabbis also ordered Jews to refuse to sign any informed consent document, even if required by law:

We are decreeing that according to our opinion, it is forbidden according to the Torah to participate in the evil plans of the NYC Health Dept. in any form that it may be whether it be the Moihilim, or the parents – with agreements or signatures.

New York State Assemblyman Dov Hikind and Simcha Felder, a deputy comptroller for budget and accounting of the City of New York, spoke about metzitzah b'peh on Hikind's radio show last night.They were indignant that the city – and especially Mayor Bloomberg – would have the "chutzpah" to interfere with the free practice of religion. Both men advocated breaking the law requiring informed consent if it is adopted:

Dov Hikind and Simcha Felder on MBP 9-1-2012

In the part of the discussion I heard, neither man mentioned the risks associated with metzitzah b'peh or that babies had been maimed and had died from it.

Religious freedom does not mean that governments must tolerate child sacrifice or mistreatment.

When Christian Scientist parents refuse to allow a seriously ill child to be treated by doctors or to be given medication, we remove the child from the parents' care and treat him.

If parents take sick children to witch doctors or shamans, and the child dies or is seriously injured from an illness that was otherwise treatable medically, we very often prosecute the parents for criminal neglect.

If parents chose to pass their child through fire as a religious purification ritual, we would criminally prosecute those parents regardless of whether the child is injured or killed or come out of the fire unscathed.

Some religions require female genital mutilation, circumcision. But we do not allow it to be done because the practice is cruel and it permanently damages the girls, and we criminally prosecute those who do this to children.

The time has come where it appears to have become necessary for New York City to to protect haredi children from the negligence of their parents and their parents' rabbis by criminally prosecuting those adults who perform metzitzah b'peh and those who encourage it or allow it to be done on children.

This is not an issue of religious freedom.

The rabbis' proclamation:

And here is a translation of that proclamation from Yeshiva World:

“To our honorable brothers Bnei Yisroel, with the God of Abraham, We are shocked that the NYC Health Department, is about to enact new and evil decrees, in the matter of arranging Bris Milah, that has been the custom in our tradition for us from generation to generation. We are standing in grave danger, may the merciful one help us. Whose heart will not shutter in light of this governmental involvement?

The matter is the Metziah B’peh, where they stand to obligate those performing it with advanced warnings on all matters of Metzitza B’peh with the agreement and signature of the parents.

The aforementioned health dept., printed and spread lies and mischaracterizations and exaggerations, of instances of illness after Bris Milah, in order to justify, their evil decree. It is clear to us, that there is not even an iota of blame or danger in this ancient and holy custom of Metzitza B’peh.

This is the first time when the rightness Government of the United States who has always given us the possibility of observing our religion that they are intervening, in the Jewish religion, to establish conditions in the observation of Torah and Mitzvos.

It should be known, that this is only the beginning of their decrees, for their plan and desire is to undo the foundations of Bris Mila in its entirety, may the merciful one save us.

Therefore, we are declaring in the gates of the public – not to be deaf or be silent, until their thoughts to remove us from our holy Torah are completely negated, and we are obligated to battle with all our might’s and with all our strength, for the fulfillment of Torah and Mitzvos in all its detail and Halacha.

We are decreeing that according to our opinion, it is forbidden according to the Torah to participate in the evil plans of the NYC Health Dept. in any form that it may be whether it be the Moihilim, or the parents – with agreements or signatures.

We are certain, that Bnei Yisroel who are complete in their beliefs, will not do evil because the mitzvah of Bris Milah is from the grave fundamentals of the Torah of Israel and our fathers sacrificed themselves for its fulfillment from the times we were first born as a nation – even in the darkest vicissitudes and harshest threats.

We too shall walk in the footsteps of our fathers, even facing the gravest threats and punishments for the purpose of fulfilling the mitzvah as our sages of blessed memory have said, every mitzvah that the nation of Israel sacrificed themselves in the face of a decree of governments it is yet observed in their hands.

Signed: Those that anticipate the salvation of Israel,
Tuesday to the Parsha of “take heed lest ye forget the covenant of the lord thy god”

Comments

[SkepticalYid]

Hopefully none of the infants in their community will be permanently injured or die as a result of MBP. But if it should occur, these signatories would deserve a prison term for negligent homicide. It's no different then a Christian fundamentalist family trying to pray away a child's cancer.

[netflix]

when will the govt do the right thing and confiscate satmar babies at birth for foster care in middle america?

[Korbendallas72]

The Haredim are actually fighting for their rabbi's infallibility. They're actually fighting against truth itself now. They are irredeemable scum.

[Jeff]

Last week, 200 haredi rabbis, most hasidic, issued a proclamation that accused New York City's Department of Health and Hygine of lying about the risks of metzitzah b'peh.

Okay. They lied about evolution and the age of the universe. We're even.

Sickening.

[I can't think of a name yet]

Are there any statistics on whether abortion maims the child for life? Is it ok to abort a child during birth? Is it ok to kill the child after born if it survived an attempted abortion (as President Obama voted when he was a state senator in Illinois)? Do these actions maim the children for life? Does the CDC have any statistics on this? Or is it only religious practices that worry us?

[Korbendallas72]

Yeah, fuck your cynical attempt to obfuscate the truth about genital herpes and MBP, you sodomite piece of garbage.

We know the stats. We know you're going to delude yourself. This is why Haredim are universally despised.

[jancsibacsi]

The mindless automatons are at it again,going against common sense how stupid can anyone be this is the father of all stupidities.

[jancsibacsi]

I can't think of a name yet -You cant think period dummy.

[Reb Chaim]

I would just like to ask all these learned rabbis a simple question. What ever happened to the basic Jewish principle "Pekuach nefesh doche et hakol". Saving lives supercedes everything else. If there is even a miniscule chance that a newborn could be injured or die as a result of mbp, why should we continue to use it, especially since there is a halachically acceptable substitute using a sterile tube.

I'm afraid it all boils down to hubris or chutzpah. In essance, they are saying: "We have been doing mbp for thousands of years long before some goyische doctors discovered that it carries some risk. How dare those upstarts tell us what to do. After all, we rabbis have daat torah which makes us infallable on this and all other matters."

[Korbendallas72]

Everything the Haredim say and do is helping the enemy. Now these worthless shitbags are steering their community (and the rest of the Jewish people) into conflict with state law over the egos of a few hatbearded turds.

Fact is, the State of New York has a right to protect its citizens from the ritual child sacrifice slot machine.

[jancsibacsi]

Reb Chaim--It all boils down to having too good of a life ,they are itching for a fight with the goyim in the olden days they wouldnt dare behave like this with all their might they are bringing hate towards all of us jews,maybee a good beating will solve their arrogance and tottal mindless attitude,tragically only violence teaches them a lesson they are provoking the authorities daring them,theese rabbis have not put in a good hard days work in their lifes,the average person comes home dead tired from a hard days work they the rabbis are fabricating scenarious to provoke everyone to hate them.

[Jeff]

If there is even a miniscule chance that a newborn could be injured or die as a result of mbp, why should we continue to use it, especially since there is a halachically acceptable substitute using a sterile tube.

"Der Rebbe zogt." That's all that matters. They can't even fathom the concept of a different way of perceiving reality. They wouldn't even understand what I've just said; the response would be "What's your point?"

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

The frumma cannot take a chance at admitting that anything they do might be wrong. Once you show that one thing is wrong, their sheeple will start thinking about what else might be wrong. The holy rabbis cannot take a chance that people might start thinking, because then the rabbis lose their power over the sheeple.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

I'm surprised the NY Post didn't go with the headline

'HASIDIC PENIS SUCKING RITUAL'.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

but, hold on a minute.
are satmarites jews in the first place?
what about hikind? is he jewish?

[God is not amused]

Forgive my ignorance but isn't there a tenet that instructs Jews to OBEY the law of the land( when in foreign land)? Because of them "Jews" will not be welcome in any society: AGAIN!!

On a microcosom; the Haredi are not welcome in the Hudson Valley at all. Woodbury, NY went so far as incorporate in 2006! to thwart the encrochement of Kiryas Joel(Haredi enclave: NO gentiles allowed!!!) and be able to write zoning laws to stop them. Mamakating doesn't want their pending ghetto subdivisions either for fear of their school taxes going up(which happened to Monroe, even thought the Haredi don't attend, THEY do get public monies, no doubt goes into the pocket of the "town leaders, who are filthy rich). Kiyras Joel, NY is the ultimate "poster child" for Haredi SUCKING THE TAXPAYER to support THEM. They give nothing back to the community. NOTHING. They show up. Taxes sky rocket. And they are ALL on some form of welfare, the whole town. NOBODY WANTS THE HAREDI AROUND. NOBODY. This has a far reaching effect on all "Jews." Don't think it doesn't.
Oh, wait they do give something to the community. NOISE. TRAFFIC. and destruction of your property value as they bring in ILLEGALS to work for them, making your guite suburban home/town into a NOISY hub for transients. From Rockland county, Orange and Sullivan county, NY the only thing the locals cans say about the Haredi; they are the neighbors from hell.
ALL of them have to be kicked off of welfare. ALL politicians that buy their votes with tax dollars have to be kicked out of office. They are ALL a detriment to the community as a whole.

[Jack]

The New York Post, who else?

[Bas Melech]

The health department is not forbidding MBP. It only requests a signed consent form.

Am I right?

If these rabbis protest too much, I'm worried that NY will forbid bris milah like in Germany.

When HIV was found harmful, the Israeli health department wanted mohels to get tested. Chareidim were the only ones to object.

[Rebitzman]

This is not an issue of religious freedom.

You are correct - it isn't.

If my understanding is correct parents are being asked to sign a document that states that they understand the risks of MPB before having it done. I can't have a tooth worked on without signing a similar waver. No one is being stopped from doing anything. All the law does is mandate that parents be educated as to the potential risks (which are - in spite of the sometimes shrill, sometimes vulgar language being tossed about in the subject - very small).

A law that requires us to do secular paperwork outside our tradition in order to comply with local krdinances is not without precedence. When we marry we rely on the ketubah to define and declare ourselves to be legitimately married, but we also comply with secular law and get and file the local marriage license as well.

The decree is just nonsense, and is a knee jerk "we won't give an inch" response to the somewhat legitimate fear that those who seek to ban MPB seek ultimately to ban Brit milah.

I same "somewhat" because while there are a bunch if hysterical voices that are calling for such a ban - fact is, it simply is not going to happen. So let's them scream.

[Alzheimer]

Can you tell me again, what is MBP?

[Rebitzman]

@Jack

...And Yeshiva World, AND the edict itself.

[Sarek]

My torah must be different from theirs. I can't find the passage that requires MPB.

Anyway, what's a few kids dying compared to their upholding their perverted take on religious requirements?

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

++Alzheimer | September 02, 2012 at 10:15 AM++

It's a HASIDIC PENIS SUCKING RITUAL.

[jancsibacsi]

Alzheimer--dummy no point in telling it to you
go to shrink.

[Jayman]

How far has the Hasidic movement strayed from its roots!!!!

The original Hasidic movement, as espoused by the Baal Shem Tov, Maggid of Mezritch, and first three generations of rebbes after that, was a movement that glorified the simple Jew who served God in the best way he knew how. It taught the joy of serving God and of prayer. It taught panentheism--that God is in all things and encompasses all things. It was a movement of spontaneity, of nonjudgmentalism, of love. And the rebbes, who were the ones who interceded on behalf of the people to God--were real rebbes in those days--caring deeply about the needs of the common folk, living lives of total devotion, and shunning riches, honor, and fame.

And yet today we have these hundred plus sects that demand unquestioning conformity, robot-like observance, and attachment to customs that are hopelessly outdated. Don't get me wrong. I think the Hasidic movement is necessary and has done some good for the Jews in our time--preserving the traditions of Polish and central European Jewry, preserving the Yiddish language as a spoken tongue, and promoting democracy by not being afraid to be different. But look at it this way:

Two hundred years ago, the Hasidim adopted a new kind of slaughtering knife that was extra strong and sharp. In so doing, they not only sought to serve God better but also to eliminate the suffering of animals. Today, however, they seek to preserve a dangerous method of circumcision only because its the old way. How times have changed!

[Devorah]

Bloomberg is too strong a leader to let the dimwits win on this one. He'll send them all packing since he is not running for reelection again. They hate him for even minor laws.

[Me]

I don't understand. The issue here is not the mayor or the health department. The question is "is there any type of danger in MBP." If there is - and MBP is only a minhag, then we shouldn't do it. Period. If it is not a danger then each to his own. To answer this we need honest competent Doctors who will tell us if it is a danger. After that then we have to know if Hashem told us to do it even if it is a danger. If Hashem never told us to do it and it is not a mitva - we should drop it. Why is that hard to understand. The jewish nation are not school children. We want to understand the ruling that affecting the well being of our children and if it is a matter of health then Rabbis have no right to tell us shut your mouth and do what I say. Explain it in a way that everyone will understand so that we can all be happy and healthy and serve Hashem in truth.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

++baba boooey | September 02, 2012 at 10:53 AM++

HASIDIC PENIS SUCKING RITUAL

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

When we marry we rely on the ketubah to define and declare ourselves to be legitimately married, but we also comply with secular law and get and file the local marriage license as well.

--------------------------------------
The Haredim do not register their marriage with the state, that way they can get benefits such single mothers, etc

[Rebitzman]

@Bassy

I know and have attended the weddings of many extremely Orthodox couples. I know of no instance where what you suggest to be case. While I am absolutely certain it does happen as you describe in some instances, the absolute statement "Haredim do not...." is in this case a bit broad of a brush (IMO).

They might get benefits for single mothers, but would pass on other benefits (Joint filing, SSI......) of actually being married that far out weigh the few bucks they would get from such a scam.

[jancsibacsi]

Rebitzman- bassy is 100 per cent right i know of many who that here in bp its a well known scheeme in the ultra community.

[Deremes]

The NY Post writes:

"Most modern mohels — men trained to perform religious circumcisions, who are usually rabbis or doctors — remove blood from the baby’s wound using a sterile pipette.

But some Orthodox Jewish parents insist on an ancient “suction by mouth” ritual called metzitzah b’peh."

Obviously the Post LIED when they say "some Orthodox Jewish parents" to make it look like only a fringe group does the ritual of metzitzah b’peh.
Hey,you lying NY Post, Boro park,Crown heights,williamsburg,monsey,lakewood,Kiryas joel and where ever these fringe groups are they do the PENIS sucking.And they count in the tens of thousands.But who cares when ANYONE lies about haredi Jews.Off course i cant vouch that every mohel from these "fringe" neighborhoods when he bends down doing MBP actually does it perhaps some cheat.Rest assure once people found out that he pretended,he wont have ANY brisen anymore.

The halacha says in Shulchan Aruch that its not allowed to drink in the same cup that someone else drinked without washing it becuase its dangerous.So hygienic is something that we know for a very long time.

In order to perform a bris in general the Halacha requires much more healthiness of a baby then doctors.Cant recall exactly but Halacha requires the blood count to be higher then a doctor will in order to have to go ahead for a bris.So to say that Bloomberg or the CDC has more interest for the well being of babies is plain stupid.Do they LIE? Yes. Do the rabbis LIE? No.Think of it what interest do the rabbis have to lie and what interest does Bloomberg and the Heath dept have.Tens of thousands of brisn were preformed and the Health dept cant say for CERTAIN how many or if any died or brain damaged from MBP.

Are there more learning disability children percentage wise in the frum communities then in the secular world or then in the black population?

Nice to see how all that have an interest that Orthodox Jews should diminish are all of a sudden klal yisroels caretakers and seeking the good and well being of haredi children.What a joke.

[Yosef]

"In New York City alone, at least 11 babies contracted the herpes simplex virus from metzitzah b'peh since 2000. Two of them developed brain damage. Two others died." Assuming 20,000 mbps per year, and assuming data collection ended in 2010, you're saying that the risk of serious complications is one five-hundredth of one percent. Is this value comparable to other risks that we get involved with?

[Devorah]

"They might get benefits for single mothers, but would pass on other benefits (Joint filing, SSI......) of actually being married that far out weigh the few bucks they would get from such a scam."

Sorry, but you are incorrect. New Square has over 90% welfare and I believe KJ has more since KJ is the poorest town in New York state. Marriages are religious only and not filed with the state, so the whole town is unwed mothers. It's not just a few bucks, since they get section 8, medicaid, free cell phones, utilities, food stamps, respite care for several weeks when they give birth.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/nyregion/kiryas-joel-a-village-with-the-numbers-not-the-image-of-the-poorest-place.html?pagewanted=all

[jancsibacsi]

Deremes-Di shoite chussid you are a mindless automaton robot ,theese rebeleh actually think they are god cant do no worng and you shoitele are buying into it,any thinking person instinctively knows that mbp is not the way of normal people especially after all the info we got today but you are under some mental hypnotic trance and keep on repeating the same insanity,get it through youre thick skull rebbes are not god di shoite chussid.

[A. Nuran]

Translated into English:

Nothing is more important than sucking bloody infant dick. You should go to jail to defend our right to fellate babies.

[Deremes]

Janci putz,try first without name calling.
Di tipish of course they are not g-o-d.But you shouldn't care if there are because you anyways don't believe in g-o-d so g-o-d doesn't mean much by you.

[jancsibacsi]

Deremes -A person who is proud of himself as an ignorant goilen should be called shoite,as i wrote before i am older then you and the first thing in the toireh is respect derech eretz ,i guarantee you i have much much more yichus then you have and much more then alot of rebbes you calling me putz shows who yuou really are a true shoite.

[Bas Melech]

Deremes and Jancsi--

The rude behavior of chareidim is one of the reasons I no longer am one of them. Chareidim call people names who disagree with them. Some innocently don't even know they said something wrong. Elders, life experience, and wisdom of elders mean nothing.

Chareidim fabricate falsehoods about dissenters.

Deremes, how do you know that jancs doesn't believe in gd? Rabbis he doesn't believe in as do many GD fearing people.

[not surprised]

Oh, A. Nuran, you're at it again. Those gross oversimplifications of yours never get old. Neither will your hatred of chareidim, be they good or bad, and your adamant belief that all religious people are insane. And you say your fair, open-minded, and treat everyone equally. hmm....

[Yaakov]

So far as I can tell, the only source that would make metzizah b'peh an integral part of brit milah is the Zohar.

Given that there is a definite risk of harm (arguments concerning its magnitude aside) from the procedure, and no medical or halachic benefit from it (we surely don't posken from the Zohar!), it seems to be a simple case: do brit milah, use a mohel, have it in a shul. Perform the mitzvah, even do metzizah, just don't do it b'peh. Don't do something that has risk with no demonstrable benefit.

Now, unfortunately, the situation has evolved and doing metzizah b'peh actually has a benefit now. It's not medical, it's purely social. It's become mandatory for the erlicher Yid to do. If not, you are acting like the maskilim, and you are joining those who "do evil", and are "incomplete in their beliefs".

This is a terrible bind for parents. They must now choose to roll the dice for their child's future or become "evil". I can't see much that can be done about this now. It is a fight of the Rabbis to maintain their power. I'd imagine they are very scared.

This is an unprecedented time for Rabbinic "authority". Never have they been practically so weak (legitimate questions of authority, no real kehilot, losing their grip on the impunity with which they used to be able to intimidate their followers, etc.); while the threat of the outside world becoming accessible is so great (the Internet and a much more open society).

The irony is that their approach of trying to hold on tighter is almost certainly precisely the wrong thing to do. This is probably the path to self-destruction.

[Yosef]

Yaakov, ever hear of "Minhag Yisroel Din"?

[Rocky]

I don't think any rabbis are going to be arrested or thrown in jail for encouraging civil disobedience in this case. There are too many political careers at stake. And if a few Jewish babies die, "nu mileh, vous kemitteen".

[Deremes]

Bas Melech-you are naive or pretending.There isn't a name that Chareidim are not called.Posters on fm are calling chareidi Jews the most vile disgusting names and you say you left it becuase the name calling,hu?
Janci,has said many times that he does not believe in the coming of moshiach doesn't believe in davening so i repeat his words.
The issue here is MBP

[Deremes]

Yosef,more then you say it is Minhag OIKER Halacha.

Yaakov,it would be silly to discuss the entire halacha aspect of MBP here but the ZOHAR is not an ONLY thing.There are many things we do that it is based ONLY in the ZOHAR.

[jancsibacsi]

Deremes -You are a true lier i never said i dont daven in fact i even daven for de amed
i dont beleive moshiach exists he is a figment of our imagination even though i daven for his coming its a habit that we have like robots and of course i do it because i dont want to be left out, i can tell you this for sure if moshiach didnt come when the 6 million were butchred he willl never ever come we all of us live in a make beleive world since reality is too harsh and its much more pleasant to imagine then come to terms with reality you deremes are naything but emes youre behaviour gives you away youre infantile concept of this world is youre enemy mark my words.

[Bas Melech]

Yaakov,
Well stated comments.

Especially:
"The irony is that their approach of trying to hold on tighter is almost certainly precisely the wrong thing to do. This is probably the path to self-destruction."

Example:
When rabbis and educators think that kids are going off the derek, they increase the hours of study.

[Yaakov]

Yosef:

Yes. But a minhag which is based on error doesn't have that force. And, a dangerous act cannot be a legitimate mihag Yisrael.

If the Zohar is good enough, let's learn out that metzizah b'peh is actually avodah zara from the Navi.

Yermiyahu [7:31] says:

They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

Rashi comments:

Tophet is Moloch, which was made of brass; and they heated him from his lower parts; and his hands being stretched out, and made hot, they put the child between his hands, and it was burnt; when it vehemently cried out; but the priests beat a drum, that the father might not hear the voice of his son, and his heart might not be moved.

These Rabbis are like the priests of Moloch. They demand that parents sacrifice their children to a risk that God never commanded them, and beat their drums so that the parents cannot hear the warning from those who know the danger.

I think this is as good as using the Zohar to support the idea, and I think it is far more Torah-true than this narrishkeit that we are seeing.

[jancsibacsi]

Lets not forget one meshugener creates a thousand other meshugener this is in a nutshell what all this mbp amounts to.

[Yaakov]

Deremes:

Shalom aleichem! It is good to see you. I tried to greet you in another thread but you didn't post more. I hope you and your family are well, and that your parnasa is good.

The definition of "we" here is very important, of course. I have a great deal of difficulty using accepting the Zohar as the sole source for something being halacha Moshe miSinai. The history of the Zohar is dodgy at best.

There could be a great deal of insight in the sefer. It might teach interesting things. But, to accept it as authoritative for this sort of case is just not possible for me. The provenance of the Zohar is not very ambiguous, and its author had strong monetary motives for claiming otherwise. I know that you won't share my distrust of it. This will certainly remain a point of contention for us.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Is it ok to kill the child after born if it survived an attempted abortion (as President Obama voted when he was a state senator in Illinois)?

Posted by: I can't think of a name yet

stop your nonsense. the bill obama voted against with many others was one which would have required that any aborted fetus which showed any signs of life be classified as a "born-alive infant" and be entitled to legal protection EVEN WHEN DOCTORS KNOW IT CANT SURVIVE. obama and the others who voted against it knew that the real purpose of the bill was to weaken roe vs. wade. it was a cheap ploy by the anti-choice side.
to say that he claimed it ok to kill a child after it was born is a pathetic lie.
let me guess...youre charedi?

[WoolSilkCotton]

Deremes, you were honored at the FM Asifa a few weeks ago.
I hope that did not ruin your reputation among the Satmar.
We are not your enemy. Also, you always think we are not religious. Most of us here, including me, are much more religious than you think. I suspect if you gave your fellow Satmarer a chance to vent anonymously, you would hear far worse complaints against the frumma velt than you do here on FM.

[Reb Chaim]

As bad as this rabbinical edict is, you should have heard the squealings of the frummie politicians last night on the radio. Both Dov Hikind and Simcha Felder weighed in opposing any interfence by the government on this issue. They both referred to such grandiose principles as freedom of religion and the wall of separation between church of state, etc., etc. I didn't expect anything intelligent from the haredi rabbonim who after all, think like people from the middle ages. But to hear the same kind of claptrap from supposedly intelligent politicians was quite disappointing. I guess they value reelection above everything else and so are only too happy to subvert any intelligence they might have in order to curry favor from this influential group.

[Deremes]

Yaakov,b'h all is good by me hopefully by you too.
As i said this is not the place to discuss the whole halacha of MBP but will tell you this much that what you say is pure Am Haaretz's.R'Yaakov from FM says one thing and generations of poskim say differently.

WoolSilkCotton,
How was i honored?
Correct me if im wrong but dont you post on shabbos and yom tov? how religious can you be?
No one is perfect and i know the faults of the frumma more then you,believe me.But i dont buy into the lies there are being told becuase i live it and know that many are just lies.But hey who cares about lies when it comes to fum Jews.

[jancsibacsi]

WoolSilkCotton- I was once a satmerer but the molestation and beatings bought me to my senses i got out from the black hole that i was in,i understand deremes he is from birth programmed to think that the hassidim are holier then thou but of course they are just like others but they cannot face it the power of the black hole the pulling power is so strong that it is almost impossible to extracate onself from it his mind just wont accept reality as we know it sometimes even i have that feeling but i know how to counter that feeling

[jancsibacsi]

Reb Chaim-- I guarantee you if this would be pre ww2 and the same situation that mbp is gangenours to a new born baby the rebbes would keep their mouth shut they would be so scared from the nonjews todays rabbis are a spoiled brats they have it too good they cant keep their mouths shut for their own good,they cant rest until they create anti semitism,those days the rabbis worked hard they didnt have the luxury that they have today they were more realistic in the 21 st century anything goes with the foolish rebbes they are absolute shoites gigantic fools playing with hellpless childs life how brave.

[jancsibacsi]

Deremes-The biggest lies are the lies that you lie to youreself by ignoring reality,youre name tells everything youre the exact opposite of it so wake up.

[Dick-Scalper]

It will be up to merciful mothers to spare their sons this humiliation. With a few exceptions, most circumcised men are so defensive they'll never own up to their loss.
~Dick-Scalper

[David Richtig]

Sighhh. Still obsessing over circumcision. And this from a guy who is himself not circumcised. Aint that right basement rat?

[Yaakov]

Deremes:

Baruch haShem, things are going swimmingly here. I am very glad to hear you are having good fortune as well.

Deremes, you know I am not a Rabbi. I never claim to be one. But to use that sort of rhetoric, calling me "Rabbi", as if I have to set myself against "generations" of Rabbis is not very good argumentation.

Of course, your main approach is argumentum ad verecundiam, appeal to authority, which you consider completely legitimate. I understand that. So, I am attacking this at that level, not by claiming my own authority but by questioning the validity of the claims of the authorities you do accept.

While you are ready to accept their opinions, without demanding that they be "good opinions" in any way except that they came from "Rabbis", I have the need to understand the rationale they used. I don't believe they have the right to invent extra-halachic things, or to claim that such inventions of others—no matter how old—are something that binds me when there are thing lifnei hapunim sheli that show me there is danger in following them.

In this case they rely on the ultimate argumentum ad verecundiam by claiming this is halacha Moshe miSinai. But they base this claim on a sefer which has a history of fraud and, in a grand act of circularity, they proclaim it Zohar haKodesh.

I know that none of this can be convincing to you. You have some basic assumptions which are completely unassailable by logic. You live in a closed system of reasoning where authority is self-assigned. I can't argue against "if the Rabbis say it is so, it is so" in any way that will touch you at all.

But I do not accept this idea, nor, thank God, do I have to because although metzizah b'peh should be banned (and it should be banned by the Rabbis), doing so is not an abrogation of religious freedom which I do enjoy as an American.

[Bas Melech]

Deremes-
I hold frum people (Torah observant)to a higher standard, because they have the Torah to teach how to be a mensch. I don't like the derogatory name calling of chareidim either.

As a Torah Jew, you should not use bad language like "putz." You should use what today is call politically correct.

As for MBP, I as a woman do not know the issue as well as you and other men do. My sons' brisim I assume were MBP. Since mothers don't usually witness their sons' bris, I can't comment on MBP. I know that if I had seen it, I would have probably vomited.

I know mohels who have yiras shamayim who don't do it, and yeshivish families who won't use a mohel who does it. I respect their knowledge of this issue.

[jancsibacsi]

Bas Melech- I AM man and it was done to me but when i first saw mbp done at the age of 9 at a brit i got scared and could not beleive what the moel just did this was in europe i was ashamed that we stoop to such degenerate level i am still ashamed and i come from a hasidishe family pre war hassidishe my father did not have a beard

[A. Nuran]

not surprised:

I keep telling the truth. The Charedim don't care how many babies die from this degenerate practice. Their grandfathers sucked bloody baby cock, so they will suck it, too.

[dh]

David Richtig, quick, what's a seven letter word for thick?

[SkepticalYid]

Placing the mouth against an newborn's open would exposes the child to possible infection by some nasty pathogens. Since a newborn doesn't have an active immune system as of yet, the risk of long term damage or death is significant. No one really knows how many infants have been disabled or killed by improper MBP. The studies are too localized and too recent to show the full impact of this practice on infant morbidity. It's probably much higher then the recent studies indicate.
Potential infections include herpes, hpv, hepatitis, cytomegalovirus, staphylococcus and enterococcus, among others. It's such a simple thing to use a pipette instead of direct mouth to wound contact. Many poskim have and continue to allow a pipette in place of direct oral/genital contact.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

++Deremes | September 02, 2012 at 04:01 PM++

A lot of people, who you consider enemies, said nice things about you at the Asifa.
Exactly what I observe or not? Even if was a strict Shomer Shabbos, you would not like where I am 'holding'. All I am asking is to judge me l'kaf zchus.
We agree surprisingly often here, and when we don't, I realize where you are 'coming from'.

[jancsibacsi]

A. Nuran -THEIR SELFISHNESS WILL GET THEM AT THE END

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Jancsi,

I was brainwashed by Lubavitch during a very vulnerable time in my life when I was very depressed, and I became one of their robots for 10 years, age 20-30, during what should have been the best years of my life.
Even after that, I still was close with them and went to 770 regularly, still kept a lot of Chabad minhagim, etc.
Even after you see their phoney side and the crookedness, it is so easy to fall back in with them, because their world is so easy; you don't have to think or worry about anything. The Rebbe tells you what to think, what to do every minute, what to wear, your every minute is planned out by them each day for you, and it is a very easy and happy life as long as you don't rock the boat and try to think for yourself, and it is very tempting to go back.
My ladyfriend and kids don't even realize I have such thoughts sometimes. The freedom to think and do what I think is right, even if sometimes maybe I'm wrong, is worth more to me than some Rebbe winking and pouring me a shot of vodka.
And when I read about such perversion like MbP, it helps me affirm that I've made the right choice, and when I see a person like Deremes trying to defend them, I realize he is a good person at heart but is still under the spell of the rebbes who are expert mind-control hypnotists.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Deremes, for your information, I know some hasidim who use their cell phones on Shabbos for e-mails and texting, and they are just as dressed up in the black costume like you are, and they live in Williamsburg.

[Bas Melech]

Deremes-

We are not your enemies. We don't care if you support MBP and have different opinions on other issues.

What we do care is that you realize that other valid daas torah opinions and practices exist. We want you to think and not be as jansci wrote an automaton.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

And on another note... Doctors ask patients to sign informed-consent forms to save themselves from lawsuits.
Did it occur to anyone that getting the parents to sign informed consent forms for MBP is also for the benefit of the models?
Should one of the little ones fall ill after the MBP (or HPSR as WSC has renamed the practice), the unwarned parents should be able to sue the beard off the mohel for intentional/reckless conduct. And this would be more evidence of his criminal misconduct.
So mohel pays big bucks AND go to jail.

[Bas Melech]

Jansci-

We come from very different backgrounds and experience(d) very different lives. My family arrived in US over 100 years ago. None of the lived in NY. They came from a misnagid background. Yet we agree on many things. We have experienced life.

What we do have in common is our age. People of our generation see the world differently than those 40 and younger. We came from time of more respect for elders and other Jews.

Deremes and others his age don't know about religious men without beards and women without wigs. They can't understand why holocaust survivors stopped believing in HaShem and/or moshiach. I worry that the younger generation will follow a false moshiach (and I don't mean Lubavitch). All you have to do is observe all the mind control in both the chasidish and litvish communities.

MBP is an example of doing the chumrah and not the halacha. Today frum Jews mistake the fence for the halacha.

[jancsibacsi]

Bas Melech-If i tell you that after i left europe and was no more under the influence of my rebbi i was still so scared of him,in the heder we used to have bald hair cuts as the hassidim it was demanded of us even though i was in a communist country and had to go in the morning to regular public school in the afternno we went to heider amongst the nonjews i felt like a freak with my bald haircut and little payes there in europe we had to take of our caps to sit in the class i am telling you this because the hassidim are control freks the only way they feel good about themselfs if they sujugate someone weaker then them about my haircut after leaving europe i grew its called in yiddish a chup i was still so scared that i would be punished that i was looking if my rebbi is not there to check me up this is how the mind is altered by fear dermems most probably has this feaqr of has vechulile thinking differently then his rebbes expect him this fear developes into a paranoia.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

++Bas Melech | September 02, 2012 at 06:57 PM++

That was an excellent post.

++jancsibacsi | September 02, 2012 at 07:08 PM++

The same is true with other religions. I know Irish Catholics our age, raised in Ireland, who were kept under the same brainwashing from the priests there, who controlled everyone and everything years ago, and also did so much child molesting.

[MBP]

The correct way to perform a bris ->

http://www.ezakwantu.com/Gallery%20Lister%20Hunter%20Photo%20Set%20F%20-%20Birth.htm

[Yosef ben Matitya]

Yaakov, ever hear of "Minhag Yisroel Din"?

really? din to endanger babies? some din!

[Chief Hole-in-the-Sheet]

Posted by: I can't think of a name yet | September 02, 2012 at 08:21 AM

I think an appropriate name would be as you typed above, just shorter ...
"I can't think"

[No Light]

WSC - sounds like what you experienced was 'love-bombing', every cult uses it as a recruitment technique. It's supremely difficult to break free of that.

The newer generation of cult members are controlled through fear. Someone who breaks loose and has been subjugated by warnings and terror soon finds that the world is not full of monsters, that he was lied to. He realises that people are just people, that other races and religions are not subhuman scum, as he's been taught. Then the whole house of cards falls down around him, and he's a free man.

The victims of love-bombing are not so lucky. They feel intense guilt, sadness and shame for 'betraying' those who recruited them. They want to please them, show that they still believe, deep down,. They think "Such nice people, they're so enthusiastic and devout, there must be something to it".

That person finds it so much harder to break free mentally.

Deremes - you're just pitiable really. Every time you post you're less coherent, less independent, touting the party line of "We have always been at war with Eurasia".

You have no shame at all in labelling people of colour as subhuman, of painting non-Jews as immoral, while living among the greatest hypocrites on Earth. Stealing welfare, raping children, committing fraud, growing fat and rich from overcharging tenants to live in slums.

That you live in the developed world in 2012, and have no concept at all about the world outside your shtetl, and the beauty therein, is almost criminal. The world is so big and beautiful, packed with natural wonders like Uluru, the amazing and unique wildlife and terrain on Madagascar, the rainforests in Borneo, the mighty Amazon where rivers flow within other rivers. There are amazing people living every possible kind of life, like the Mongolian nomads, the elephant keepers at Samburu National Park, sea gypsies, tree-dwellers, people in 21st century cave-homes.

All out there in wonderful Technicolour, but totally hidden from your black and white world. It's almost immoral, isolating anyone from the outside world.

"In New York City alone, at least 11 babies contracted the herpes simplex virus from metzitzah b'peh since 2000. Two of them developed brain damage. Two others died." Assuming 20,000 mbps per year, and assuming data collection ended in 2010, you're saying that the risk of serious complications is one five-hundredth of one percent. Is this value comparable to other risks that we get involved with?
09/02/2012 11:55
Yosef

[SkepticalYid]

If you're so certain this is a negligible risk, let a mohel lick your next surgical incision.

[jancsibacsi]

No Light-How should he know all the beuty of this world he has no cable tv:).

[Jeff]

I was brainwashed by Lubavitch during a very vulnerable time in my life when I was very depressed, and I became one of their robots for 10 years, age 20-30, during what should have been the best years of my life.
Even after that, I still was close with them and went to 770 regularly, still kept a lot of Chabad minhagim, etc.
Even after you see their phoney side and the crookedness, it is so easy to fall back in with them, because their world is so easy; you don't have to think or worry about anything. The Rebbe tells you what to think, what to do every minute, what to wear, your every minute is planned out by them each day for you, and it is a very easy and happy life as long as you don't rock the boat and try to think for yourself, and it is very tempting to go back.

This is the reason I don't think my nephew will ever get out. He absolutely refuses to acknowledge any sort of malfeasance, and when he's forced to confront incontrovertible evidence, he insists it's only a few malcontents or overly zealous BT's. (He's convinced himself he's FFB. He's like Zelig; he's taken on all of their characteristics. He even speaks English with a Yiddish inflection.)

[Shmarya]

"In New York City alone, at least 11 babies contracted the herpes simplex virus from metzitzah b'peh since 2000. Two of them developed brain damage. Two others died." Assuming 20,000 mbps per year, and assuming data collection ended in 2010, you're saying that the risk of serious complications is one five-hundredth of one percent. Is this value comparable to other risks that we get involved with?
09/02/2012 11:55
Yosef

20,000 MBPs per year?

What ass did you pull that out of?

Agudath Israel of America estimated the number at approximately 3,500. So does the CDC.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

No Light, thanks for the excellent analysis.

Jeff, I still hear and see that from BT's who come to my shul. Your nephew may very well be there permanently.
Of all the BT's I've known throughout the years, about half dropped out, about 1 out of 10 stays fully with the 'program', and the rest are in varying degrees of religiousness (sort of like me).

[Jeff]

Jeff, I still hear and see that from BT's who come to my shul.

Are they Chabad BT's? Do you still attend a Chabad shul?

[jancsibacsi]

Jeff-To me the lubavichers are comical i call them shtark mehugeners:).

[jancsibacsi]

Jeff-Forgot and the satmerers i call wilder chayes wild animals.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Jeff, yes and yes, but I truly think our rabbi is a mensch, and we've talked plenty over the years.

I don't try to argue with today's BT's. Too aggravating. They will have to find their own way.

[dh]

Jeff, you've lost him and a cult has found him.

Stop opposing it because that strengthens his resolve. The only hope you have of the two of you finding each other again is for you to be benign with him about his choices and affectations and show him love, love, and more love so you are where he drifts.

And drift he will. Look how empty he was? So much that he had to adopt a Yiddish accent. That should be encouraging. It only goes to show how much on the outside of it he was, not necessarily how molded he has become. Logic will not fill him. Fill him up as you wish to be filled, praised and ratified. That is your strongest weapon in the war over him. My son summed it up : "You really have to be born into it." when we'd see the BT tucking their tzitzit in, sliding kippa into a pocket and ordering a Big Mac.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

++dh | September 03, 2012 at 12:36 PM++

Totally agree.

[Jeff]

Honestly, I don't really care any more. He isn't my kid. Let him throw his life away.

Meanwhile, I have nine years of his fundamentalist crap floating around inside my head that I can't get rid of. If his parents had any money, I'd sue them for nearly a decade of mental anguish.

[dh]

Yawn. Gimme a break. Okay, everyone here who thinks Jeff doesn't care about his nephew raise your hand. Anyone? Hands? No one?

As you are experiencing, one can love, deeply love, the child of another.

[Jeff]

Really, we aren't that close.

[dh]

Were you?

[The Anti-Schmendrick]

The Rebbe tells you what to think, what to do every minute, what to wear, your every minute is planned out by them each day for you, and it is a very easy and happy life as long as you don't rock the boat and try to think for yourself, and it is very tempting to go back.
====
LOL.

Maybe in yeshiva, which is the way it is in any school, there are set rules. Neither the Rebbe nor anyone affiliated with him planned my life for me or controlled it in any way when he was physically with us, and the Rebbe sure does not do this for me now.

What's more, while most of us dress the same way on Shabbos, you must be blind not to notice all the individual differences in dress among Lubavitch men during the week. I'm one of the few who isn't a rav or shaliach and still wears only black and white during the week, but I dress that way more for convenience than anything else.

As for individuality of thought, if you could read minds, or even if you opened your mind and asked a few Lubavitchers some questions in an open-minded and non-threatening way, you'd find out that Lubavitch is 2 Jews, 3 opinions even more so than any other community.

[shosh]

Government has no right to mix into religious practice.

Dina D’malchusa dina applies to issues of taxes, monetary regulations, and other ‘secular’ areas of life. In areas of religious practice, government has no right or place to dictate how the religious ceremonies or practices should or would be preformed.

[for your understanding]

the government and whomever else is rallying behind the law that a signature be needed from both parties regarding the act of metzitzah b'peh, thinks the act is a risk a danger to the baby's life. But, not only is this so far from the truth, it is the total opposite of the truth. The gemarah states that metzitzah bpeh not being done is a danger to the baby's life.