Hasidim Getting Through The Yom Kippur Fast – With An IV Drip

Hasidim who are too sick or too frail to safely fast are increasingly getting hooked up to IV drips on Yom Kippur in order to keep the 'fast' – even though doing so is arguably a violation of halakha, Jewish law.

The New York Times reports on something I've long complained about here – elderly, sick and frail haredim who choose to fast on Yom Kippur even though Jewish law forbids them to.

In order to successfully complete the fast without dying or becoming seriously ill, these foolish hasidim have an IV drip of saline solution and electrolytes inserted in their veins.

The Times describes the process:

It will look like a scene out of a hospital ward.

In a basement room crowded with medical equipment, about 20 people at one time — sick, pregnant, frail and elderly, or on lifesaving medication — will be hooked up to intravenous drips on Wednesday to receive nutrients they need to get through the day.

The unlikely setting will be the main synagogue of the Bobov Hasidic sect, a cavernous house of worship in Borough Park, Brooklyn, that sets up hospital beds and intravenous drips in advance of the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur. The patients will be frail Orthodox Jews trying to make it, with a little boost, through a day of religiously required fasting.

In recent years, hundreds of frail Jews have turned to intravenous feeding on Yom Kippur, which begins Tuesday at sundown and ends 25 hours later, to avoid violating the prohibition against eating on the holiest days of the Jewish calendar.…

Rabbis have traditionally allowed exceptions for those who are frail or ill, encouraging people to eat rather than gamble with their health. Some Jews ignore their cautions, which explains why Yom Kippur is one of the busiest days of the year for Hatzolah, the volunteer ambulance corps located in many Jewish communities; too many elderly or sick people try imprudently to fast. Yet many of those who are rigorously Orthodox say they feel guilty for breaking the tribal taboo against eating.

Enter Mr. Fleischer, who is active in the Bobov sect’s communal efforts to aid the sick and homebound. Ten years ago, after a frail friend told him that he needed an intravenous feeding to get through the day, Mr. Fleischer, with the help of Maimonides Medical Center nearby, set up virtual clinics at the Bobov synagogue, five other locations and people’s homes. Medical technicians at the clinics administer IV nutrient drips as worshipers lie on 20 hospital cots for half an hour or so each before returning to prayer.

Last year, 200 people used the service. All those participating must orally certify that they have received permission to do so from both a rabbi and a doctor. Healthy Jews are usually excluded.…

 Although people have long arranged for such drips on their own and there is a similar program in the Hasidic neighborhood of Williamsburg, the scope of Mr. Fleischer’s synagogue-based program is striking.…

“It’s very hard for a person who has always fasted to face the reality of a situation where they have to eat,” he said. “This way they still feel they fasted and Halakhically, they didn’t eat. The mouth is still dry.”…

Many rabbis have allowed intravenous feeding, even though, according to Web sites on Jewish law, one of the most respected deciders, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, who died in 1986, ruled that eating was preferable to an intravenous drip…

These hasidim who fast when they should not are fools who, even with these IVs (and sometimes because of them), endanger their lives and trample on Jewish law.

Fast days are not some kind of magic days that grant a people a free pass for their sins just as long as they don't eat.

Not eating is supposed to facilitate remorse and repentance for sin, repentance God will accept for sins done against Him in ritual commandments and the like. But God won't accept a person's repentance for sins done against another human being unless that other person forgives the sinner first.

God doesn't need or want your IV's to accept your teshuva for missing ma'ariv or eating food from a non-heimish hechsher (or even outright treife).

The fast is not a rabbit's foot or amulet.

Too bad the hasidic mind appears to lack the rational component necessary to understand this.

[Hat Tip: Mark from Short Hills.]

Comments

[Sarek]

Do Hasidic drug addicts abstain from their drugs of choice on Yom Kippur? Or do they label their drugs as "medicine"?

[netflix]

Insanity.

Do they really think GOD is happy with this? Like he's seeing how devote these people are and he want's this?

Jeez.

[JK2]

netflix, yes. This is about competition.

[rebitzman]

These hasidim who fast when they should not are fools who, even with these IVs (and sometimes because of them), endanger their lives and trample on Jewish law.

The Rambam could not have said it better.

And yes, he would have used the word "fool".

The hallachah could NOT be more clear - and Jewish Law is not written with the intent that we find loopholes.

[seymour]

another crazy thing, if one needs to eat one can eat according to halacha.

this is not in the spirit of halacha

halacha has become robotic without considering the reason behind it

[jancsipista]

Brain damaged is what they are.

[Avi]

Hatzolah, the volunteer ambulance corps located in many Jewish communities

Hatzolah, what a wonderful service. A tribute to the feeling that one Jew has for another. One of the many things that makes the Jews stand out from other groups.

[Rocky]

Is this procedure covered by Medicare?

[seymour]

Hatzolah, the volunteer ambulance corps located in many Jewish communities

Hatzolah, what a wonderful service. A tribute to the feeling that one Jew has for another. One of the many things that makes the Jews stand out from other groups.

Posted by: Avi | September 25, 2012 at 10:27 AM

sorry other groups do it too

[Garnel Ironheart]

I once heard a shiur and the conclusion seemed that it is quite wrong to use an iv to fast on Yom Kippur. The point of the day isn't fasting, it's "inu'i" or affliction. That's why people with metabolic issues can eat small amounts over a certain period of time and be considered to still be "fasting", because such small amounts of eating don't relieve the inu'i.
As a result, it seems these Chasidim don't even know why they're doing what they're doing.

[A Yid]

You can criticize something if you disagree, but why don't you have some journalistic integrity and quote the part of the article that answers your criticism?

Mr. Fleischer, a father of nine, said he spoke to three “big rabbis” and all approved the program as complying with Halakha — Jewish law.

“It’s very hard for a person who has always fasted to face the reality of a situation where they have to eat,” he said. “This way they still feel they fasted and Halakhically, they didn’t eat. The mouth is still dry.”

They have their own rabbis and scholars who may disagree with R. Moishe Feinsteins ruling as they do on various other issues.
The way you present the article creates a false impression for the reader especially since many will just read your quote not the article itself.
Gmar hasima tova!

[Yochanan Lavie]

Apologies to the Coasters (Poison Ivy):

He comes on like a bochur, but it's not kosher
He can't eat very much
Now you can look but you better not touch

Refrain:
Poison IV, poison IV
Late at night while you're fastin' poison IV comes a'drippin'
Arou-ou-ou-ou-ou-ound

He's frum but lazy and his heter is hazy
He'll daven Yom HaDin
Nu, will it atone for his sin?

Refrain

Fasting makes you hungry
And slichot are so funky
And kapporot will make the chicken sick
A drasha in shul, yeah
And mikvah waters cool ya
But poison IV, L-rd will have a fit!!

You're gonna need an ocean of religious devotion
You'll be to Gehenna bound
The minute you start to mess around

Refrain

Repeat last 2 verses

[Shmarya]

Posted by: A Yid | September 25, 2012 at 10:44 AM

Please.

If your reading comprehension skills were above the third grade level, you wouldn't have these problems.

[maven]

I would very much like to have an IV started after Kol Nidre, hook it up to propofol and wake me up when the fast is over.

[seymour]

Posted by: A Yid | September 25, 2012 at 10:44 AM

we all read it and we still think it is idiotic no matter what some rabbis say

[S M L]

This is extreme but perhaps not much more extreme than many of their other practices. As long as nobody's billing health insurance for it then who cares? Who's harmed? The gulf that divides Haredi observance from that of other Jews and/or of most of the rest of the human race is deep, wide and pretty much unbridgeable. Extremists are by definition off the bell curve. Let's hope the IVs are administered competently so there's no wholesale transmission of disease and move on to the next meshugaas of theirs. Makes for interesting reading though the impact of each successive revelation of this kind is less than the one before. Could call it 'surprise fatigue' or maybe 'outrage fatigue'.

[seymour]

what a relief, now i can take my heroin fix on yom kippur without reservation

[MarkfromShortHills]

YL, I do not know how you manage to do it. I haven't thought about that song for a million years. Wonderful! Have an easy fast.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, Mark, and you too. G'mar Chatimah tovah and an easy fast to all FM readers.

[Fleishike Kishke]

The three "BIG" rabbis gave a heter for the IV drip, but not for the cleaning of the vein area with rubbing alcohol as that is clearly forbidden on Yom Kipper. Instead, the Hatzalah volunteer will lick the skin before inserting the needle.

[rebitzman]

C'mon guys - an IV on Yom Kippur is Har Sinai. Moshe Rabbienu himself (he was 80 years old after all) required a dextrose solution IV.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Another frum favorite is Yom Kippur suppositories (I am not kidding).
Tylenol, Tigan, Caffeine, Ergotamine/Caffeine, and Compazine are all popular.

http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/33/39/all_
caffeinesuppositories_2010_09_24_bk.html

[Yochanan Lavie]

WSC: Bring 100 suppositories so you can sponsor the kiddish!

[seymour]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar | September 25, 2012 at 11:41 AM

why is this different than what they are doing in Israel by changing the clock.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

You guys are great. An easy fast and a G'mar Sima Tovah to all.

Time to make the egg salad for tomorrow night.

[Wigmore]

WSC,

Can you order me a cheeseburger suppository? After all, it's not eating.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Wigmore, when you die you'll get a Cheeseburger in Paradise.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

You can put any food in a blender, then dehydrate it by gentle heating in the oven, mix with cocoa butter, roll it into a suppository, then chill to make it harden.

Enjoy!

[ruthie]

Lol

[rebitzman]

You can put any food in a blender, then dehydrate it by gentle heating in the oven, mix with cocoa butter, roll it into a suppository, then chill to make it harden.

Do you need to get an informed consent form signed before inserting it if you live in NYC?

[seymour]

there is really a simple solution to this problem

I eat but I sell my mouth and stomach to a gentle and then buy it back

[baba boooey]

Baaaabaaabooooey

[baba boooey]

Baba BOOOOOOEY

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

My recipe is straight from the Torah.
And there is no consent necessary if you put it into yourself.

I like Seymour's idea best. Sell your mouth and stomach to a goy for 25 hours, so you can eat whatever you like all day tomorrow.
Goyim are standing by waiting for your call.

[Apostate]

Fasting is great for the waistline. Happy Yom Kippy.

[Garnel Ironheart]

> I would very much like to have an IV started after Kol Nidre, hook it up to propofol and wake me up when the fast is over.

Posted by: maven | September 25, 2012 at 10:56 AM

Go with ketamine. You'll have way better dreams.

[A Yid]

Shmarya think about this imagine an old man who fasted on Yom Kippur every year for last 60-70 years both here and in times of communist or nazi persecution in Europe and now is being told that he must eat for health reasons. It may be psychologically uncomfortable (if not downright painful) for him to eat on Yom Kippur even if his doctor and his rabbi say it is permitted or even required for his health. But the same person might feel somewhat better to receive his sustenance thru an IV as this doesn't feel like eating to him.
Considering that physical health is impacted by ones mood why do you insist on mocking these people who provide the means for members of their communities to fulfill the halacha without straining their physical and psychological health?

[mimi]

A yid,

If this is true (sounds too weird but maybe so) I feel nothing but bewilderment for a pregnant woman who would fast.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

People who I remember from the old Jewish neighborhood in Newark of the 1960's, who were Holocaust survivors, were far more understanding of the need to eat or drink a little bit on YK for health reasons.
Only the fools today use the Holocaust as some sort of reasoning for this IV nonsense.
The risks of an IV (infection, nerve damage, infiltration, arterial injury) far outweigh any rationale for this fanatical behavior.

[Rebitzman]

@A Yid

You are describing me to a great degree. I am not a survivor, but have a medical condition as a result of cancer that makes it exceptionally dangerous for me to get dehydrated.

I turned to my rabbi who explained that A) using an IV is not fasting, B) under Jewish law, I am not allowed to fast and C) Judaism is not about finding loopholes.

We are not in any way mocking those that desperately wish to follow their traditions and laws. We are mocking those rabbis who would encourage and allow such behavior.

[Bas Melech]

seymour | September 25, 2012 at 12:39 PM

I like that!

[baba boooey]

Baaabaaaa BOOOOOOOOEY

[dh]

Fleishike @ 11:31

Perfect!

[AntiSemites]

The three "BIG" rabbis gave a heter for the IV drip, but not for the cleaning of the vein area with rubbing alcohol as that is clearly forbidden on Yom Kipper. Instead, the Hatzalah volunteer will lick the skin before inserting the needle.

Posted by: Fleishike Kishke | September 25, 2012 at 11:31 AM

Fleishike @ 11:31

Perfect!

Posted by: dh | September 25, 2012 at 01:56 PM

I don't think Hatzalah is involved in the IV process.

[ah-pee-chorus]

A YID-

dont you see how idiotic and hypocritical this is? you either accept halacha as binding or you dont. in halacha you dont get to pick and choose what you like or what satisfies you psychologically or emotionally. since the halacha is that its ASSUR for one to fast with many medical conditions, one is spitting in the face of halacha by finding some kind of pseudo-fasting technique to satisfy ones own desires. further, there are probably at least 10 different reasons why its halachically assur to administer or receive an IV on shabbos or yomtov. and since these IV's are neither medically nor halachically required, those involved are violating yom kippur by doing so.
the hypocrisy is that these very same people would call someone a goy if he could only attend shul on shabbos by driving. somehow the very same argument - that he really likes shul and has been going for 70 years- doesnt work, yet the IV clowns think their desire to fast is perfectly reasonable and permits violating hilchos shabbos/yom kippur.

[ah-pee-chorus]

YL-

excellent and GCT.

I eat but I sell my mouth and stomach to a gentle and then buy it back

Posted by: seymour

LOL.

Only the fools today use the Holocaust as some sort of reasoning for this IV nonsense.
The risks of an IV (infection, nerve damage, infiltration, arterial injury) far outweigh any rationale for this fanatical behavior.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar

no doubt.

[The Boss]

Arguably, since they are on a drip, which they believe does not endanger their lives, they should fast two days meshum sefekeh deyoma

[seymour]

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | September 25, 2012 at 02:15 PM

they do not see the big picture and they have forgotten the spirit of the law and or the ratinal of halacha.

all it has become is robotic and technical with no thought process of why they are doing anything

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

An intravenous infusion requires a physician's explicit approval, and a physician, nurse, clinical care tech, or paramedic to insert it.

So who is the doctor authorizing all this, and who is placing the IV's, and who is there watching the infusions, refilling them, etc.?

Even if Hatzalah got involved, their paramedics would have to get a physician's order for the IV's, and they would be inserting them electively and preemptively on Yom Kippur in someone who is not suffering from dehydration at the time of insertion, and so I don't see how this is kosher.

[JK2]

If people are at risk from fasting, it is supremely arrogant of them to potentially screw up others' YK because they chose to not to take care of themselves - quite obviously missing the point.

seymour, you are a funny and wise man.

[Lamed Vovnik]

I bet they claim reimbursement for the IVs from Medicare or Medicaid. The Torah would not want them to have to pay for it themselves.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, Seymour.

[seymour]

delayed amazing YL

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

YL

I was anticipating "Sealed with a drip."

[Yochanan Lavie]

Oops, that was a thanks to APC, and now Seymour. Mechilla?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Good one, OCR.

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: Office of the Chief Rabbi | September 25, 2012 at 03:50 PM

It's not nice to needle the FM Bard

[David]

I don't see how this is kosher.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar | September 25, 2012 at 02:43 PM

It's probably not. They make it up as they go...

[A Yid]

"You are describing me to a great degree. I am not a survivor, but have a medical condition as a result of cancer that makes it exceptionally dangerous for me to get dehydrated.

I am very sorry to hear that. May you have a refua shleima.

I turned to my rabbi who explained that A) using an IV is not fasting,

As you know there are many opinions in halacha about everything including this so while we can respect your rabbis opinion on the subject other learned rabbis who disagree and those who follow them also deserve the same respect.

B) under Jewish law, I am not allowed to fast and C) Judaism is not about finding loopholes.

Judaism is about serving G-d thru observing Torah to the maximum capacity.
Thus in the opinion of those who rule that IV drip is not same as eating all other things being equal one is serving G-d better by using an IV on a fast day than by eating.

We are not in any way mocking those that desperately wish to follow their traditions and laws. We are mocking those rabbis who would encourage and allow such behavior.
Posted by: Rebitzman | September 25, 2012 at 01:29 PM"
I think it would be better for the Jewish people as a whole if we will at the very least study the halachik responsa and reasoning of the rabbis instead of making up their minds to mock them based on a New York Times article.
Gmar Hatima tova!

[Shmarya]

Judaism is about serving G-d thru observing Torah to the maximum capacity.
Thus in the opinion of those who rule that IV drip is not same as eating all other things being equal one is serving G-d better by using an IV on a fast day than by eating.

No.

NO ONE holds an IV drip is the same as eating or drinking.

That is not the halakhic issue.

You have people who halakhicly should not fast.

Some of them can – perhaps – get around that by having an IV drip on Yom Kippur. Should they do it?

The vast majority of poskim hold they should not.

Those who say it is wrong cite Rav Moshe's reason about making a wound.

Or they cite the risk of infection and blood clots, etc.

Others cite the basic halakhic principle that when someone is made exempt from something due to risk of life, we don't allow medical end arounds to remove that exemption.

An example of this is a dental emergency on Shabbat that involves swelling. Halakha mandates that the person go to a doctor or dentist for immediate treatment – even if s/he has to break Shabbos to do it.

If a doctor or nurse happens to be nearby and says that treatment can wait until after Shabbos, the patient has to go to get treatment immediately anyway, even if it breaks Shabbos to do it.

Why?

Because halakha treats that type of dental emergency (an infection and/or abscess, generally) as an immediate danger to life and mandates that the patient get immediate treatment.

We don't say that the patient can wait 12 hours or 24 hours and start antibiotics then.

When it comes to danger to life, we always adopt the most stringent opinion with regard to protecting life, and the most lenient with regard to breaking Shabbos, etc.

Not only that, we don't accept additional medical risk in order to keep Shabbos.

Once risk exists, the illness must be treated immediately.

So to here.

The moment a person is determined to be at risk from fasting, s/he can no longer fast and MUST east and drink.

Their mitzvah of fasting has been converted, so to speak, to a mitzvah of eating.

The hasidic poskim who allow people to use IV's must be ruling that these people are not in any actual risk from fasting, but are allowing them to have IVs to make the fast easier because they're elderly, or the poskim have erred.

[Maskil]

Considering that physical health is impacted by ones mood why do you insist on mocking these people who provide the means for members of their communities to fulfill the halacha without straining their physical and psychological health

Treating mitzvoth as laws rather than magical charms and understanding their application rather than defiling them through the forbidden acts of engaging in supersticions (like hanging a mezuzah over the crib of a sick baby) can only be an alleviation and and aid to one's psychological health, and as such if one should eat then he should feel the sanctity of the mitzvah in eating just as he would feel the sanctity in fasting when that was mandated.

That said, if the person mentally deranged or simple then perhaps there would be no choice but to rule that fasting is better. But this is a very narrow hypothetical scenario, given the development of human consciousness in this era, and is not representative of any survivor I have ever known or encountered.

[NugatoryTorah]

Fasting didn't help at auschwitz so there is no point in the superstion.

One can say that continuing this form of torah witchcraft is an insult to all those who perished in the Shoah...often thru starvation.

[God is not amused.]

No wonder the Haredim are such miserable people. Their lives are dictated to the minutia. They have no life of their own. They have NO FREE WILL. They are told from cradle to grave what to do and what not to do. FREE WILL is of GOD. The Haredi are in direct opposition to GOD in every aspect of their lives. The Rabbis REMOVE FREE WILL by their endless "Halachas." Fasting is good in moderation THIS IS EXTREME. This is an offense to GOD. Those Rabbis are going to pay for misleading the innocents into psychological slavery, which is of the adversary himself. Rabbis are an emmissary of the evil one. No one has the right to control anothers free will of life via psychological manipulations. GOD gives children to adults, only those adults for a short time have the right to "instruct" a human. Any psychological manipulation beyond young adulthood is a SIN against GOD, even from parents let alone a stranger aka Rabbi.

[The Anti-Schmendrick]

"All those participating must orally certify that they have received permission to do so from both a rabbi and a doctor. "

If they are enforcing this, end of story.

[David]

The hallachah could NOT be more clear - and Jewish Law is not written with the intent that we find loopholes.

Posted by: rebitzman | September 25, 2012 at 10:15 AM

Actually, frumma have told me that the Halacha comes with the loopholes built-in. It is up to man to "discover" them.

[David]

Why not enhance the mitzvah of fasting and do so all year round?

[David]

No wonder the Haredim are such miserable people.

Posted by: God is not amused. | September 26, 2012 at 09:43 AM

Actually, most Charedim are quite happy because in the absence of them having free will whatever happens to them is due to hashgocha proetis (divine providence) so they can and do go around happy as they have no individual control over their lives.

[Rocky]

Did you know that the last national elections held in Weimar Germany also took place on November 6, eighty years ago? German Jews who went to High Holiday services in October that year had a lot to pray for, starting with a functioning government. Unfortunately, God wasn't listening to them. Nor did he care whether they fasted or not. The November elections were a failure, as once again the major old line parties could not agree on a coalition government. In the end, President von Hindenburg asked Adolf Hitler to form a government (January 1933), and we all know how badly things turned out for the Jews over the next 12 years.

As Nazi regulations began to inflict economic and physical pain on the German Jewish community, the most assimilated Jews had the best chance of fleeing and gaining admission to other countries. Many thousands of assimilated German Jews in the professions were able to resettle in the US, Britain and other countries. If one had enough money but no visa to a safe haven, there was always Shanghai, which was an open city in those years. The Ostjuden from Eastern Europe (Haredi) were out of luck. God didn't hear their prayers and most of them perished in the Shoah.

If you are the praying sort, pray for successful US elections on November 6. I don't know whether God will listen. But the fiscal cliff business is definitely a concern to me. If Washington has a complete nervous breakdown, Sheldon Adelson could always move to Macau, where he has a very profitable casino. But what will you do?

[1234]

Avinu Malkeinu, sesom piyos mastinieinu umekatrigeinu!!!

[Wigmore]

An intravenous infusion requires a physician's explicit approval, and a physician, nurse, clinical care tech, or paramedic to insert it.

So who is the doctor authorizing all this, and who is placing the IV's, and who is there watching the infusions, refilling them, etc.?

Even if Hatzalah got involved, their paramedics would have to get a physician's order for the IV's, and they would be inserting them electively and preemptively on Yom Kippur in someone who is not suffering from dehydration at the time of insertion, and so I don't see how this is kosher.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar | September 25, 2012 at 02:43 PM

I would imagine someone with a New York State medical license who is "bought and paid for" although if the Health Department ever audited this, it might seem to have 20+ people in the same place at the same time with a Dx of dehydration. :)

Better quetsion, WSC, if someone is so old that they shouldn't fast isn't it rather likely that they also need to take oral medications?

[Abe]

Directly below that NY Times story is the following ad. I don't think it was a coincidence. God is telling them something Those chasid shoteh relying on a rabbi's consent for an IV drip on Yom Kipur should pursue that ad. And those rabbeim also.
*************

3 Early Signs of Dementia
Doctor: Know These 3 Warning Signs
You're About to Suffer Dementia
www.w3.newsmax.com

[under duress]

I don't see mentioned anywhere the possibility that hep locks are being placed in advance?

YL - outstanding work, as always. You should create a FM Songbook.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

++Wigmore | September 26, 2012 at 11:24 PM++

Agreed. Considering the fact that they were able to find a doctor willing to support the Hasidic Penis Sucking Ritual, it was probably easy to find a local doctor willing to go along with this latest shenanigan.

If the NYC Board of Health and the NYS Board of Medical Examiners looked into this, the doctor as well as the tech involved (if there was no doctor present) could both face charges. But since the BOH can't even stop the Penis Sucking Ritual, it's obvious that the frumma can do as they please.

It was always my understanding that if you must take oral meds on Yom Kippur, you may do so, with a little bit of water to swallow the tablets.

++Anti-Schmendrick | September 26, 2012 at 02:49 PM++

No, that's not the way medicine is practiced. Can you walk into a pharmacy, ask for a prescription drug, and tell the pharmacist "my doctor says it's ok"?
A pharmacist would, at the least, call your doctor for a verbal order, or tell you to go get a written prescription, depending on what the drug you requested was.

What the frumma are doing reminds me of the 800 number you can call, give them your credit card number (of course) and tell them you would like to purchase Viagra. A 'doctor' will then get on the phone with you, 'diagnose' you as having ED, and you can then order pills o'plenty.

++under duress | September 27, 2012 at 02:29 AM++

Is this what the religion has become? Are frumma yidden now functioning like Michael Jackson and Elvis Presley did?
If you are in such a fragile state of health that an intravenous would likely become medically necessary during the fast, then you should not be fasting. What rabbi would disagree?
And as I said earlier, having an intravenous, or a hep lock, carries genuine risk. There are doctors and nurses at the hospital who spend a good deal of their time each day dealing with the complications of intravenous infusions and attempts at intravenous access. Part of my paycheck comes from dealing with those complications, too.

Perhaps, as someone suggested earlier, the ultimate frum experience on Yom Kippur will be a large open room with rows and rows of gurneys and IV poles. Each participant will lay down and have an intravenous started just before Yom Tov. Propofol and ketamine will be infused, and the Shaliach Tzibur will begin the service, and all will remain laying peacefully throughout, in a Jacksonlike state. Just as it's time for the shofar blowing at the end of Neilah, the infusions will be stopped, and everyone will wake up refreshed and wish each other a Gut Gezunt Yahr, and then enjoy the tuna salad and egg salad buffet.

A Gut Gezunt Yahr to all!

[yikes - did I just admit that?]

Regarding suppositories:
1. they work significantly faster than oral pain medication (guess why!)
2. migraine sufferes who risk throwing up during an attack wont have to worry about whether the pill will set off the regurgitation and/or if it came up in the mess.
that is why I use them when necessary, all year. (yes!)
The added benefit on YK:
1. taking a pill with no (or minimal water as someone suggested above) is just not possible for everyone and in any case usually leaves a disgusting aftertaste that must then be dealth with without water...
2. no need to be in the -sick like you could die- category to take the suppositories and no extra wounds or need to visit a clinic. This can happen in the privacy of your own bathroom.
Actually, once the yuk factor is resolved the benefits are really overwhelming.

[shosh]

Shmarya, where do you get this: “even though doing so is arguably a violation of halakha, Jewish law.”?

Yes, if someone is too sick to fast, halachicly he must eat. And clearly this person still has the spiritual benefits of Yom Kippur. But who tells you that if they find an “aid” to help them refrain from consuming food via the mouth (which is the halachic prohibition to do on Yom Kippur) – it somehow violates halacha.

It is clear, that if a doctor insists that even on IV it is dangerous for THIS patient not to eat for 24 hours, then the person is obligated to eat. But if his doctor advises that an IV is a safe route, then he may choose to do it.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: shosh | September 27, 2012 at 12:48 PM

Haven't actually learned much halakha, have you now?

[Deremes]

"These hasidim who fast when they should not are fools who, even with these IVs (and sometimes because of them), endanger their lives and trample on Jewish law."

To the readers who don't know:
A person who has a medical condition asking a rav what to do on Yom Kipur will be asked by the rav what does your doctor say.
In almost every drasho that any rav gives before Yom Kipur they all say if you sick and take medications dont take it lightly and ask a doctor and a rav how to eat becuase 'Venishmartem me'od lenafshoSeichem'
Hatzoloh puts in all publications te be aware about fasting and if you sick don't be foolish by fasting as a doctor and rav because 'Venishmartem me'od lenafshoSeichem'.
Of course there always foolish people but i assume the majority who take the ivs are under the advice of a doctor.

[Menachem]

Once again, here comes the great Rabbi and Halachic authority who spent nary a month studying it, Shmarya give us his insight why rabbis who have been studying this all their lives are wrong!

[Shmarya]

Once again, here comes the great Rabbi and Halachic authority who spent nary a month studying it, Shmarya give us his insight why rabbis who have been studying this all their lives are wrong!

Posted by: Menachem | September 28, 2012 at 04:42 PM

First of all. the vast majority of poskim oppose these IVs, and they do so for the reasons I explained above here.

The problem is that you're so terribly dull, you can't understand what I wrote.