Agudah To Sue City Over Penis Sucking Ritual

The haredi umbrella organization Agudath Israel of America intends to sue New York City if the city’s Board of Health passes a proposed law that would require mohels to get informed consent from parents of infants who will undergo metztizah b’peh (MBP), the direct mouth-too-bleeding penis suction done by mohels immediately after removing the baby’s foreskin.

 

Agudah To Sue City Over Penis Sucking Ritual
Shmarya Rosenberg • FailedMessiah.com

Writing in the Jewish Week, Hella Winston exclusively reports that the haredi umbrella organization Agudath Israel of America intends to sue New York City if the city’s Board of Health passes a proposed law that would require mohels to get informed consent from parents of infants who will undergo metztizah b’peh (MBP), the direct mouth-too-bleeding penis suction done by mohels immediately after removing the baby’s foreskin.

The proposed informed consent document explains the risks of MBP to parents – risks that include infection with the herpes virus, brain damage and death.

Agudah is reportedly trying to find a New York law firm to work pro bono or on “a reduced rate basis” to bring “a lawsuit against the City of New York to prevent the City from issuing a regulation that would require written parental consent for an aspect of bris milah (‘metzitzah b’peh’).”

“The lawsuit would argue that this regulation is unconstitutional on the grounds that it interferes with both freedom of religion and freedom of speech (the latter, because it requires the mohel to distribute certain information to parents.)”, an email, apparently sent by Agudah’s counsel Mordechai Biser reads. “We are concerned that if this regulation goes into effect the next step will be further regulation of bris milah,” Biser wrote.

Last week, Agudath Israel’s executive vice president, Rabbi David Zwiebel, wrote Mayor Michael Bloomberg and asked him to postpone the Board of Health vote scheduled for Thursday. In that letter, which was also signed by Agudah’s chairman Rabbi Gedaliah Weinberger, Zwiebel objected to language in city educational material that called on mohels to wear sterile gloves during the circumcision. “[M]any segments of the Jewish community follow a religious tradition that the mohel may not wear gloves when performing the bris,” Zwiebel wrote.

Winston reports that the mayor’s spokesperson, Samantha Levine, said that vote will likely proceed Thursday as planned.

“There is no safe way to perform oral suction on any open wound in a newborn” and noting that “[l]eading medical authorities have also identified these serious risks. Ultimately, the City’s highest obligation is to protect its children,” Levine wrote in an email to Winston. “Therefore,” she wrote, “it is important that parents know the risks associated with the practice.”

In a letter to Bloomberg dated yesterday, Dr. Jonathan Zenilman, chief of the Infectious Diseases Division at Johns Hopkins Bayview, professor of medicine and past president of American Sexually Transmitted Diseases Association, reportedly accused Agudath Israel of America of “doing a terrible disservice to the Jewish Community and the public at large…”

Zenilman wrote that:

…The Agudah’s letter ignores the scientific facts.

The clinical and epidemiological data are incontrovertible. Metzisa b’peh is a known and recognized risk factor for transmission of herpes. The NYCDOH study was published by the CDC in the official publication, Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report. Before being published, these studies go through multiple layers of rigorous statistical and epidemiological review, performed by highly experienced scientists uninvolved with the study.

In the infectious diseases community, there is no doubt that MBP carries risk. There is unanimous consensus among leaders in the herpes field and among leaders in the infectious diseases community who study these infections that MBP has been associated with HSV transmission.

The studies if anything, actually underestimate the risk, and represent only data that is obtained from New York, where the disease is reportable. A standard epidemiological concept is that reports of cases almost always are underestimates. Furthermore, there are very few places in the United States where neonatal herpes is reportable, and therefore data are not available from other communities where MBP may be widely practiced.

The Agudah’s letter suggests that even a low rate of MBP-related HSV infections (estimated at 1/4098) is acceptable. The complications of neonatal herpes are severe and include death, critical illness, delayed cognitive development and neurological complications. This acceptance of an avoidable risk, even when low, contradicts any applicable modern standard of care, modern public health practice, and can even be considered as unethical.

The Agudah’s objective is to clearly transmit the perception of doubt, and to use that doubt to impact public health policy. The Agudah’s position is irresponsible from the standpoint of children’s health, and supports a practice which puts children at risk.

The Agudah has framed their letter as a request to you to override the Health Department’s carefully considered policy position. Essentially, this is a request for political interference in public health practice, and political interference with a policy which has been based on careful science and has been focused on preventing a life threatening infection.

The Agudah and other Haredi publications has framed this as a “religious freedom” issue. Nothing can be further from the truth. When children’s health and safety is involved, the government does have a compelling interest and responsibility to regulate.

Related Post: Agudah Tells Mayor It Objects To Mohels Wearing Sterile Surgical Gloves.

Comments

[Chazal Qaeda]

Bloomberg to Agudah: Blow me

[danny]

100% chillul hashem

[Number's dont lie]

Shmarya,

Looks like you now agree that the documented risk factor is 0.0024 and if you subtract the risk factor of the general population its 0.0001 (that were infected due to MBP). The question now remains whether MBP is important enough that we should allow this small risk factor, similar to other voluntary procedures that have a similar risk factor and parents are allowed to put their children though it .

This will be a very interesting case Agudah stands a chance of winning in court.

[flat earth]

Bloomberg to Agudah: Blow me

ha!

[rebitzman]

@Number's dont lie

Actually, I think the burden will be on Agudah to show how getting a consent form signed in any way shape or form impacts religious freedom.

THAT is the key issue and a leap that I don't think Evel Knievel could make.

The numbers may not lie - but in this case thay are in no way relevant.

[The Nudnik]

Is the letter from Dr. Zenilman to Mayor Bloomberg available online?

[Shmarya]

Is the letter from Dr. Zenilman to Mayor Bloomberg available online?

Posted by: The Nudnik | September 11, 2012 at 12:37 PM

No.

[What The What?]

That's the best headline ever. NY Post worthy.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya,

Looks like you now agree that the documented risk factor is 0.0024 and if you subtract the risk factor of the general population its 0.0001 (that were infected due to MBP). The question now remains whether MBP is important enough that we should allow this small risk factor, similar to other voluntary procedures that have a similar risk factor and parents are allowed to put their children though it .

This will be a very interesting case Agudah stands a chance of winning in court.

Posted by: Number's dont lie | September 11, 2012 at 12:15 PM

I see your reading comprehension skills are still at the sub-kindergarten level, as is your intellect.

[Ess]

>Actually, I think the burden will be on Agudah to show how getting a consent form signed in any way shape or form impacts religious freedom.

Absolutely. Agudah has been telling the frum community that they are really worried that this is a wedge into governmental interference; even they don't believe that getting parents to sign a consent form - because they can, you know, consent - actually interferes with freedom of religion. They are worried about what comes next, or in five steps. As far as I know, the slippery slope is not a valid argument for something being unconstitutional.

[jancsibacsi]

Number's dont lie --You really really dont get it, a baby has no say in all this i am sure if the baby would be able to speak would curse the mohel besides this mbp is so repugnant no sane person can accept this procedure its vile, disgusting and if for 1 minute you thing its ok then to are stupid grownups like to play god with helpless children .

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

God bless mayor Bloomberg for having the courage to stand up to the Agudah machine and stand for saving Jewish babies' life.

[Jeff]

Agudah is reportedly trying to find a New York law firm to work pro bono or on “a reduced rate basis” to bring “a lawsuit against the City of New York to prevent the City from issuing a regulation that would require written parental consent for an aspect of bris milah (‘metzitzah b’peh’).”

What, Nat Lewin isn't available?

[Jeff]

delayed cognitive development

Well, that explains much.

[Jeff]

Posted by: Number's dont lie

Numbers don't lie, but you do. You don't really care about figures. If the overwhelming majority of babies died of illnesses contracted as a result of MBP, and if you had incontrovertible proof of it, it wouldn't make one whit of difference to you. Your rebbe told you it's the word of God, you believe it and that settles it. All that really matters to you is spending eternity in Gan Eden. Anything that has the slightest potential of interfering with that is the enemy, and must be gotten out of the way as quickly as possible.

That's the reason you're here. If you really believed Shmarya to be wrong, you wouldn't bother with him. The truth is that you're terrified he may be right, and you're trying desperately to convince yourself he isn't.

[Garnel Ironheart]

> Agudah is reportedly trying to find a New York law firm to work pro bono or on “a reduced rate basis

Hah! Cheap Jews!

[jancsibacsi]

jeff- theese unthinking hareidim are terrified of thinking critically they are afraid that if they see relity they would go out of their mind since they were bought up in a tottal lie from birth till death you hit the mail on its head when you write he numbers dont lie is here because he trying desparatly to convince himself that shamrya is wrong

[dh]

They won't be able to sustain a cause of action. Someone needs to intervene so the court appoints a representative for the babies. The babies need voice.

Numbers, gei kocken.

[h. davidson]

'Number's dont lie --You really really dont get it, a baby has no say in all this"

Baby has no saying, when you conceive it, or decide to abort it, in which culture and religion to live in! to be smart or stupid, to be a boy or girl, when to talk or listen, wake up or go to sleep, etc. do you really get it now! jancsibacsi knuckle head!

[Devorah]

Agudah is reportedly trying to find a New York law firm to work pro bono or on “a reduced rate basis

Why don't they use their own attorneys instead of searching for a new law firm?

[dh]

h, don't procreate. Pinky swear??

[Lubavitchers are Christians]

jancsibacsi knuckle head!

Posted by: h. davidson | September 11, 2012 at 02:15 PM

You insult knucle heads.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

Agudah is reportedly trying to find a New York law firm to work pro bono or on “a reduced rate basis”

With all their money and connection to big donors why do they look for pro bono ?

[The Nudnik]

Letter was recently posted on VIN:
http://www.vosizneias.com/113391/2012/09/11/baltimore-md-top-u-s-infectious-diseases-physician-refutes-agudahs-assertions-on-mbp

[Alzheimer]

I forgot again, could you please tell me what MBP stands for?

[SkepticalYid]

Agudah might see this suit bite them in the ass. If they win, they just might force the state's hand. The next step would be to license all mohels and require the consent as a condition of licensure. Just like the licensing of any other health professional.

[DickSucker]

I forgot again, could you please tell me what MBP stands for?

Posted by: Alzheimer | September 11, 2012 at 03:01 PM

metztizah b’peh (MBP), the direct mouth-too-bleeding penis suction done by mohels immediately after removing the baby’s foreskin. It is believed that this is done as sexual gratification to the mohel as well as some perverse action to infect the child to make him feeble minded and pliable to hassi"dick" teachings.

[rebitzman]

@Dick........

Don't feed the trolls

[Deremes]

In addition to my questions on another thread:
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2012/09/the-history-of-metzitzah-bpeh-345.html#comments
which nobody was able to answer i have some more questions:

Is a doctor more qualified then an experienced mohel to perform a bris?

Does the Health dept in general put new regulations in other cases like in this case? meaning, eleven out of over forty thousand and some of the eleven are questionable?
Before the law of seat belts how many people got killed that the law had to be put in place?

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians
"Then again..... abortion"

"He was just saying that people who are against MPB but pro-abortion are hypocrites."

"Illinois state senator Barack Obama Voted to allow the doctor to kill a live baby if the baby survived an attempted abortion."

"We have no issues with president Obama for supporting the actual murder of a live child that was born after surviving an attempted abortion."

Well, this take care of your expected, rehearsed talking points on a MBP post, LaC. You are now free to contribute a related, intelligent rebuttal regarding the topic.

Posted by: h. davidson
"jancsibacsi knuckle head!"

Posted by: Lubavitchers are Christians
"You insult knucle heads."

Then again, maybe not... =/

[WoolSilkCotton]

The local newspapers, radio stations, and TV news will love this story.

Hasidic Penis Sucking Ritual.

[Phil]

One of these days the whole MBP issue is going to cross the Atlantic and these idiotic and dangerous agudah types are going to get bris milah period restricted in many countries. The hareidi types in Antwerp and London will lie down in the street to defend MBP and then we are all dead meat.

They are right though about the slippery slope argument. Just that they are the ones causing it.

And as for the cowardly RCA position, they should hide their heads in shame. Finally, these people had a golden opportunity to raise the flag of Modern Orthodoxy and they blew it.

[Bob Guthrie]

@Number's dont lie, Deremes, LaC et al.

*"It has never happened!".
*"Well, except for one documented, case,... It's very rare."
*"Only 11 in 40980!."
*"0.0024,... 0.0001,... Meh, is just a small risk factor."

*Okay then, chaps. Take the numbers of infant fatalities and organ damages due to MBP for the city New York city in the last 10 years (plus unreported cases).
*Now take the possible same records for other notable US metropolitan areas. Let's say 100.
*Now included 100 cities X10 years' data in every country in the North America continent.
*Add the same amount of cities per the last decade for Africa, Asia, Australia, Europe, and South America.
*6 continents+100 cities per half of the countries of each continent (reported MBP in North Korea?. I don't think so), X1 decade.

Got it?. Good.

*Now start going back in time every 10 years, omitting cities that will cease to be as centuries go backwards, but increase the damage and mortality rate as medical effectiveness degrades back in time.
*And finally combine the pertinent damage and mortality rate data for the, let's be economical, 1000 cities left, for each decade for the last 1200+ years (120 decades),...

"...Just a small risk factor..." just became quite irrelevant, chaps.

...Now, justify the death of one single Jewish boy due to metzitzah b’peh, a possible fatal, bastardized version procedure of an already set Jewish tradition, the bris milah, that is not a life saving medical procedure...

"metzitzah b’peh is an old Religious tradition!, you antiSemite!"... So is FGM (Female genital mutilation), and just as bloody, historical backwards, equally fatal, and "rarely reported as such" by their "mohelim".

May G-d granted our wishes for you knuckle dragging troglodytes to have 0.0024% of developing a brain, or 0.0001 of developing a conscience.

Extremist religious zealot apologists.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: Deremes
"Before the law of seat belts how many people got killed that the law had to be put in place?."

Deremes,... just... sit there, and look mentally underdeveloped, instead of typing and dispelling all doubts.

You illogical, hyperbolic, drama queen ("Consent forms are the next Final Solution!").

Putz.

[Turd Degree]

The hareidim are hoping the MBP issue will eventually, err, blow over.

[David]

Bahbahboooey

Posted by: baba boooey | September 11, 2012 at 04:16 PM

Argued like a true frumma with a typical grade three education.

[PrettyBoyFloyd]

Interestingly, with all the danger MBP causes, you'd think more people would be commenting here against it's practice, yet, all we see are the same 5 (including Shmarya) jerkoffs who allways comment negatively on Jewish matters.

So what the fuck is new?

[jancsibacsi]

Bob Guthrie -Deremes is the direct result of the hassidishe way of learning toireh,the end result it tottal retardation of how the world operates,no science no math no brains

[jancsibacsi]

PrettyBoyFloyd-BOy youre one ugly dude and dummb as a dorbell,

[Bob Guthrie]

About BHIRPS and HPSR,...

The problem with these possible terms is that they lack the phonetically spark to become an idea, behavior or style that spreads from person to person within a culture,... A meme.

You need something in culture that is common to the general people, like independence (YOLO), or known themes or icons. Since metzitzah b’peh is in the realm of the absurd, we could grab, let us say, a comedy icon or icons,... Three Stooges, Laurel and Hardy?.

Ah!. Marx Brothers. Silly with sillier, laughable antics and rituals. Now, let's select one. Harpo, mayhap. Silent, makes funny, wacky faces,... Now add a "religious white" or "religious egg shell" colored garb, a beard, and a p*nis sucking expression: http://goo.gl/ERhcm!.

Good!, now we have know, recognizable, marketable visual icon. Now lets work on the selling motto, word or phrase. What do we have?. Well, his name (Harpo). A little marketing, idea development, and focus groups, and we come up with: "Harpos"!.

*"HAredim Ravs (for) Penis Oral Suction!".

Now to to tie it to metzitzah b’peh (MBP) in a phrase. Hmm. Ha!:

"What's the topic?". "Oh, just them Harpos Munching on Baby Penises again."

Presto. Run it through BA, get UMG to approve, release initial funds, and start marketing rollout.

(Get some "extremist Charedim Rebbe" plush prototypes from China or HK. Maybe with a pull cord plus sound chip with preset sounds:

*"metzitzah b’peh never killed a baby!".
*"0.0001%, 0.0001%, 0.0001%!".
*"Consent forms equal Gas Chambers!".
*"Sue!, sue!, sue!".
*[...]. Refuses to answer).

Brand, tag, and ship. Welcome to Marketing for the masses 101. It's a wrap.

(The following was a commercial satire by:
The Bubbe Multimedia Group(tm)
(Moe, Larry, Curly, CEOs)
Where our motto is: "F*ck them if they can't take a joke".)

[Deremes]

Janci,you are the best.
Tell us a bit about your knowledge in science and math lol.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: PrettyBoyFloyd
"So what the fuck is new?."

Not you, baby. Same old the f*ck tired posts that juuust keeps coming back, just a like a bad plate of beans.

Now go out and play pretend "Intelligent Human Being". Here's you propeller topped shtreimel beanie. =)

(*Head pat*) Have fun!. ^.^

[Barry]

Deremes - I am shocked by your Apikorsus! You will need to swing an ostrich over your head for Kaporos on erev Yom Kippur.

Your repeated claim that suction CAUSES an additional 11 in 43,000 deaths in babies DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS Rav Papa who states that suction SAVES a significant numbers of children from death!

Who are you to contradict (Rachmana Lezlan, Challila ve Chas, Bababooooey) an Amorah such as Rav Papa on whom the Halacha is based!!

You are REQUIRED TO BELIEVE that there is a significant higher mortality rate among the gentile babies who are not suctioned by doctors (when circumcised routinely in US Hospitals), than among Jewish babies suctioned by Mohellim and the fact that this is not reported is due either to incompetence on the part of the authorities or is deliberate cover rooted in antisemitism.

Should the Agudah put forward any argument to the court which in anyway contradicts Rav Papa, the Chillul Hashem may cause an earthquake!

The Maharam Shick believed that Galen view of anatomy and blood was correct whilst Bloomberg follows the ideas of Andreaus Versalius and William Harvey. Bloomberg is an idiot so if follows that Versalius and Harvey must be wrong.

[SkepticalYid]

Posted by: Deremes | September 11, 2012 at 05:46 PM

You really have no right to laugh at Jansci. My specialty does qualify me as an expert on this issue, medically speaking. Yet you constantly try to rebut my statements with fairy tales.

[Bob Guthrie]

Deremes.

Okay, let's see if this gets through that hatichat harah brain of yours:

You justify even one single infant death by metzitzah b’peh on a Religious and Traditional law set by mortals.

Would you vouch that G-d himself would justify the death of a single one of his children due to metzitzah b’peh?.

Not his passed upon down wisdom on bris milah, but the human reinterpretation of it, metzitzah b’peh.

(Let's see if you have the cojones to answer to it without turning it into a Holocaust argument).

[Bob Guthrie]

If they get a Jewish Johnny Cochran, NYC is screwed:

"If it's only 0.0024 per cent, you must relent."

...

"Agudah is reportedly trying to find a New York law firm to work pro bono or on “a reduced rate basis." Weren't their own lawyers available to do so, or did they have a massive, collective laughter induced stroke after they were asked to do the same?.

[George Walker]

best headline ever

[jancsibacsi]

Deremes-You proved me right how can i talk science with someone who is ignorant of science i assure you i know much much more about science since from a young age i read many books and magazines on science not like the hassidim to whom science is the enemy,genig gezugt.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

http://gothamist.com/2012/09/02/penis-sucking_mohels_fight_citys_ev.php

http://community.allhiphop.com/discussion/477711/penis-sucking-mohels-fight-citys-evil-decree-to-inform-parents-
about-circumcision-ritual

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120301035235AADGwON

[Doggies.]

When will police arrest mohels for pedophilia for this??

[dh]

Never

[Yochanan Lavie]

Apologies to the Supremes:

Oy baby love, my baby love
I need it, oy how I need it
But the mayor says it's bad
Break the law, make Bloomie mad
Tell me, what did I do wrong
To wanna clip a baby's schlong

'Cause baby love, my baby love
Been brissing ya, miss kissing ya
Instead of breaking laws
Let's do ass kissing and making laws
Don't throw our votes away
'Cause, politicians, we might stray
Need us, need us
Baby love, oy, baby love

Baby love, my baby love
Why must we wear a sterile glove?
All of the Torah through
If you wanna be a proper Jew
We gotta do it like we do
I get this need

Oy vey, need to cut you,
Your foreskin, my love
Feel your warm special place, my love
Let's throw our gloves away

Please don't do it that way
Not happy like I used to be
A pipette is no fun indeed
My love, my baby love

I need Jews, oy how I need Jews
Why we do it like we do
That's how it was in Poland, too
In the days of [Moshe] Rabbeinu

Baby, baby, oy 'til it's hurtin' me
'Til it's hurtin' me
Oy, baby love

Let's throw our gloves away (2x)

[dh]

YL, you are the best kept secret of the music world.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, DH. I am a legend in my own mind :)

[Eli, what me messiah?]

YL, great!
"Let's throw our gloves away..."

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks Eli. Shanah tovah.

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar
"http://gothamist.com/2012/09/02/penis-sucking_mohels_fight_citys_ev.php."

Love some of the US and UK general population comments:

"Wait! So after the priest cuts the foreskin he sucks blood from the penis? And parents are all for this?"
"What do they do to female babies?"
"What in G-ds name is this type of fuckery?.".

The Charedi umbrella organization Agudath Israel of America wants to sue New York City. Publicly. Go for it, Bros:

*"We won't stop metzitzah b’peh!."
*"We won't use glass pipettes!."
*"We won't use sterile surgical gloves!."
*"We won't allow parents to sign waivers warning them about the possible dangers of metzitzah b’peh!."
*"And now we will publicly announce that we will sue NYC for trying to stop us for metzitzah b’peh!."
"..."
*"Why is everybody looking at us funny?."
*"No, it's not a P*nis-Sucking Circumcision Ritual!."
*"Well, it's, but it's not,..."
*"No, we are not F*ggots!."
*"No, I don't perform the P*nis-Sucking Circumcision Ritual!."
*"Our mohels do the p*nis sucking..."
*"I mean, NO!. They suction off the blood from the baby's organ..."
*"It's not p*nis sucking!."
...

Ah, the harsh light of public scrutiny. >=)

[Bob Guthrie]

Liveleak (via YouTube, via Reddit.com), 5 days ago:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6c0_1346871628

[Dovit]

similar to other voluntary procedures that have a similar risk factor and parents are allowed to put their children though it .
---------

Yes, and for which parents have to sign informed consent forms.

[MarkfromShortHills]

YL, I do not know how you do it. I have circulated your parody and everyone who has seen it just collapses with laughter. Thank you.

[No Light]

Congratulations idiots! It's in UK newspapers now.

Bravo, keep kicking up a stink about the right to munch baby penis, spread knowledge of it far and wide! You. could have agreed to the forms and not even used them, it's not like you heed goyishe laws anyway. But, in the words of one of my favourite comedy duos, "You wouldn't let it lie".

Some interesting papers here, about neonatal HSV. Featuring generalised and HSPR specific info.

The stuff about the sequelae is not happy reading at all.

http://www.isrn.com/journals/id/2013/473053/

http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/15286266/reload=0;jsessionid=kAOMM9B1kHYI47la24SZ.16

[WoolSilkCotton]

YL, amazing as always.

[Eli, what me messiah?]

I hope Shmarya is keeping track of these YL classics. I'd love to see a reissue, maybe as a channukah/kwanzi/new year fundraiser for FM.
I'd donate a $million for a copy if I had that much cash. But I don't, so $25 seems a fair price.

[PrettyBoyFloyd]

Janci go choke on a turd, di Satmarer Chaye

[Bob Guthrie]

Posted by: PrettyBoyFloyd
"Janci go..."

Pretty, keep up dear, we have already moved on to more active articles.

Slow putz.

[David]

It beggars belief that a group could go to a court to argue to maintain this "right".

[Baruch Bikini]

Doggies I want to know the same thing. How the fukkk is this not child sexual abuse?? Where is the law? I am disgusted by these animals who claim a religious right to do this despicable suction!!

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, Mark, WSC.