Bringing Down Mercy From The Heavens By…Harassing Beggars And Depriving Them Of Donations

A Brooklyn hasidic synagogue now bans beggars from collecting inside the synagogue and from collecting outside near the front door, as well. Instead, the beggars have been told to stand on the other side of the street. If they disobey and try to collect in front of the synagogue, the synagogue's administrators threatened to call police and have the beggars arrested.

Bringing Down Mercy From The Heavens By…Harassing Beggars And Depriving Them Of Donations
Shmarya Rosenberg • FailedMessiah.com

K’hal Veretzky, known more commonly as Rabbi Landau’s shul, is located on E. 9th in the Flatbush neighborhood of Brooklyn.

Landau’s is a minyan factory, a synagogue where minyan after minyan after minyan are constantly formed from the very early hours of the morning until the wee hours of night. A prayer service takes place at Landau’s about 22 out every 24 hours every day except for Shabbat and Jewish holidays, when the number and the hours are somewhat reduced.

During the year, Landau’s won’t allow beggars to collect charity inside the building. It also won’t allow beggars to come inside to get a drink or to have a piece of cake from a kiddush sponsored by a one of the men who pray there.

So beggars stand near the synagogue door and collect there, even in the most extreme heat and cold.

But all that changed with onset of the autumn Jewish holidays.

The days leading up to Rosh Hashana (the Jewish New Year), the days immediately following it until Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), and the non-holiday days between Yom Kippur and Shmeni Atzert/Simchat Torah (for our purposes here the two concluding holiday days of Sukkot) are days when many Jews give extra charity.

But, two sources have told me that Landau’s has not only continued its ban on beggars collecting charity inside the synagogue building, it has now banned them from doing so outside in front of the building, as well.

Beggars have been told that they must stand across the street from Landau’s entrance.

If they fail to comply, Landau’s gabbaim (administrators) threatened to call police to have the beggars removed.

I’m told that this ban applies to all beggars who are not part of Landau’s clique.

But fellow hasidim approved by Rabbi Landau or the gabbaim are allegedly allowed to collect charity inside all year long and now, during the autumn holidays, as well. They can drink coffee there and eat cake, when it’s available.

But the beggars who are not part of Rabbi Landau’s clique, or who are not haredi enough or Orthodox enough, have to stand outside – and for the month surrounding the autumn Jewish holidays. they have to do that standing across the street, where they are unlikely to collect very much money.

My sources tell me that Landau’s is doing this because it wants charity that would have otherwise gone to the beggars to given to the synagogue instead.

However, the Torah states that we should not exclude the beggars:

“If there is among you a needy man, one of your brothers…you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand from your needy brother. Instead, you shall surely open your hand for him…” Devarim 15:7-8.

The Chofetz Chaim in his Sefer HaMitzvot HaKatzer (Lo Ta’aseh # 62) notes that this commandment is in force everywhere at all times for both men and women, and that is the accepted halakha – except, apparently by Rabbi Landau, his gabbaim and his hasidim.

Comments

[Howard Frank]

Howard Frank was a beggar, and he was last seen alive leaving Landau’s shul on E. 9th near Avenue L in Brooklyn, a favorite begging spot, at about 10:30 pm Wednesday, June 27th.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2012/07/the-life-and-death-of-howard-frank-567.html

[Relocate]

Time to move on to the next shul.

[Dave]

You idiot !!! You have no idea what you are talking about
This place that they are allowed to stand all year is used for a succa
it is also used to sell hoshanos . There is no room to move if you have a succah there

[Shmarya]

You idiot !!! You have no idea what you are talking about
This place that they are allowed to stand all year is used for a succa
it is also used to sell hoshanos . There is no room to move if you have a succah there

Posted by: Dave | September 21, 2012 at 06:14 AM

And the reason why beggars were banned from that area days before the sukkah is built and hoshanot will be sold?

And thoughts, you cretinous moron?

[Simpsons fan]

Has it ever occurred to you that some beggars can be a bother, like when they interrupt tefillos with their sob stories and push past mispallelim in the middle of amidah? Do these meshulachim have the right to disrupt prayer?

In my shul, we have a thing called the Rabbi's Fund- shul members give to the Rabbi, beggars go to the rabbi, he distributes the funds to the beggars, and the members trust the rabbi to fairly distribute the funds.

[Deri]

I'm sorry, Shmarya, I was part the Gaboim who threw you out. You were touching all the pieces of cake and biting into them, and then threw them back into the clean plate. You were drinking wildly from many cups and threw them right back between the clean ones. Try to have some self control.

[Shmarya]

I'm sorry, Shmarya, I was part the Gaboim who threw you out. You were touching all the pieces of cake and biting into them, and then threw them back into the clean plate. You were drinking wildly from many cups and threw them right back between the clean ones. Try to have some self control.

Posted by: Deri | September 21, 2012 at 08:53 AM

Funny.

Except I don't live in New York or on the East Coast, and I haven't been in Brooklyn in at least a decade.

[Apikorus al ha'esh]

Shmarya, you're a total douche. If a beggar had harrassed a frum woman, you'd be blasting the pushy and obnoxious beggars and the society that created them. If Laundau's the bad guy and the poor, innocent, starving beggars are the underdogs, you'll champion them. Everybody who's spent more than 10 minutes in Brooklyn knows the beggars are 1. not civil or polite or 'menchlich' and 2. not necessarily legitimate representatives of legitimate charities, or legitimately poor. I applaud Veretzky for kicking their mangy asses out, and I hope other shuls do the same. They're a scourge.

[Red Sox Fan]

My experience in Landau's has been that they allow beggars to collect in the shul during the morning services, but not during the afternoon and evening prayers.

[jancsipista]

Apikorus al ha'esh--Here i agree with you 100 per cent i know the beggars first hand they are tottaly out of control here in bp come in the morning shahres they even go to the bal tifilah the rabbi has to stop them and they ring my bell at all hours most they are hassidim who are well of they definitly arent innocent starving beggars its a pass time for them takingus all for fools thats how i see them here in bp.

[Shmarya]

Apikorus al ha'esh--Here i agree with you 100 per cent i know the beggars first hand they are tottaly out of control here in bp come in the morning shahres they even go to the bal tifilah the rabbi has to stop them and they ring my bell at all hours most they are hassidim who are well of they definitly arent innocent starving beggars its a pass time for them takingus all for fools thats how i see them here in bp.

Posted by: jancsipista | September 21, 2012 at 09:30 AM

Those are the hasidic beggars who ARE allowed to collect inside Landau's.

It's the poor non-hasidic beggars who are kept outside and across the street.

[PrettyBoyFloyd]

Shmarya obviously doesn't daven in a shul. But you gotta admire his self righteous indignation on behalf of these beggars. But oh the irony, these are the same Hareidi 'scum' from Israel that he attacks daily for not working and providing for their families and being parasites, yet here he faults the Shul for trying to keep some order in a hectic place.
I think I'm knocking on wood, I'll stop here.

[jancsibacsi]

Shmarya --I see dozens of poor ones begging on 13 th avenue here in bp they even have chairs on what to sit on all day as passerbys go they just strech their arms its not a problem for poor people to make some money, but to go into shuls and places where people are busy buying should definitly not be allowed after davening or after buying there you should be allowed maintaining a distance how to determine that i dont know .

[jancsibacsi]

I think alot of the hassidishe beggars are just taking advantage and making a mockery out of the whole begging situation alot of times they are so disturbibng that i d like to punch them out i am so angry at them taking us all for fools i stoped giving to them i only give to whom i see is a genuione poor person its easy to tell.

[God is not amused]

My. my my, how far all of you are from God. Don't you know that tzeddakah is PRAY and music to Gods ear. Your rote prayers and swinging does nothing. If it did we humans would be in such deep shit., would we now.
Are some of them(beggars) rude and obnoxious? hell yeah. Arrogance and self-entitlement got them where they are in the first place. But, YOU Hassidim you claim to pray 24/7 to maintain a pure heart/soul should know better than anyone else that;patience is a virtue and should have a whole lot of it with all that malingering in shul 24/7. By now you should also know that rote pray =0 and true pray is Tikkun Olam in which you have to get your hand dirty and right the wrongs of these humans lives, as opposed to distance yourselves in disgust. Come folks, that is the essence of true Judaism. Now I am not claiming I have all this. Nor do I daven 24/7 by rote. But I understand the essence of true prayer and what it takes to go home.
Prettyboyfloyd/That is right the Haredi are scum.
1) They steal via chicanery, other peoples money.
2) They degrade women, whom God loves also.
3) They bring humans into the world to misery/pverty
and deprive them of true self-determination of poptential. GOD despises the desecration of his innocent children!
4) Non-Producers for the benefit of the community.
Ted Turner calls people like these: "Useless eaters."
5) They are aggressively vicious.
6) They make life hell for Israelis(as though they don't have enough from those around them. God love them)
7) They make life hell for those in NYS. Every community next to them COMPLAINS about them.
8) They claim poverty yet they ARE filthy rich.(all in the hands of one control freak)

None of those attributes are of the children of God.
It is all the attributes of the adversary.

They are a cult from hell. By chicanery and artifice, they have found their fellow compatriots from hell who happen to be politicians who enable them to steal others rescources to support their gluttonous ways; while those that were producers and fell on hard times THEY TURN AWAY FROM THEIR TABLE.
I got news for them. Your davening means nothing. Your life is a waste. You are a waste.
You say you exist to pray for Jews? Right. but, yet you turn the begging Jews away? God will SPIT YOU OUT. said HE. Go look it up.

[God is not amused]

So, George Soros and his ilk rounded up the Hungarian Jews. Some were lucky and fled the city,safely. After the war, my grandfather, walked by a huddled human sitting dead in the middle of the street with just a hand out from under the mass of black clothing. He gave the person a coin. The person lifted her head to say thank you. It was his mother.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

many of the beggars ought to be thrown out. most disturb services, right in the middle of shmona esre.
many insult worshipers. I have no idea what happens in that particular shul. better throw them out and donate diectly to charities.

[Apostate]

The hasids get handouts from the government for not working. The beggars are after handouts from hasids because they're not working. And the difference is...?

One group does it inside, the other outside.

[Apikorus al ha'esh]

Again, Shmarya, you're creating nonexistent distinctions. The "non-hasidic" beggars you're going to rescue from Landau's mistreatment are (for the most part) Russian gentiles who've learned a few words of yiddish and parrot them to whomever will give them a dollar.

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Shmarya, your own article states that this policy is done during the time of Succos. Someone commented that this is done to build a sukkah. I believe that most shuld build their sukkahs this week. That would make sense.

After sukkos, all the beggars will be able to go back and sit by the front door again, and harass every person who steps through the door. (And curse those who don't give - it's amazing how people put up with the beggars who curse you when you don't give.)

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

Is there no one on this blog who agrees with Shmarya that Landau's shouldn't be allowed to build their sukkah outside their front door, so that the beggars should be able to sit by the front door instead, while they harass all the shul attendees (and curse those who don't give)?

Come on, somebody - anybody - please agree with Shmarya. Jeff, maybe you'll agree with Shmarya?

[baba boooey]

Baba booooooooey

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

As a regular in Landau's, I think I know what's going on. The Orthodox, Chasidic or not, are allowed to solicit inside the shul, while others have to stay outside. There are obviously non-Chasidic collectors w(no beard, modern dress, etc.)ho come through the shul, so it's not limited to chasidim. As for the others, they have more leeway than in any other shul in the area. Also, the succah is going up now, there are major repairs to the mikvah, and there are other matters that require the area in front of the shul to be cleared. Shmarya, this is one time you are wrong.

[Jeff]

Jeff, maybe you'll agree with Shmarya?

I generally do. I don't know anything about this situation - perhaps there's no other place to put the sukkah - but my understanding of our tradition has always been that the rights of a person in need take precedence.

[dh]

See, this is a difference between Jews and Gentiles. Gentiles envelope the beggars in complete programs that feed, clothe, lodge, counsel, refer and ready for employ. Where I live, where the Jewish population is the fastest growing in the continental US and shuls abound, there is only the once yearly feeding of the poor in the parking lot on xmas day by a reform temple.

[Donate]

Jeff, maybe you'll agree with Shmarya?

I generally do. I don't know anything about this situation - perhaps there's no other place to put the sukkah - but my understanding of our tradition has always been that the rights of a person in need take precedence.

Posted by: Jeff | September 21, 2012 at 01:22 PM

I think we should put our collective money where our mouth is and hold a collection for these displaced beggars.

It's the only right thing to do.

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

God is not amused,I'm of Hungarian origin too and have always heard that Soros was a simple 17 year old who got enrolled in a forced labour battalion in Budapest(like my father)and then he went to study in London;so I doubt he 'rounded up Hungarian Jewry'....

[rebitzman]

I think it's fair to point out that the beggars congregate near this shul because it's proven effective - they tend to not waste their time with people who stiff them regularly.

Further - while we DO have the needy come into our synagogue regularly and have resources for them as we are able, we would also have an issue with them walking in and interrupting a service.

This one sounds like all the facts aren't there for us to see......... and I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt this time.

[dh]

Oh mine Got in Heaven!! They interrupt services?? That sounds so Chabady and how they feel about the Friendship Circle subjects. Why don't we hear these complaints from churches?

Surely Hashem wouldn't want the poor or feeble interrupting services.

[Just Me]

My relative is a gabbai at Landou's shul. The rav banned the beggars from inside the shul because many of them made a mess of the coffee room and other areas. Many of them aren't even Jewish. One boasted to my friend that he collects money at the shul and gives it to his church. If you go there, you can see there are plenty of beggars outside. R' Landou is a very good person. People are entitled to daven without being harassed and the rav is allowed to eject people who make a mess.

[dh]

How are they harrassing the righteous davening? Oh, yeah, I forgot. They left the coffee room messy.

[Rebitzman]

@dh

Unless they are bleeding, having a heart attack or are in some other way in immediate danger, I think their odds of getting what they want from me in terms of tdzedakah will go up exponentially if they wait the 20 minutes for me to finish davening - yes.

That's not me being "righteous" - that's me saying that if someone, anyone wants me to show them respect, their best first step is to extend respect.

[dh]

Tell them that. The poor, like dogs, can be trained.

[Shmarya]

I think it's fair to point out that the beggars congregate near this shul because it's proven effective - they tend to not waste their time with people who stiff them regularly.

Further - while we DO have the needy come into our synagogue regularly and have resources for them as we are able, we would also have an issue with them walking in and interrupting a service.

This one sounds like all the facts aren't there for us to see......... and I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt this time.

Posted by: rebitzman | September 21, 2012 at 02:55 PM

Actually, if you check the halakhot of this you'll see that you're wrong.

You have NO halakhic right to turn away a poor person.

You're praying and you don't want to be bothered? It interrupts your "quiet time" with God?

Tough crap.

Who do you think sent that beggar to you?

If you believe in the God you're "communing" with, the answer should be clear to you – God did.

And not surprisingly, Jewish moral teachings, especially hasidic moral teaching, are full of stories based on that concept.

Past that, you have a simple choice:

1. Follow the halakha and stop harassing the beggars.

2. Do what is comfortable for you.

That's the same choice you have when you're hungry on Yom Kippur – 1. Follow the halakha and keep fasting or 2. Do what is comfortable and sneak off and eat something.

The same God that wants you to fast on Yom Kippur wants you to help the beggar, and forbids you from turning that beggar away empty-handed.

So why is this not obvious to you?

Because people don't view the poor as messengers sent by God, and they don't view themselves as having any special responsibility to care for them.

That's why the Torah specifically adds the negative command, the Thou Shalt Not, to the positive mitzvah to help the poor:

"…You shall not harden your heart or shut your hand from your needy brother. Instead, you shall surely open your hand for him…” Devarim 15:7-8."

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

Shemaryah,I am serious now:why don't you become a rabbi(of course in Reform or Masorti Judaism)? You have knowledge and a sound ethical and moral character;you'd score fairly well!Hasn't this idea ever crossed your mind?

[Rebitzman]

@Shmarya

Yeah - tough crap

My house - my rules.

The shul is not public ground. People have as much right to walk into the sanctuary and beg as they do to walk into my kitchen. If someone interrupts me at ANY task - he'll probably get a quarter if what he'll get if he waits until I am done.

That is common courtesy.

My friend, You hit more homers than you you do whiff.

Bur This one's a whiff.

[Shmarya]

…My house - my rules.

The shul is not public ground. People have as much right to walk into the sanctuary and beg as they do to walk into my kitchen. If someone interrupts me at ANY task - he'll probably get a quarter if what he'll get if he waits until I am done.…

Posted by: Rebitzman | September 21, 2012 at 05:58 PM

You are 100% wrong.

Look in the Shulkhan Arukh.

And a shul is not your house. See the Shulkan Arukh on that issue, as well.

[BaltimoreYid]

I was a hardcore Agudahnik at one time. The beggars would pile into Agudah Park Heights every Shacharis, Mincha & Maariv. I gave everyone of them something. Yes they did interrupt my davening but my thought was "must suck to be them." Without going onto a tangent about why I'm no longer frum I'll simply say I still give, only to registered charities. Must suck to be them.

[shimon from jerusalem]

VERY INTERESTING!!!!
I WAS DAVENING IN LANDAU'S SGHUL JUST A WEEK BEFORE ROSH HAHANNA AND WAS APPROACHED OOPENLY SDURING DAVENING FOR ZEDAKA OTHER THAN THE SHUL GABBOIM>SHARYA FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS NOT BEEN IN BROOKLYN FOR A DECADE AS YOU STATE_YOU REALLY HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION THAT IS FALSE.LANDAU'S SHUL IS A REAL MOKOM TORAH KNOWN FOR ITS ZEDAKA VOCHESED>
SHIMON FROM JERUSALEM

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Rebitzman, I agree with you.

Yeah, we all know about what the Torah says about charity, the needy, etc., and we all want to help the less fortunate.
The realities of how it plays out in shuls is another story. Aggressive panhandlers- and we can argue about how aggressive is too aggressive- make the shul into something I don't want it to be.

I agree with 'Simpsons fan | September 21, 2012 at 06:41 AM'. Tzedakah for the panhandlers ought to go to a central pool administered by the rabbi or his designee, and that person should come up with some equitable way of distributing the money and keeping track of who gets what.

I just don't like going to one of these Brooklyn shuls where it's a nonstop parade of beggars who get up close in your face, and don't want to walk away, and as soon as you do give them something, the other panhandlers see you're an easy mark, so they won't let you be. And if you give them less then at least 50 cents, then give you a nasty look and stay in front of you until you give them more. Torah, Shmorah, I don't like it.

[Jeff]

I just don't like going to one of these Brooklyn shuls where it's a nonstop parade of beggars who get up close in your face, and don't want to walk away, and as soon as you do give them something, the other panhandlers see you're an easy mark, so they won't let you be. And if you give them less then at least 50 cents, then give you a nasty look and stay in front of you until you give them more. Torah, Shmorah, I don't like it.

Is that really what it's like?

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Jeff, it's like feeding a stray cat.

[Wigmore]

"You have NO halakhic right to turn away a poor person."

Surely this is not absolute. A bold statement like this makes it seem like "Y'hareig v'al ya'avor," which it isn't.

What if I have no cash with me? Am I obliged to go to an ATM? That's foolish.

Similarly, there are ten beggars at hand. Do I have to give all ten or is nine enough? What if I am poor myself?

An response to this question that actually discusses Halacha and Jewish philosophy would be appreciate. A response that ridicules me or my intellect would speak more about one posting it than me

[Wigmore]

I just don't like going to one of these Brooklyn shuls where it's a nonstop parade of beggars who get up close in your face, and don't want to walk away, and as soon as you do give them something, the other panhandlers see you're an easy mark, so they won't let you be. And if you give them less then at least 50 cents, then give you a nasty look and stay in front of you until you give them more. Torah, Shmorah, I don't like it.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar | September 22, 2012 at 07:28 PM

WSC, on 13th Avenue and 53rd Street in Borough Park is the Shomer Shabbos shul which is another nonstop minyan establishment. What really pissed me off was when I was saying kaddish on a yahrzeit and some douchebag schnorrer interrupted my kaddish to stick his hand in my face.

Wonder what Halacha says about that.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Wigmore | September 22, 2012 at 10:22 PM

No, you don't have to risk your life to give a coin to a beggar.

But barring a clear risk to life, you have to give him something, unless you have nothing to give him. In the latter case, you still have to be nice to him, wish him well and try make him feel better.

You can't intentionally go to shul with no cash so you can avoid giving tzedaka to beggars.

If there are many beggars and you don't know which one needs it the most (or the less), you give each what you can – a dime, a quarter, whatever. If one of them doesn't like that and bitches at you for it, tell him you're sorry but you're not doing well financially now and this is all you can give.

But the bottom line is, if you don't like seeing poor people, raise money to help them become non-poor. Work to make government help for the poor better. But don't ban beggars or mistreat them.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Shmarya 10:53, I heard they are building a shul in Fantasy Land.

That will be the perfect place to institute your recommendations.

You really, really, need to visit Brooklyn again to see the realities of what's going on.

When I go to one of these shuls, I put a buck or two into a pushka for some recognized establishment or cause, such as Hatzoloh.

[spacedout BT]

The head gabbai at R. Landau's shul is R. Yeedle- one of the finest Jews on earth today.This man is totally incapable of being mean so you are totally wrong here. I have on occasion been accosted by collectors even while davening chazaras ha shatz from the amud. Once a collector told me the dollar I gave him wasn't enough. Collectors come to my shul in cars that are newer and nicer than mine. Shmarya, did you know there are mosdos that give sumptuous, free meals in both Midwood and Boro Park? Perhaps you would like to volunteer and work there as many of us already have.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar | September 22, 2012 at 11:11 PM

I'm well aware of what it's like.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: spacedout BT | September 22, 2012 at 11:12 PM

Please.

Your "nice" rabbi excludes beggars who are not part of his (or a closely related) hasidic community.

[Shmarya]

…Shmarya, did you know there are mosdos that give sumptuous, free meals in both Midwood and Boro Park? Perhaps you would like to volunteer and work there as many of us already have.

Posted by: spacedout BT | September 22, 2012 at 11:12 PM

Did you know that the food they serve is mostly paid for with non-haredi money?

[Wigmore]

Shmarya,

Please note my post that I see time stamped here in EDT land as "September 22, 2012 at 10:26 PM" and tell me your Halachik view of the "beggar" who interrupts the person in the middle of kaddish. I am sure I am not the only person to whom this has happened.

[spacedout BT]

Shmarya- If R. Yeadle is Chasidish then I'm Queen Vashti. He learned at Zichron Meilach in E. Flatbush and his brothers learned in Mir. The middle brother Mendie was brutally murdered in Newark 23 years ago. Are you even familiar with the funding setup for the mosdos (B'Saiva?) that provide free meals?

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Wigmore | September 22, 2012 at 11:44 PM

The beggar is wrong and that may be a reason to ban that particular beggar. But you still give him something.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: spacedout BT | September 22, 2012 at 11:45 PM

Okay. Why don't you "prove" to all of us that you know what you're talking about. List the sources.

[spacedout BT]

OK-You want it-- you got it. B'Saiva is funded mostly by private sponsors- individuals, families and groups. One of them was my own son-in-law who also volunteers regularly, including the celebrity songster Lipa as a regular. I think you are more familiar with Crown Heights and BP than Midwood (although I'm a CH Hadar ha Torah guy from before your time)

[Wigmore]

Posted by: Wigmore | September 22, 2012 at 11:44 PM

The beggar is wrong and that may be a reason to ban that particular beggar. But you still give him something.

You have cited numerous sources for your views about the obligation of giving Tzedakah. In this case, what does Halacha say about the guy interrupting my kaddish? What is his sin? What is his punishment?

[Shmarya]

Posted by: spacedout BT | September 22, 2012 at 11:57 PM

Do they get food from the Met Council? Food from the food shelf network?

[Shmarya]

You have cited numerous sources for your views about the obligation of giving Tzedakah. In this case, what does Halacha say about the guy interrupting my kaddish? What is his sin? What is his punishment?

Posted by: Wigmore | September 23, 2012 at 12:03 AM

That God will sort it all out, not man.

[spacedout BT]

Bubbaleh, Coney Island Ave is the Kosher food capital of the world. Pomegranate and Glatt Mart throw out more food than Met Councils and food pantries combined.

[shimon from jerusalem]

I usually don't weite to these forums but when I see so many ugly statements about a place like Landau's shul,I feelIhave to.
Yiddle ,chassidish or not is a very fine person.
Landau's is full of people who go around for zedaka .maybe there are or should be some rules to prevent undue interrutpions but I once heard that when people pcomplain about when or where to give zedaka ,they usually don't give zedaka any whereor at any time.
I think that shmarya should maybe think about this accusation against the shul and in the spirit of Rosh hasahha and yom kippur,apologize

[Shmarya]

Bubbaleh, Coney Island Ave is the Kosher food capital of the world. Pomegranate and Glatt Mart throw out more food than Met Councils and food pantries combined.

Posted by: spacedout BT | September 23, 2012 at 12:18 AM

Sigh.

Do try to think for a moment.

You can't meal plan for dozens or hundreds of people based on day-to-day remnant food.

There's a base meal being served with remnant food to compliment it.

[Shmarya]

VERY INTERESTING!!!!
I WAS DAVENING IN LANDAU'S SGHUL JUST A WEEK BEFORE ROSH HAHANNA AND WAS APPROACHED OOPENLY SDURING DAVENING FOR ZEDAKA OTHER THAN THE SHUL GABBOIM>SHARYA FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS NOT BEEN IN BROOKLYN FOR A DECADE AS YOU STATE_YOU REALLY HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION THAT IS FALSE.LANDAU'S SHUL IS A REAL MOKOM TORAH KNOWN FOR ITS ZEDAKA VOCHESED>
SHIMON FROM JERUSALEM

Posted by: shimon from jerusalem | September 22, 2012 at 02:22 PM

…I think that shmarya should maybe think about this accusation against the shul and in the spirit of Rosh hasahha and yom kippur,apologize

Posted by: shimon from jerusalem | September 23, 2012 at 12:35 AM

Do you read? Do you comprehend?

Here's what I wrote:I’m told that this ban applies to all beggars who are not part of Landau’s clique.

But fellow hasidim approved by Rabbi Landau or the gabbaim are allegedly allowed to collect charity inside all year long and now, during the autumn holidays, as well. They can drink coffee there and eat cake, when it’s available.

But the beggars who are not part of Rabbi Landau’s clique, or who are not haredi enough or Orthodox enough, have to stand outside – and for the month surrounding the autumn Jewish holidays. they have to do that standing across the street, where they are unlikely to collect very much money.

[Sol]

I think Landaus is dead wrong for not doing it a long time ago!! Lets hope the wedding halls follow in Landau's ways!!

[shimon from jerusalem]

YES SHMARYA I READ
THE PEOPLE WHO ASKEDME FORZEDAKA WERE NOT CHAREDIVERY MUCH>I SAW_YOU HEARD!THE TALMUD SAYS THERE IS NO COMPARISON BETWEEN HEARING AND SEEING

AYN DOMEH RIYA LESHEMIYA.
I HOPE I HAVE NOT INSULTED YOUTHE WAY YOU SO APTLY AND HABITUALLY DID!!!

[Rebitzman]

It is propitious to give charity before and after praying. Jewish beggars know this and know to congregate where the getting is good. It's why there are so many of them at this particular shul - why there are armies of them at the kotel. The rabbis that supervise the area also know this and it is why they make little if any effort to discourage them from being there - they feel the beggars are providing the means to do a mitzvah before prayer - and the think that by so doing you have a greater chance that your prayers will be heard.

However, the primary rule at the kotel is that you (anyone) are not allowed to disturb the prayers of others. Ergo, your cell must be off, your wife must be dressed modestly, you are not allowed to do anything provocative (like, God forbid - pray with a scroll if you're female), AND the beggars are now required to get you on the way to, or the walk away from prayer. They are not allowed to approach you if you are davening. While this rule has gone through times of being ignored, it is currently being enforced(oddly, as much by the beggars themselves as the authorities. Seems beggars don't like cheaters), if standards at the kotel can be (and supported by rabbinic authority) no preying while they pray - I feel comfortable having the same standard at my shul.

Shmarya, you know me well enough by now to know that if given a genuine citation I will go look it up. Can you be more specific than Shulcan Aruch?

You ARE correct as to the hallachah of giving - IF asked, there is no hallachic way to say "no".

[I can't think of a name yet]

Only the ladies stay outside. Men come in and collect and harass everyone. Even nonhassidic men come in to collect. Only the ladies stay outside. Shmarya your secret source is so wrong on this, will you admit?

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

Shmarya:

I'm afraid you were told wrong. Any shomer shabbos man can collect in the shul (as well as grab a piece of cake or cup of coffee) all during the year. They don't need to be part of "Rabbi Landau's clique." By the way, there are three Landau brothers, and two of them are heavily involved operating the shul. This applies to morning prayers, only. In the afternoon and evening, no one is allowed to collect inside the shul.

Also, men have been thrown out of shul for harrassing daveners; nearly all of those thrown out have been chasidim or other chareidim in traditional dress. (I've been tempted to take a knife to some of them myself.)

And yes, the beggars outside have been asked to stay across the street at this time, given all the extra foot traffic going in and out of the shul.

I was wrong about the succah going up now; I saw building materials outside and thought that was what it was. Now the materials are gone. However, mikva repairs are continuing.

Shmarya, you should know that I have never attacked you on your facts unless I thought I had evidence you were wrong. I have never attacked your motives or your character. I don't hide who I am. You are entitled to argue that they are wrong to push the schnorrers across the street this time of the year (you might feel differently if you went in there for mincha or maariv). But please, you've been informed wrong on several facts.

[Lawrence M. Reisman]

One more thing. A beggar can time his approach in such a way that he causes as little disturbance to the davener as possible. The difference between interrupting someone as he is putting on tallis or tefillin (my pet peeve) and not doing so is a minute or two. The difference between interrupting krias shema and not is five or ten minutes at most. Someone can hold out his hand or approach; what he wants is obvious. Or he can talk in your ear (how about during krias haTorah) or push up against you.

I've seen all kinds in that shul, and give nearly every man who comes in. But bad manners, and unnecessary bad manners at that, are a sign that the person has no regard for my davening or my observance of mitzvos. And to that, I object.

[mendel]

Why doesn't landaus shul do what was done in 770. The gabbai R Kievman charges $5 per shnorrer per day. Than they can do whatever they want to.

Shmarya: Just asking!!!1
Ehen was the last time you davened (770 we know) let alone at landau's????????

[Moishe Tauber]

Landau's shul is a bastion of tefilah and chessed. It is the most wonderful kehila in the flatbush community. It is clean, and offers a great product to the whole community, whether it be davening, coffee cake, Shaleshidus shiurim or chessed programs that they provide for the community.
The Rabbi there is a wonderful person. He and his family have done great things for the community back to when the grandfather Rabbi Yechezkel Shraga was rabbi some 15 years ago.
About those who sit outside the shul and collect charity, Most of those are women. There is no place for women in an all male shul during the day, as our shuls have mechitzas, and there are no women praying there during the day. They are free to sit outside and collect charity. That crowd comes every day, sits outside, and collects. There are also a few men who join them and sit outside. I am not sure that there is an official rule posted, and perhaps there should be. Those who collect inside shul generally come weekly or monthly and are respectful. They don't collect during shema and shemona esrai. I am pretty sure that any man who would come in and follow those guidelines wouldn't be shunned.

[ultra haredi lite]

Lechvod HaGaon Moreinu HaRav Shmarya Shlita,
Question: What is the halacha if a beggar sticks out his hand to me while I am praying Shmoneh Esrei, must I interrupt my prayers and give him a donation, may I interrupt my prayers and give him a donation, or am I required to continue praying and give him a donation upon my conclusion of the Shmoneh Esrei?

[dh]

And when it is frosty, wet, snowing, the wretched women are still outside? Good. That's where they belong.

I'm sorry. I'm not getting it. They are a means for a mitzvah so your prayers will more likely be heard. Phew. At least you get something out of it. Do you think that if you are interrupted by the poverty stricken your prayers will be heard less or is it really just a pain in the rear end? Are they interrupting Gd or you?

This is symbolic and illuminating for me in so many ways. Those disgusting putrid foul vile males are an important tool in this society to be utilized to lift us clean folk up.

[Apostate]

I'm sure Moishe Tauber means the women are welcome inside to serve the food and clean up after the men. Then they should remove themselves to the street and beg the public for gelt to support the temple.

Well, at least they're putting in an honest day's work.

[spacedout BT]

This can go on and on but even Shmarya will have to admit that every shul has to have boundaries about how collectors can go about their business without disrupting the davening and if you can't khop this -then go try being a shul gabbai, even for one month.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: spacedout BT | September 23, 2012 at 08:21 PM

The fear is that someone will need help immediately but will be pushed off by gabbaim, etc.

There's a famous story about one such case. A poor man approached a rabbi for help. The rabbi was learning or davening and ignored the poor man, who then dropped dead from hunger.

The point is that human, physical, emergency needs (and many human, physical non-emergency needs, too) trump davening and learning.

Once you understand that, you won't care so much about disruptions from beggars.

The problem is that many people just don't understand that concept, and they view davening and learning as more important.

God doesn't say that when you learn Torah or daven, you are doing something for God, partnering with him to complete part of creation, etc. He doesn't care about your learning per say or your davening at all. (Ask yourself why it was that at the time of the Mishna, almost no one davened 3x per day – even rabbis; many people only davened [in whatever form that actually took] on Shabbos; some only davened one per month.

But every one of those people knew that there was a Biblical command to help the poor that was in effect every day, all the time.)

But He does say that He has special care for the poor, and that he wants us to help him by helping those poor.

[ultra haredi lite]

Pure ingorance. Laughable. Actually sad.

[Apikorus al ha'esh]

Shmarya - you don't have to give "everyone who stretches out his hand" except on Purim. Look it up. Any other day, you're entitled to question the beggar's bona fides or -- heaven forbid -- go with your gut and NOT give.

And while we're on the subject: When a shnorrer comes to my house and wants money for a yeshiva or a cause that I feel is deterimental to its adherents and to Orthodoxy and to the world in general, I don't give him any money.

[Red Sox Fan]

And what about when it's a guy who is perfectly capable of working, but decides he would rather schnorr because it's more lucrative (not to mention that they probably don't pay taxes, and since everything is off the books they can be on every government program known to man)? I would rather help someone who works four jobs and struggles to make ends meet than a freeloader.

You talk about halacha - what about the halachos of going to work? Or not relying on the tzibbur for money unless absolutely necessary?

Shmarya, you know I'm a fan, but you're not being fair.

[Shmarya]

You talk about halacha - what about the halachos of going to work? Or not relying on the tzibbur for money unless absolutely necessary?

Shmarya, you know I'm a fan, but you're not being fair.

Posted by: Red Sox Fan | September 24, 2012 at 02:18 PM

No. I'm being fair.

People who don't really need tzedaka but who take it are sinning, and anyone who is discovered to be a fraud should be banned.

But we don't penalize the poor because some people masquerade as poor people in order to steal.

And halakha is very clear about this.

As for you, if a person presenting himself as poor asks your money, give it – unless you have clear proof he's a thief.