Haredi Rabbis Allegedly Control East Ramapo Public School Board, Block Programs For Non-Jewish, Non-Haredi Students

[Morris] Kohn, the former board president, said that Orthodox board candidates are approved and influenced by the region’s top rabbis, who used to appoint liaisons to individual board members. During his term, Kohn said, the rabbis discussed how many seats they should seek on the board and whether they should allow a public-school board president “as a gesture.” He said the rabbinic leaders, described as a “board of rabbis,” sometimes decide how the community should vote on budgets, sometimes not. “The (school) board listens to or adheres to the advice of the board of rabbis,” Kohn said. “When it comes to larger issues, the school board seeks their advice and opinions.”

 

The Journal News has a long front page report on the haredi-controlled public school board in East Ramapo, New York. The board's president is one of our favorite sleazy attorneys, Daniel Schwartz.

The board has been accused of several kinds of wrongdoing, from sweetheart deals crafted with yeshivas to sell the yeshivas school board property at well below market value, to paying for religious schools' religious texts, to other types of financial misbehavior.

How these haredi school board members get elected and how they behave at school board meetings is indicative of the contempt with which they hold the democratic process:

…New Hasidic or Orthodox members of the school board generally arrive as strangers to the public-school community. Most don’t campaign outside Orthodox neighborhoods or provide biographical information to parent groups or the secular media. When they take their seats in the board room, they tend to say little.…

How these board members are chosen — and who influences them — have been subjects of intense speculation, even obsession, for many in the district.

…[Morris] Kohn, the former board president, said that Orthodox board candidates are approved and influenced by the region’s top rabbis, who used to appoint liaisons to individual board members. During his term, Kohn said, the rabbis discussed how many seats they should seek on the board and whether they should allow a public-school board president “as a gesture.” He said the rabbinic leaders, described as a “board of rabbis,” sometimes decide how the community should vote on budgets, sometimes not.

“The (school) board listens to or adheres to the advice of the board of rabbis,” Kohn said. “When it comes to larger issues, the school board seeks their advice and opinions.”…

In the old days before haredi Judaism was dominant in places like East Ramapo, we used to call behavior like that of Daniel Schwartz and his haredi colleagues a chillul Hashem, a desecration of God's name.

It still is a chillul Hashem, of course. But now it has rabbinic endorsement.

And that thuggishness and bullying is common throughout haredi society there.

“We are the majority here,” said Isaac Gold, 28, of Monsey, a father of three who works in accounting. “We pay taxes, don’t get our fair share and hear anti-Semitic comments. When we got on the board, our board members cut back, and tax increases became lower. We have to live together, but there can’t be denial. This is the new reality.”

The new reality is that when haredim took power they acted unethically and with unprecedented ruthlessness and thuggishness.

And that won't stop, I think, until Schwartz and some of his buddies – and the haredi rabbis who control them – are serving prison sentences and facing large civil suits.

As for the claim that haredim don't get their fair share of school services paid through their property taxes, we know about homes illegally registered as synagogues and as parsonages and other tax dodges common in Monsey and its environs.

Most haredim do not do this, of course, but some clearly do, and the money they are illegally not paying in taxes is money the schools don't have to pay teachers and buy supplies.

The public schools also fund special education for yeshiva students and transportation, along with lending the yeshiva textbooks and buying them textbooks for secular subjects.

But none of that really matters.

The public schools are supposed to there, free and open to all, so every child in a district, regardless or religion or country of birth, can get an education.

We long ago accepted this as a public good.

Childless non-Jewish couples and gay and lesbian couples also pay property taxes that support schools most will never send children to. So do elderly people and single people.

The schools are a public good just as the roads are and the police are and the fire department is and the library is – even if you don't like to read, never have a fire, hate police and don't drive.

But for haredim, most of whom never took a civics class, this is all foreign.

And that, too, will not change unless New York State forces haredi schools to teach basic secular courses like civics, math, science and American history.

As it now stands, many haredi boys leave high school with the equivalent of a third grade secular education.

And perhaps that, more than anything else, explains the behavior of East Ramapo haredim toward the district's public schools.

Comments

[LikeItIs]

Looks like it is time for new elections!

[Rocky]

Very good summary of the issues, SR.

The School District needs to be taken over by a special state appointed administrator until the Department of Education and/or the courts can sort out all of the issues.

SR said: "As it now stands, many haredi boys leave high school with the equivalent of a third grade secular education." This is a demographic/economic disaster in the making.

Don't be surprised if a wave of antisemitism breaks out in the New York area in coming years. There are a lot of mainstream Jews who are upset by the behavior of the Haredi. I read their comments on this web site on a regular basis. Can you imagine what the goyim must think, especially those whose taxes are going to support such a parasitic lifestyle?

[Ynot]

This area has good public schools. Suffern H.S. is rated in the top 10 high schools in NY state. Clarkstown North, Mahwah, Northern Highlands are all excellent schools. Ramapo and Spring Valley are average, and need to improve, but they are good communities and can be improved.

A lot of the students in all of these towns go to private schools. If their parents want to pay for it that is their prerogative, but they still must be required to pay their taxes to support the public schools. I am opposed to tax breaks for parents who send their students to private schools, as they have the option of sending their children to public schools. If they had all sent their children to public schools, and not paid the exorbitant tuition of the local private schools, they would have public schools that cater to their needs.

This area has changed. It has become overdeveloped. It is the greed of the builders and lack of foresight of the town planners that are letting unrestricted building take place, and is turning a beautiful area, that used to be known as the heart of the Borsch belt (Mahwah used to be known as the "Gateway to the Catskills") into a second world nation.

If they want it to remain mostly Jewish, then they must stop the development and preserve the beautiful heritage of the Ramapo region.

[James Dean]

We have some principles in this country.

1. One person 1 vote
2. No taxation without representation

Anyone that really wants to understand the issue, should read the teachers contract for the district and use their calculator. The contract is available online. Google it.

There is a 2% budget cap. Teachers salaries are the bulk of the budget and go up 6% a year. The cost structure is unsustainable. The teacher's union is the problem and the leadership doesn't care care since it's last in first out when the layoffs come.

It's really that simple.

[John Haman]

Shmarya,
you hit the nail on the head when you said they dont understand the basics of civics. It is mind boggling that they dont see the wrong in thier action. Unfortunetly they have gotten to comfortable in this country and forget what happened 65 years ago. For the 100th time we live in America where you expect to be treated equally but you must treat other minorities the same way!!!!! I cant tell you how many times i ave heard the hariedie justification of, Oh its just some mexicans or shvartzas we are screwing who cares.. etc they dont understand if you want to be part of the democratic system you must contibute to it not milk it.. but These jews are the same ones who caused the holocaust, so it doesnt suprise me. When i was a kid I used to wonder how it was humanly possible for Nazis to hate so much in order to kill innocent people, it pains me to say this but after seeing yers of different hariedie selfish ignorence i can now understand the base of the hatrid(and i am a jew) What is sad is us regu;ar jews have to suffer because of them. they are ruiniong it for us and we must stop them!!!!!!!!

[Rocky]

Ynot: I don't think preserving the beautiful heritage of the Ramapo region is upper most in the minds of the Haredi who live there. They need more housing for their growing families.

[Ynot]

Disagree Rocky, most of the Haredi who live in the neighborhoods of Ramapo live in beautiful homes worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. The townhouses in some neighborhoods of Kaser and Monsey are actually very small regions that are nicely kept and maintain a good environment, especially for those who can not afford to live in the expensive homes. I think there is a lot of anti-semitism in the region that sometimes gives the region a bad wrap.

White and Haredi co-operating on this.

[Ynot]

This is the reason. Whites and Haredi cooperating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woB0K9aUfW4&feature=youtu.be

http://www.preserveramapo.org/

[Devorah]

"The board's president is one of our favorite sleazy attorneys, Daniel Schwartz."

I'm surprise Kantrowitz and Goldhammer have not fired Daniel Schwartz yet. I had used their law firm several times in the past and no longer will hire them to represent me. Daniel said (on UTube) if the residents are not happy with his choices, they need to move. I refuse to move because some fat, dirty-haired, unwashed sleazy lawyer feels I shouldn't be living in Ramapo in my beautiful home.

[YEHUDIS]

I wish the Journal News would do an article on the 2 students that are being sent to a school in New Hampshire at a cost of over $300,000 per student. The county is also stuck with a hefty sum to pay for their room and board.

[SMR]

Anyone who has met Daniel Schwartz will tell you that 1) he is not Haredi, and 2) he doesn't let anyone, including rabbis, tell him what to do.

[dh]

What's the school in New Hampshire? Is it a Residential Treatment Center?

[A Yid]

It's a kidush Hashem that Jews are able to stand up for themselves against those who are comfortable living according to the laws of Sodom that rob their neighbors of resources vital to educating their children according to the tenets of their faith.
Of course it will be even greater kidush Hashem when the state of New York follows New Jersy and other states in instituting a fair system of vouchers or at least tax credits for parochial schools in harmony with the spirit of the constitution of this great republic that allows free exercise of religion for all.
There is no place in our country for the perpetuation of the system created to discriminate people based on their religion:
http://www.blaineamendments.org/

[Joe Field]

Posted by: John Haman | September 09, 2012 at 08:16 PM

I must strongly disagree with your supposition, that the behavior of the haredim caused the holocaust. Although, I disapprove their self-absorbed behavior, you cannot and shouldn’t blame them, for the Anti-Semitic actions by the Nazi’s.

[Babs]

I think she said what people are thinking but afraid to say.....nonetheless, you are correct.

[Yaakov]

John Haman:

I won't impute ill will where ignorance is a sufficient explanation. To suggest "[the charedim] caused the holocaust" requires profound ignorance of the history surrounding it.

I will concede that the attitude of Jewish Supremacy which pervades the charedi Weltanschauung was a useful tool for the Nazi propaganda machine to have, but it was most certainly not the cause of the holocaust and to suggest it is not only terribly hurtful but ignores the very real problem of antisemitism.

That an antisemite can point at the actual behavior of some Jews and argue that they are doing wrong does not cause the inhumanity that lead to the holocaust. You really need to learn some more, and reconsider this. It's a terrible error in thinking.

[Barry]

Yaakov, it is not that simple.

Groups can either co-operate for resources or they can compete for resources. Co-operation leads to assimilation while competition leads to conflict where anything goes.

A group which refuses to co-operate fearing assimilation leaves itself open to aggressive competition and if it is weak, to destruction.

The Hareidim are just following the nineteenth century policies in Eastern Europe of refusing to allow Jewish children to be exposed to secular culture and education.

Ironically, many of these children ended up in public schools. Their ashes being used to lay school running tracks.

[Yaakov]

Barry:

What is "not that simple"? John Haman made a simple statement that "[the charedim] caused the holocaust". I responded specifically to that.

It is simple that anyone asserting such a thing is either ignorant or antisemitic. I don't think he is antisemitic, so I am assuming ignorance. Making such a simple-minded, cruel assertion about the cause of the Nazi ideology and its programme to kill all Jews is quite simply wrong but factually and morally.

It is not materially different from a charedi Jew blaming the secular Jews for the holocaust on account of their impiety.

[Yaakov]

erratum:

…is quite simply wrong but factually and morally.

should read:

…is quite simply wrong both factually and morally.

[Jon Blum]

SR:

Nice job.

FYI: The exact same situation is occurring in Passaic, New Jersey. Passaic is known as the "ba'al Tshuva" (newly observant)capital of North America. It is populated by "Charedi Ba'alei Tshuva"; that is, newly observant Jews who have chosen a Haredi life style.

They control 3 of 7 seats on the Municipal Council in Passaic and virtually all 9 seats on the Board of Education.

Prior to every election, the congregational Rabbis issue a letter instructing the ba'al tshuvas who to vote for. The candidates are, in fact, selected by Rabbi Meir Stern, the Rosh Yeshiva of the Yeshiva Gedola of Passaic and Rabbi Tzvi Hirsch Hirth, the Menahal of the Yeshiva Ktana/Bais Yaakov. Both the Stern and Hirth families control the entire community of almost 2,000 families. Prospective candidates for the Municipal Council and/or Board of Education cannot even run for election without the permission of Stern and Hirth.

It is a sick situation, far worse than East Ramapo.

However, the ba'alei tshuvahas accept it, out of fear that they will "no longer be accepted" by the Haredi community if they oppose it.

Yes, right here in the United States of America. Sick.

[Barry]

Haredi ideology, called for strict segregation of Jews from the rest of society. Such segregation is bound to cause mutual hatred. Indeed Spinoza suggested that this hatred was required for Jews to maintain their identity and was a price, the Hareidi Jewish leadership understood and were prepared to pay to maintain a separate Jewish identity. Many Jews and the most gentiles wanted to reduce the causes of such mutual hatred by forcing a level of integration and secularization which Hareidi Rabbis fought against. The hatred against Jews was for most times contained, however if the crisis of World War, the worst of the gentiles could do what they were otherwise constrained from doing by the best of the gentiles in normal times.

Whether it is true or not, the very segregation of their children from the public school system is bound to cause hatred and tension because it gives the impression that Haredi education is in competition with secular competition and that the Hareidim are using their numbers to raid the resources of non-Hareidim.

The Hareidim have no skin in the game of public education and should keep well away from trying to influence it.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Haredi Rabbis Allegedly Control East Ramapo Public School Board

Without knowing any details, I would say that this sounds eerily similar to claims that Jews control America, Jews control the banks, Jews control Wall St, and Jews run the world and are secretly plotting to enslave you. On some websites, you can take out the words "The Jews" and insert the word "The Zionists".

[Eli, what me messiah?]

While you guys debate the causes of genocide and other heavy matters, has no one noticed what Schwartz is saying in the picture above?

"Doughnuts! Where are the doughnuts? They promised free doughnuts for being board president!!"

[Yaakov]

Barry:

You aren't addressing the issue at hand.

Let's speak plainly, do you believe that the charedim caused the holocaust?

I am not asking if you think that there behavior contributed to an environment that lead to it, rather, a simple yes or no answer.

My answer is "no", all of your social darwinist rhetoric notwithstanding. Your malthusian approach is very simple-minded. The holocaust was an emergent phenomenon It did not have a singular cause, nor was any one of the causes guaranteed to create it.

So, what do you say, did the charedim cause the holocaust? Because that was what I was "simply" rejecting.

[Barry]

No he is saying

"I'm smarter than the av-er-age bear!"

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Barry, agree with you that competition for resources is the cause of genocide (we both may have read Jared Diamond's compelling case in Collapse). But I don't think one could blame Jewish self-segregation as a cause. For a lot of history, segregation existed in ghettos because assimilation was not permitted, or it meant becoming Christian. The lesson from other genocides is that a scapegoat will always be found, even if differences are minimal or virtually non-existent. Differences will be made up. Like horns and a tail.
But I definitely agree the haredi (and same goes for other fundamentalist religious groups) should stay the hell out of public education, where they only come to deprive everyone else of funding and decent educational standards.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Yaakov, competition for limited resources may well be a necessary condition for genocide to occur. It's not social darwinism, in the sense of being unavoidable, if that's what you mean. (the term is often used without precision.) In fact, there are more examples of where there is competition but no genocide than where genocide occurs.

[Joe Field]

Yaakov,
just to buttress our view, it is a historical acknowledgment that before the Dreyfus affair, Theodor Herzl believed that assimilation would counter balance anti-Semitism, but changed his view after the Dreyfus conviction.

[Yaakov]

Eli:

The view expressed by Barry is explicitly social darwinism. It is based on the same malthusian assumption that Darwin's original, un-nuanced natural selection theory was based on.

It completely disregards what we now know about dynamic systems, and cannot account for all of the facts just as Darwin's natural selection cannot account for the facts of evolution at the cellular level.

He didn't know those facts, being entirely ignorant of Mendel's factors, never mind the great progress in genetics and dynamic systems we have made since.

I don't have any reason to agree with you that competition for resources is a necessary but insufficient condition for genocide. That appears, to me, in the context of a dynamic system analysis to be assigning cause to effect.

[Yaakov]

Joe Field:

While l'affaire Dreyfus is an excellent data point concerning the endemic nature of antisemitism in Europe, the appeal to the authority of Herzl is no more convincing to me than the appeal to Spinoza.

Even the most brilliant men can only see as deeply as the intellectual tools they have at their disposal, and none of these people knew what we know today about complexity, chaos, and dynamic systems; and their application to social dynamics.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Yaakov, what do you mean by social Darwinism?
Darwin did account for changes at the cellular level. He just didn't know the mechanism by which they occurred. The discovery of genes was left for Mendel.

[Flat Earth]

And that won't stop, I think, until Schwartz and some of his buddies – and the haredi rabbis who control them – are serving prison sentences and facing large civil suits.

And the names of the haredi rabbis?

[Sarek]

A Yid -
Long ago, this society realized that public education meant that every child of every race, color, creed, national origin, and sexual orientation would get a proper education because that's one of the basic requirements of a society. Therefore we pay taxes to support these schools.

We're paying for schools open to all. If you want to send your children to a religious education, fine. But don't expect me to subsidize education in a religion I may or may not subscribe to. That's un-American.

My school taxes and yours do support your parochial education in certain areas, such as bus transportation and perhaps some secular textbooks. But your religious teachings are your responsibility, not the public's.

[Yaakov]

Eli:

That's not correct. Genetic evolution is cyclic, it doesn't follow the Darwinian natural selection. Even macro-evolution doesn't require "survival of the fittest". Today, evolutionary biologists recognize that the evolutionary gradient can be very shallow. Evolutionary changes occur without the extreme case of peril to a species.

Darwin followed Malthus in imagining that only a threat to the survival of the species would cause an evolutionary change. This turns out not to be the case.

Mendel's work was available to Darwin, but unknown to him. He observed something that seems to be an emergent phenomenon, what he called natural selection. While it looked very much like a cause to him, and his analysis was very clever, it doesn't account for the facts (facts he did not know). Not even Mendel's factors, that is, genetics.

You can read quite a bit about this if you do a little searching. The idea that "survival of the fittest" is how the living world works is old and just plain wrong—in spite of its compelling simplicity.

[seymour]

The Hareidim have no skin in the game of public education and should keep well away from trying to influence it.

Posted by: Barry | September 10, 2012 at 07:33 AM

they have a skin in the game some are paying for it

[Yosef ben Matitya]

these wicked morons, sure make sure that 'eisav seuyne leyaakov'.

[Bench Kvetcher]

When you are providing services that the 19,000 private school children are legally entitled to it will put a dent in the budget of the 8,000 or so public school kids. The question becomes what are public school children entitled to besides for basic education? Sports and music along with equipment and facilities? If you say yes then perhaps the private school kids should be entitled to it at taxpayer expense as well. The system is very messed up and it got there by unsustainable union contracts that were put in place long before the haredim dominated the board. The private school population pays EXORBITANT taxes which are already unaffordable and show no signs of letting up even as property values slide. There are 1.5M homes in Monsey that can be purchased at half that because the taxes are 30k per year. Many homes can't be GIVEN away because the tax bill is so high. Tax relief is a very real need and in lieu of actually lowering the bill for the board to at least give those who are paying the bill as much as they legally can has merit. They are no less entitled to a piece of the pie. The public school rabble rousers live in a dream world where they are entitled to everything without having to pay for any of it. Level the field and if there is a program or service being provided to a public school kid then equal funding must be provided to EVERY child in the district even those enrolled in private schools. Transportation, books, instruments, sports equipment, access to facilities etc.

[john haman]

Yaakov

Although I may have misspoke and went a little to far with my statement, the premise i still stick with. That is, I believe humans have hate in them naturally however in order to be pushed to genocide they would need some help from thier victims to numb that human feeling that tells them they are wrong and evil. And the Jews in Europe esp the hariedem left no shortage of that fuel for the Nazis. Look I believe the holocaust may have happened either way but after seeing the way some elitist selfish hariedim act in America so short after the holocaust really pains me and makes me wonder if never again is a reality. Sorry if I offended anybody. that was not my intention.

[Yaakov]

One of the problems in this situation is that the conditions are not uniform. There is an artificial grouping of orthodox Jews.

Some of the orthodox are taxpaying, contributing citizens who have every right to expect representation even if they choose not to send children to the public schools. Others are nothing of the sort, collecting from as many entitlement programs as possible and happily subverting the system to maximize service to their own families at the cost of others (who may also be receiving entitlements).

The trouble is both the critics and the ordinary taxpaying Jews alike group them all as "orthodox Jews". In other words, the taxpaying Jews are using the school board as a defacto voucher system, with the ethical theory being that they pay taxes and should have a say in how they are spent.

But, they are saying they should be spent to the maximum benefit of other Jews, not the community in general. This is where things go pear-shaped.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Oh Yaakov, you're just old fashioned wrong on this. Natural selection is alive and well. "macro-evolution" is a term used by creationists and ID theorists when they want to argue against it. Speed of change, depth of change, can all be debated, but the theory was solid and more so after Mendel.
Best site on evolution "controversy" (and what is not) at http://ncse.com/evolution

From the PBS website (well researched):

What Darwin Didn't Know: Gregor Mendel and the Mechanism of Heredity:

When scientists today work to decode the human genome, they use high-tech methods to view the microscopic chromosomes and even pluck individual genes out of a cell. But in Darwin's time, it was impossible to see any of that. No one was sure how animals or plants passed down traits. And Darwin knew that the lack of an explanation for heredity left a big gap in his theory of natural selection.
In one of the great triumphs of scientific experimentation, Austrian biologist and monk Johann Gregor Mendel, Darwin's contemporary, solved this problem in the mid-nineteenth century.
Ironically, Darwin never found out. The results of Mendel's carefully designed and meticulously executed experiments, which involved nearly 30,000 pea plants followed over eight generations, were ignored until long after both he and Darwin were dead.
Darwin, like many of his contemporaries, speculated that characteristics of the parents were blended -- like mixing paint -- as they passed to the offspring. But if that were true, some of Darwin's critics pointed out, then how could a single fortunate mutation be spread through a species? It would be blended out, just as a single drop of white paint would be in a gallon of black.
Mendel read Darwin with deep interest, but he disagreed with the blending notion, hypothesizing instead that traits, such as eye color or height or flower hues, were carried by tiny particles that were inherited whole in the next generation.
The patient monk carefully bred and cross-bred pea plants to see how a few specific traits -- height was one -- were passed down. When Mendel bred a tall plant to a short one, all of the offspring were always tall, never blending to medium size. When he then bred those offspring together, three out of four of their offspring were tall, but one was short.
Mendel knew exactly what this meant. Height was passed down in a particle we now call a gene (though Mendel never used that term himself). A plant was short or tall depending on the random combination of genes it inherited.
So an adaptive mutation could spread slowly through a species and never be blended out. Darwin's theory of natural selection, building on small mutations, could work. But no one at the time understood the implications of Mendel's experiments. He soon left biology to focus on running his monastery. Only in 1900 was his work rediscovered.
Only then did Mendel -- who had worked without a microscope, without computers, but with a thoughtful hypothesis, a carefully designed experiment, and enormous patience -- receive the credit for one of the great discoveries in the history of science.

[Alter Kocker]

If the state has mandated services that must be provided by the public system then the state, if it has a suspicion that the East Ramapo school board is diverting funds from the public system to their yeshivas, it is a simple matter for the state to appoint an auditor.

An audit should reveal where funds are directed, as well as showing sale of assets for less than fair market value. In all, once a state audit is complete, then the school board can be held accountable for their actions. If malfeasance is discovered, the board can be removed, and criminal charges can be preferred.

A primary to this is that the state must be interested in pursuing this matter. The video is very much to the point, there is no representation on the board of those who are served by the school district. That, in itself is disturbing.

[Yaakov]

John Haman:

You should read about the Einsatzgruppen and the famous speech by Himmler used to convince the troops to murder unarmed men, women, and children.

I just don't think that anything about isolationism can be considered in any way a "cause" of what was done. It is much more horrible than the worst charedim do, even in their supremacist, isolationist extremes.

[Barry]

Of course there can be competition without genocide because both neither side has the means to defeat the other. The Spanish could not do to the Muslims what they did to the Inca. However bits of red string will not hold back a Panzer division.

Many societies avoid possible genocide by backing down and integrating in the stronger culture on the basis of 'if you cannot beat them then join them' especially if the stronger culture is materially richer.

There can be also be an economic imperative against genocide since it may be preferable to exploit (be it by slavery or payment of tributes) the weak especially when the weaker side is not a military threat.

The option of keeping Jews alive as slaves was closed off by the Allied Policy of blockading the food supply to occupied Europe and crippling its economy. The Germans had an excess of slaves from occupied Europe.

see

The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy (Allen Lane 2006), 538–549, discusses the economic imperatives that lay behind the extermination of the Jews. During 1941 an acute labour shortage in the German armaments industry developed, requiring the importation of millions of workers from the occupied territories. If these workers, as well as the German people and the people of the more privileged western occupied countries such as France and the Netherlands, were to be adequately fed, there must be a sharp reduction in the number of "useless mouths", of whom the millions of Jews under German rule were, in the light of Nazi ideology, the most obvious example.

However much you may wish it so, life including that of societies does not run of 'moral' grounds but rather by cruel Darwinian logic.

You should either try and beat them, (or at least be strong enough to deter) or you can try to join them.

What invites trouble is the Hareidi policy was against both beating them or joining them.

[Yaakov]

Eli:

If you are inclined, you might read this paper by David DePew which covers the history of Darwinist interpretations. I have another paper which I cannot locate just now, more focused on the current point I am making, but this one seems to have the content needed.

In any case, I won't continue with this particular thread. It's much too complicated and you have already made up your mind. So be it.

[Rocky]

John Haman: Many Europeans hated Jews long before the Nazis appeared on the scene. The Jews were branded as Christ killers in the New Testament and this was standard Christian teaching until well into the 20th century. In the Catholic Church, this doctrine was not repudiated until the the 1960's. In my elementary school, we first studied the Crusades in 5th grade, but there was no mention of the Crusaders' attack on Jewish communities (Mainz, Worms, Spyer etc) in 1096. Thousands of Jews were killed in these "pogroms". The victims are remembered in the Jewish prayer "Av Harachamim". I didn't lean about these attacks until much later.

At the age of 9, I started to collect stamps and soon found that some of my German stamps had very large denominations on them. At that time, I never linked these stamps to the death of six million Jews. Only much later did I learn that Germany's hyperinflation contributed to the later rise of the Nazi party.

You should read more about the effects WWI had on Europe and especially on its Jews. Without WWI and the upheavals it caused in European society, Adolf Hitler would probably have remained an obscure painter.

You can dislike the Haredi for a lot of reasons, but I would not link them to the cause of the Holocaust.

[Yaakov]

Hmm... seems like that link is not working.

The paper is here.

[Yaakov]

Eli:

Reviewing that paper I see that it is much too far-ranging to see how it relates. DePew is very good at talking about this topic, so I will try to find the particular paper I have in mind if you are interested.

It covers the application of newer, dynamic systems theory to evolution, and the gaps in natural selection as a mechanism for explaining things.

It has NOTHING AT ALL to do with "creationism", nor with "denying evolution".

[Barry]

Yaacov, the goyim are not stupid. They know full well that the reasons the orthodox do not send their kids to public school is because they do not want them to have a secular education or to integrate into society or in other words 'be like them'.

Bearing in mind that goyim hold integration into society and secular education as vital to economic and social welfare, it follows that in their eyes, these Jewish kids will never as a whole contribute to society but will be a drain on resources. One weak segment in society will weaken the whole of society.

The non-frum see secular education as an investment. Some frum commentators argue that withdrawing their kids from public school saves society the cost of their education. They do not mention that many of these kids will be unable to contribute to society when then grow up because of their lack of education.

[Yaakov]

Barry:

What are you responding to?

[Barry]

Your statement that

"Some of the orthodox are taxpaying, contributing citizens who have every right to expect representation even if they choose not to send children to the public schools."

You cannot ignore why the orthodox 'choose' at some expense to avoid public schools. There is a reason for that and it is disturbing to secular society.

[Yaakov]

Barry:

Did you read the entire comment?

[john haman]

You guys are missing my point. I am not laying the sole blame of antisemitism on hariedem or Jews for that matter. What I am saying is there has been hatred of Jews for thousands of years but I always wondered how some seemingly civilized people can stoop so low asto act on that hate to the extent they did in Germany and the rest of Europe. Now to explain a little better, here in America if you go to areas upopulated by hariedem but containing regular orthodox and reform Jews, like the Midwest for an example or Texas. If you speak to the locals which I have they will generally speak highly of the local Jews (even if they have hate deep down). THey generally will treat the local Jews how they act. With respect. And for the past 50 or so years ou will be hard pressed to find consistent acts of antisemitismin these areas. In fact it is a whispered secret among out of towner's the relative peace they enjoy with thier neighbors compared to the tristate area. Now go to any surrounding town near monsey, lakewood Brooklyn etc. And go to a local bar or mall and assuming you are not dressed like a religios Jew and ask the locals what they think of the orthodox and u will think u are in 1940 Germany. I have ..

[Barry]

I take your comment as suggesting that there is no problem in having two separate educational systems, one 'parochial' and the other not, if they are both resourced in a fair manner.

I am saying that there is never any good reason for having parochial schools however fairly they are funded, because the motivation behind those seeking parochial education is not (in the view of the majority who avoid parochial schools) in the public interest and ultimately not in the interest of those seeking parochial education.

Isolationism or ghettoism can be dangerous for an isolationist minority unable to properly defend itself against a strong majority.

[Devorah]

"An audit should reveal where funds are directed, as well as showing sale of assets for less than fair market value. In all, once a state audit is complete, then the school board can be held accountable for their actions. If malfeasance is discovered, the board can be removed, and criminal charges can be preferred."

The state has completed the audit and found many instances of fraud. I believe some of the results were posted on FM. As a result of the audit, the school board members are being sued personally.

[Rocky]

John Haman: You need to read some German history from around 1871 to 1933. Start with the first few chapters of "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich".

As to the Haredi in the US "hinterlands", outside the New York area, most Americans really know nothing about the group. To them, Haredi still evoke thoughts of Tevia, the milkman (Fiddler on the Roof). One local community newspaper ran a human interest story a few months ago on an "upsherin" (religious baby boy's first haircut). In California, the public employee unions and their super sized pensions are public enemy number 1. Haredi aren't even on the radar screen.

[John Haman]

Rocky,

I do agree with you that they arent as familiar with haredim in these areas hence my point. They are familiar with " normal jews" and generally dont have an issue with the local communities. I am not saying the sole cause of antisemtism is Haredim or even non religious jews, like i said i believe the hatred is insde these individuals and cant be blamed on anyone except those who hate. However if you follow haredim to where they settle and have settled for the past few hundred years they definetly have a way of bringing out the super hate from the surrounding gentiles. When i say super hate i mean hate that causes people to act on. It takes a lot to get someone to hate to the point of wanting to kill innocent people. But after being exposed to some sick selfish haredim over the years. I can begin to understand although on a small level but how evil people can be pushed to act on thier evil ways. like i said germany would probably have happened even if not for the haredim but what i am concerned about is 21st century america. and the fatc that haredim think since they are hated anyways thier actions wont effect how that hatred translates, which i strongly disagree. I believe it takes many ingredients for anti semites to reach the point of senseless murder and one of them is actions that they can directly point to and say if not for the jews/haredim we will be better off. We cant stop the hate but we can better prepare ourselves and try our best not to instigate gentiles to act on thier hate. You can disagee with me but i have seen a lot out there in my interactions with the "goyim" and you would be suprised how much they know about haredim and all thier shtick. So what haredim have to understand is thier actions as a group represent more than just them a individuals. If you want to live and be judged as an individual than move out of the community however if you live as a group your actions represent the group and the message this group sends is we only care about ourselves and no one else. even if legally they are entitled to do what they are doing on a moral level it is so wrong!! and that is what they are being judged by..

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

When i was a kid I used to wonder how it was humanly possible for Nazis to hate so much in order to kill innocent people, it pains me to say this but after seeing yers of different hariedie selfish ignorence i can now understand the base of the hatrid(and i am a jew)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I think you are on something!

While it is not fair to blame the whole group for the behavior of some, unfortunatly that the way it works. The people who think otherwise probaly do not have have many gentile friends and acquaintances.

It was the same after 9/11 when Muslim in the states felt the collective guilt. Someone like Yaakon who probably never met a real Haredi (He thought Waiting4Moshiach was a real Haredi) does not know what the people who lived and worked with haredi like Satmar and others feel...

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Yaakov,

My mind is open. I'm just not persuaded by words like "cyclic" plopped into a sentence on the assumption that it conveys meaning.

And I'm well read on evolution and different forms of creationism.
Depew is not a biologist. He's a professor of rhetoric frequently cited by the folks at the Discovery Institute (the intelligent-design/creationist think tank). He's the philosophical analogue to hard core ID-ers Michael Behe (irreducible complexity) and William Dembski (information theory).

Note for the future: be extra careful when you hear people criticizing "Darwinism" or "Darwinist". It's a slip that usually indicates a non-scientific agenda. If you want to read philosophers on evolution, start with Rob Pennock.

A recent great (but difficult) science book is Genes in Conflict, about how genes develop strategies to outcompete other genes in the same host.

On the power of natural selection on genes, though, I'd recommend The Selfish Gene, still a classic. And also Dawkins' concluding remark that ''We, alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators."

[Yaakov]

Eli:

I disagree fundamentally with your approach. Because our conceptual frameworks are incompatible there is no basis for common ground. No point in continuing.

Truth be told, you've helped me realize that there is no point in continuing at all. These "debates" are not productive, they aren't interesting, and they aren't even enjoyable. Time to go.

Be well, all. Even you, dh.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

Yaakov, I'm sorry you feel that way, and that I contributed to your feeling that way. If you explain how I've hurt you, I'll apologize specifically for the wrong. Not to entice you back, if you've made up your mind, just not to part on harsh terms.
Eli

[God is not amused]

The Haredi is trying to build a government within an existing government(America or Israel) with complete disregard to the RULE of LAW of these countries. They get away with this by perverting the "demorcacy" of the system recruiting corrupt politians who endow them with advantages(grant$$$ wefare abuse) making them "special interest groups."
HENCE THE HATRED FOR THEM from Jews and Gentiles alike. And, yes at this point who in their right mind does not wish that the earth would swallow them up enmasse. EVERY community they show up in they create DISSENTION via their ethnocentricity.
I understand exactly what John H is saying because I deal with the gentiles and I see and hear exactly what he has and I don't know John from adam.
Barry is dead on the money. The Haredi are competing for rescources, but not even that.......they are cheating others out of rescources and PUT nothing into the community around them, that I can think of.
To the world because of their lack of assimilation and they stick out like a sore thumb. THEY are the face of Judaism to the world and quite frankly they SUCK.
The silent majority of Jews who assimilate, play by the rules and yet still maintain their ethnic identity ARE not what they Gentiles see or know. Those are the people who are the true face of Judaism they should see. These are the people that practice tikkun olam, tzedakha and mitzvah(the real essence of Judaism) here and there for anyone and everyone in the community.
All up and down the Hudson Valley to NYC if there is an enclave of Haredi, THERE IS COMMUNITY DISSENTIONS. Now mind you there are assimilated Jews living all up and down the valley, right along side the gentiles complaining with them against the Haredi. Now that is just NYS, the same is true for Israel. If they came with this mindset back in the 1930/40s...........well, obviously the Germans didn't wait for the earth to swallow them. Unfortunately they took out good people too because they only saw the Haredi.
Hey, I am just keeping it real.

[Michael from Lakewood]

I'm hoping Yaakov re-considers, as this comment thread has been most thought-provoking...

[John Haman]

Posted by: God is not amused | September 10, 2012 at 05:40 PM

Well said! People who arent exposed to the gentiles living around the Haredi communities dont fully understand how they are viewed and in turn all jews are viewed. If i go into any local establishment around lakewood, monsey etc. If i am wearing a kippah and i open the door or say good morning or am just generally polite. i get these blank stares and then usually a comment like whoa a nice jew? its sad and shocking every time it happens but it is different faces but same story from the gentiles. Rude jews cutting them off, being impolite and always looking for a scam. Dont get me wrong there are non jews who fit that bill however they are non jews who dont represent anyone but themselves. That cannot be said for haredim. Hopefully one day it will sink in but i am not so sure it wont be to late.

[Rocky]

My only encounter with Haredi is at the menorah lighting ceremony they sponsor every Hanukkah at a regional upscale shopping center in my county. They typically attract large crowds, with many of those in attendance being Russian speaking Jews. Then there are all the negative comments about them which I read on this web site and which I have no doubt are largely true.

But I do think it is wrong to blame the antisemitism of the Third Reich on the Haredi. Prior to WWI, German cities did not experience the violence that they would after the war. In 1913, Berlin was a very safe city, even for its Jews. German Lutherans and Catholics went to Jewish doctors, lawyers and dentists, shopped at Jewish owned department stores and read Jewish owned newspapers. Jews were big supporters of German classical music and opera. Jewish students attended German universities in relatively large numbers and went on to win a disproportionate share of the early Nobel prizes. Jews even enrolled in large numbers in the German military at the outbreak of the war.

WWI changed everything in Europe. Jews became a convenient scapegoat for everything that was wrong in a defeated Germany after the war.

If you are planning to vote for Romney in November because he is more likely to attack Iran, be careful what you wish for. The US already has enough problems at home to deal with. It does not need another war in the Middle East. Middle America (Christian America) does not know who the Haredi are. But they have probably heard of Sheldon Adelson, the rich Jewish casino owner and the largest financial backer of the Republican party. I have little doubt that a war with Iran will be blamed on the Jews.

[Ynot]

I got home late this evening and see you have all been busy typing. I may be rambling, and certainly not targeting anyone, but somehow your letters have motivated my post. People are people. I like living here. The vast majority of Haredi in my neighborhood actually believe in Hashem, and that is good. I went to a private school, uniform included, so perhaps I have a negative reaction, but I think the public schools would have given me a better secular education. The private schools gave me discipline and a sense of morality. I have used that discipline to earn my education, etc, but found math and sciences difficult, so I moved up in areas I was better adjusted to. That is also a result of the private schools.

The Haredi populations of Eastern Europe were decimated in the Holocaust. They suffered the most. They did not cause WWII or the Holocaust.

In Nazi dominated Europe Jewish women coped better than men, and were often required to support men and families in the face of vicious persecution, it was illegal for men to work. Women had secular educations and were better able to survive. Women had the secular skills, contacts, and friendships they made in school. Men who were sent to the Orthodox schools were educated in Torah and Talmud, but found it difficult to adjust to a world in which they were not allowed to work, own homes, or have bank accounts.

We should remember that we are in America, and speaking freely. The people here are Americans, they are not Nazi's. A real Nazi from WWII would not even hesitate to kill a Jew, to them it was a badge of honor. The kids here may cause trouble, but they are mostly just troubled youth. In Nazi Europe an American was tattooed with a number and the letters USA were tattooed after the number. They were then sent to concentration camps and murdered in the same ways as the Jews and other allied peoples. The Nazi's hated Americans, and hated Roosevelt. Roosevelt was handicapped, and Hitler considered Roosevelt to be a Jew, and Americans to be impure. Hitler had a plan to invade the USA, and if he had done so, it would have been a nightmare, a horrific genocide, in which the majority of Americans, most of whom Nazi's considered to be impure, would have been used as slave labor and then liquidated.

[Jewish Cynic]

I see much discussion of antisemitism.
If a group revealed itself to be antisemitic we'd cut off any support to them and unite to oppose them. If a politician supported an antisemitic group we'd unite to get that politician voted out of office.

Well Haredi leadership is, let's use the term "antijewish". Haredism opposes the torah.
Judaism does not support stealing from a just secular government or its citizens, sucking on infant's penises, allowing child rapists to have their way with schoolchildren, beating up women because their sleeves are too short or they are wearing denim.

Most of us have been brought up in the tradition of helping all Jews.
It's time to realize haredim are not practicing Judaism, in fact they oppose Jews and seek to destroy Judaism.
We must let elected officials, Jewish organizations and nations (Israel) that we cannot support, and must actively oppose anyone who helps antijews.

Please note this applies to Haredism and it's leaders. Individual Jews who were born into, or sucked into Haredism are still jews and should be encouraged to leave Haredism and return to Judaism.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

My only encounter with Haredi is at the menorah lighting ceremony ,,,, regional upscale shopping center in my county.

Rocky, these are probably chabad. Not classic chareidi. While they hold much of the creeds of other chareidim, they are different in that the engage in 'outreach'.
To be effective in outreach they specialise in camouflaging their beliefs from the crowds watching them lighting the candles.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

But they have probably heard of Sheldon Adelson, the rich Jewish ..... I have little doubt that a war with Iran will be blamed on the Jews.

tell it to netanyahu, rocky.
that guy seems not to care about the rest of the world he might bring to ruin in the process.
never mind caring about diaspora jews.
in fact it seems he often acts like he prefers to see them getting in trouble so they can join him in the state of 'new masada'.
what a hypocrite son of a hypocrite. his father was an ultra nationalist israeli that lived in america. adelson is of the same mould. the spiritual heir of lansky. some friends netanyahu has.