Rabbi Shlomo Aviner On Metzitzah B'Peh

Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, who is a leading Zionist Orthodox rabbi in Israel, gives one of his (in)famous text message halakhic rulings – this time about metzitzah b'peh, the direct mouth-to-bleeding-penis suction done by (mostly) haredi mohels immediately after removing a baby's foreskin. The practice has been linked to deaths of several babies, permanent severe brain damage in several others, serious infection in others, and the very real fear that hundreds of babies have suffered milder forms of brain injury that cause learning disabilities.

Rabbi Shlomo Aviner

The following halakhic ruling is one of several text message sha'alot u' teshuvot, halakhic questions and answers communicated by texting, featured on Rabbi Shlomo Aviner's website this month:

Metzitzah during Brit Milah

Q: Should one perform Metzitzah during a Brit Milah directly with one's mouth or through the aid of a glass tube, since there have been cases of babies becoming infected by the Mohel?

A: It is permissible to do so directly. Only in extremely rare cases do babies become infected, more infrequently than someone being run over by a car while walking on the sidewalk.  And we should obviously be concerned that the Mohel remains healthy.  Shut Da'at Cohain #140.  But it is also permissible to do so with a glass tube.  Ibid. #141-142

Shu"t Da'at Cohain is a volume of rabbinic responsa – halakhic questions posed to a rabbi and his answers, (known as teshuvot or responsa) to those questions – written by Rabbi Avraham Yitzchak HaKohen Kook, the first Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Palestine, who died in 1935.

Aviner is wrong about the statistics and wrong about the frequency of disease transmission.

This may be because he has not seen the newer evidence. It could also be because evidence of disease transmission through metzitzah b'peh in Israel is partially occluded because many cases enter the medical system through haredi-controlled hospitals and haredi or Orthodox doctors. And that can mean that cases are mislabeled as something else, not reported, or treated outside the normal medical infrastructure. Israel's Minister of Health, Yaakov Litzman, is a Gerrer hasid and has been known to cook the books in other areas in ways that favor haredi rabbinic leaders but violate Israeli law or the intent of the law.

Aviner should know better.

He should also know that if it is "permissible" to use a sterile glass tube, then metzitzah b'peh done by direct oral to genital contact cannot be an absolute requirement as part of the mitzvah of circumcision.

Therefore, even 'minor' threats to life would be enough to require under halakha, Jewish law, that a glass tube be used instead.

Aviner's ruling could be viewed as an example of a ruling issued to benefit a political cause or other issue rather than for the benefit and protection of the actual individual who has asked the question – or, in this case, for the helpless vulnerable infant who is unable to ask, and whose life Aviner has now put at risk.

Comments

[Sarek]

Again the vast medical knowledge of the rabbis is put on display.

Rabbi Aviner, meet Rep. Akin of Missouri.

[Garnel Ironheart]

> Aviner is wrong about the statistics and wrong about the frequency of disease transmission.

No, I don't think so. I think car accidents involving pedestrians in Israel is a LOT more common than babies contracting HSV (herpes) from infected mohels. I'm not downplaying the risk of disease contraction, mind you, and I suport metzitzah b'tzinor but still I think car accidents are far more common.

And if you read the wording of the teshuvah correctly you'll see that Rav Aviner isn't suggesting what you say he is. For one thing, he says "it's permissible" when it comes to MBP. Not "advisable" or "this is the way to do it best" but permissible which means if some idiot parent insists on it then he isn't contravening halacha. It does not imply the support for MBP you say it does.

[Number don't lie]

What statistics are you taking about ? The CDC report, that has the rate of serious injury at 1 out of 10,000. Or your theory that some injuries are never detected but cause learning disabilities etc. I think that in past five years not a single case went undetected, every Jewish child hospitalized in NYC gets harassed by nurses and doctors double checking in they can blame metzitzah b'peh.

Stop with your assumptions and bring hard numbers
(after you finish calling me deaf dumb and blind please provide us with hard numbers of what percentage of children were injured)

[seymour]

the car example is stupid one must walk around but MP can be avoided

[Alter Kocker]

Let them infect the entire Haredi bunch, even if it results in brain damage. When a gadol's grandchild or greatgrandchild is rendered developmentally delayed they will change this monstrous practice (oh wait-the whole bunch is developmentally delayed-never mind)

[Number don't lie]

Car example might be stupid, a better example would be whether or not a parent could make a decisions on a plastic surgery that might have a 0.4 percent chance of serious side effects etc.

[jancsibacsi]

I think alot of theese rebbes who are for mbp are themselfs brain damaged from mbp,or else who in their right mind would approve of such repugnant act

[Numbers don't lie]

I think the issue isn’t the risk factor it’s the old funny outdated custom where a mouth is put to an open wound, which Bloomberg just can’t stand

This is the beginning of a new era; next step will be banning Bris Mila in a synagogue…… until they will ban a parent to teach a minor one religion over a another and thereby taking away their choice of choosing their own believes when they reach adulthood.

[jancsibacsi]

Numbers don't lie -Youre beleives dont give you the right to impose youreself on others who have a different oppinion then you,its not that farfached to think that alot of theese hassidishe pedophiles are the result of the thinking that naything goes,if youre allowed to suck a babies penus then why not touch it this is the mentality of those molesters everything is connected to everything in this world as i wrote before mbp is extreemly repugnant to the civilized world and the nonjews see this behaviour it brings hate on us.

[WoolSilkCotton]

If a disease is contagious but preventable, then even one case is too much.

Look at meningococcemia. If you have a child enrolled in college, you will be told that the vaccine is mandatory, and even though the risk is low, even one case is devastating and not worth the chance.

Remember the scare a few years ago when someone put poison in Tylenol packages? Less then a dozen people were affected, even though millions of people used Tylenol, but still the company pulled it off the shelves until a full investigation could be done. If a risk is preventable, and the resultant condition of the problem is catastrophic, our society does not tolerate letting it go on.

And I'm still waiting for the NY Post headline: HASIDIC PENIS SUCKING RITUAL

[Shmarya]

What statistics are you taking about ? The CDC report, that has the rate of serious injury at 1 out of 10,000.

Please.

The CDC has it at 2.4 per 10,000 – and that is working under the assumption that every haredi boy has MBP – which is far from true.

In reality, the number is really much closer to 5 per 10,000.

And none of this takes into account under-reporting and concealment of cases by haredim, or infections that are not severe enough to require hospitalization as an infection but which nonetheless infect and remain with the baby for life.

[Numbers don't lie]

The report I read has different categories of chasidish, yeshivish, and modern orthodox and doesn't include all haredi boys as having MBP

[Numbers don't lie]

And if I remember correctly that number is the total amount of children infected not the number of children with even slight permanent damage. Can you provide the number of children with permanent damage according to the CDC report.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++The report I read has different categories of chasidish, yeshivish, and modern orthodox and doesn't include all haredi boys as having MBP++

Oh yeah, very believable, as if the CDC breaks it down into categories of relative religious insanity.

[WoolSilkCotton]

HASIDIC PENIS SUCKING RITUAL

[ah-pee-chorus]

what an ignorant fool. this is another example of just how far charedism has strayed from the halachic process. not only can it not possibly be required, since the original reason for it -health benefit- is now known to be inaccurate, but it is 100% assur. "vo'chai ba'hem" informs that even were MBP from the torah itself it wouldnt be performed if there were a danger to life. but its NOT part of the torah, and was added to protect the infant. since its clear it doesnt protect but rather adds risk, its outrageous that its even an issue under discussion.

charedism has perverted the very halachic system they claim to uphold.

[Numbers don't lie]

If a disease is contagious but preventable, then even one case is too much.

Look at meningococcemia. If you have a child enrolled in college, you will be told that the vaccine is mandatory, and even though the risk is low, even one case is devastating and not worth the chance.

Remember the scare a few years ago when someone put poison in Tylenol packages? Less then a dozen people were affected, even though millions of people used Tylenol, but still the company pulled it off the shelves until a full investigation could be done. If a risk is preventable, and the resultant condition of the problem is catastrophic, our society does not tolerate letting it go on.

And I'm still waiting for the NY Post headline: HASIDIC PENIS SUCKING RITUAL

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | August 31, 2012 at 11:26 AM

we live in a free country where a parent not the doctor has the last word whether a child gets vaccine or not you might not accept such child in collage but the parent is still the one who make the decision.

[Numbers don't lie]

what an ignorant fool. this is another example of just how far charedism has strayed from the halachic process. not only can it not possibly be required, since the original reason for it -health benefit- is now known to be inaccurate, but it is 100% assur. "vo'chai ba'hem" informs that even were MBP from the torah itself it wouldnt be performed if there were a danger to life. but its NOT part of the torah, and was added to protect the infant. since its clear it doesnt protect but rather adds risk, its outrageous that its even an issue under discussion.

charedism has perverted the very halachic system they claim to uphold.

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | August 31, 2012 at 11:52 AM

the question isn't whether the Torah allows it its whether the first amendment allows the government to dictate on such statistics.

[rebitzman]

I have had a myriad of discussion with proponents of MBP over the past few weeks. They all yell "It's the hallachah!". When asked to provide support - such as a specific citation that says it MUST be mouth to penis they yell "It's the hallachah!"

If there is a specific citation that mandates mouth to penis (and Rabbi Aviner certainly SEEMS to concede that other methods are valid)I would genuinely like to study it.

Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

[Shmarya]

The report I read has different categories of chasidish, yeshivish, and modern orthodox and doesn't include all haredi boys as having MBP

Posted by: Numbers don't lie | August 31, 2012 at 11:33 AM

Idiot.

The CDC's estimate of the number of MBP brises done in NYC every year matches Agudah's estimate.

Stop lying.

[seymour]

My frum doctor said it should be banned

[Shmarya]

And if I remember correctly that number is the total amount of children infected not the number of children with even slight permanent damage. Can you provide the number of children with permanent damage according to the CDC report.

Posted by: Numbers don't lie | August 31, 2012 at 11:39 AM

Idiot, much?

ALL of these infections are permanent, ALL allow the child to transmit to others from the moment of infection until his ultimate death 120 years (minus 8 days) later.

Three babies have died, one has permanent severe brain damage, at least seven others were hospitalized for long extended periods of time on intense intravenous antibiotics.

And, again, there are real indications that many more children suffered less severe brain damage that we see as learning disabilities.

But since almost every MBP is done on a haredi baby because almost no one who is not haredi will allow it to be done, and because haredi rabbis ordered their communities not to cooperate with the health department or with clinical studies about this, we lack statistics about this.

But, heck, why would you, a haredi hasidic troll, give a damn about the children your trolling helps maim?

[seymour]

Posted by: rebitzman | August 31, 2012 at 12:07 PM

not really neither the talmuld or the rambam mentions mouth.

I think the zohar does

[seymour]

rebitzman

download the paper on MP very informative with halacha and historical references

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CBoQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hakirah.org%2FVol%25203%2520Sprecher.pdf&rct=j&q=sprecher%20hakirah&ei=F61ZTcuJFoaitgfJlbyEDQ&usg=AFQjCNFaF45WfwoOtLhUiRg47ae-VmUOoA&sig2=mHRlRvy1YhOib2wiAjr08w&cad=rja

[rebitzman]

@Shmarya

You can add - the rabbis have bullied women into taking blame for their own baby's infections by convincing them that they gave them the virus by licking their own fingers - and touching the wound.

Nearly impossible to transmit herpes in this was.

[rebitzman]

@seymour

Ta

[jancsibacsi]

Numbers don't lie--the question isn't whether the Torah allows it its whether the first amendment allows the government to dictate on such statistics.
Youre dead wrong the question is are grownups allpwed to play god with a newborn baby,who gave you the right to do as you wishwith someones private parts,the torah is a manmade make beleive fantasy at least most of it.

[ah-pee-chorus]

the question isn't whether the Torah allows it its whether the first amendment allows the government to dictate on such statistics.

Posted by: Numbers don't lie

and we know the answer. religious freedom DOES NOT extend to putting your minor child at risk.

[ah-pee-chorus]

and religious freedom also does not permit an adult to have oral-genital contact with a minor, even if there were no health risk.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++Numbers don't lie | August 31, 2012 at 11:56 AM ++

Most colleges will not accept a student without meningococcus vaccination. Too much risk to other students. You obviously don't understand the shortcomings of herd immunity.

[Turd Degree]

I asked a hareidi friend to provide a halachic source for MBP and he said, "haven't you ever heared of 'torah sh'bal peh?'"

[jancsibacsi]

Turd Degree-Make it up as you go stuff,soon or even right now youre overwhelmed by nonsensical rules,no wonder that we have so many mentallly disturbed fanatics in our midst. shoites goilems and anarchists.

[MM]

"we live in a free country where a parent not the doctor has the last word whether a child gets vaccine or not you might not accept such child in collage but the parent is still the one who make the decision."

Since the vast majority of college freshmen are over 18, parents have absolutely no say over anything to do with their offsprings' medical treatment. If an adilt (over 18) wants to attend college, and that college requires vaccination, then the decision to comply and attend or not comply and not attend is solely the would-be student's.

My son went to MIT at age 16, and I was entitled to be informed about both his medical and academic records. After he turned 18, I was only entitled to pay the tuition bill. Parents do not have legal control over their children's lives in perpetuity, although there are certainly yentas who act as if they do.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

a fool, an ignorant and an idiot like many of his fellow rabbis.

[Drive-by Dan]

The harming of children should be universally abhorred, but it is not.

And as to people having children who are guaranteed to harm those children, all I can say is: that is how it has always been done.

Adults play god over children, including all the horrible things that one human being can do to another human being who is totally helpless to defend themselves.

There is nothing to stop them from harming their children. Nothing to protect their children from harm at all beyond a few lame laws rarely used or enforced.

[Numbers don't lie]

Read the following two posts I was responding to your post that CDC overestimated the number of children having MBP

Please.
The CDC has it at 2.4 per 10,000 – and that is working under the assumption that every haredi boy has MBP – which is far from true.
In reality, the number is really much closer to 5 per 10,000.
And none of this takes into account under-reporting and concealment of cases by haredim, or infections that are not severe enough to require hospitalization as an infection but which nonetheless infect and remain with the baby for life.
Posted by: Shmarya | August 31, 2012 at 11:28 AM

The report I read has different categories of chasidish, yeshivish, and modern orthodox and doesn't include all haredi boys as having MBP
Posted by: Numbers don't lie | August 31, 2012 at 11:33 AM
Idiot.
The CDC's estimate of the number of MBP brises done in NYC every year matches Agudah's estimate.
Stop lying.
Posted by: Shmarya | August 31, 2012 at 12:21 PM

[Numbers don't lie]

And if I remember correctly that number is the total amount of children infected not the number of children with even slight permanent damage. Can you provide the number of children with permanent damage according to the CDC report.
Posted by: Numbers don't lie | August 31, 2012 at 11:39 AM
Idiot, much?
ALL of these infections are permanent, ALL allow the child to transmit to others from the moment of infection until his ultimate death 120 years (minus 8 days) later.

How common is genital herpes?
Results of a nationally representative study show that genital herpes infection is common in the United States. Nationwide, 16.2%, or about one out of six, people 14 to 49 years of age have genital HSV-2 infection. Over the past decade, the percentage of Americans with genital herpes infection in the U.S. has remained stable.
http://www.cdc.gov/std/herpes/stdfact-herpes.htm

[WoolSilkCotton]

Numbers don't lie:

If the HASIDIC PENIS SUCKING RITUAL isn't necessary, as per this rabbi, why are you trying to defend it as somehow not being particularly harmful?

You should try having the conversation with a regular nonJewish person at your place of work. Tell him or her about the HASIDIC PENIS SUCKING RITUAL.

[Numbers don't lie]

Lets stick to the facts; according to the CDC report the percentage of a child getting infected due to MBP is 0.00024!!! that wouldn’t be a considered a factor to avoid even the most unnecessary plastic surgery by a medical professional.
You assume that the CDC doesn’t have all info and or that NYC hospitals to not report all cases when the fact is that every signal case that reached a NYC hospital in the past five years was reported and the CDC did not overestimate the number of children that had MBP.

[Numbers don't lie]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | August 31, 2012 at 04:31 PM

I’m not defending the Hasidic penis sucking ritual I’m defending the first amendment. If the mayor can successfully ban it due its unethical nature or by considering it molestation etc Im with him. I just cant take shmarya defending the mayor distortion and lies by lying.

[Shmarya]

Lets stick to the facts; according to the CDC report the percentage of a child getting infected due to MBP is 0.00024!!! that wouldn’t be a considered a factor to avoid even the most unnecessary plastic surgery by a medical professional.
You assume that the CDC doesn’t have all info and or that NYC hospitals to not report all cases when the fact is that every signal case that reached a NYC hospital in the past five years was reported and the CDC did not overestimate the number of children that had MBP.

Posted by: Numbers don't lie | August 31, 2012 at 04:33 PM

Do you realize that you're an idiot? Or are you simply lying?

You clearly either have no idea what the CDC said or how disease transmission works, or you're a liar.

Either way, you're not making sense.

As to this assertion you made: every signal case that reached a NYC hospital in the past five years was reported and the CDC did not overestimate the number of children that had MBP.not all cases made it to hospitals. Many didn't. And those are almost never reported.

You may think you're smart, and to your fellow undereducated haredim, you may even appear that way.

To the rest of us, however, you look like what you are – a fool.

[Numbers don't lie]

so is your case based on the fact that some children get sick but don't go to the hospital?

the percentage of a children getting infected due to MBP is 0.00024

And a fraction of those have permanent damage

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Numbers don't lie | August 31, 2012 at 05:12 PM

Idiot.

3 dead. 1 left severely brain damaged. 7 others hospitalized in serious condition, suffering for days with serious infection, always in danger of dying.

If you cannot process this information, if you can't understand that babies are being killed and maimed, you are an idiot.

And, again, none of this includes the cases that don't get reported.

And all cases, no matter how mild, reported or not, result in permanent infection and transmission for the life of the infected child to others.

Wrap your tiny little mind around that, shoteh.

[Numbers don't lie]

since number don't lie you are forced to use other arguments the facts are with me

16.2%, of the us population have genital HSV-2 infection.

0.00024 of a children the hade MBP were infected due to MBP is 0.00024

And a fraction of those have permanent damage

[Numbers don't lie]

Since numbers don't lie you are forced to use assumptions.

These two facts are against you

1. 16.2%, of the US population have genital HSV-2 infection.

2. 0.00024 of a children the had MBP were infected due to MBP And a fraction of those have permanent damage

make sure that all your readers are aware of these two facts

[Numbers don't lie]

536 million infected persons

Herpes simplex virus type 2 is one of the most frequent sexually transmitted infections worldwide, with global estimates of 536 million infected persons and an annual incidence of 23.6 million cases among persons aged 15 to 49 years

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Numbers don't lie | August 31, 2012 at 06:04 PM

Moron.

You don't even know the difference between a baby getting HSV-1 and an adult.

Babies have immature immune systems. HSV-1 does serious damage to babies and can kill them. That is not normally true with adults.

To say that you're an idiot is an understatement.

[Jeff]

When a gadol's grandchild or greatgrandchild is rendered developmentally delayed they will change this monstrous practice

They think child born with a disability is doing teshuvah for sins committed in a previous gilgul. Why would they change for this?

Ashkenazim are at greater risk for Tay Sachs. How many Haredi parents go in for genetic testing?

[Jeff]

This is the beginning of a new era; next step will be banning Bris Mila in a synagogue…… until they will ban a parent to teach a minor one religion over a another and thereby taking away their choice of choosing their own believes when they reach adulthood.

Posted by: Numbers don't lie | August 31, 2012 at 11:10 AM

So if a teenager started hanging around your shul and expressed an interest in becoming frum, but his parents found out about it and forbade him to see you or your rabbi - you'd respect their wishes?

[Crickets chirping].

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

In 1982, 7 people died from using Tylenol, which was found later on to have been deliberately contaminated with cyanide.
At the time, about 31 million Americans were using Tylenol.

How tiny is that percentage? And yet, the company pulled ALL Tylenol off the shelves of EVERY store in the USA until the matter could be investigated.

The scientific world, as well as all responsible government leadership, recognizes that if there is a very serious medical problem that could be prevented, even though it is relatively rare, they must act decisively to stop the problem.

SInce frumma have no background or knowledge of how science works, but they have holy rabbis who control their brains, the frumma are unable to grasp this basic fact.

And BTW, there are plenty of cases of neonatal herpes that don't get reported, because the doctors didn't think to investigate that there was a vector within the community.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

This is the beginning of a new era; next step will be banning Bris Mila in a synagogue…… until they will ban a parent to teach a minor one religion over a another and thereby taking away their choice of choosing their own believes when they reach adulthood.

This is called slippery slope fallacy

. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

[Incredulous 2]

As someone who as worked as an epidemiologist on infant deaths and auto crash loss prevention it is bizarre to me for to read disputes about rates when a disease vector is well known, some cases are known to have occurred, an alternative is available, and continuation of the practice could be condoned only in the same way that prostitutes operate legally in some medically advanced and prudent countries: From regular testing of the potential receptacles and transmitters of disease.

But, I hardly see the same people supporting the practice as offering for the safety of the infants that the mohels all agree to be tested for disease on a routine basis and place themselves at risk of losing a source of income by being designated as diseased. If infection is rare, there would be a high incidence of false positives, but the mohel would, like a sex worker, have to undergo additional testing. This is likely to happen in this population to protect the safety of infants when some already are arguing that risk is OK because it is rare? I don't think so

So, there really is no alternative than banning the practice.

[mimi]

Numbers don't lie,

Any risk is an unacceptable risk because the procedure can be done in a much safer way. Three babies (at least) died for what, exactly?

I agree with you, incredulous.I doubt these people would let a strange doctor or nurse lick a wound clean at hospital, yet for a baby it's OK?

[Numbers don't lie]

Worldwide rates of HSV infection are between 65% and 90%.[2] HSV1 is more common than HSV2 with rates of both increasing as people age.[2] Rates of infection are determined by the presence of antibodies against either viral species.[68]
An estimated 536 million people worldwide were infected with HSV-2 in 2003, with the highest rates in sub-Saharan Africa and the lowest rates in western Europe.[69]
In the US, 57.7% of the population is infected with HSV-1[70] and 16.2% are infected with HSV-2. Among those HSV-2 seropositive, only 18.9% were aware that they were infected.[71] During 2005–2008, the prevalence of HSV-2 was 39.2% in blacks and 20.9% in women.[72]

[Shmarya]

Idiot.

As I told you before, HSV-1 can be lethal for babies and it can cause brain damage and other permanent problems.

Adults who get HSV-1 don't face this risk because they have developed immune systems – babies do not.

If you can't process this simple information, you need psychiatric help.

[Numbers don't lie]

ALL of these infections are permanent, ALL allow the child to transmit to others from the moment of infection until his ultimate death 120 years (minus 8 days) later.

Posted by: Shmarya | August 31, 2012 at 12:29 PM

In the US, 57.7% of the population is infected with HSV-1

So now the issue is no longer about having it until 120 its only about babies?

[Shmarya]

You are, perhaps, one of the most idiotic people I've ever dealt with, a shoteh gamur vadai.

[Numbers don't lie]

Do you have case study to back your theory that even where no permanent injuries were detected HSV-1 causes learning disabilities?

After reading all your theory's and assumption its pretty clear that even you understand, the CDC report did not find a smoking gun!

The numbers do not support their actions. As Jew you can complain as a government agency you keep your mouth shut until you find a smoking gun.

[Shmarya]

Do you have case study to back your theory that even where no permanent injuries were detected HSV-1 causes learning disabilities?

A case study?

Moron.

I have doctors who think it likely, Rabbi Dr. Moshe Tendler thinks it is very likely. But there is no way to do a case study for something like this. It would take a decade or more.

There is enough evidence that MbP kills and maims already.

[Numbers don't lie]

Posted by: Shmarya | August 31, 2012 at 05:22 PM

3 dead. 1 left severely brain damaged. 7 others hospitalized in serious condition, suffering for days with serious infection,
"always in danger of dying".

NOT TRUE
57.7% of the population is infected with HSV-1 and most of those kids are no longer infants

And, again, none of this includes the cases that don't get reported.
STOP WITH ASSUMPTIONS

A governmental agency can't act on assumptions.

Now stick to the proven facts.

1. In the US, 57.7% of the population is infected with HSV-1.

16.2%, of the US population have genital HSV-2 infection.

2. 0.00024 of a children the had MBP were infected due to MBP And a fraction of those have permanent damage

[Shmarya]

Moron.

Almost every person in the US with HSV-1 got it as an ADULT or a teen.

Shoteh.

[Numbers don't lie]

you still have not explained why the government has a right to get involved in a religious matter if there is only a 0.00024 chance of getting infected (not permanent damage).

[Shmarya]

Please.

Babies get sick and die from MbP-transmitted illness.

MbP is not d'orita.

Even those few who hold that metzitzah might be a part of the mitzvah as well as a health measure do not hold that metzitzah is "b'peh."

MbP is a custom, and from time immemorial, Jews have pushed off customs (and halakhot) when there is threat to life (see the Hatam Sofer on this, for example).

Pastt hat, government has the right and the responsibility to protect children and other people who are vulnerable and who cannot speak for themselves.

In what passes for your mind, three dead babies and one with brain damage in 11 years isn't enough to stop MbP.

Thankfully, normal people understand – just as normative halakha understands – that we do not subject the vulnerable to unnecessary risk.

You want to suck babies' bleeding penises to "heal" them?

Then move somewhere else.

[Bruised-Spring Stein]

I've had herpes transmitted to me during my circumcision. Problem with Herpes is it's dormant and it can take years (even decades) before an eruption. Imagine the shame I felt when I had my first outbreak. I didn't understand at the time what it was and where it came from.

When the doctor saw it and told me it was herpes I was in shock. He asked me if I had a girlfriend. I told him I was married. He asked me again, with a grin. I felt so bad. My wife was waiting outside. You can't imagine the pain of being suspected of such behavior...

I'm ashamed to ask my parents for details of what happened at my bris more than 30 years ago. I started to "look into" the issue and that's when I found out I had stitches there too. At first I thought I had some defect or wtvr but then it was clear that it really was a considerable amount of stitch marks.

What happened really I'll never know. Bottom line, when these MBP stories came out my wife finally started paying attention to the case I was trying to defend.

Meanwhile I've had to cope with guilt, paranoia, anxiety... for what? Imagine my wife had left me and divorced on some false assumption?

Here's my halachic ruling below.

MBP: Rashei Tevot "Must Be Prohibited".

Shavoua Tov & Shana Tova to all. I think this site is great if people write "constructive" comments that can actually help others.

[Numbers don't lie]

It’s not the government who decides how important a d'orita, custom, drabanan or even a bad dream of god telling me that penises heals while being sucked.
Past that even if there is a risk factor if its only a 0.00024 chance of getting infected and a 0.00005 chance of dying the government should stay out the same way they wouldn’t tell a parent not to do a plastic surgery on the small toe of the foot of a infant even when the risk factor would be triple that amount

[Numbers don't lie]

Shmarya, when you are wrong you can admit it.

I also don't like MPB that still doesn't give Bloomberg the right to dictate others.

He stole the election by extending the term limits (then changed it again), banned smoking with crazy taxes, banned trans fat, is trying to ban soda, is trying to ban MPB, made the building department crazy, filling up city bank accounts with unfair tickets.

Time to free NYC from our VLADIMIR PUTIN thank god we don't live in Russia and there a limit how far he can go.

[Shmarya]

Idiot.

MBP kills babies and maims babies.

Bloomberg may be an ass, but that does not change those facts.

As for you, a piece of shit who ready to sacrifice the lives and health of other people's babies to make your political points, I hope you suffer and then rot in hell.

[Numbers don't lie]

If you think you will scare me with curses or hell you have a big mistake climb down from your big latter and learn to admit when you make a mistake

[Shmarya]

Idiot.

I'm not trying to scare you.

I'm simply wishing that you suffer at least as much as the babies you fry to sacrifice.

Rot in hell.

[Jeff]

If you think you will scare me with curses or hell you have a big mistake climb down from your big latter and learn to admit when you make a mistake

Yeah, you're so courageous. Meanwhile, you didn't answer my question.

[jancsibacsi]

Numbers don't lie-But you do.

[dh]

Um, numbers are numbers human beings utilize. They can no more lie than your display of yours in your address can cry if you hit them. People, on the other hand, invented lying.

[Numbers don't lie]

Posted by: Jeff | September 02, 2012 at 05:07 PM

I don't believe in missionary activities even on adults let alone teenagers or young boys.

[WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar]

Numbers,

For somebody who "doesn't like MBP", you sure put an awful lot of time and energy here into defending it. And why? Because of some nonsense about Bloomberg, traffic tickets, soda?

[dh]

dh @ 6:57

What, are you high?

dh

[Numbers don't lie]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton, rock star and sports superstar | September 02, 2012 at 08:50 PM

Because Aviner is right about the statistics and Shmarya is wrong i will keep on writing until Shmarya admits that he was wrong. Perhaps he is incapable of admiting a mistake.

I just cant take Shmarya's arrogance and the governments false pretext to get involved. It wouldn't bother me if its outlawed due to child molestation laws indecent act etc. Or if new statistics show that the numbers are higher than previously thought.

PS. I think its time for Shmarya to take some anger management classes and stop attacking those who disagree with him by calling them name etc.

[Jeff]

I don't believe in missionary activities even on adults let alone teenagers or young boys.

But what if the boy really wanted to be frum? Would you refuse to abet him if the parents made it clear they were opposed to it?

[Keep up with your hatred]

Posted by: Jeff | September 03, 2012 at 07:33 AM

I would try to explain him that since thing are so unclear he is better off staying were he is and not changing his lifestyle if he insists, depending on his age if he is 17+ I wouldn't throw him out

[Numbers don't lie]

Posted by: Jeff | September 03, 2012 at 07:33 AM

I would try to explain him that since thing are so unclear he is better off staying were he is and not changing his lifestyle if he insists, depending on his age if he is 17+ I wouldn't throw him out.

Sorry I used Keep up with your hatred by mistake

[Jeff]

Well, 17 is still an adolescent (in today's world, a kid in his twenties is still an adolescent) - but fair enough.

(Although to be clear, I agree with Shmarya.)

[Numbers don't lie]

You agree with Shmarya on what?

Shmarya wrote that "Aviner is wrong about the statistics and wrong about the frequency of disease transmission"

Do you think that 0.00024 isn't extremely rare even if it would be 3 times that amount it would still be extremely rare.

Its time for Shmarya to change - and learn to admit mistakes, become an fair and honest reporter and last but no least learn how deal with his anger and arrogance and stop name calling and cursing.