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September 07, 2012

Does This Explain The Haredi Position On Metzitzah B'Peh?

Bris Milah Circumcision Metzitzah B'peh closeup"Cults promote a non-human way of knowing that bypasses both the sensory evidence we gather and the individual’s rational processing. Cultic knowledge is a body of truths not acquired by experimentation and reasoning, but by virtue of the authority of initiated leaders. This knowledge and its application always contain elements that contradict the senses and logic."

Bris Milah Circumcision Metzitzah B'peh closeup

The facts clearly show that metziztah b'peh, to mouth-to-penis sucking done by the mohel to baby immediately after removing the baby's forskin with a knife, is dangerous. It has maimed and killed babies.

Yet Satmar, other hasidic groups and even Agudath Israel oppose a type of informed consent for that warns parents about it.

In doing so, many haredim deny all the evidence against metziztah b'peh and claim that there is no danger at all. No babies have really been sickened or died, and any evidence showing they have s false – lies, haredim say, made up by the New York City and its health department and spread by doctors and journalists in a bizarre anti-haredi, anti-circumcision conspiracy.

How is it that haredim do this?

Jeanette Pryor, writing about a different group, explains:

…Cults promote a non-human way of knowing that bypasses both the sensory evidence we gather and the individual’s rational processing. Cultic knowledge is a body of truths not acquired by experimentation and reasoning, but by virtue of the authority of initiated leaders. This knowledge and its application always contain elements that contradict the senses and logic.

You might instantly object that most school classes and mainstream religions fall into this category because students and believers assent to complex truths of which they have no personal experience. Yet academic truths were gained through the process of observation by credible witnesses and can be tested. Even spiritual, moral truths can be analyzed by their consequences.…we can assess the fruits of immaterial ideas, such as, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you,” “Thou shall not murder,” and “Blessed are the merciful.” People must subject religious teachings and practices to the scrutiny of logic and ask what are the consequences of a given faith when put into authentic practice? What is the quality of the founders’ lives in terms of verifiable benefit to humanity?

Adhering to cultic knowledge requires suppressing this essential human thought-process. Nobody joins a cult; people are attracted to cultic groups by an apparent good. This could be legitimate elements borrowed from a non-cultic faith, the “high” experienced at a self-help conference, or the camaraderie and affection offered by a new group of caring people. These attractions fill a need experienced by a vulnerable recruit. The benefits prime the new member to identify the cult as the source.

Cult members invariably begin to experience a discrepancy between cult teaching and what he or she observes. Mr. Goldman spoke of knowing LaRouche published antisemitic literature while the leader claimed to have a special love for Jewish people. Confronted with inconsistencies, the subject must choose between personal thinking and the cult-knowledge with all its perceived benefits. Once a person consciously repudiates his or her own mind, defending against intruding reality becomes imperative. As the cult-thought becomes more and more invasive, the member no longer lives life based on the normal ebb and flow of information, analysis and personally-selected behavior. Instead, the subject defaults to free-standing dictums that have no root in reality.

The mind continues to receive sensory input from the world and this causes “dissonance,” a struggle between suppressed reason attempting to reassert itself and the post-analytical intellect.…

The Cult Mind frequently violates conscience, that internalized voice of universal right and wrong.…

The need to limit contact with people who live according to reason explains alienation from family, friends and non-members. Living extensions of the Gnostic, group-mind are only comfortable with people who affirm the illusion in which they live. Within a cult, subjects serve to continuously monitor one another’s level of blind adherence to cult ideology and to suspension of critical thought. Deviations such as questioning or criticism are met with social sanctions that vary in intensity depending on the cult. Anyone who threatens the unity of thought is deemed an enemy. Such a person threatens the essential psychologically-dependent state that constitutes the essence of the cult.

The Gnostic Mind is often compartmentalized and people who eschew reason in one area of life are able to function at high levels of professionalism in others. The more dangerous cults are precisely those whose members seem relatively normal on the surface because they offer fewer external warnings to the vulnerable.

Gnostic knowledge provides profound emotional pleasures. True believers are certain that they see the truth and their fellow human beings are ignorant and duped. This conviction generates a sense of importance that many people lacked “in the real world.” Men like Beghe and Goldman were not “losers,” but both confessed insecurities or a sense of personal lack of completeness that was remedied by their place in the cults. The cults teach that life “outside” is devoid of meaning. It takes a great deal of mental energy to refute the constant influx of reality and this is why so many bury themselves in the “cause” of the cult to the point of obsession. Laser-focus on the group’s mission produces “white noise” that blocks doubts and contributes further to the isolation of cult members from those who have no interest in the one-track-mind of those in the organization.

Understanding the cult-imprisoned mind leads to more effective intervention. Deeply addicted to perceived emotional benefits, cult members resist any threat to their voluntary mental captivity. Being ostracized or shunned by family reinforces their attachment to the group. Friends and family who want to help others leave a cult must start with providing a sense of security and kindness that will permit, imperceptibly, the relaxation of the Gnostic Mind. There will already be plenty of “stored” impressions of failure and contradiction in the cult. If the imprisoned subject feels he or she doesn’t need the cult, they may have the mental strength to begin to listen to their own mind again.

Whatever its inception, cult exodus almost always entails tremendous mental and emotional suffering. The deepest pain is the sense of betrayal, of having tolerated or committed acts one knew (in the healthy mind) were wrong. There is a “honeymoon” period during which members see nothing but the good. Sooner or later the contradictions and flaws appear. Because they are dependent upon the group to supply emotional needs, the members often become bystanders as they participate in or justify abuse or irrational behavior. Providing a place without judgment is crucial or the member may return to the cult just to escape internal or external condemnation.…

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Does This Explain The Haredi Position On Metzitzah B'Peh?

No.

Question whether anecdotal evidence is a proper foundation for this. Seems rather speculative to me.

If there was an elective operation done at the hospital, performed daily on otherwise healthy patients using what we thought was proper procedure, and there were 11 serious infections resulting in several deaths over a period of about 10 years, the State Dept. of Health would stop us from doing any more such operations pending a thorough investigation and requiring us to show what needed to be changed and how we were going to change it.

Indeed, the hospital's own Infection Control Committee would have noticed the alarming incidence of this infection and we would stop the operation well before the State DOH had to step in.

Only in the Stone Age frumma velt is such morbidity and mortality tolerated in the interest of not yielding to any authority other than the hasidic penis sucking rabbis.

For sure they go against common sense and logic,the reason i think they do that is they define god by actually acting it out so they feel all powerfull their ego is way oveboard
since they defy the world they in their minds get all attention they crace for everyone should be allways preocupied with them in short they are anarchists trouble makes.

The need to limit contact with people who live according to reason explains alienation from family, friends and non-members. Living extensions of the Gnostic, group-mind are only comfortable with people who affirm the illusion in which they live. Within a cult, subjects serve to continuously monitor one another’s level of blind adherence to cult ideology and to suspension of critical thought.

this explain many things that is happening in the frum communities

it also explain in away the the ultra Orthodox mentality and why the leaders are banning the internet and many other rules in the frum communities

pas yisreol dress etc

You are not going to like to hear this, nor are many on this site, but I think the "penis-sucking" is a misleading label, and the analysis of whether to ban the practice is missing some basic facts.

In truth, the ritual involves applying oral suction to the point of the circumcision wound with total contact time of a second or less. "Penis sucking" implies suction at the glans for sexual purposes. No one is even accusing anyone of using M'Peh in this way. The main complaint is that it causes a medical danger. I would argue that it undermines your case and goals to use the misleading term, allowing defenders to circle the wagons against it as overblown (sorry, not intended).

On to the second point, the practice should be banned if it can be shown that there is a significantly higher risk of death or injury due to it. Herpes simplex A and B translating into each other is rare, but does happen. How many babies have actually died or were sickened or injured, directly attributable to this practice?
A comparable case might be that of allergy injections, where the standard mandates that one wait 20 minutes where epinephrine is close at hand after a shot. The rule was based on 17 casualties out of thousands and thousands of patients. You migth be better served trying to ban MBP based on that standard than on the visceral picture that you are drawing with misleading political language.

Posted by: rebeljew | September 07, 2012 at 10:26 AM

The last time I checked, putting your mouth on a penis and sucking, be it for one second or ten minutes, is sucking a penis.

Haredim insist that metzitzah MUST be done by sucking by mouth (although there is no such standard in halakha before them).

And now you demand that I call it something else?

As for your 'missing' evidence, the evidence is in fact absolutely clear.

11 babies (at lest) in 11 years, a 3.4 times higher rate of infection with MBP than without it.

rebeljew-The simple fact is that no sane person can accept mbp done to his baby is is vile disgusting and repugnant end of story, its a no brainer that needs no explanation.

Rebeljew - you must believe in the 5 second rule also.

RebelJew, even if you showed the frumma absolute proof that it is dangerous, they would still refuse to acknowledge it.
All that counts with them is that the holy rabbis are ALWAYS right. There can be no change to anything. Recognizing that something they've been doing is wrong? It would lead to questioning the wisdom and authority of the holy rabbis. That cannot be allowed under any circumstances.

There are already several articles from the most respected medical journals by respected doctors and scientists showing the evidence. Nobody in his right mind disputes those articles; only the frumma dispute those articles.

If your child had a bleeding wound and you took him to the ER, and the doctor decided to suck on the wound with his mouth, would you be ok with that? If the doctor was stitching a wound you had and he or she wasn't wearing sterile gloves, would you be ok with that?

I agree with many things the author has to say in the descriptive parts of this article. I don't agree with her surmise concerning the mechanisms involved, however.

The insight of the psychological pressure of being in a cult-like group, of having your personal identity bound tightly to that membership, is important.

Consider the difficulty of leaving an charedi life. Aside from the practical problems of lack of basic skills, there is the looming problem of the vacuum that leaving will cause. What will fill the gap left when everything about how you perceive yourself is mixed with and threaded through the charedi milieu?

It's a nearly impossible thing to imagine doing. Even if one was no longer a "believer", leaving the community would be devastating.

it's telling that you couldn't get this many "gedolim" to the table to talk about combatting child sexual abuse, but they're rushing to the table to save sucking baby dick.

If your child had a bleeding wound and you took him to the ER, and the doctor decided to suck on the wound with his mouth, would you be ok with that? If the doctor was stitching a wound you had and he or she wasn't wearing sterile gloves, would you be ok with that?

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar | September 07, 2012 at 11:03 AM

of course i would if he fist cleaned his hand with kosher wine

Yaakov-YOU are 1 thousand per cent righ it is nearly impossible to leaving a life that was youre whole life its like killing youreself what you were and the pain of realizing that youre whole life was a tottal lie is too much to bear too much heartbreak but there are a few who do break out it is because they see staying in as a death sentence,have a good shabbas haver.

This description of cults describes very well the ultra-Orthodox world today. It also describes the liberal Obama-loving Democrat party.

The entire Democrat convention had one main, creepy theme to it: We all belong to the community, ie government, and we all need the community, ie government. Like a chasidus.

Unlike today's Democrat party, the essence and greatness of America has always been that the govt belongs to us, the people, and that each individual has the freedom, the responsibility, the capability, and the incentive, to become the greatest s/he can possibly become.

And just like a cult, and just like ultra-Orthodox, liberals (progressives) suffer from cognitive dissonance too.

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | September 07, 2012 at 01:58 PM

If you don't stay on topic I will delete your posts.

Past that, you have a demonstrable mental illness. Get help.

Bahhba boooooooooey


If you don't stay on topic I will delete your posts.

Posted by: Shmarya | September 07, 2012 at 02:00 PM

Sorry. I thought the topic was cults. I didn't realize that we only talk about the haredi cult, but not the other ones.


Past that, you have a demonstrable mental illness.

Posted by: Shmarya | September 07, 2012 at 02:00 PM

Are you referring to my love of Democrats? Or your love with haredim?


Get help.
Posted by: Shmarya | September 07, 2012 at 02:00 PM

Oxymoron.

Bahhba boooooooooey

Posted by: baba boooey | September 07, 2012 at 02:31 PM

Stay on topic, or Shmarya will ban you.

Stay on topic, or Shmarya will ban you.
Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians | September 07, 2012 at 02:54 PM

Leave baba alone, LAC. Like other haredim, he never learned basic communication skills, but he is trying and succeeds in conveying his point more than most trolls.

I just checked with the mentally ill and they don't want LAC in their club.

They do, however, invite baba to apply.

DS - It really shows their sense of morality, doesn't it?


The pious haredim, trembling before god, and insisting that sucking the blood from a newborn's penis is an inalienable right. However, should the owner of said penis be raped by one of these heilige yidden, then he will be hounded and harassed until he commits suicide or flees the cult. Then these holy men will say "He was always crazy, no good, a liar".


Just look at our friend Deremetic, for proof of these priorities and principles in action. Rape, abuse, arson, fraud - no comment. Defending the rite of MBP, a savage and dangerous relic? On and on he goes, denying germ theory, claiming that milah is not valid withou MBP, espousing the demented brainwashed paranoia and ignorance last displayed by a flat-earther, or a Salem witchfinder.

Bahbaahh boooooey

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